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AquilaChrysaetos

The Atheist Moral Argument

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That doesn't surprise me, there isn't much that religions don't cover...It would be interesting to know if a similar sentence/passage exists in the Torah. or was that the first time we see it, I personally feel the concept is far older than any monotheistic religion.

You're right, I don't know about the Torah but I'm pretty sure Buddhism covers the same concept.

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You're right, I don't know about the Torah but I'm pretty sure Buddhism covers the same concept.

Karma ?

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Karma ?

Exactly.

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Well then we've moved from Havoc's, 'how loving of you', to, 'how humble of you', sarcasm intended. I don't see this as much of an improvement.

Human mind is such a mysterious thing that is prone to malfunction. Seriously, hasn't he been adviced to get help?

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As for notforgotten, I did a quick research and it's rather ugly. I dont wanna get modded so I will leave it to you guys. Due to the nature of this community it's a very sensitive issue. Remember that he sees angels and demons.

And as for me, uncle sam covers my sorry behind for my meager service to this chaotic nation.

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No matter how morbid the thought, if it were true, then that would mean that there is no such thing as absolute morality.

Wrong on all counts.

Morality has survival value. It contributes to the well-being and viability of a population. Populations that develop moral behavior are thus more likely to survive and produce offspring than those that aren't. Thus, morality is a product of evolution and occurs as readily as any other genetically-determined trait, like brown hair or blue eyes. The existence of morality is irrelevant to the existence of god.

And that is a very human-centered thing - in other words, it is humanism which some people equate with atheism.

Sorry, but if you argue morality, humanism wins. And that without even mentioning religion's short-comings in the morality department.

Doug

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My comment concerning facts was in response to Aquila saying that atheists should just stick to the facts, not that morality or ethics are facts (which they are, they're just not absolute). It is just noting that theists by the same measure certainly do not just stick to the facts so I see no reason for this admonition to go just one way.

I don't buy this argument. I have little problem with God condemning non-believers to actual death, my problem is with eternal torment. For those who believe in that, God has condemned the non-saved, he is the one who set up the effect of every cause. He is the one who says that hell is the punishment for non-believers, no one else did that, and he allows hell to exist in the first place. If I put you in a room in the center of a house and fill the rest of the house with poisonous gas and instruct you that if you leave this room you will die but you'll be fine as long as you stay in the room, would your death be purely a result of you 'condemning yourself' if you decided to leave this room? You would be responsible for your ultimate destiny, and I am blameless? After all, I didn't take away your free will at all.

And unfortunately in the case of eternal torment, he has established an outcome that, to me, is the exact opposite of the morality he has supposedly written in the hearts of everyone. Feel free to make a case for something you believe is more evil and unloving than eternal torment. Many of us lowly humans treat domesticated animals better than that.

I dont believe the bible literally but the bible is quite clear. There IS no eternal torture. There is a choce between eternal life of body and soul and a final death of body and soul. The rest is a particular catholic construction and is not biblically based. So the god of the bible actually says, "Believe in me and have eternal life Do not beolieve in me and die "God actually says " The wages of sin are death" Nothing more. God also promises that all si will be removed from the universe. That can't be done if sinners are eternally existing in "hell"

So, for me, the theology of christianity as expressed in the bible makes a promise of eternal life for ALL who believe. Now we all die. That promise of life after death (true or not) is the foundation stone of christianity. At easter it is particularly symobolised in the physical death and ressurection of christ (in christain faith/belief)

But suppose you do believe in hell. Not one human has to go there. God has already forgiven every human being their original sin and wil forgive any transgression we ask him to if we are sincere. Again, it is entirely our choice as to whether we go to hell, supposing such a place does exist. NO one has to go there if they live a life which wont send them there, and every human is capable of living such a life using christslife and teachings as a template. Because we are human god forgives our human weakness but if we choose to do wrong then we cop the consequences( in life and natural consequence and in god's system of justice)

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Posted (edited)

Wrong on all counts.

Morality has survival value. It contributes to the well-being and viability of a population. Populations that develop moral behavior are thus more likely to survive and produce offspring than those that aren't. Thus, morality is a product of evolution and occurs as readily as any other genetically-determined trait, like brown hair or blue eyes. The existence of morality is irrelevant to the existence of god.

And that is a very human-centered thing - in other words, it is humanism which some people equate with atheism.

Sorry, but if you argue morality, humanism wins. And that without even mentioning religion's short-comings in the morality department.

Doug

This is incorrect. Despite the arguments of some behaviouralists, morality is NOT a direct product of evolution. Morality is a human linguistic and intellectual construct, deriving form our abilty to think and speak in symbolic/abstract structures and to know cause and effect and consequence over time.

So morality can only exist as a conscious choice. It requires understanding of cause and effect and an abilty to chose from a range of choices. A mother lion caring for her baby is not exercising a moral choice but a human parent doing the same thing IS, because she can(and sometimes does) chose to abandon her baby while knowing the consquences.

Morality may NOT have survival value. It may even be counter to surviva. It is based on human beliefs and perceptions not biological realities While some human BEHAVIOURS are driven by biological , social and environmental imperatives, morality is not. It has to be consciously construced on a reasoned basis based on our beliefs and values Thus there Is no belief based morality or ethical systems in the animal world outside of self aware and sapient beings. Remove humans from the solar system and ethics and morality would cease to exist within it. A dandelion has no morals or ethics. Neither does a great ape or a lion or a rabbit, a dog or a cat. They have evolved, and learned or socialised, behaviours. Evolution and learned behabviour can make some of those behaviours beneficial to the animal and even to its species, but that does not constitute morality .

The idea that natural evolved behaviour are necessarily moral, ethical, or good for us, is very wrong and very dangerous to us as, urban densely populated and highly technological beings. We are evoved to recognise and feel emapthy for less than 100 other individuals. That is a counter productive trait in modern society. We are evolved to eat all we can do when food is available. Alos counter productive in modern lifewhen foosd is always available. We are evolved to a fight or flight mecahanism when thinking and logical response, as well as reasoned discussion is a far more productive and less dangerous choice in modern society. We are evolved to live only as long as we are viable breeders. Good luck on developing moralities based around that trait.

Here is one moral /ethical POV that only a human can adopt, and act upon .

"It would be better for the world if humans were wiped out, because we may otherwise destroy ALL life on earth including ourselves. So the most moral and ethical thing for humanity to do is eliminate itself"

Edited by Mr Walker
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According to the Atheist / Materialist doctrine, all that exists is the material world. There is no God, Spirits, or a Spiritual Realm. We all just happened to randomly happen into existance, and therefore all we are are random mixtures of chemicals and electrical signals in the brain.

That is basically that, we are not special, just because some fanatic in church/temple tells you so doesnt mean it is real. But at the end it all comes down to ones acceptance to stuff they sell.

My opinion is we really are lucky not so many planets can support life and with such specific string of events that we are here.

Dont you think that if god was ever real he might intervene in many horrific events that took place in course of hes known biblical existence?

In other words if such things as god would exists world would be much different place.

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Karma ?

Karma does not exsist never has never will. All it is, is a falacy that those who have done wrong will have done wrong onto them. Those that believe in Karma default as just as it`s only used as a personal type of revenge and hoping ill will. Using Karma as some means of some imagined justice is like pointing a gun at your own head and saying I`ll show you.

Karma is left for those that hope nasty crap happens to those that wronged them so be warned believing in Karma could only come back to harm you for even believing in it.

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Morality has no definition but the time and culture one lives in. It`s a current that changes with time like a river.

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Posted (edited)

I think what has been missed here is that you need God to be good in the afterlife. A 1/3 of the angels fell and are now wicked demons in the afterlife. Evil spirits are demons (fallen angels) and humans (fallen) without God and they are all in hell. It's hell to be without God. The angelic and human condition is that we are evil and wicked without our creator in the afterlife. So, you people that think about moral conditions in this life time, need to think about all of eternity in the afterlife as an immortal.because being an evil spirit in hell is our demise without God! An atheist or agnostic lies about their creator. How could you be good when you are lying about the one that created you? Jesus said that the devil was a liar and a murderer right from the very beginning. Don't be a fool and think that you are not the devil without God because in the end you will be evil for all of eternity shackled to those of power in the evil kingdom. Don't you see what God is doing here - trying to keep you from being evil in the afterlife as well as in this world. And you can thank Jesus that you don't have to be the devil in the afterlife!

Hell was an invention created by Christians. The word that hell is translated from in the Hebrew text is better translated as uncertainty, or the unknown. The Jewish people themselves don't believe in such a thing. Also, disbelief isn't lying, what absurdity is that? And well, quite frankly, if the description given to God by his current followers is anything like he really is than he is pretty immoral. Torturing people because someone dared you to? Really? Sounds like a psychopath to me. Sad thing is how tightly people cling to religion, even though they have no apparent idea about what half of it means.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Notice no mention of the Good soul, or the saved soul, or even the Jewish soul.

Edited by awest

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I think what has been missed here is that you need God to be good in the afterlife. A 1/3 of the angels fell and are now wicked demons in the afterlife. Evil spirits are demons (fallen angels) and humans (fallen) without God and they are all in hell. It's hell to be without God. The angelic and human condition is that we are evil and wicked without our creator in the afterlife. So, you people that think about moral conditions in this life time, need to think about all of eternity in the afterlife as an immortal.because being an evil spirit in hell is our demise without God! An atheist or agnostic lies about their creator. How could you be good when you are lying about the one that created you? Jesus said that the devil was a liar and a murderer right from the very beginning. Don't be a fool and think that you are not the devil without God because in the end you will be evil for all of eternity shackled to those of power in the evil kingdom. Don't you see what God is doing here - trying to keep you from being evil in the afterlife as well as in this world. And you can thank Jesus that you don't have to be the devil in the afterlife!

The liar is the one trying to pass this archaic mythology off as truth.

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Posted (edited)

edit becuase I messed up

Edited by awest

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Posted (edited)

Sigh...well time for bed if I can't even operate a forum post correctly. Night all and happy debating.

Edited by awest

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Morality has no definition but the time and culture one lives in. It`s a current that changes with time like a river.

That is the morality as defined by your conscience, which you learned from your culture as a child. It is usually but not always okay.I think that it is not hard to develop a more rational, more univeral, morality derived from the principles of compassion and human equality.

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Posted (edited)

That is the morality as defined by your conscience, which you learned from your culture as a child. It is usually but not always okay.I think that it is not hard to develop a more rational, more univeral, morality derived from the principles of compassion and human equality.

To be honest as a child I was told Russians were our enemy then discovered they were my allie during both world wars. I disliked them did not trust them as with many other nations. Then the internet and actual comunication could be established with out the layers of propaganda. Veitnam as a young teen I often wished I was old enough to join the us marines as over 10000 Canadians did. Now I see how wrong my thinking was. I think we are more a moral species now vs then in just 30 years of an invention called the internet. I can know voice what I think and use a library never befor in human history has had access to. Information makes me a more moral person.

Human equality has never been greater than today as we now have the power to speak as a unit. People have finaly figured out for the most part we were just canon fodder. No more.

Edited by The Silver Thong
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Morality is not deffined by a personal conscience. It`s deffined by what you have been conditioned to. No god required to know what one tribe needs over another as that would determine personal morality as you said and aggreed with me in a way

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The liar is the one trying to pass this archaic mythology off as truth.

You are preaching to the totally wrong guy.

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You are preaching to the totally wrong guy.

No he quoted the right guy in his post ;)

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Sigh back at you. Some humans ATTRIBUTE their own intellectual morality to animals They anthropomorphise the animlas behaviour as human. But an animal or indeed an artificial intelligence, cannot posses moralities unless they are aware of the conceptt and can chose moral behaviour.

Bbehaviour IS NOT moral unl\ess it is chosen with purpose.

I said that some behaviouralists misinterpret this and others misunderstand it. Some want to redifine the term moralities to include behaviours driven by biological and enveronmental imperatives but you cant actully do tha tand get away with it. Such people from wah ti can research , tend to be reacting to the american creationist movement, and responding that our behaviours are ALL a product of evolution Unfortunatley when it comes to intellectual constructs like morality or ethics this aint so while our organic brains are a product of evolution our mentla capacities are self sustaining and innovative and NOT directly resultant from evolutionary forces. We learn and adapt, for example

. Our behaviours as humans have two levels. Like other animals we have unconscious behaviours evolved genetically/biologically and through learned socialisation. eg picking each others nits or group bonding rituals We also have evolved social emapthy for our own group of about 70 human beings,

. BUT human morality is based on reason, rationality, choice and purpose, which other animals cannot concpetualise verbalise commuincate ot act upon. I can act altruistically with conscious understanding and intent, to a person 5000 kilometers away from me because i choose to, based on beliefs, values, intellectual reason, and rational thought

No other animals can form those concepts, understand them or act on them with conscious intent.

Scientists KNOW this is so because of their study of animal language and also of their neurological abilities. All that scientists are saying is this..... That some animlas display behaviours which, in humans, we might understand are based on human moralities. Second, that there are some behaviours with the same appearance and outcome as those driven by human morality in MANY animals including humans, because of the common evolutionary benefits from them.

But humans ARE NOT resoricted by, or limited to, our evolved reactions and responses In ANYTHING, and havent been for over 50000 years and probably at least 100000 years. Since that time when we reched our current level of slef awarenes and language capabilities, we choose values, beliefs, and moralities, based on our sapient self awareness and our linguistic and mental capabilities. And unless a belief or an action is chosen with informed knowledge, it is not, and cannot be, a moral act or an ethical act.

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Posted (edited)

That is basically that, we are not special, just because some fanatic in church/temple tells you so doesnt mean it is real. But at the end it all comes down to ones acceptance to stuff they sell.

My opinion is we really are lucky not so many planets can support life and with such specific string of events that we are here.

Dont you think that if god was ever real he might intervene in many horrific events that took place in course of hes known biblical existence?

In other words if such things as god would exists world would be much different place.

Or perhaps, if gods did not exist, the world would be a very different place. :innocent:

To take up your other point, you cant look at it the way you do. We are here because earth was in the Goldilocks Zone. All this debate derives from that fact. Thus it is not luck. The zone existed, hence we are here.

If it had not existed we would not be here. No luck, just cause and effect.

But "we" might be having this discussion in another form and language, in another goldilocks zone, where similar self- aware life has also evolved. :devil:

Edited by Mr Walker

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So pure luck and morality takes time to evolve in a goldilock zone. Ok sure liquid water for us a species less moral then those that have been around longer has no reliviance. I see animals such as some see us humans not animals to have a much better morality than we do.

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Wow How do you have hope? ,,,, i'll give ya"there not such thing as Karma ,,,,It s CAUSE & EFFECT..

maybe your leaving your self in that REAL narrow place? Like All your thoughts coming from one place Explore your options...****! I was just sayin.................

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