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Still Waters

Turin Shroud 'is not a medieval forgery'

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Experiments conducted by scientists at the University of Padua in northern Italy have dated the shroud to ancient times, a few centuries before and after the life of Christ.

Many Catholics believe that the 14ft-long linen cloth, which bears the imprint of the face and body of a bearded man, was used to bury Christ's body when he was lifted down from the cross after being crucified 2,000 years ago.

The tests will revive the debate about the true origins of one of Christianity's most prized but mysterious relics and are likely to be hotly contested by sceptics.

http://www.telegraph...al-forgery.html

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I think the Turin Shroud is something very special. Yes it is a hot debate on if it is real or a fake. I have read and heard stories of people touching to shroud and being healed or found a inner peace like they never have had. If it is faith or a higher power who cares.

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I don't know about it's age or origin, but it is a forgery regardless of how old it is. The face would be distorted and elongated if placed above a real body.

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People that want to believe that it is real need no proof and people that don't won't accept any. I think it will always be controversial.

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So many tests and so much research, and yet still so many different answers.

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Relic-ary has been a major source of income for religious institutions for centuries..enough said

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In my opinion, fake. Manufactured by the powers that be(catholic church) to support doctrine and maintain the status quo(i.e. ruling).

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If the cloth had been draped over a body as claimed in the myth, when the cloth was laid flat, the image would be wildly distorted and would bear no resemblance to the image we see on the shroud. Every scientific test performed has shown it to be a forgery yet the true believers continue to believe.

Let the babies have their security blanket.

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Real or not its a brilliant peace of art

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I don't know anything about the new dating spectroscopy technique used. 300 BCE - 400 CE is a big window to point to a moment in time. What bothers me is when you look at the face it looks like a western man like a picture of Jesus from a white southern Baptist church, rather then middle eastern man.

If people what to believe it is relic of their guru then your not going to change their minds about no matter what you tell them.

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If the shroud is not a fake then the bible is not true ,if on the other hand the bible is true then the shroud is a fake

This an excerpt from a longer piece

Turin Shroud; What Does The Bible Say?

Luke 24:12: ‘Peter got up and ran to the tomb and stooping down and looking in, he saw the strips of linen

cloths alone by themselves, and he went home, wondering about what had happened’.

John 20:5 to 7: ‘Stooping down, John saw the linen cloths lying there, but he did not enter the tomb. Then

Peter came up after him and went into the tomb and saw the linen cloths lying there; but the burial cloth

which had been around Jesus' head was not lying with the other linen cloths, but was rolled up in a place by

itself’.

We must always rely on the Word of God to show us the truth, and the scriptural description of Jesus’ burial

cloths, His torture and His crucifixion do not match that of the Turin Shroud. There are four verses that tell us

Jesus was initially rolled up in a linen cloth for a short time while He was being carried from the cross to the

tomb. ‘Joseph took the body of Jesus down from the cross and rolled it up in a fine, clean linen cloth laid Him

in his own fresh tomb, which he had hewn in the rock’ (Matthew 27:59; Mark 15:46; Luke 23:53). John says

more: ‘Nicodemus came bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, weighing about a hundred (Latin) pounds.

They took Jesus' body and bound it in linen cloths with the aromatic spices as is the Jews' customary way to

prepare for burial. There was a garden in the place where He was crucified, and in the garden a new tomb,

in which no one had ever been laid’ (John 19:39 to 41). These verses tell us Jesus was buried in a garden

just outside Jerusalem. Once inside the tomb Jesus was buried properly by Nicodemus and Joseph of

Arimathea. Jesus’ body would have been washed then the Bible says He was anointed with the spices,

myrrh and aloes, then they bound Him up using strips of cloth, as was the Jewish custom, and as it is written

in the Bible. They probably tore the initial cloth into the strips. We can see by the scriptures that Jesus was

initially rolled up in the cloth and later bound in several strips of linen cloth that were used for burial. That is

very different to what we know about the shroud.

The shroud kept in Turin is in one piece with the face of the victim clearly outlined. The shroud victim was not

rolled up in the shroud, he was carefully placed on half of the shroud then the other half was folded over his

head and body. Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus took Jesus’ body and bound it in linen cloths (plural).

John saw the linen cloths (plural) lying there, then Peter saw the linen cloths (plural) lying there but the burial

headpiece was not lying with the other linen cloths, but was still rolled up, that is wrapped round and round in

a place by itself. Wrapped around and around as the cloths would have been when Jesus’ head was

wrapped up by the men. Logically, one shroud cannot possibly be in two separate places at once, and it

cannot be both one piece of shroud cloth, and several strips of cloth at the same time. The Turin Shroud

itself is real enough and it may have been the shroud of a victim of crucifixion, but it is not the burial cloth of

Jesus; He simply was not buried in a one-piece shroud

biblebookoftruth.com

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Saw an interesting show on the Shroud a few years back. From what I remember the Shroud had been in a fire (you can see the patches sown in where it was damaged) and there was some debate about the carbon dating being corrupted by the smoke from the fire. And if I remember correctly, the sample used in the C14 test was taken from the edge of the cloth where a boarder had been added. It was thought this accounted for the later dating of the relic.

Other things of interest where that plants shed pollen and pollen tends to attach itself to cloth and other semi-porous objects. Pollen has been cataloged and can usually be identified as to genus or species. The pollen collected from the Shroud was shown to be from plants native to Palestine. I believe the cloth itself was found to be consistent with the early first century as well.

The most interesting thing to me was that the image does not appear to be pigment, the examiners believe it was created by intense light, almost like LASER light and was "burned" into the cloth. The image it not a flat image like a painting, rather it has a three dimensional quality and using a computer they were able to reconstruct the face.

There is also a lesser known object called the Shroud of Oviedo, which is the believed to be the burial cloth that covered the face of Jesus. It supposedly aligns with the facial features on the Shroud of Turin and both are said to have stains of type AB blood. Here is an account from John 20 showing two pieces of cloth were involved in the burial.

3 So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. 4 Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5 He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in.6 Then Simon Peter came along behind him and went straight into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, 7 as well as the cloth that had been wrapped around Jesus’ head. The cloth was still lying in its place, separate from the linen.

Likely there will always be debate about the Shroud and the One allegedly wrapped therein. Makes for a good mystery!

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And the napkin, that was about his head, NOT lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself. JOHN 20:7

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This debate is going to go on forever. Even if the blood spots match at AB, there's no record of what Jesus blood type was. Just becasue they match doesn't make it his. If it is his, would we not have the DNA of God?

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A point I forgot earlier. The research was run in Italy. Let's see.....where's the Vatican?

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A point I forgot earlier. The research was run in Italy. Let's see.....where's the Vatican?

The Vatican is in Vatican City. A sovereign city state.

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Even if it was a medieval forgerie, I'm amazed how it's lasted this long.

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Posted (edited)

I think the Turin Shroud is something very special. Yes it is a hot debate on if it is real or a fake. I have read and heard stories of people touching to shroud and being healed or found a inner peace like they never have had. If it is faith or a higher power who cares.

People touching the shroud which is sealed in an environmentally sealed container? Interesting. And the man who did the testing is a devout Catholic who states his goal was to prove that it wasn't a medieval forgery, and what do you know, he proved it.

Edited by awest

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my biggest problem with this shroud is one often overlooked, jesus being bornand raised in the time he was would have adhered to a certain standard of appearance. He probably wanted people to listen to him and probably tried to keep up with his appearance, he likely had the style of a commoner and as such would have had close cropped hair and a shaven face. He wouldnt have had long hair or a beard which the face on the shroud features. in the show someone else mentioned, the computer enhanced face looked a lot like a 14th century french or italian man with hair and beard styled to match. the image was also made with a chemical reaction similar to that of a modern day strip of film that has been exposed to an image which also explains the image's lack of pigment and negative image. its a fake however creative. all that aside people also tend to overlook the fact that there are zero credible mentions of jesus in the annals of history, casting serious doubts as to a real jesus having ever existed. dont you think if jesus was going all over the sainai claiming to be god or the son of god there would have been enough people writing and making mention of him for us to have one document survive. instead we get a clever greek book featuring a man claming to be god featuring many facets of dionysius and heracles written by jews that are not wealthy but for some reason are not in israel. it all sounds so out of place and almost disrespectful to our intellegence to expect us to really believe anythin in or about the new testament. in the immortal words of my friend Alan; "i call bullsh*t"

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To date the shroud to the time of Jesus and that we may have a actual artifact of Jesus is truely wonderful.

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For believers, wether the artifact is true to its source or not, it provides a kind of psychological nourishment that perhaps seeing a likeness of the artifact in the clouds does. It is supportive. For nonbelievers, this artifact raises doubts about personal beliefs and instills an uneasiness resulting in cognitive dissonance. But, what I find most interesting about this controversy is the manner in which we deal with the uncertainty of our beliefs.

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my biggest problem with this shroud is one often overlooked, jesus being bornand raised in the time he was would have adhered to a certain standard of appearance. He probably wanted people to listen to him and probably tried to keep up with his appearance, he likely had the style of a commoner and as such would have had close cropped hair and a shaven face. He wouldnt have had long hair or a beard which the face on the shroud features. in the show someone else mentioned, the computer enhanced face looked a lot like a 14th century french or italian man with hair and beard styled to match. the image was also made with a chemical reaction similar to that of a modern day strip of film that has been exposed to an image which also explains the image's lack of pigment and negative image. its a fake however creative. all that aside people also tend to overlook the fact that there are zero credible mentions of jesus in the annals of history, casting serious doubts as to a real jesus having ever existed. dont you think if jesus was going all over the sainai claiming to be god or the son of god there would have been enough people writing and making mention of him for us to have one document survive. instead we get a clever greek book featuring a man claming to be god featuring many facets of dionysius and heracles written by jews that are not wealthy but for some reason are not in israel. it all sounds so out of place and almost disrespectful to our intellegence to expect us to really believe anythin in or about the new testament. in the immortal words of my friend Alan; "i call bullsh*t"

I think on the same wavelength. When I hear stories about how people see images of Jesus & the Virgin Mary in things, the first thing I thinks is......How do they know what Jesus & Mary looked like? Nobody knows what they looked like, so how can anybody identify either one of them in anything?

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Relic-ary has been a major source of income for religious institutions for centuries..enough said

Mark Twain wrote in "The Innocents Abroad" :

But isn't this relic matter a little overdone? We find a piece of the true cross in every old church we go into, and some of the nails that held it together. I would not like to be positive, but I think we have seen as much as a keg of these nails. Then there is the crown of thorns; they have part of one in Sainte Chapelle, in Paris, and part of one also in Notre Dame. And as for bones of St. Denis, I feel certain we have seen enough of them to duplicate him if necessary.

Everyone on Earth should read that hilarious book.

Harte

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Sometimes you have to take things on faith alone, and I choose to believe it's real.

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Even if its from the time of Jesus, its unlikely to be the shroud of Jesus.

1. I don't see a way how one face could be "printed" on a shroud in just a few days( i sleep in my sheets more than a few days and still don't see any print of my face on it).

2. In that time almost all of the men have beards so how can you tell its the shroud of Jesus.

And i wanna add why people want this to be real, if you believe in God and your faith you don't need any prof, except if you have any doughs. A religion is based of believe not on facts.

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