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Still Waters

Black rhino:Poachers target UK wildlife parks

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Rare rhinos in wildlife parks may be under threat from poachers, police in Kent have warned.

Night-time patrols have been stepped up by the the Aspinall Foundation, which runs Port Lympne and Howletts wildlife parks near Canterbury.

Police said they had an anonymous tip-off the foundation's black rhinos could be targeted by poachers, who sell the horns for traditional medicine.

The foundation currently has 20 black rhinos at the two parks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...d-kent-21980753

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Let the park rangers use guns. Would be better off if these morons are shot.

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The Chinese government are meant to be putting a stop to this over there, but it seems that the money men who can afford it still have control!! Anyone found even attempting or contemplating poaching in England should be imprisoned for at least 10 years or deported if they are not ENGLISH born and bred. There should be an absolute NO TOLERANCE policy for this kind of thing.

Not enough is being done to catch the people who demand the horns, their money should not have anything to do it and they should not be allowed to buy their way past our laws!! if they are intending to send people here or are intending to pay people here to do this, then no matter what country they are in, the buyers should be arrested and held accountable for their actions. i want to see them stop it happening before its too late. The law here and in China know who these rich people are!!

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Let the park rangers use guns. Would be better off if these morons are shot.

But they're using the horns for medicine, such a noble purpose to kill for. Even more so than "scientific research". Why take measures to stop them from taking those horns for medicine? That's "terrorism"! The UK park rangers are terrorists! Why don't they just sit down and talk to the poachers in a respectable manner and politely ask them to stop? *sarcasm switch off in 3....2....1...."

Here again the double standard of our collective indoctrination is on display. When a government uses lethal force to kill a poacher, nobody bats an eye. When private individuals stop poachers with no violence or deadly force whatsoever, their political detractors cry and cry and sling their political labels off the cuff. Nobody protracts into discussions about how intelligent rhinos are, or how beautiful, or how endangered as some kind of qualitative argument to support the government action. The letters from the bureau are crystal clear and that's what really matters. That's where we derive the Color of Right. I think the real difference is that rhinos are on land and land dwellers can grasp an abstract principle of conservation when it's being done on their land they feel communally or nationalistically a part of.

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Posted (edited)

Black rhinos are on the verge of extinction. The minke whale is not.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/45236688/

Black rhinos live on land, land that sovereign governments control with laws. If those laws determine killing and arresting poachers is in the best interest of the rhinos then I say kill em all (the poachers).

When private individuals take the law into their own hands they become vigilantes, and or terrorists. Sea Shepard is a very violent organization, I am sure you would agree they are violent if someone used those very same tactics against you and your property.

Edited by evancj

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Black rhinos are on the verge of extinction. The minke whale is not.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/45236688/

Black rhinos live on land, land that sovereign governments control with laws. If those laws determine killing and arresting poachers is in the best interest of the rhinos then I say kill em all (the poachers).

When private individuals take the law into their own hands they become vigilantes, and or terrorists. Sea Shepard is a very violent organization, I am sure you would agree they are violent if someone used those very same tactics against you and your property.

Private individuals take the law into their own hands every day at all times; it's our duty as citizens and moreover as human beings.

So being on the verge of extinction is when we should finally get up off the couch and put some words together? That's waiting far too long.

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If I catch a criminal on my territory I would use "violence" to eradicate them from my territory. That doesn't make me a "terrorist", it makes me a private individual upholding the law. Stunning for some people, I know.

Someone who can only seem to respect "sovereign government control with laws" can't seem to respect laws created by sovereign government, in spirit or in letter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_arrest

Sea Shepherd is a non-violent organization as proven by their entire 36 year old history. IMHO, people crying about the "violence" of Sea Shepherd really need to find something worthwhile to cry about.

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Who gives a crap about Sea Shepard? Hardly anyone likes them, same as the poachers they should be treated as terrorists and they terrorise Rhinos, Elephants and fishermen of all backgrounds. Also they only care about themselves only money money.

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Who gives a crap about Sea Shepard? Hardly anyone likes them, same as the poachers they should be treated as terrorists and they terrorise Rhinos, Elephants and fishermen of all backgrounds. Also they only care about themselves only money money.

I could say the same things about the UK government, but those are no reasons to disagree with confronting poachers. You must be another one who wants to sit on your hands and let the illegal Japanese whalers have their way. Terrorists use violence to get their way, so do governments and poachers, all unlike a non-violent organization like Sea Shepherd who doesn't hurt anyone (except for a lot of feelings apparently).

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Private individuals take the law into their own hands every day at all times; it's our duty as citizens and moreover as human beings.

Please tell me when is the last time you arrested someone, or pulled someone over to issue a traffic ticket? Reporting a crime is a far cry from directly enforcing the law.

So being on the verge of extinction is when we should finally get up off the couch and put some words together? That's waiting far too long.

Did I say that, or even imply that? Several countries around the world have been hunting minke whales for decades and the population has remained stable, they are not threatened at all as a species. You are comparing apples to oranges.

I find it interesting that there are plenty marine species on the brink, sharks, & blue fin tuna for example. Why is it sea shepherd is only concerned about a whale species that has a healthy stable population? Are fish not sexy, smart, or mammalian enough for them? Do fish not generate the attention, or sympathy needed for your self proclaimed heroes to take advantage of? Why doesn't your psychopath captain go after the Australian tuna fishermen, or the Asian fishermen collecting shark fins?

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If I catch a criminal on my territory I would use "violence" to eradicate them from my territory. That doesn't make me a "terrorist", it makes me a private individual upholding the law. Stunning for some people, I know.

No it makes you someone whom is defending his/her life and or property. I don't think that is stunning at all.

Someone who can only seem to respect "sovereign government control with laws" can't seem to respect laws created by sovereign government, in spirit or in letter.

http://en.wikipedia....itizen's_arrest

Sure in theory it works, but in reality the arresting citizen opens him/herself to all kinds of legal trouble. I'm just guessing here but my bet is you have never been to a lawless country.

Sea Shepherd is a non-violent organization as proven by their entire 36 year old history. IMHO, people crying about the "violence" of Sea Shepherd really need to find something worthwhile to cry about.

So if I throw a flash-bang grenade into your home or deliberately rammed my car into yours, you would not consider them a violent acts?

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No it makes you someone whom is defending his/her life and or property. I don't think that is stunning at all.

So if I throw a flash-bang grenade into your home or deliberately rammed my car into yours, you would not consider them a violent acts?

I consider shooting someone in the back of the head with a harpoon gun not just violent but barbaric. When you find a rape in progress or a murder in progress, and you are duly armed and trained to defend yourself, it behooves you to act responsibly and take the law into your own hands and bring the criminal to justice. You don't need to be an agent of the government in order to have this presumption of righteousness that you keep playing off on. Being painted battleship grey and taxpayer funded doesn't make the Color of Right. There is more to it than that.

You're confused with the facts in your questions here. It's the Japanese whalers throwing flash-bang grenades and T-boning vessels at a normal angle and splitting them in half. You can't commit "violence" to a railing on a ship by denting it. You can't commit "violence" to inanimate objects. Sinking whaling fleets are destroying poaching equipment. It's the exact same exercise as destroying traps, trucks, guns, cages, of other poachers. I cannot take anyone seriously who opposes confrontation and taking these poachers out. These rhino poachers should be shot. The Japanese whalers should be escorted out of Australian waters at gunpoint. If I was the President I'd send three frigates to that fleet with a shell across their bow and I'd board those ships and arrest every last one of them to stand trial and face justice. Woulda shoulda coulda. What we need to do is stop crying about what others are doing and start standing up and doing more ourselves. It's not surprising or even worth commenting that you don't agree with the tactics of everyone else alive. Neither do I. That's life. That's the world, big and diverse as it is.

Paul Watson does invite legal trouble and it makes him even more beloved. That's the nature of the humanist beast he's up against. People who hear the word "wilderness" mentioned in the Bible dozens of times, every mention of the word dressed up in negative connotation, people who see a cloven-hoofed and horn-headed devil with a tail so they attribute evil to the characteristics of animals. People who believe that every animal, plant and atom floating through the air is there for their own comfort and consumption, so obviously clueless about how interdependent food chains are and how fragile dying ecosystems have become. Don't worry exclusively about the land. We live on the land. We'll take care of that. The oceans are dying in our time. Sharks and all other large fish can't withstand the slaughter they're enduring by the fishing industry. Sea Shepherd has joined the battle to preserve these fish. You thought they were just about the great whales? They're not. Sharks in the Galapagos. Bluefin in the Mediterranean. Google "Sea Shepherd Blue Rage" and educate yourself. Why doesn't he go after tuna fishermen? He does. You would know that if you did homework.

You're not in a position to make statements as if they're facts about this issue when you don't have facts, you're playing very loose and fast with your statements, just stating things out of hand without knowing better. Stating that Minke whales aren't endangered was another example. The status of the Minke whales that Sea Shepherd is defending is unknown, even by the bureau if those are the numbers you care about. You're in a position to ask questions about Sea Shepherd as you just have, and if you're honest to your own logic, you will acknowledge the facts that I've shared with you here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antarctic_minke_whale

It doesn't matter when the last time I arrested someone is. I don't have to arrest someone to understand and accept the law. I don't have to do something before I agree with someone else doing it. That would imply that I insist everyone else in the world should be like me. A contradictory mindset to someone who understands the importance of biodiversity.

We have all the rules, regulations and laws we need to justify Sea Shepherd's actions. The reason you're able to fall into your politically maligned opinion about them is because governments are derelict and you live in a world where if the government doesn't do something, it either can't or shouldn't get done.

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Posted (edited)

I consider shooting someone in the back of the head with a harpoon gun not just violent but barbaric. When you find a rape in progress or a murder in progress, and you are duly armed and trained to defend yourself, it behooves you to act responsibly and take the law into your own hands and bring the criminal to justice.

Agreed, I have no problem using force, deadly or otherwise in such dire circumstances.

When I was young and idealistic I stopped a drunk guy in the middle of severely beating his drunk girlfriend on a public street and held him down until the police arrived. Guess who was charged with assault, put in hand cuffs, and almost arrested? Me. The girlfriend turned on me and told the police I had attacked her boyfriend for no reason. Luckily for me (not the girl) her face was beaten to a pulp and she was too drunk too realize it, and there were half a dozen witnesses to back me up. As it turns out I dislocated the guy shoulder, and was sued later on and had to go to court to defend myself. Ultimately the charges where dismissed. Was it worth the trouble? No it wasn't.

You don't need to be an agent of the government in order to have this presumption of righteousness that you keep playing off on. Being painted battleship grey and taxpayer funded doesn't make the Color of Right. There is more to it than that.

Believe me I have no presumption of righteousness when it comes to my opinion. I know I am not the smartest man on earth, and I know I am not always right. At least I can admit that.

You're confused with the facts in your questions here. It's the Japanese whalers throwing flash-bang grenades and T-boning vessels at a normal angle and splitting them in half. You can't commit "violence" to a railing on a ship by denting it. You can't commit "violence" to inanimate objects. Sinking whaling fleets are destroying poaching equipment. It's the exact same exercise as destroying traps, trucks, guns, cages, of other poachers. I cannot take anyone seriously who opposes confrontation and taking these poachers out. These rhino poachers should be shot. The Japanese whalers should be escorted out of Australian waters at gunpoint. If I was the President I'd send three frigates to that fleet with a shell across their bow and I'd board those ships and arrest every last one of them to stand trial and face justice. Woulda shoulda coulda. What we need to do is stop crying about what others are doing and start standing up and doing more ourselves. It's not surprising or even worth commenting that you don't agree with the tactics of everyone else alive. Neither do I. That's life. That's the world, big and diverse as it is.

Ramming into a vessel that has passengers on to is a violent act and put both crews in danger. Sea shepard admits that it does this frequently.

Paul Watson does invite legal trouble and it makes him even more beloved. That's the nature of the humanist beast he's up against. People who hear the word "wilderness" mentioned in the Bible dozens of times, every mention of the word dressed up in negative connotation, people who see a cloven-hoofed and horn-headed devil with a tail so they attribute evil to the characteristics of animals.

Well personally, I think the bible is a load of crap, so you will not get any argument from me about that. FYI I love animals, and wilderness, and spend any free time that I have in the company of both.

People who believe that every animal, plant and atom floating through the air is there for their own comfort and consumption, so obviously clueless about how interdependent food chains are and how fragile dying ecosystems have become. Don't worry exclusively about the land. We live on the land. We'll take care of that. The oceans are dying in our time. Sharks and all other large fish can't withstand the slaughter they're enduring by the fishing industry. Sea Shepherd has joined the battle to preserve these fish.

Agree with 90% of the above statement. What I don't agree with is SS methods and tactics. They have done more harm than good when it comes to environmental and conservation efforts. They have alienated millions of people around the world that would have otherwise supported them. They may have saved a few fish and whales, but they will never save the oceans without the support of the entire planet.

You thought they were just about the great whales? They're not. Sharks in the Galapagos. Bluefin in the Mediterranean. Google "Sea Shepherd Blue Rage" and educate yourself. Why doesn't he go after tuna fishermen? He does. You would know that if you did homework.

So why doesn't he go after Australian tuna fishermen? Is he afraid he will loose his last safe haven? It looks like he has compromised his values in exchange for a port.

You're not in a position to make statements as if they're facts about this issue when you don't have facts, you're playing very loose and fast with your statements, just stating things out of hand without knowing better. Stating that Minke whales aren't endangered was another example. The status of the Minke whales that Sea Shepherd is defending is unknown, even by the bureau if those are the numbers you care about. You're in a position to ask questions about Sea Shepherd as you just have, and if you're honest to your own logic, you will acknowledge the facts that I've shared with you here.

http://en.wikipedia....tic_minke_whale

It would appear that sea shepard disagrees with you.

http://www.seashepherd.org/no-compromise/minke-whale-facts.html

"Scientists are still examining the populations of Minke whales in areas where they are harvested, and have discovered that the largest numbers of Minkes are found in the southern hemisphere. It is thought that Minke populations have increased as they started to eat the food that was previously eaten by the now-depleted large whale species. The present population worldwide is believed to be over a million animals."

It doesn't matter when the last time I arrested someone is. I don't have to arrest someone to understand and accept the law. I don't have to do something before I agree with someone else doing it. That would imply that I insist everyone else in the world should be like me. A contradictory mindset to someone who understands the importance of biodiversity.

We have all the rules, regulations and laws we need to justify Sea Shepherd's actions. The reason you're able to fall into your politically maligned opinion about them is because governments are derelict and you live in a world where if the government doesn't do something, it either can't or shouldn't get done.

You are absolutely right. I'll come clean, I did deliberately twist the facts a bit. But I was only taking the advice of your reckless and unstable hero captain, and using it against him:

"If you don't know an answer, a fact, a statistic, then [. . .] make it up on the spot and deliver the information confidently and without hesitation."

"truth is irrelevant" (Watson expressed disdain for truthfulness in the pursuit of environmental protection goals. Said he, "The nature of the mass media today is such that the truth is irrelevant. What is true and what is right to the general public is what is defined as true and right by the mass media.")

http://www.youdontsay.org/Quotes/W.htm

Edited by evancj

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Agreed, I have no problem using force, deadly or otherwise in such dire circumstances.

When I was young and idealistic I stopped a drunk guy in the middle of severely beating his drunk girlfriend on a public street and held him down until the police arrived. Guess who was charged with assault, put in hand cuffs, and almost arrested? Me. The girlfriend turned on me and told the police I had attacked her boyfriend for no reason. Luckily for me (not the girl) her face was beaten to a pulp and she was too drunk too realize it, and there were half a dozen witnesses to back me up. As it turns out I dislocated the guy shoulder, and was sued later on and had to go to court to defend myself. Ultimately the charges where dismissed. Was it worth the trouble? No it wasn't.

Believe me I have no presumption of righteousness when it comes to my opinion. I know I am not the smartest man on earth, and I know I am not always right. At least I can admit that.

Ramming into a vessel that has passengers on to is a violent act and put both crews in danger. Sea shepard admits that it does this frequently.

Well personally, I think the bible is a load of crap, so you will not get any argument from me about that. FYI I love animals, and wilderness, and spend any free time that I have in the company of both.

Agree with 90% of the above statement. What I don't agree with is SS methods and tactics. They have done more harm than good when it comes to environmental and conservation efforts. They have alienated millions of people around the world that would have otherwise supported them. They may have saved a few fish and whales, but they will never save the oceans without the support of the entire planet.

So why doesn't he go after Australian tuna fishermen? Is he afraid he will loose his last safe haven? It looks like he has compromised his values in exchange for a port.

It would appear that sea shepard disagrees with you.

http://www.seashephe...hale-facts.html

"Scientists are still examining the populations of Minke whales in areas where they are harvested, and have discovered that the largest numbers of Minkes are found in the southern hemisphere. It is thought that Minke populations have increased as they started to eat the food that was previously eaten by the now-depleted large whale species. The present population worldwide is believed to be over a million animals."

You are absolutely right. I'll come clean, I did deliberately twist the facts a bit. But I was only taking the advice of your reckless and unstable hero captain, and using it against him:

"If you don't know an answer, a fact, a statistic, then [. . .] make it up on the spot and deliver the information confidently and without hesitation."

"truth is irrelevant" (Watson expressed disdain for truthfulness in the pursuit of environmental protection goals. Said he, "The nature of the mass media today is such that the truth is irrelevant. What is true and what is right to the general public is what is defined as true and right by the mass media.")

http://www.youdontsay.org/Quotes/W.htm

If you criticized everyone else for everything else you can think of they're not doing, in spite of what they are, you'd spend a lifetime complaining about everything. Sea Shepherd does an extraordinary amount of work with the meager budget that they have. I'd like to see other environmental groups put out more on an annual budget of ~$10 million.

The truth is irrelevant to the mass media that's why those clowns need to be manipulated and Paul Watson does a standup job of doing so. We shouldn't get our truth and values from the media but unfortunately we do. Like Watson says, he doesn't make the rules, he just plays the game. The one quote you put in bold isn't Watson telling you what you should do "on the spot" he was referring to what the media does on a regular basis. That's their game, and it gets falsely attributed to Watson because you read these political blogs that take quotes out of context and cause you to misunderstand them. I hope you're honest enough to acknowledge that.

Sea Shepherd doesn't ram to sink vessels with passengers on board. They ram to block the transfer of whales. Not at normal angles that split ships apart like the whalers, but at sheer angles that don't hurt anyone. I don't know why people are so quick to drop these media labels like "terrorist" when they've never hurt anyone. That's a powerful fact that makes all the difference. If they were out there killing people, opinions like yours would make sense.

All the Japanese government seems to understand is force. If Australian legal efforts in court succeed but Japan doesn't respect the judgment against them, I hope Sea Shepherd continues to do what the Australian government refuses to do. The only difference is, the Australian ships are grey, the SSCS ships are black. The Australian Navy would use force, the SSCS doesn't have guns and bombs and rockets and torpedoes so they have to be far more creative in their tactics, and good on them for doing so. There's nothing better in this world than civil society coming together to solve the problems in the world with non-violence. If you don't like what someone else is doing and you care this much about it then it behooves you to stand up and take action and do something about it otherwise you're just sitting around complaining, and the world would be a terrible place indeed if everyone was just sitting around and complaining. That is, in fact, the nature of every problem the world faces. Don't be a part of it. If you have better ideas, don't sit around. Act! We are remembered at the end of our days for our actions. What will you do?

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Posted (edited)

I don't think that quote was taken out of context, I could not find anything from the captain saying it was. But if you can provide something to the contrary I would be willing to reconsider.

I think I have done my fair share for the natural world both volunteering locally and in donations for organizations who I think are effective, and can work well with others, without p***ing off everyone. What have you done?

IMO SS will never be very effective, and the organization will die with your overly egotistical captain, whose memory will shortly fade into oblivion.

Edited by evancj

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I don't think that quote was taken out of context, I could not find anything from the captain saying it was. But if you can provide something to the contrary I would be willing to reconsider.

I think I have done my fair share for the natural world both volunteering locally and in donations for organizations who I think are effective, and can work well with others, without p***ing off everyone. What have you done?

IMO SS will never be very effective, and the organization will die with your overly egotistical captain, whose memory will shortly fade into oblivion.

Appeasing criminals doesn't work. That's a fairytale mindset in a wonderland of naivety. The world needs real conservatives and nobody is more conservative than a conservationist.

Of course you don't think that quote was taken out of context. You just visit pro-whaling blogs and take snippets and soundbytes off of such websites and think that everything you read about Sea Shepherd there must be true so long as you understand it in the worst possible context. The context of that statement was describing the strategy in the media. For clarification, Paul Watson explains: "I think it was President Ronald Reagan who put that particular media strategy into effect, a tradition now utilized by the FOX network every day." We've lost thousands of brave young men and women in Iraq on a pack of lies. But that's acceptable while employing even more of the same lies to take people out of context just to slander them is acceptable. At least you do it anonymously.

I've already explained what I've done in the SSS Bob Barker thread. Please visit there and participate for further information. What organizations do you think are effective and why?

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It's the Vietnamese elite who create the largest demand for powdered rhino horn. Idiots should be given powdered fingernail s. Same stuff. I say shoot them. Poachers won't hesitate to use lethal force. Enough people on the planet. Shoot poachers and anyone in the chain who uses or deals in rhino, elephant or tiger parts. Humanity has gone soft, we will never do my suggestion so unless governments spend millions in advertising then the rhino and tiger is lost. When there is no rhino horn I am sure orangutan teeth will suffice.

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Appeasing criminals doesn't work. That's a fairytale mindset in a wonderland of naivety. The world needs real conservatives and nobody is more conservative than a conservationist.

Of course you don't think that quote was taken out of context. You just visit pro-whaling blogs and take snippets and soundbytes off of such websites and think that everything you read about Sea Shepherd there must be true so long as you understand it in the worst possible context. The context of that statement was describing the strategy in the media. For clarification, Paul Watson explains: "I think it was President Ronald Reagan who put that particular media strategy into effect, a tradition now utilized by the FOX network every day." We've lost thousands of brave young men and women in Iraq on a pack of lies. But that's acceptable while employing even more of the same lies to take people out of context just to slander them is acceptable. At least you do it anonymously.

I've already explained what I've done in the SSS Bob Barker thread. Please visit there and participate for further information. What organizations do you think are effective and why?

I think we have come to the point in this conversation where we should just agree to disagree on the subject of SS.

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