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Babe Ruth

UK troops do the right thing

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http://tinyurl.com/bvlh5dl

Several British troops have now come forward with more evidence regarding torture conducted by US troops. Stanley McChrystal implicated.

Whistleblowers of the best kind, however late. The Guardian covers it.

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That is disgusting.

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As bad as it is,I can't help feeling that if the shoe was on the other foot,the Iraqis would have used just as brutal means.

C'est la Guerre.

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Don't they torture the people they have at Gitmo....some as far as I'm aware haven't even been convicted of any crime, but its always shock horror when incidents such as the beheading of westerners a few years ago.....makes you wonder just what pushed these groups/people to want to do that in the first place ?

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As bad as it is,I can't help feeling that if the shoe was on the other foot,the Iraqis would have used just as brutal means.

C'est la Guerre.

And that makes it ok? What a **** world we live in.

Curse all humans.

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I don't think we should be torturing people but I'm sure they would do it to us. Someone being tortured will tell you anything and doesn't win us any friends.

I also think gitmo should be closed and don't understand why it hasn't.

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And that makes it ok? What a **** world we live in.

Curse all humans.

No it doesn't make it ok,it's just the way it is.

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As bad as it is,I can't help feeling that if the shoe was on the other foot,the Iraqis would have used just as brutal means.

C'est la Guerre.

Yeah, I'm sure you're not wrong. But as my mother was so fond of saying if all of you're friends jumped off of a building would you do it too?

I hate all of the pro torture stuff I read on UM every time it comes up in a thread. Often I'm sure by people who consider themselves Christians. My guess is that they would have been for the brutality of the inquisition had they lived in the middle ages.

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Yeah, I'm sure you're not wrong. But as my mother was so fond of saying if all of you're friends jumped off of a building would you do it too?

I hate all of the pro torture stuff I read on UM every time it comes up in a thread. Often I'm sure by people who consider themselves Christians. My guess is that they would have been for the brutality of the inquisition had they lived in the middle ages.

I'm not pro torture,but the reality is that most if not all governments secretly use this means to extract information.

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I'm not pro torture,but the reality is that most if not all governments secretly use this means to extract information.

Too true. All of my friends who had joined up in the 70's and 80's all underwent training to resist torture for a reason.;
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I have never really seen the point of torture as a means to garner infomation.

From accounts ive read from people who have been tortured, in the end you say anything to make the pain stop. You say things that are not true, admit to doing/seeing things you never did or saw. You denounce you own family, your god, your own name, anything and everything. Nothing extracted under such stress could be taken to be true unless you could verify everything they said with additional infomation which is not always possible.

Of accounts ive read from soldiers who were tortured, such as the SAS soldiers from Bravo Two Zero, they suffered beatings, having teeth and fingernails torn out with pliers etc and most of them managed to resist saying anying more than name and rank. Though to be honest teeth pulling etc is pretty low grade on the torture front.

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I'm not pro torture,but the reality is that most if not all governments secretly use this means to extract information.

I would add that I feel the same and that these days the moral dilemma is much more acute. Is the life, sanity or physical health of one or a few human beings worth MORE than the lives of many hundreds or thousands? The main problem with being dogmatically anti torture under any circumstances is that while it makes one comfortable from a moral standpoint, it is possible to condemn many innocents to death by not extracting information that could save them. Having said this, I admit that as far as we know, no such situation has existed up til now. But with the possibility of nuclear, biological or chemical weapons being used by a terror cell do we seriously want to choose and telegraph to them that we would NEVER do anything except ask questions of them? I have a basic human response - if they are okay with harming my child, my family, then I'm okay with stopping them with whatever force is necessary to do it. If that makes me immoral in the eyes of some then so be it.
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As for me, I'm just happy to see a few Brits step forward and do the right thing. Better late than never.

Not many americans have done that. A few at Abu Ghraib, and they were court martialed. Most of the americans were enjoying the torture too much.

Perhaps these whistleblowers will make more definitive cases against Dubya and Rummy et al for their war crimes. I hope so.

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I don't think we should be torturing people but I'm sure they would do it to us. Someone being tortured will tell you anything and doesn't win us any friends.

I also think gitmo should be closed and don't understand why it hasn't.

Who are they going to torture if Gitmo is closed? Torture is just an evil sadistic powertrip no matter who does it to whom. It desentisized the people doing the torture to human feelings.

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I would add that I feel the same and that these days the moral dilemma is much more acute. Is the life, sanity or physical health of one or a few human beings worth MORE than the lives of many hundreds or thousands? The main problem with being dogmatically anti torture under any circumstances is that while it makes one comfortable from a moral standpoint, it is possible to condemn many innocents to death by not extracting information that could save them. Having said this, I admit that as far as we know, no such situation has existed up til now. But with the possibility of nuclear, biological or chemical weapons being used by a terror cell do we seriously want to choose and telegraph to them that we would NEVER do anything except ask questions of them? I have a basic human response - if they are okay with harming my child, my family, then I'm okay with stopping them with whatever force is necessary to do it. If that makes me immoral in the eyes of some then so be it.

It is indeed immoral,but as you say if it saves innocent lives then it is an evil that one must accept,as hard as it is for me to Stomach.

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Who are they going to torture if Gitmo is closed? Torture is just an evil sadistic powertrip no matter who does it to whom. It desentisized the people doing the torture to human feelings.

Even if you are 100% correct, the issue is would you under ANY circumstances condone it as necessary? Is there some point at which you'd say yes, I think it's necessary?

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Even if you are 100% correct, the issue is would you under ANY circumstances condone it as necessary? Is there some point at which you'd say yes, I think it's necessary?

In my opinion.......

Torture should NEVER be used under ANY circumstances !

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We can't fully unload on the Americans, just look at Manning and what he is going through to tell the world what was going on,

I don't think too many people were too surprised, It was war at the end of the day, but the idea we have to be civilised in what has to be one of the most uncivil pastimes is kind of absurd

I tend to think that after the fact whistle blowing and what is after the fact by over a decade has to have some kind of ulterior motive.

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I know this will probably make me sound immoral but I don't really care if it does, but I don't have a single problem with torture, especially of terrorist. I noticed there is a notion on here that all torture does is get someone to say anything you want them to. I will admit with torture you can get that to happen but with someone trained and experienced with torture you will get just the truth and I highly doubt we have untrained inexperienced people administrating any of this.

Then you have the point that And Then makes about moral issue of torturing a few to save the many, to me it seems rather obvious that it is better to torture them to save our citizens/soldiers lives. I just can't understand why someone wouldn't torture them, are we honestly at the point where we are more concerned about the welfare of our enemy then we are the lives of our own people.

Lastly so many people here seem to think that we can defeat radical Islam and maintain this moral high ground which I find laughable at best and concerning at worst. You can not win a war by keeping the moral high ground, it just can not be done and to my knowledge has never been done. If we want to win this war we must be willing to do whatever it takes, holding back just presents weakness the enemy can exploit. It is clear that we can not get them to like us and be friends with us so we must do the next best thing and make them absolutely fear us to the point they would not dare to even think of an attack on the western world.

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You can not win a war by keeping the moral high ground

Sadly this is true...

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I know this will probably make me sound immoral but I don't really care if it does, but I don't have a single problem with torture, especially of terrorist. I noticed there is a notion on here that all torture does is get someone to say anything you want them to. I will admit with torture you can get that to happen but with someone trained and experienced with torture you will get just the truth and I highly doubt we have untrained inexperienced people administrating any of this.

Then you have the point that And Then makes about moral issue of torturing a few to save the many, to me it seems rather obvious that it is better to torture them to save our citizens/soldiers lives. I just can't understand why someone wouldn't torture them, are we honestly at the point where we are more concerned about the welfare of our enemy then we are the lives of our own people.

Lastly so many people here seem to think that we can defeat radical Islam and maintain this moral high ground which I find laughable at best and concerning at worst. You can not win a war by keeping the moral high ground, it just can not be done and to my knowledge has never been done. If we want to win this war we must be willing to do whatever it takes, holding back just presents weakness the enemy can exploit. It is clear that we can not get them to like us and be friends with us so we must do the next best thing and make them absolutely fear us to the point they would not dare to even think of an attack on the western world.

What make's You think that torture is going to make any blind bit of difference to fighting radical's of any nationality, wether it is Islam radical's or otherwise ?

Torturing people will only make MORE radical's and freedom fighter's/ terrorist's (one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter) in some/most (if not all) of the freedom fighter's/terrorist's eyes it is us that is the terrorist's, we are the one's that like going to war or starting war's with them or their countries

What characteristics would You say qualifies a person as a terrorist ?

You yourself could be classed as a terrorist now or in the future just for thinking a certain way or acting a certain way, or because You do not conform to what the government or whoever see's fit, it could be anything from.......

Survivalist literature (fictional books such as "Patriots" and "One Second After" are mentioned by name)

Self-sufficiency (stockpiling food, ammo, hand tools, medical supplies)

Fear of economic collapse (buying gold and barter items)

Religious views concerning the book of Revelation (apocalypse, anti-Christ)

Expressed fears of Big Brother or big government

Homeschooling

Belief in a New World Order conspiracy"

Quoted from this topic http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=244559

Would You want to be tortured ? (I highly doubt it)

I try my best to live my life by "Treating other's as I would like to be treated" and I would NOT like to be tortured, and I would NOT expect or accept anyone else being tortured either no matter what the circumstances or even if they are an enemy.......

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What make's You think that torture is going to make any blind bit of difference to fighting radical's of any nationality, wether it is Islam radical's or otherwise ?

Torturing people will only make MORE radical's and freedom fighter's/ terrorist's (one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter) in some/most (if not all) of the freedom fighter's/terrorist's eyes it is us that is the terrorist's, we are the one's that like going to war or starting war's with them or their countries

What characteristics would You say qualifies a person as a terrorist ?

You yourself could be classed as a terrorist now or in the future just for thinking a certain way or acting a certain way, or because You do not conform to what the government or whoever see's fit, it could be anything from.......

Quoted from this topic http://www.unexplain...howtopic=244559

Would You want to be tortured ? (I highly doubt it)

I try my best to live my life by "Treating other's as I would like to be treated" and I would NOT like to be tortured, and I would NOT expect or accept anyone else being tortured either no matter what the circumstances or even if they are an enemy.......

The difference it makes is that we can get information from them on either their next planned attack or where important targets are located. That alone would make a rather large difference in fighting any type of radicals. I don't really care much who is called a terrorist or if I am a terrorist or really any labels, all I really care about is that my country is at war with radical Islam and that I want my side to win.

I do not care about creating more terrorist/freedom fighters/anything else you want to call them, the reality is that the Middle East is not going to become friends with the west, since we can not become their friends we must do the next best thing and make them fear us to such a degree that they will not attack us again. If that involves us torturing them then so be it, it is better they fear us and we win this war then keeping on this perpetual halfhearted war because we are afraid of losing some moral high ground.

Of course no one wants to be tortured but it doesn't change the fact that if done correctly torture is an effective method of getting information and information is very important in winning a war.

Your way of living life is very nice and moral and you will get to keep the moral high ground and all that other moral and ethical matters but that way of life does not win wars and we are in a war. The reality of the situation is that we are at war and trying to cling to such moral views is making the conflict that much harder to win and costing far more lives on both sides then if we didn't worry about having the moral high ground to begin with.

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I know this will probably make me sound immoral but I don't really care if it does, but I don't have a single problem with torture, especially of terrorist. I noticed there is a notion on here that all torture does is get someone to say anything you want them to. I will admit with torture you can get that to happen but with someone trained and experienced with torture you will get just the truth and I highly doubt we have untrained inexperienced people administrating any of this.

Then you have the point that And Then makes about moral issue of torturing a few to save the many, to me it seems rather obvious that it is better to torture them to save our citizens/soldiers lives. I just can't understand why someone wouldn't torture them, are we honestly at the point where we are more concerned about the welfare of our enemy then we are the lives of our own people.

Lastly so many people here seem to think that we can defeat radical Islam and maintain this moral high ground which I find laughable at best and concerning at worst. You can not win a war by keeping the moral high ground, it just can not be done and to my knowledge has never been done. If we want to win this war we must be willing to do whatever it takes, holding back just presents weakness the enemy can exploit. It is clear that we can not get them to like us and be friends with us so we must do the next best thing and make them absolutely fear us to the point they would not dare to even think of an attack on the western world.

Unfortunately, you views make you a terrorist. Luckily i have my water boarding kit right here, so if you don't mind i will hold you without trial for ten years whilst periodically torturing you

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I do not care about creating more terrorist/freedom fighters/anything else you want to call them, the reality is that the Middle East is not going to become friends with the west, since we can not become their friends we must do the next best thing and make them fear us to such a degree that they will not attack us again.

Of course no one wants to be tortured but it doesn't change the fact that if done correctly torture is an effective method of getting information and information is very important in winning a war.

Would You become friend's with someone that keep's on causing trouble ? No ? I did not think so...... So why would the middle east become friend's with the western countrie's ? what incentive have they had to be friendly ?

Torturing people is guaranteed to make thing's a lot worse and NOT any better

IF the government talked to people and treated people the same way they would like to be treated (with respect ?), maybe then their would be NO war's and no need to torture people for information

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In my opinion.......

Torture should NEVER be used under ANY circumstances !

So if your wife, child, parents - all you love were definitely going to be killed by a nuclear bomb and a suspect could tell you where it was - you wouldn't torture him because it is immoral to do so? And what of HIS immorality to kill so many innocents? I realize this may seem like an impossible scenario but i don't really think it is. In fact I think it's quite probable to happen at some point. If you can honestly answer yes then I think you are a person of astounding gravity and selflessness. I'd save my family no matter what it took. And no apologies to anyone.

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