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supervike

Wealth Distribution.

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It seems your fellow American here are wanabe millionaires who hate anyone who isn't also a wanabe, no wonder you are fracturing apart.

Br Cornelius

Actually what they hate, in secret and denial, is that the system is currently failing. Because there are too many "have nots" to the "those that do have"; and the numbers are increasing because of overpopulation. See, when there are too many "have nots", those "have nots" tend to cause problems for the "those that do have". Because the "have nots" start looking towards the government for help. That puts the "those that do have" into a minority and of course the "have nots" into a majority. Now the "those who do have" can't have that going on, oh no, no ,no, that's bad vodoo. Because the "those who do have" have worked long and hard to getting to the better lifestyle they now have for themselves; also because they figured out who's ass to kiss along the way and what wealthy company to keep through certain financial religious circles. And because all that accumulated wealth so far, sometimes through ill gotten gains, might be taken away from them. So instead of blaming the system, which was really meant only to work for half of the people in a smaller population, the blame therefore, goes to the "have nots". Number one; for being born (too damn many of them!). And number two; for not getting anywhere in life and showing that the system works, despite the truth that it does not after a certain population point is reached.

They have been depending on system to work for them for so long, but it's too late now. Fate is catching up with them and the rest of us. As you indicated in previous posts, it's only a matter of time before everything comes crashing down here in the U.S. and I will add to it, that we shall go the way of Rome. History does repeat itself.

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You make the classic mistake of believing I am as socialist simply because i don't agree with your one size fits all perspective. Wrong !

Your going to claim that American workers could ever be price competitive with Chinese workers, and that the American corportaions weren't been driven by simple market imperative.

I think your a fantasist.

In a globalized market - your average Jo can never set up a manufacturing business that can compete with foreign imports. Simple. No amount wishing is going to get that man to set up a successful small manufacturing concern when he can never produce a price competitive product.

Br Cornelius

Man I've read enough of your posts to realize that you're for anything but limited government and American freedom.

Fanaticist? What'd I say that's fanatical? Lets click on a global warming/climate change thread. We'll see who practices fanaticism.

As for the rest. Why does success and business automatically mean mega global and manufacturing? You're average joe like myself can find tons of ways to be self employed. I did it and I'm growing every year. Actually now it's we are growing very year and the bulk of my work comes from a company who started out pretty much the same way back in the 70's and now they're a multi-million dollar apartment rental company who keeps growing and they'll never have to compete with china either. If the government stopped scaring and keeping people into mediocrity even more small businesses would take off. I'll take an America with more small businesses any day to an America with a few businesses that go global. Besides, measuring the ability to succeed next to the ability to create mega-big company is asinine. First, it's incredibly hard to do no matter what. Second, most people just aren't going to have the desire or ability to do such a thing. If you're having a tough time then pick up a hammer and find a way to make some money with it. I did and I was supposed to be a graphic designer. Had to do what I had to do and I'm so much better off for it and I'll never have to compete with a global market and I'll never go global.

Actually what they hate, in secret and denial, is that the system is currently failing. Because there are too many "have nots" to the "those that do have"; and the numbers are increasing because of overpopulation. See, when there are too many "have nots", those "have nots" tend to cause problems for the "those that do have". Because the "have nots" start looking towards the government for help. That puts the "those that do have" into a minority and of course the "have nots" into a majority. Now the "those who do have" can't have that going on, oh no, no ,no, that's bad vodoo. Because the "those who do have" have worked long and hard to getting to the better lifestyle they now have for themselves; also because they figured out who's ass to kiss along the way and what wealthy company to keep through certain financial religious circles. And because all that accumulated wealth so far, sometimes through ill gotten gains, might be taken away from them. So instead of blaming the system, which was really meant only to work for half of the people in a smaller population, the blame therefore, goes to the "have nots". Number one; for being born (too damn many of them!). And number two; for not getting anywhere in life and showing that the system works, despite the truth that it does not after a certain population point is reached.

They have been depending on system to work for them for so long, but it's too late now. Fate is catching up with them and the rest of us. As you indicated in previous posts, it's only a matter of time before everything comes crashing down here in the U.S. and I will add to it, that we shall go the way of Rome. History does repeat itself.

I'm not sure about a lot of that except for one thing. I too have been thinking the wealth gap is due to a large and ever growing population. Basically, the lowest income people keep popping out multiple kids at a time. If every poor person has 3 kids to everybody else's 1 kid then of course the gap will grow because there will be more poor kids and that shrinks the middle class because they aren't multiplying as much and they have to keep paying for the poor kids who are growing like a colony of ants. The government encourages such behavior through entitlements and the middle class eventually wears down by attrition.

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I'm not sure about a lot of that except for one thing. I too have been thinking the wealth gap is due to a large and ever growing population. Basically, the lowest income people keep popping out multiple kids at a time. If every poor person has 3 kids to everybody else's 1 kid then of course the gap will grow because there will be more poor kids and that shrinks the middle class because they aren't multiplying as much and they have to keep paying for the poor kids who are growing like a colony of ants. The government encourages such behavior through entitlements and the middle class eventually wears down by attrition.

Which wouldn't be much of a problem now, if religious groups and religious parents would have allowed the government to pass out birth control contraceptives long ago, to students from middle school and on up; even at the local churches. There are more groups, organizations and people to blame, than just the government. The catholics come to mind as one of them, with their anti-birth control nonsense.

Of course there would always be a few kids who don't listen and suffer the consequences of having unprotected sex, but I'll bet you ten to one that teenage pregnancies would have been a lot lower in the past 40 or 50 years and the current population less than 300 million now, if a anti-sex education religious mentality for kids hadn't gotten in the way of the government trying to prevent teenage pregnancy through the years. Never-the-less, that is just one small issue of a bigger clusterF in this country, as elsewhere in other countries across the globe.

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Posted (edited)

Man I've read enough of your posts to realize that you're for anything but limited government and American freedom.

Fanaticist? What'd I say that's fanatical? Lets click on a global warming/climate change thread. We'll see who practices fanaticism.

As for the rest. Why does success and business automatically mean mega global and manufacturing? You're average joe like myself can find tons of ways to be self employed. I did it and I'm growing every year. Actually now it's we are growing very year and the bulk of my work comes from a company who started out pretty much the same way back in the 70's and now they're a multi-million dollar apartment rental company who keeps growing and they'll never have to compete with china either. If the government stopped scaring and keeping people into mediocrity even more small businesses would take off. I'll take an America with more small businesses any day to an America with a few businesses that go global. Besides, measuring the ability to succeed next to the ability to create mega-big company is asinine. First, it's incredibly hard to do no matter what. Second, most people just aren't going to have the desire or ability to do such a thing. If you're having a tough time then pick up a hammer and find a way to make some money with it. I did and I was supposed to be a graphic designer. Had to do what I had to do and I'm so much better off for it and I'll never have to compete with a global market and I'll never go global.

I'm not sure about a lot of that except for one thing. I too have been thinking the wealth gap is due to a large and ever growing population. Basically, the lowest income people keep popping out multiple kids at a time. If every poor person has 3 kids to everybody else's 1 kid then of course the gap will grow because there will be more poor kids and that shrinks the middle class because they aren't multiplying as much and they have to keep paying for the poor kids who are growing like a colony of ants. The government encourages such behavior through entitlements and the middle class eventually wears down by attrition.

As America and the UK have proven - you cannot build a sustainable economy based on importing consumer goods and offering services as the only means of business. Your model of how things work is the reason why America is broken. It gave up on making things (apart from the protected military industrial complex) and decided it could build an economy on services and financial services. Broken.

When you can actually make a factually based statement about Climate Change rather than a knee jerk political piece of rhetoric I will take you seriously as a commentator on the greatest crisis your country faces to its continued existence.

I repeat, your a fantasist who really has no understanding of the currents of history flowing under the surface and destroying your country as a viable economic entity. Always looking for an easy victim to blame for complex problems. Your kind will guarantee that the massive reforms needed to put the Western world back on a secure footing will never be started and you will see an ever greater divide between rich and poor, and an ever increasing paramilitarization of your country to maintain an unsustainable status quo.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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Posted (edited)

Which wouldn't be much of a problem now, if religious groups and religious parents would have allowed the government to pass out birth control contraceptives long ago, to students from middle school and on up; even at the local churches. There are more groups, organizations and people to blame, than just the government. The catholics come to mind as one of them, with their anti-birth control nonsense.

Of course there would always be a few kids who don't listen and suffer the consequences of having unprotected sex, but I'll bet you ten to one that teenage pregnancies would have been a lot lower in the past 40 or 50 years and the current population less than 300 million now, if a anti-sex education religious mentality for kids hadn't gotten in the way of the government trying to prevent teenage pregnancy through the years. Never-the-less, that is just one small issue of a bigger clusterF in this country, as elsewhere in other countries across the globe.

Freakanomics explains why freely available abortion in 1970's America caused the massive crash in crime in the 90's as poor people chose to not have children they couldn't support well. Even the poor know what is best for them and for most that means smaller families creating less of a burden on themselves. The right-wing tried to maintain that it was because of greater spending on the police force.

Blame the victim is about the only piece of analysis which the right wing is good at, and it rarely solves the problems.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius
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Posted (edited)

In the 1950s, corporations paid nearly a third of the federal government’s bills. Last year, thanks to the antics of Pfizer and other examples of overly creative accounting, corporate income taxes accounted for less than a tenth of Uncle Sam’s total revenue.

http://thecontributo...corporate-taxes

This really put paid to the lie that Neo-Liberal economics is the system that lifts all boats. It seems some lift more than others.

What that actually means is that average wage earners (employees) and small to medium business owners are paying an increasing share of the tax take to support the wealthiest corporations in the world.

For those who would question why big corporations should be paying taxes, they wouldn't be able to conduct their business without the massive infrasturctural investment of their host nation. That's road, education, water, law courts, environmental clean up infrastructure (superfund) - the list is nearly endless.

For those who would argue for laxer regulation. Let me give one tiny example from my own personal field of expertise and experience. The local farmers have habit of illegally emptying their slurry tanks into local streams and lakes. They do this because it is the cheapest way of dealing with their pollution.

What are the costs to the state;

-slurry pollution causes nutrient enrichment of public waters which means that it becomes more costly to treat water to drinkable standards.

-Slurry carries Ecoli, gardia and multiple other humans pathogens. These are difficult to adequately treat in water treatment plants so it is a quite common occurrence for whole districts to be put on boil notices and the extra costs to the state for cleaning up the water is significant.

-People end up in hospital which costs many thousands of Euro's to deal with.

These are all costs which have been externalized onto the state so that the farmer can save a few Euro's.

This is a tiny example of what happens on every level with industry and is why the current republican anti-EPA fetish is so dangerous and counterproductive. Deregulation means that business will be compelled to chase the lowest costs and pollute their neighbourhood or be unable to compete.

We need industry to be tightly regulated or by simple business economics they will pollute and externalize their costs onto the public tax-payer. In the end it is cheaper for society to deal with the problem through adequate regulation at source than to deal with the consequence of allowing industry to load the public with their costs.

The same logic is equally applicable to the Financial industry. We would have saved billions/trillions if the markets had have been adequately regulated and the credit bubble had have been stopped before it became dangerous. Remember that those at the top of the heap have profited massively by the collapse of the markets which resulted from deregulation - and this has been another example of massive wealth transfer from the majority to the minority.

The very idea that a market let rip will produce the best outcomes for society is so much magical thinking that you would have to be a religious type fanatic to really believe it in the face of an avalanche of evidence to the contrary.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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Posted (edited)

As America and the UK have proven - you cannot build a sustainable economy based on importing consumer goods and offering services as the only means of business. Your model of how things work is the reason why America is broken. It gave up on making things (apart from the protected military industrial complex) and decided it could build an economy on services and financial services. Broken.

When you can actually make a factually based statement about Climate Change rather than a knee jerk political piece of rhetoric I will take you seriously as a commentator on the greatest crisis your country faces to its continued existence.

I repeat, your a fantasist who really has no understanding of the currents of history flowing under the surface and destroying your country as a viable economic entity. Always looking for an easy victim to blame for complex problems. Your kind will guarantee that the massive reforms needed to put the Western world back on a secure footing will never be started and you will see an ever greater divide between rich and poor, and an ever increasing paramilitarization of your country to maintain an unsustainable status quo.

Br Cornelius

Government is solely to blame. Nah, you're right. Over-regulation and overtaxation are the key to job creation. What else can one man do? I've started a business not from desire up out of necessity. I buy everything American that I possibly can, employee several people who depend on me to remain responsible, provide a service with skills that will be useful in any economic climate, pay my absurd share of taxes, give victims a shot though they always fail, pay my bills and loans, obey the law... And it's my kind who'll create demise? Maybe if I could be regulated a little more and given a tax hike I'll do better things.

I am not fanatical. I am a productive member of society. You don't need to envision and create a large manufacturing industrial complex to be one. I see any effect man may have on this planet as temporary or non existent. Climate changes are natural. I don't know of any human pollution during the dinosaur era or the ice age era. The earth is big and strong and will over come anything we throw at it. That's why I don't think twice about my carbon footprint. It doesn't really exist. I don't buy any vehicle that doesn't have a V-8 and don't feel guilty about it either.

Edited by -Mr_Fess-
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Government is solely to blame. Nah, you're right. Over-regulation and overtaxation are the key to job creation. What else can one man do? I've started a business not from desire up out of necessity. I buy everything American that I possibly can, employee several people who depend on me to remain responsible, provide a service with skills that will be useful in any economic climate, pay my absurd share of taxes, give victims a shot though they always fail, pay my bills and loans, obey the law... And it's my kind who'll create demise? Maybe if I could be regulated a little more and given a tax hike I'll do better things.

I am not fanatical. I am a productive member of society. You don't need to envision and create a large manufacturing industrial complex to be one. I see any effect man may have on this planet as temporary or non existent. Climate changes are natural. I don't know of any human pollution during the dinosaur era or the ice age era. The earth is big and strong and will over come anything we throw at it. That's why I don't think twice about my carbon footprint. It doesn't really exist. I don't buy any vehicle that doesn't have a V-8 and don't feel guilty about it either.

What you and others have said about the government doesn't explain how all the wealth is pooling towards the upper 1%. If anything it is just a complaint on how the government is stopping you from going to the upper 1%.

Lets look at this another way. Let's assume that you work 50-60hrs a week for your business, do all the paperwork, supervise all you employees, deal with customers and subcontractors and the like. At the end of the year you take home say 60k-100k.

Now imagine me. I'm a bum, I play call of duty all day or otherwise just waste my time. But lucky me, I got one million in inheritance when my great uncle Montgomery Moneybags died. I am lazy but not dumb so I stuck it in some mutual funds or whatnot.

If that mutual fund returned 6-10% I would have the same income as your 60k-100k for your work. But hey it gets even better for me. I only have to pay 15-20% capitals gains tax compared to your income tax/payroll tax/social security/etc. Heck that gives me more money than you to re-invest, expand my business, or buy more video games.

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Government is solely to blame. Nah, you're right. Over-regulation and overtaxation are the key to job creation. What else can one man do? I've started a business not from desire up out of necessity. I buy everything American that I possibly can, employee several people who depend on me to remain responsible, provide a service with skills that will be useful in any economic climate, pay my absurd share of taxes, give victims a shot though they always fail, pay my bills and loans, obey the law... And it's my kind who'll create demise? Maybe if I could be regulated a little more and given a tax hike I'll do better things.

I am not fanatical. I am a productive member of society. You don't need to envision and create a large manufacturing industrial complex to be one. I see any effect man may have on this planet as temporary or non existent. Climate changes are natural. I don't know of any human pollution during the dinosaur era or the ice age era. The earth is big and strong and will over come anything we throw at it. That's why I don't think twice about my carbon footprint. It doesn't really exist. I don't buy any vehicle that doesn't have a V-8 and don't feel guilty about it either.

You have made the perfect argument for the super rich and mega corporations to pay their fair share and lift the burden (where it has fallen as of the last 40years) from the shoulders of the productive middle section of society. You are defending the wrong people, the people who stacked the deck against you and lined their pockets with more than their fare share of the nations wealth. You have been robbed by a cozy cartel of corporations, bankers and government.

I really think you would be better served throwing in your lot with the unemployed and hard working middle classes against the parasitic super rich and corporate fascistic spongers.

I think you have got it all wrong, its not government per-say which is the problem its the form of government you have which is quasi-fascistic in nature (in the Italian sense). You should really do some research on the trajectory of the Italian Fascistic state and how it loaded the citizens with private businesses debts through "privatization" to favoured mega-corporations. The parallels are uncanny and the read is very enlightening as to why your in such a mess over there.

Br Cornelius

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What you and others have said about the government doesn't explain how all the wealth is pooling towards the upper 1%. If anything it is just a complaint on how the government is stopping you from going to the upper 1%.

Lets look at this another way. Let's assume that you work 50-60hrs a week for your business, do all the paperwork, supervise all you employees, deal with customers and subcontractors and the like. At the end of the year you take home say 60k-100k.

Now imagine me. I'm a bum, I play call of duty all day or otherwise just waste my time. But lucky me, I got one million in inheritance when my great uncle Montgomery Moneybags died. I am lazy but not dumb so I stuck it in some mutual funds or whatnot.

If that mutual fund returned 6-10% I would have the same income as your 60k-100k for your work. But hey it gets even better for me. I only have to pay 15-20% capitals gains tax compared to your income tax/payroll tax/social security/etc. Heck that gives me more money than you to re-invest, expand my business, or buy more video games.

The government isn't stopping me from that. They just aren't making it easy. It's not their job to make it easy but it also shouldn't be their job to make it hard. Even if the gov wasn't in the way it just isn't easy to get rich. Lots of hard work and sometimes luck. Just this last month we made our biggest capital investment ever. Bought a box truck and a gutter machine. We can make any length seamless gutters on site. Anyways, I got a random phone call from a local Lowes home improvement store. They're looking for subcontractors. Funny thing is they're especially looking for someone to do seamless gutters as they don't have any. I was shocked. What are the odds? That's luck because I've never dealt with that particular Lowes and I don't know how they got my number. Guess I'm on a list somewhere. We don't advertise.

As for the inheritance, that wouldn't/doesn't bother me a bit. It's just how things go sometimes. I don't envy. I just hope one day I can have the expendable cash to make such investments myself. After all, it'll be made with money that's already been taxed. Also, that investment likely creates jobs and productivity. Invest in housing and you've provided jobs for contractors like me as well as those who make my tools and materials and real estate agents. It's good for the economy even if you are a lazy bum. Chances are though that someone as lazy as you describe would likely blow through that inheritance which is also ok for the economy as your infusing that cash into businesses with all your fun purchases. You'd be sure to make game developers happy as well as a few car salesmen too. Your lazy butt is going to put food on someone's table in some way.

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You have made the perfect argument for the super rich and mega corporations to pay their fair share and lift the burden (where it has fallen as of the last 40years) from the shoulders of the productive middle section of society. You are defending the wrong people, the people who stacked the deck against you and lined their pockets with more than their fare share of the nations wealth. You have been robbed by a cozy cartel of corporations, bankers and government.

I really think you would be better served throwing in your lot with the unemployed and hard working middle classes against the parasitic super rich and corporate fascistic spongers.

I think you have got it all wrong, its not government per-say which is the problem its the form of government you have which is quasi-fascistic in nature (in the Italian sense). You should really do some research on the trajectory of the Italian Fascistic state and how it loaded the citizens with private businesses debts through "privatization" to favoured mega-corporations. The parallels are uncanny and the read is very enlightening as to why your in such a mess over there.

Br Cornelius

Look man, I'm basically a blue collar working man and don't really feel like getting into the Italian fascistic state. I've got other things to worry about. I'm not naive to the less than commendable acts of big corporations but there are plenty of really big companies that aren't quite mega corporations that I'm sure would do business here if they weren't taxed and regulated out of competitiveness. Big corps may call a lot of shots but I still blame the lawmakers who've chosen the bribes over what's right. So in the end it is the government who succumbs to the corps and makes the laws so I blame them. You can blame the rich corps but could you expect them not to try and use their money to their advantage? That's the nature of the beast. Our elected officials are supposed to be above that. I know that's also nature but in the end it is they who make the rules official.

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Look man, I'm basically a blue collar working man and don't really feel like getting into the Italian fascistic state. I've got other things to worry about. I'm not naive to the less than commendable acts of big corporations but there are plenty of really big companies that aren't quite mega corporations that I'm sure would do business here if they weren't taxed and regulated out of competitiveness. Big corps may call a lot of shots but I still blame the lawmakers who've chosen the bribes over what's right. So in the end it is the government who succumbs to the corps and makes the laws so I blame them. You can blame the rich corps but could you expect them not to try and use their money to their advantage? That's the nature of the beast. Our elected officials are supposed to be above that. I know that's also nature but in the end it is they who make the rules official.

And you suffer as a consequence. its only you as a citizen who can do anything about it.

My point here is, you are blaming the victims of a system that went bad 40years ago. By not been more outraged at the perpetrators you are part of the problem and you will only see the situation get worse as more wealth and power is concentrated into an ever smaller cartel of the rich and influential. The inevitable logic of the progression you are on is that you will either become one of the most favoured companies or you will be driven out of business by punitive use of the corrupt states power to look after its own. i don't fancy your chances.

Unless people like you take an active interest in dismantling the power of the state-corporate complex you will be its inevitable victim, as the citizenry of the Italian fascist state increasingly became the victims of their own nation.

Br Cornelius

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And you suffer as a consequence. its only you as a citizen who can do anything about it.

My point here is, you are blaming the victims of a system that went bad 40years ago. By not been more outraged at the perpetrators you are part of the problem and you will only see the situation get worse as more wealth and power is concentrated into an ever smaller cartel of the rich and influential. The inevitable logic of the progression you are on is that you will either become one of the most favoured companies or you will be driven out of business by punitive use of the corrupt states power to look after its own. i don't fancy your chances.

Unless people like you take an active interest in dismantling the power of the state-corporate complex you will be its inevitable victim, as the citizenry of the Italian fascist state increasingly became the victims of their own nation.

Br Cornelius

It's obvious we live in different worlds but I can only do so much. I'm pretty busy. I'd rather see a dismantling of the federal reserve. They're the spooks who really call all shots and screw with and steal our money.

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Yes, very interesting, but very uninformative.

How did the top 1% EARN that money?

How did the poor end up and stay poor?

How many of "the poor" stay poor because they don't want to actually have to work and know if they remain poor then the government will take care of them?

The top 1% ? Donald Trumps kids, grand kids, and their grand kids, are set for life.......They were born into it, they were the lucky sperm. Same with most of the upper / rich familes out there. Once you are " in ", you are " in " .........Now, another chance is being a close friend to one of these " upper " people. They can hand you a nice salaried position in the company, where you can mingle with other wealthy people, and retain that status. Now, your kids hit the lottery.

Now, take a kid born to parents that worked very hard to support their family. Served in the Army for 35 years, taught JROTC in High School, while the mother finally had to get a part time job to help out. The kids are good, not poor, but not wealthy or even near it. They have a slight chance at getting a scholorship for college, but not a lot of a chance. They also work part time, to make car payments, and lose focus and hope of getting that chance......These people do not have those " upper class " yuppie family or friends to help them out.

Now, take kids growing up in poverty......This would take a miracle.

As for some " poor " people not wanting to work. Blame the State Governments, not them. Although, I agree, they should at least try, and most do. Some do not, because they can actually make more being on welfare and such, then working a $12.00 a hour job.

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You have made the perfect argument for the super rich and mega corporations to pay their fair share and lift the burden (where it has fallen as of the last 40years) from the shoulders of the productive middle section of society. You are defending the wrong people, the people who stacked the deck against you and lined their pockets with more than their fare share of the nations wealth. You have been robbed by a cozy cartel of corporations, bankers and government.

I really think you would be better served throwing in your lot with the unemployed and hard working middle classes against the parasitic super rich and corporate fascistic spongers.

I think you have got it all wrong, its not government per-say which is the problem its the form of government you have which is quasi-fascistic in nature (in the Italian sense). You should really do some research on the trajectory of the Italian Fascistic state and how it loaded the citizens with private businesses debts through "privatization" to favoured mega-corporations. The parallels are uncanny and the read is very enlightening as to why your in such a mess over there.

Br Cornelius

Fascism - This is when a state goes xenophobic, promoting Jingoism and conquering others. It has nothing to do with economics and isnt even remotely similar to capitalism which is an economic system.

Capitalism - The world has limited resources meaning their distribution needs to be prioritised. The method of prioritisation is cost which reflects a resources availability and the demand for it.

You are constructing non-truthful strawman arguments in your mind to support a false highly distorted perception of capitalism, corporations and the wealthy.

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The fundamental problem in our country is that people are beginning to think they are entitled to the wealth of others.

Its interesting because the top tier establishment, those with the majority of the wealth have always had that perspective, when you consider the latest banking crisis, Enron, Madoff, Lehman Bro, Cendant, MF Global, Worldcom, Fannie Mae, Health south, Tyco Int, Qwest Comms just to name a few of the fraud cases where trillions of $ were involved, not to mention the cases under investigation in WT7 or Libor where more trillions of dollars have been wiped of the value of everything and even more trillions have been used of tax payers money to bail out the banks.

I assume then that the poor have woken up.

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Its interesting because the top tier establishment, those with the majority of the wealth have always had that perspective, when you consider the latest banking crisis, Enron, Madoff, Lehman Bro, Cendant, MF Global, Worldcom, Fannie Mae, Health south, Tyco Int, Qwest Comms just to name a few of the fraud cases where trillions of $ were involved, not to mention the cases under investigation in WT7 or Libor where more trillions of dollars have been wiped of the value of everything and even more trillions have been used of tax payers money to bail out the banks.

I assume then that the poor have woken up.

Amen !

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Freakanomics explains why freely available abortion in 1970's America caused the massive crash in crime in the 90's as poor people chose to not have children they couldn't support well. Even the poor know what is best for them and for most that means smaller families creating less of a burden on themselves. The right-wing tried to maintain that it was because of greater spending on the police force.

Blame the victim is about the only piece of analysis which the right wing is good at, and it rarely solves the problems.

Br Cornelius

Freakanomics?!

Damn, Cornelius! You made me haft to go and look that one up. Interesting, BTW. ;)

Its interesting because the top tier establishment, those with the majority of the wealth have always had that perspective, when you consider the latest banking crisis, Enron, Madoff, Lehman Bro, Cendant, MF Global, Worldcom, Fannie Mae, Health south, Tyco Int, Qwest Comms just to name a few of the fraud cases where trillions of $ were involved, not to mention the cases under investigation in WT7 or Libor where more trillions of dollars have been wiped of the value of everything and even more trillions have been used of tax payers money to bail out the banks.

I assume then that the poor have woken up.

Double Amen!

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Posted (edited)

Fascism - This is when a state goes xenophobic, promoting Jingoism and conquering others. It has nothing to do with economics and isnt even remotely similar to capitalism which is an economic system.

Capitalism - The world has limited resources meaning their distribution needs to be prioritised. The method of prioritisation is cost which reflects a resources availability and the demand for it.

You are constructing non-truthful strawman arguments in your mind to support a false highly distorted perception of capitalism, corporations and the wealthy.

Italian fascism is about the state merging with favoured corporations for the good of the country. It has lots of other aspects, which America shares in common, such as the importance of the military - the belief in the innate superiority of the nation state etc, the will to bend human rights of the individual to meet the needs of the state. The belief in the superiority of elites to manage all national affairs.

You should really look into the people who run your country(the Bush dynasty is a key player here) , their sympathies, the institutions they set up (the CIA in particular - very informative concerning Nazi sympathizers), their beliefs about how to access by force the resources they need.

You may disagree with my conclusions when you have looked into the matter a bit more deeply, but as far as I am concerned my belief rests on very firm foundations.

This is not a straw man position - it is one I have arrived at after studying these matters for years and seeing that you really don't live in the democracy you believe and you really don't have a country of free opportunity in the way you would like to imagine.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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Posted (edited)

Italian fascism is about the state merging with favoured corporations for the good of the country. It has lots of other aspects, which America shares in common, such as the importance of the military - the belief in the innate superiority of the nation state etc, the will to bend human rights of the individual to meet the needs of the state. The belief in the superiority of elites to manage all national affairs.

You should really look into the people who run your country(the Bush dynasty is a key player here) , their sympathies, the institutions they set up (the CIA in particular - very informative concerning Nazi sympathizers), their beliefs about how to access by force the resources they need.

You may disagree with my conclusions when you have looked into the matter a bit more deeply, but as far as I am concerned my belief rests on very firm foundations.

This is not a straw man position - it is one I have arrived at after studying these matters for years and seeing that you really don't live in the democracy you believe and you really don't have a country of free opportunity in the way you would like to imagine.

Br Cornelius

So because a fascist government in Italy decided to take ownership of some corporations somehow, and quite incrediably, you've managed to deduce capitalism and corporationism as being fascist.

Can you convince yourself the sky is green too?

Edited by Giant Killer B

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Posted (edited)

So because a fascist government in Italy decided to take ownership of some corporations somehow, and quite incrediably, you've managed to deduce capitalism and corporationism as being fascist.

Can you convince yourself the sky is green too?

I never claimed that Italy nationalized certain industries, they set up special relationships with private corporations which offered them protection and promotion by the state in return for support for the states greater objectives.

I don't think you understand what I am talking about. There is an excellent article which goes into detail charting Americas decent into Fascism, I will see if I can dig it out.

Fascism is a philosphy about how to organize society and Germany and Italy in the 1940's are just two examples of how that played out.

Not what I was looking for, but a nice simple summery;

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There is far more forensic information on who were the exact players and the parts they played.

Look into the characters who set up the CIA and notice that they all had connections to Nazi Germany. Notice also that Bush Senior was found to be using a network of extremist right wing political groups in the run up to his election, until he was rumbled by a journalist and he belatedly distanced himself from them.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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I don't think you understand what I am talking about.

No I think you're missing the point.

What one government did doesnt define capitalism for everybody else.

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No I think you're missing the point.

What one government did doesnt define capitalism for everybody else.

I am talking about the American government of now - a corruption of capitalism to a monopoly supporting fascistic state. The closest historic analogue is Italy in the 1940's.

Br Cornelius

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you really don't live in the democracy you believe and you really don't have a country of free opportunity in the way you would like to imagine.

Br Cornelius

So true.....

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Which wouldn't be much of a problem now, if religious groups and religious parents would have allowed the government to pass out birth control contraceptives long ago, to students from middle school and on up; even at the local churches. There are more groups, organizations and people to blame, than just the government. The catholics come to mind as one of them, with their anti-birth control nonsense.

Of course there would always be a few kids who don't listen and suffer the consequences of having unprotected sex, but I'll bet you ten to one that teenage pregnancies would have been a lot lower in the past 40 or 50 years and the current population less than 300 million now, if a anti-sex education religious mentality for kids hadn't gotten in the way of the government trying to prevent teenage pregnancy through the years. Never-the-less, that is just one small issue of a bigger clusterF in this country, as elsewhere in other countries across the globe.

Yeah, thats what the problem is...

Because the "religious kids" are just acting like rabbits compared to the non religious kids.

Give me a break.

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