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Abramelin

Ancient mysteries revealed in Turkmen desert

103 posts in this topic

Central Asian seals, seal impressions and parallels in Indus Script hieroglyphs

Seals/seal impressions from Mesopotamia and the Indus region have been found at Gonur Tepe in Turkmenistan.

About two dozen sealings and ten sealed bullae (some baked) have been discovered at Gonur and Togolok. I.S. Klotchkov suggests that signs on a potsherd of Gonur contain Elamite linear script. (Klotchkov, 1998, Signs on a potsherd from Gonur (on the question of the script used in Margiana), Ancient civilizations from Scythia to Siberia, 5(2): 165-176; cf. Klotchkov, IS, 1999, Glyptics of Margiana, Ancient civilizations from Scythia to Siberia, 6(2): 41-62.

Gonur and Toglok are type sites of BMAC - Bactria Margiana Archaeological Complex (ca. 2500 to 1500 BCE)extended over parts of northern Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, southern Uzbekistan, Tadjikistan, eastern Iran and Baluchistan.

Language of the BMAC

http://bharatkalyan9...mpressions.html

http://newindian.act...mentID=44925854

One more ancient lost civilization emerges.

Finds like these prove the fact that us humans do suffer Amnesia over long periods of time where we forget about entire civilizations until they re-emerge.

How many more such finds must be waiting out there.Sadly such wide scale archaeology is not possible in the Saraswati river delta as the place is still occupied today and has been built over many times.

Any idea how they died out?

I suspect a major war around 3000 BC which wiped out many civilizations simultaneously including the Indus Valley Civilization.Probably the first world war.

Mahabharata?

Can you post some pictures of the seals.

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gonur-altyndepemap.jpg

This map shows a triangular spread but it was actually a kite shaped spread with the fourth point lying somewhere around the Saraswati delta.

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My interest here is linguistic, and as far as I know the Indus Valley texts have not been translated and seem to be a linguistic isolate, neither Dravidian nor Indo-European (the language families of most of India today). Are you implying that the Indus valley civilizations were Indo-European or only that they influenced the Indo-Europeans of central Asia?

(In which case we would presume after they declined and the Indo-Europeans themselves came in, the change would not have been as drastic as is often thought).

I have long held the view that Buddhism and the other non-theistic religions of India stem from pre-Indo-European times, while the polytheism of Hinduism came in with the Indo-Europoean "invasions" -- more likely migrations --(i.e., the similarities of it with Greek and Persian and Norse myth systems -- except lacking the unique Indian ideas of rebirth and karma).

Another somewhat unrelated idea I've long suspected -- that the Indo-Europeans while in central Asia either invented or at least put to good use the wheeled cart, and this one thing goes a long way if not all the way to explaining their surprising wide-spread presence at the dawn of history.

It is more lappropriate to call them Indo Asian, there is no European presence so old in either of these sites. All these sites are in the ambit of Asia and Asia Minor. I believe that this find strengthens the Hypothesis that migrations if any were from the East to the West and not the other way round.

The IVC script is not deciphered hence we do not know for certain which language they spoke,but looking at the geography it is certain that they would have been speaking some sort of Vedic or Sanskrit.

It is entirely possible that the poly theistic religions of the Indo Asians was a Rig Vedic form of Hinduism and Zorastrianism.

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The term Indo-European derives from the fact of the modern-day distribution of the members of this language family. All modern European languages except Basque, Turkish, and the Finno-Hungarian languages are Indo-European, as well as most of the languages of Iran and Northern India.

There are traces of pre-Indo-European languages in Italy (Etruscan) and in Spain, but the Indo-European toungues dominated when we first get written records.

There has been debate where they originated from and why they came to be so widespread so early.

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One more ancient lost civilization emerges.

Finds like these prove the fact that us humans do suffer Amnesia over long periods of time where we forget about entire civilizations until they re-emerge.

How many more such finds must be waiting out there.Sadly such wide scale archaeology is not possible in the Saraswati river delta as the place is still occupied today and has been built over many times.

Any idea how they died out?

I suspect a major war around 3000 BC which wiped out many civilizations simultaneously including the Indus Valley Civilization.Probably the first world war.

Mahabharata?

Can you post some pictures of the seals.

This is an answer concerning Gonur Tepe:

The site was most likely abandoned after the Murghab River's course moved to the west. Sarianidi declares it as the 5th oldest civilization on earth not just a culture but a lost civilization.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=245911entry4726396

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All very interesting, I just checked out the Polish site, great images and information, thanks for sharing Abe.

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Gonor10.jpg

Fig. 1. A detailed view of the Gonur South archaeological complex , Turkmenistan.

Gonor2.jpg

Fig. 4. Göl detail from a 15th century east Anatolian rug. After Balpinar & Hirsch, Carpets: Vakıflar Museum Istanbul, Wesel 1998, pl.3

http://www.tcoletribalrugs.com/article58Imprints.html

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Gonor10.jpg

Fig. 1. A detailed view of the Gonur South archaeological complex , Turkmenistan.

Gonor2.jpg

Fig. 4. Göl detail from a 15th century east Anatolian rug. After Balpinar & Hirsch, Carpets: Vakıflar Museum Istanbul, Wesel 1998, pl.3

http://www.tcoletrib...58Imprints.html

Yes, I noticed the same pattern straight away but couldn't tell (in Polish) if the connection had been made, which I guessed it had. Nice pattern.

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Posted (edited)

Yes, I noticed the same pattern straight away but couldn't tell (in Polish) if the connection had been made, which I guessed it had. Nice pattern.

To me the ground plan of the fortress looks a lot like a mandala:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandala

(click to enlarge)

post-18246-0-95174800-1365573840_thumb.j

.

Edited by Abramelin

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It could be influence or just coincidence; no way to say and no need to anyway.

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It could be influence or just coincidence; no way to say and no need to anyway.

These people were in contact with the Indus Valley Civilization (and neighbours). Does a pattern like in my former post show up in the IVC?

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The thing is I'm sure one could find similar patterns from almost anywhere. Similarities don't prove much; what is needed is a systematic pattern of similarities and changes following identifiable rules. It takes years of study to become familiar enough to be able to be sure.

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Posted (edited)

The thing is I'm sure one could find similar patterns from almost anywhere. Similarities don't prove much; what is needed is a systematic pattern of similarities and changes following identifiable rules. It takes years of study to become familiar enough to be able to be sure.

But artifacts found in the region of Gonur Tepe showed they traded with the IVC. It wouldn't be a big thing to assume both peoples copied certain designs from each other.

It would be interesting to know if the Hittites to the west knew of them: they (almost) were contemporaries, maybe even related.

But that's just my idea, I don;t know if it's true.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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But artifacts found in the region of Gonur Tepe showed they traded with the IVC. It wouldn't be a big thing to assume both peoples copied certain designs from each other.

Well if they were neighbours and had trade relations that's a given really. The question is to which degree.

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The term Indo-European derives from the fact of the modern-day distribution of the members of this language family. All modern European languages except Basque, Turkish, and the Finno-Hungarian languages are Indo-European, as well as most of the languages of Iran and Northern India.

There are traces of pre-Indo-European languages in Italy (Etruscan) and in Spain, but the Indo-European toungues dominated when we first get written records.

There has been debate where they originated from and why they came to be so widespread so early.

But why would you include a derivative to represent the parent? Regarding pre Indo-European language in Spain,you would call it ancient Spanish and not Indo-Spanish.

The term Indo-European was used as it was thought that people from around the Caucasus in Europe migrated and populated Asia and spawned the language family,which is not the case.

A more appropriate way to put it would be: all modern European languages accept Basque,Turkish and Finno Hungarian have originated or derived from Asian languages and are called Indo-Iranian etc. (of course according to linguists).

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These people were in contact with the Indus Valley Civilization (and neighbours). Does a pattern like in my former post show up in the IVC?

These people and the harrappans etc represent different cities/kingdoms in the ambit of one civilization in my opinion.

Any clue to what these people referred to themselves as? Not the name given to them by modern day people.

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These people and the harrappans etc represent different cities/kingdoms in the ambit of one civilization in my opinion.

Any clue to what these people referred to themselves as? Not the name given to them by modern day people.

There is no proof of that being the case. Based on architecture alone it might even not have been the case.

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These people and the harrappans etc represent different cities/kingdoms in the ambit of one civilization in my opinion.

Any clue to what these people referred to themselves as? Not the name given to them by modern day people.

As soon as they find a form of writing they will know how they called themselves.

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Calling the language group "Indo-Iranian" (assuming we are talking about the same thing) would be both chauvinistic and misleading. All linguists I know about call it "Indo-European," but no one thinks they originated in Europe. The name is geographically descriptive, not having to do with where it came from.

We know very little about the languages that preceded the coming of the Indo-European languages to Europe. From earliest times the Greeks spoke an Indo-European tongue, as did the Italic and Latin tribes (except Etruscan which was an isolate). In Spain before Latin wiped them out the Spanish spoke a mix of Indo-European and other unidentified languages, of which only Basque persists. Modern Spanish, like French and Italian and Romanian and a few others, came much later (during the Middle Ages) out of Latin. Similarly, English and Dutch and modern German and the Scandanivian tounges (except Finnish of course) came out of Gothic-Germanic. There were all ultimately from Indo-European, as were the Celtic tongues, Hittite, Greek, Albanian, and a slew of others.

Whether the Indo-European tongues dominated via a mass migration or by assimilation is just not known; probably a combination.

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About who influenced whom, look at this artifact:

gonur-nnnn-tn_aid9379_20081016184807_733.jpeg

Skarb Kręgu Gonur – Bogtoharskie złoto z Tillya Tepe – pierwowzór Zaratusztriańskiego symbolu Ognia i Koła Życia (6.000 p.n.e.)

Gonur Circle treasure - gold Bogtoharskie of Tillya Tepe - original Zoroastrian symbol kiego Fire and the Wheel of Life (6000 BC)

http://slowianin.wordpress.com/tag/bronze-age/

Look at the age of the thing: 6000 BC !!

Did I get fooled by Google Translator??

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There is no proof of that being the case. Based on architecture alone it might even not have been the case.

What more proof do you want...there is archaeological proof that these cities were contemporary,there is proof that they were heavily engaged in trading,there is proof of cultural cross references,there are ancient texts attributed to both regions that talk about various different people and kingdoms that participated in warfare and trade and exchanged technologies,there is geographical proximity. Devas were considered to be righteous one's in the Indian context whereas the Asuras were considered to be the bad ones and the converse was the case for the Zorastrians who worshipped Ahura/Asura Mazda and considered Devas as the bad ones. These had always made me think that maybe Devas and Asuras were actual tribes which though came under the ambit of the same civilization but were continuously at war but also engaged in trade and cultural exchanges.

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A more appropriate way to put it would be: all modern European languages accept Basque,Turkish and Finno Hungarian have originated or derived from Asian languages and are called Indo-Iranian etc. (of course according to linguists).

Please correct to "Have Originated from the Proto language"

Unless you have solid proof that these languages originated from "Asian" Languages, dont state it as a fact.

Thats why we have lingusits studying the origin of languages earnestly and have come up with the Proto Indo European. Your current Indo -Iranian stance negates your out of India theory,.

Unless you have a Urheimat in in India, dont state it.

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Calling the language group "Indo-Iranian" (assuming we are talking about the same thing) would be both chauvinistic and misleading. All linguists I know about call it "Indo-European," but no one thinks they originated in Europe. The name is geographically descriptive, not having to do with where it came from.

We know very little about the languages that preceded the coming of the Indo-European languages to Europe. From earliest times the Greeks spoke an Indo-European tongue, as did the Italic and Latin tribes (except Etruscan which was an isolate). In Spain before Latin wiped them out the Spanish spoke a mix of Indo-European and other unidentified languages, of which only Basque persists. Modern Spanish, like French and Italian and Romanian and a few others, came much later (during the Middle Ages) out of Latin. Similarly, English and Dutch and modern German and the Scandanivian tounges (except Finnish of course) came out of Gothic-Germanic. There were all ultimately from Indo-European, as were the Celtic tongues, Hittite, Greek, Albanian, and a slew of others.

Whether the Indo-European tongues dominated via a mass migration or by assimilation is just not known; probably a combination.

Again you are not going back to the genesis of the term. Linguists often dabble in Historic population migrations to assume which language was derived from which,and that is where my contention with them begins.

In my opinion until it is shown that there were contemporary European languages that influenced the Ancient Indian and Iranian languages to spawn most of the modern European languages and Greek,any form of this Mother language should be referred to by the geographical location it was spoken in, it is misleading to call them Indo-European or the mother language as PIE-Proto Indo European as it suggests that this languages was spawned by people residing in both the geographical locations.

Why i insist on a geographical location/peoples being attached to a language first is that Linguists do the converse of the same,they try to attach geographical locations/peoples and their migrations and interactions based on their interpretations of linguistic data.

Though doesn't matter as Linguistics is more of an opinion based subject.

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You are being chauvinistic, it doesn't credit you. What would you say if I began insisting the Sino-Tibetan languages were really Vietnam-Tibetan?

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What more proof do you want...there is archaeological proof that these cities were contemporary,there is proof that they were heavily engaged in trading,there is proof of cultural cross references,there are ancient texts attributed to both regions that talk about various different people and kingdoms that participated in warfare and trade and exchanged technologies,there is geographical proximity. Devas were considered to be righteous one's in the Indian context whereas the Asuras were considered to be the bad ones and the converse was the case for the Zorastrians who worshipped Ahura/Asura Mazda and considered Devas as the bad ones. These had always made me think that maybe Devas and Asuras were actual tribes which though came under the ambit of the same civilization but were continuously at war but also engaged in trade and cultural exchanges.

Sorry, cultural cross reference is not proof that it was the same culture. It just shows there was contact, no more no less. Also there are indications that there was trading yes. "Heavely engaged in trading" is something you assume.

Also you're again taking assumptions for certainties. Reread the article : "Bronze Age Zoroastrians did not construct temples. This does not mean that the residents of the town did not include Zoroastrians, for it is quite conceivable that Zoroastrians and non-Zoroastrians lived side-by-side." It's conceivable, nothing else.

As to geographical proximity, well that makes the trading more plausible, however it is also not proof that it was the same culture.

So yes, I need a lot more proof that the circumstantial evidence given here.

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