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buckskin scout

Life In Occupied Palestine

106 posts in this topic

and then,

We are all quite lucky not to be born a Palestinian in the occupied territories, we are all so fortunate not to have parents and grandparents living under the oppressive regime of Israel.

If we have a medical emergencies, we are comforted we can get our loved ones to the hospitals without delay. If our loved ones need medical prescriptions, they will be filled and available and instantly accessible to us. If our mothers or fathers suffer an emergency in which food, clothing, and baby care are needed that these are as instantly available with money and goodwill.

We are fortunate we enjoy the freedoms that we do in that our children are safe and that there is no harassing roadblocks or checkpoints that can hold up our parents and siblings for several hours or days.

That we have instant access to stores, hospitals, doctors, etc. That is not true with the Palestinians under occupation.

I truly wonder what your thoughts would be if YOUR parents were born and raised in Palestine and living under the occupation. What if you mother lived over there, what if your father lived over there, what if your siblings or children lived over there. I bet if you stepped into their shoes for just over a 24 hour period, you'd probably crack! :blink:

I bet the experience would be instant catharsis to your high-faluting religious views. There are no exceptions to the rules regarding human rights violations.

I have NEVER said that the Palestinians were all in the wrong. I just refuse to count them as innocent victims in this conflict. There are two sides to this story BJ. Denial doesn't change that. Even if Israel WERE all in the wrong (which they are NOT) that nation must be dealt with or the only end that will ever come of this conflict is a wider war. When such enmity has existed between individual men or families throughout history, the conclusion comes with the death of one or the other. This is what will happen in Palestine eventually, imo. Not because I wish it to but because it is human nature.

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I don't wonder about the motives of the Palestinians. I'm well aware of them - unlike many here apparently. And it only requires reading a little history and not sitting drooling in front of main stream media. The world is REALLY going to be peeowed when Israel's neighbors attack in "righteous indignation" and get humiliated, including the loss of even more land. Killing innocents with drones is evil. Sending in large forces on the ground and killing even MORE innocents and the soldiers would be worse. Perhaps you'd feel it was fairer if soldiers risked life and limb and some of them died?

What about the motive's of the Israel government ? are You well aware of those too, or just the Palestinian one's ? Bias, much ?

As I have stated before in this topic post #9,

"There is good and bad on both the Israeli and Palestinian side's, not one of them is perfect, same can be said for all other countries"

I dont know about You, But I do NOT sit in front of the TV "drooling in front of main stream media" most of what they say is a load of BS, they say what they want You to think, in most cases (in my opinion)

Its nice to know that You acknowledge that the Palestinian people are in fact losing land, land that is rightfully their's, that is what I make of Your statement "including the loss of even more land" which must mean You recognise that they are in fact losing land already...

How would "Sending in large forces on the ground and killing even MORE innocents and the soldiers would be worse" how would that be worse ? Because of the soldier's lives that would be lost in the battle ? so killing INNOCENT people in the drones attack's is preferable to losing troops lives ?

IF troops were sent in then At least the people that is in the country would stand a fighting chance, and not just be walking down the road etc and suddenly get blown up from something that is circling above in the sky, sending drones in, is a cowards way of fighting, whichever way You cut it, and yes it is "Evil" especially doing so in countries such as pakistan, which is supposedly an allie

IF You care so much about Israel then why dont You go there and see thing's for Yourself, see what is really happening both in Israel AND Palestine, maybe then it will enable You ro see that there is indeed "two sides to every story"

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But to alleviate this evil in the world my guess is that you'd not be overly upset if Israel was successfully invaded and defeated by the err...rightful owners of that land? Call it whatever you like 3rd eye. The problem with most here who so loudly decry the sins of Israel is that they do no such thing for any OTHER entity in the world doing the same or worse things with far less justification. Nah, you're not anti Jew at all...

Seems to me he's anti-Israel, not anti-Jew.

You can be that you know - There's a tonne of anti-American Government but not anti-American people you know after all, and it's the same thing, disagreeing with the government and it's decisions while supporting the people. I suspect we're all anti-Palestinian government but pro-Palestinian people too for that matter, as we're not bloody psychopaths who can't empathise with people.

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What about the motive's of the Israel government ? are You well aware of those too, or just the Palestinian one's ? Bias, much ?

As I have stated before in this topic post #9,

"There is good and bad on both the Israeli and Palestinian side's, not one of them is perfect, same can be said for all other countries"

I dont know about You, But I do NOT sit in front of the TV "drooling in front of main stream media" most of what they say is a load of BS, they say what they want You to think, in most cases (in my opinion)

Its nice to know that You acknowledge that the Palestinian people are in fact losing land, land that is rightfully their's, that is what I make of Your statement "including the loss of even more land" which must mean You recognise that they are in fact losing land already...

How would "Sending in large forces on the ground and killing even MORE innocents and the soldiers would be worse" how would that be worse ? Because of the soldier's lives that would be lost in the battle ? so killing INNOCENT people in the drones attack's is preferable to losing troops lives ?

IF troops were sent in then At least the people that is in the country would stand a fighting chance, and not just be walking down the road etc and suddenly get blown up from something that is circling above in the sky, sending drones in, is a cowards way of fighting, whichever way You cut it, and yes it is "Evil" especially doing so in countries such as pakistan, which is supposedly an allie

IF You care so much about Israel then why dont You go there and see thing's for Yourself, see what is really happening both in Israel AND Palestine, maybe then it will enable You ro see that there is indeed "two sides to every story"

No need for you to stress yourself out hating on me bud..... it won't change me, my opinions or the situation. I'm just expressing my opinions here - you know? Just as you are. Don't worry, be happy - hakuna matata and all that :w00t:

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Seems to me he's anti-Israel, not anti-Jew.

You can be that you know - There's a tonne of anti-American Government but not anti-American people you know after all, and it's the same thing, disagreeing with the government and it's decisions while supporting the people. I suspect we're all anti-Palestinian government but pro-Palestinian people too for that matter, as we're not bloody psychopaths who can't empathise with people.

Possibly, but being anti "Zionist" is the new code for anti Semites. No way to prove it and frankly I don't really care who he hates, I just dislike hypocrites.

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No need for you to stress yourself out hating on me bud..... it won't change me, my opinions or the situation. I'm just expressing my opinions here - you know? Just as you are. Don't worry, be happy - hakuna matata and all that :w00t:

Dont make me laugh..... :rofl: me ? stressing myself out hating on You.... LMAO :rofl:

For a start I have NOT, will NOT and do NOT stress myself out for anyone, least of all You !

AS for hating on you, :rofl: LMAO I dont hate anybody

As the saying goes "A Leopard never changes its spots" so why would I try and change You, or Your opinion's ? :wacko:

How about You actually ANSWER the question's or REPLY to what I have typed in my reply to You, and stop trying to dodge around the points I have bought up

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Possibly, but being anti "Zionist" is the new code for anti Semites. No way to prove it and frankly I don't really care who he hates, I just dislike hypocrites.

BS....... There are even Jewish people that HATE Zionist's, so how do You work out that it is a new code for being an anti semite ?

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BS....... There are even Jewish people that HATE Zionist's, so how do You work out that it is a new code for being an anti semite ?

That sounds like someone saying "Go ahead and convince me! I DARE YA!! :w00t: But seriously, it is common knowledge these days that many others who HAVE definitely engaged in anti semitic behavior have ratcheted down their public statements to say "I only hate ZIONISTS, not Jews. So it isn't the person hood that bothers you, it's their having the right to live in their ancient homeland? That about sum it up? :tu:

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That sounds like someone saying "Go ahead and convince me! I DARE YA!! :w00t: But seriously, it is common knowledge these days that many others who HAVE definitely engaged in anti semitic behavior have ratcheted down their public statements to say "I only hate ZIONISTS, not Jews. So it isn't the person hood that bothers you, it's their having the right to live in their ancient homeland? That about sum it up? :tu:

It seems to me that You read whatever You want to read, or try to twist whatever a person says to suit Your own agenda, sound about right ?

Why dont You actually read what I said which is

"BS....... There are even Jewish people that HATE Zionist's, so how do You work out that it is a new code for being an anti semite ? "

A reply to the actual question I asked in post #57 would suffice

Also a reply to the question's in the previous post's of mine, #52 and #56 would be good :tu:

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It seems to me that You read whatever You want to read, or try to twist whatever a person says to suit Your own agenda, sound about right ?

Why dont You actually read what I said which is

"BS....... There are even Jewish people that HATE Zionist's, so how do You work out that it is a new code for being an anti semite ? "

A reply to the actual question I asked in post #57 would suffice

Also a reply to the question's in the previous post's of mine, #52 and #56 would be good :tu:

Jack my point is that no matter what answer I give, it will not change your opinions of the "evils of Zionism" I think maybe you'd agree on that point, maybe. I just don't think that the Jews having a right to return to their ancestral home is an evil thing in and of itself. The abuse they heap on poor Palestinians is wrong and they should be held accountable but what is happening in the world today with public opinion on Israel far exceeds just holding them accountable for theft of some land. They are the focus of genuine hatred and many, including some on these forums I believe, would gladly see Israel destroyed and the Palestinians living on the land that Israel currently possesses. I do not accuse you of that. The truth of Zionism is that it is an article of faith for many Christians though not all, that Israel has been reborn in their ancestral home, that this is a sign from the Bible that we are nearing the end of the current human political system of the world and that Israel will never be totally displaced from the land Jehovah gave them - not ever - again. Those who do not accept that article of faith can only see current circumstances and are blind to the hatred between these two families of people that has gone on for millennia now. It's not a sporting contest where one side cheers for a winner. I fully realize the suffering and pain of BOTH sides in this conflict. My problem is that I feel that MOST here only see the plight of the Palestinians and never look at the injustices done to the Jews. Perhaps I'm wrong...but I trust my understanding of scripture and I expect to see Israel prosper in the land and her enemies to be laid lower yet. And IF that is God's will then it WILL happen. In spite of every weapon turned against them, it WILL happen. If it does come out that way, will you reconsider your stance? If I had to guess I'd say that you would not.
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the 'lands' belongs to the 'people' ... yes Jews AND Palestinians ...

poor Yitzhak ... did we know him well ? how soon they forget ...

Yitzhak Rabin (Hebrew: יִצְחָק רַבִּין; IPA: [jitsˈχak ʁaˈbin] (13px-Speaker_Icon.svg.png listen); 1 March 1922 – 4 November 1995) was an Israeli politician, statesman and general. He was the fifth Prime Minister of Israel, serving two terms in office, 1974–77 and 1992 until his assassination in 1995.

In 1994, Rabin won the Nobel Peace Prize together with Shimon Peres and Yasser Arafat. He was assassinated by right-wing Israeli radical Yigal Amir, who was opposed to Rabin's signing of the Oslo Accords. Rabin was the first native-born prime minister of Israel, the only prime minister to be assassinated and the second to die in office after Levi Eshkol.

He was voted number one in the Ynet poll of greatest Israelis

This Jew I love ..... but they shot him down they did ....

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Unless someone puts up a convincing proposition that JC approves of what his 'chosen people' are doing 'over there' the Zionapartheid persuasions will always be criminals against humanity to me ....

'they' suffered a holocaust you say > ?

Things they're responsible for today makes me think that maybe they deserved it and they should have another coming their way if JC is as authentic as they come

Me anti Semitic >? No ... just anti Zionapartheid

No pal. You are a raving antisemite.

Don´t try to to put lipstick on that particular pig.

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No pal. You are a raving antisemite.

Don´t try to to put lipstick on that particular pig.

Did you abandon your dietary vows ?

Kashrut (also kashruth or kashrus, כַּשְׁרוּת) is the set of Jewish dietary laws. Food that may be consumed according to halakha (Jewish law) is termed kosher in English, from the Ashkenazi pronunciation of the Hebrew term kashér (כָּשֵׁר), meaning "fit" (in this context, fit for consumption).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashrut

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Posted (edited)

That sounds like someone saying "Go ahead and convince me! I DARE YA!! :w00t: But seriously, it is common knowledge these days that many others who HAVE definitely engaged in anti semitic behavior have ratcheted down their public statements to say "I only hate ZIONISTS, not Jews. So it isn't the person hood that bothers you, it's their having the right to live in their ancient homeland? That about sum it up? :tu:

That's where you err, the Jews never left the land in fact. There have always been Jews in the Holy Land since the time of the Romans. A minority yes but they have never left the land.

Do the Jews have the right to occupy the land not according to the Scriptures:

27 ‘Yet if in spite of this you do not obey Me, but act with hostility against Me, 28 then I will act with wrathful hostility against you, and I, even I, will punish you seven times for your sins. 29 Further, you will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters you will eat. 30 I then will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and heap your remains on the remains of your idols, for My soul shall abhor you. 31 I will lay waste your cities as well and will make your sanctuaries desolate, and I will not smell your soothing aromas. 32 I will make the land desolate so that your enemies who settle in it will be appalled over it. 33 You, however, I will scatter among the nations and will draw out a sword after you, as your land becomes desolate and your cities become waste. Leviticus 26

25 “When you become the father of children and children’s children and have remained long in the land, and act corruptly, and make an idol in the form of anything, and do that which is evil in the sight of the Lord your God so as to provoke Him to anger, 26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that you will surely perish quickly from the land where you are going over the Jordan to possess it. You shall not live long on it, but will be utterly destroyed. 27 The Lord will scatter you among the peoples, and you will be left few in number among the nations where the Lord drives you. Deuteronomy 4

63 It shall come about that as the Lord delighted over you to prosper you, and multiply you, so the Lord will delight over you to make you perish and destroy you; and you will be torn from the land where you are entering to possess it. 64 Moreover, the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth; and there you shall serve other gods, wood and stone, which you or your fathers have not known. Deuteronomy 28

In fact, God ordered the opposite:

4 “Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, to all the exiles whom I have sent into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon, 5 ‘Build houses and live in them; and plant gardens and eat their produce. 6 Take wives and become the fathers of sons and daughters, and take wives for your sons and give your daughters to husbands, that they may bear sons and daughters; and multiply there and do not decrease. 7 Seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the Lord on its behalf; for in its welfare you will have welfare.’ Jeremiah 29

Do you really believe God wants to raise a Jewish Zionist state in the Holy Land, and the majority of those Jews are Talmudic not Mosaic/Torah like Jesus was.

32 “Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it. Deuteronomy 12

Jesus only spoke of one prophecy concerning Jerusalem, in the Gospels, and it is right there in Luke 13:35. I repeat ONE prophecy.

Edited by B Jenkins
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That's where you err, the Jews never left the land in fact. There have always been Jews in the Holy Land since the time of the Romans. A minority yes but they have never left the land.

Do the Jews have the right to occupy the land not according to the Scriptures:

27 ‘Yet if in spite of this you do not obey Me, but act with hostility against Me, 28 then I will act with wrathful hostility against you, and I, even I, will punish you seven times for your sins. 29 Further, you will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters you will eat. 30 I then will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and heap your remains on the remains of your idols, for My soul shall abhor you. 31 I will lay waste your cities as well and will make your sanctuaries desolate, and I will not smell your soothing aromas. 32 I will make the land desolate so that your enemies who settle in it will be appalled over it. 33 You, however, I will scatter among the nations and will draw out a sword after you, as your land becomes desolate and your cities become waste. Leviticus 26

25 “When you become the father of children and children’s children and have remained long in the land, and act corruptly, and make an idol in the form of anything, and do that which is evil in the sight of the Lord your God so as to provoke Him to anger, 26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that you will surely perish quickly from the land where you are going over the Jordan to possess it. You shall not live long on it, but will be utterly destroyed. 27 The Lord will scatter you among the peoples, and you will be left few in number among the nations where the Lord drives you. Deuteronomy 4

63 It shall come about that as the Lord delighted over you to prosper you, and multiply you, so the Lord will delight over you to make you perish and destroy you; and you will be torn from the land where you are entering to possess it. 64 Moreover, the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth; and there you shall serve other gods, wood and stone, which you or your fathers have not known. Deuteronomy 28

In fact, God ordered the opposite:

4 “Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, to all the exiles whom I have sent into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon, 5 ‘Build houses and live in them; and plant gardens and eat their produce. 6 Take wives and become the fathers of sons and daughters, and take wives for your sons and give your daughters to husbands, that they may bear sons and daughters; and multiply there and do not decrease. 7 Seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the Lord on its behalf; for in its welfare you will have welfare.’ Jeremiah 29

Do you really believe God wants to raise a Jewish Zionist state in the Holy Land, and the majority of those Jews are Talmudic not Mosaic/Torah like Jesus was.

32 “Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it. Deuteronomy 12

Jesus only spoke of one prophecy concerning Jerusalem, in the Gospels, and it is right there in Luke 13:35. I repeat ONE prophecy.

So when He returns (with as much quoting of scripture as you do I assume you DO believe He is returning) then what of the Palestinians THEN, BJ? Will you tell Him He's wrong when HE removes all of them for a Jewish homeland? Arrogance, pure and simple.

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So when He returns (with as much quoting of scripture as you do I assume you DO believe He is returning) then what of the Palestinians THEN, BJ? Will you tell Him He's wrong when HE removes all of them for a Jewish homeland? Arrogance, pure and simple.

What the Jewish Remnant? God has done this experiment twice before. And it has twice failed. But remember this, it was always him and his prophets that lead the Jews back into the land. What is with the exception to his rules this "third" time? This time he used no prophets nor any spiritual movement or revival? But a non-religious secularist political movement... namely Zionism, a nationalistic movement that raised an oppressive apartheid regime that represents everything the Torah doesn't.

And in fact, please reread Leviticus 26:32! When God removed the Jews from the land, God allows their enemies to occupy the land.

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Posted (edited)

Do you truly believe God is responsible for Zionism, and then?

22 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2 “And you, son of man, will you judge, will you judge the bloody city? Then cause her to know all her abominations. 3 You shall say, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “A city shedding blood in her midst, so that her time will come, and that makes idols, contrary to her interest, for defilement! 4 You have become guilty by the blood which you have shed, and defiled by your idols which you have made. Thus you have brought your day near and have come to your years; therefore I have made you a reproach to the nations and a mocking to all the lands. 5 Those who are near and those who are far from you will mock you, you of ill repute, full of turmoil.

6 “Behold, the rulers of Israel, each according to his power, have been in you for the purpose of shedding blood. 7 They have treated father and mother lightly within you. The alien they have oppressed in your midst; the fatherless and the widow they have wronged in you. 8 You have despised My holy things and profaned My sabbaths. 9 Slanderous men have been in you for the purpose of shedding blood, and in you they have eaten at the mountain shrines. In your midst they have committed acts of lewdness. 10 In you they have uncovered their fathers’ nakedness; in you they have humbled her who was unclean in her menstrual impurity. 11 One has committed abomination with his neighbor’s wife and another has lewdly defiled his daughter-in-law. And another in you has humbled his sister, his father’s daughter. 12In you they have taken bribes to shed blood; you have taken interest and profits, and you have injured your neighbors for gain by oppression, and you have forgotten Me,” declares the Lord God.

13“Behold, then, I smite My hand at your dishonest gain which you have acquired and at the bloodshed which is among you. 14 Can your heart endure, or can your hands be strong in the days that I will deal with you? I, the Lord, have spoken and will act. 15 I will scatter you among the nations and I will disperse you through the lands, and I will consume your uncleanness from you. Ezekiel 22:1-15

Edited by B Jenkins
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Do you truly believe God is responsible for Zionism, and then?

22 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2 “And you, son of man, will you judge, will you judge the bloody city? Then cause her to know all her abominations. 3 You shall say, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “A city shedding blood in her midst, so that her time will come, and that makes idols, contrary to her interest, for defilement! 4 You have become guilty by the blood which you have shed, and defiled by your idols which you have made. Thus you have brought your day near and have come to your years; therefore I have made you a reproach to the nations and a mocking to all the lands. 5 Those who are near and those who are far from you will mock you, you of ill repute, full of turmoil.

6 “Behold, the rulers of Israel, each according to his power, have been in you for the purpose of shedding blood. 7 They have treated father and mother lightly within you. The alien they have oppressed in your midst; the fatherless and the widow they have wronged in you. 8 You have despised My holy things and profaned My sabbaths. 9 Slanderous men have been in you for the purpose of shedding blood, and in you they have eaten at the mountain shrines. In your midst they have committed acts of lewdness. 10 In you they have uncovered their fathers’ nakedness; in you they have humbled her who was unclean in her menstrual impurity. 11 One has committed abomination with his neighbor’s wife and another has lewdly defiled his daughter-in-law. And another in you has humbled his sister, his father’s daughter. 12In you they have taken bribes to shed blood; you have taken interest and profits, and you have injured your neighbors for gain by oppression, and you have forgotten Me,” declares the Lord God.

13“Behold, then, I smite My hand at your dishonest gain which you have acquired and at the bloodshed which is among you. 14 Can your heart endure, or can your hands be strong in the days that I will deal with you? I, the Lord, have spoken and will act. 15 I will scatter you among the nations and I will disperse you through the lands, and I will consume your uncleanness from you. Ezekiel 22:1-15

And He DID consume that uncleanness. He nearly exterminated them to a soul. Now they have repopulated the land - as the word says they will. The problem BJ is that you simply will not accept that Israel has returned to the land. But it HAS. If it were illegitimate do you not think God could remedy this? You say He experimented twice and FAILED. You do realize that is akin to an amoeba analyzing a theory of Einstein, right?

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Posted (edited)

Yet it is Somalia that is by far in the worst condition. You understood my point and did not dispute it I see. I am not at all surprised by the Boston marathon murders. In fact I am amazed that this trash hasn't long ago started these kinds of attacks. Americans are a hard headed lot. If these attacks become as common as, say, the bus and cafe bombings of the second intifada in Israel, I predict the world will see a much less restrained version of American power. I owe no apologies or explanations to those families. Their MURDERERS do. America is at war and all citizens here had better become wise to that. There is no safe place any longer. They may come here to kill us but I'll be damned if we'll die on our knees like some I could name.

As I've mentioned in a previous post (or might have been in another thread, can't remember and am not going back to check) after WWII America has lost it's way and, in my eyes and those of many people in the world, it pretends to stand as the leader of democratic freedom and justice in the world but lacks consistency and is overwhelmingly biased. When I say many people in the world I'm referring to all the anti-western, anti-American propaganda, acts of terrorism etc. we've been witnessing around the world for decades.

It's the Govt, not the people. In fact, Americans are amongst the highest contributors in the world for Aid to impoverished countries. Other "leading" economies in the world such as China don't even go close. Why not lash out and scrutinise China? Why not flood the internet with anti-Chinese propaganda about their treatment of minorities such as the Tibetans and Uyghurs?

It's all about who makes the loudest and the most insistent noise (Media, International Organisations etc). People are like animal herds, they flow in the same direction en masse when something is drummed into them long enough. Since the 70's the Arabs have been doing just that in relation to the plight of the Palestinians. Tibetans and Uyghurs don't have this same "brotherly" support and despite the Dalai Lama, don't have the same exposure. This is not to say their situation is less dramatic (we're talking ethnic cleansing) than that of the Palestinians.

It’s also and mainly because everyone loves to knock down the false pretend world leaders. The Govt of a country which pretends to be the pinnacle of democratic freedom and justice in the world, who gives US$ 3 billion dollars to a country to arm up and suppress the self-determination of others. Who invades other countries under false pretenses and causes massive devastation and deaths. Who constantly intervenes in the internal affairs of other countries, not necessarily for benevolent and humanitarian purposes.

You see the hypocrisy? It's pointless (and laughable) when you read things such as "no matter what we do the world always sees the negative side of America" As I said, it's not the people, it's your Govt. China is no less guilty in their murderous acts but it’s the hypocrisy on a world scale where your Govt goes wrong and because it's the Govt of the USA and not the Govt of Burundi (hope I don't offend any Burundians on UM), it has an impact.

You’re damn right there is no safe place in the world anymore. Don’t sharpen your weapons, blame your leaders and Govt and force them to keep their beaks out of other nations internal business.

Edited by Black Red Devil
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Posted (edited)

Jack my point is that no matter what answer I give, it will not change your opinions of the "evils of Zionism" I think maybe you'd agree on that point, maybe. I just don't think that the Jews having a right to return to their ancestral home is an evil thing in and of itself. The abuse they heap on poor Palestinians is wrong and they should be held accountable but what is happening in the world today with public opinion on Israel far exceeds just holding them accountable for theft of some land. They are the focus of genuine hatred and many, including some on these forums I believe, would gladly see Israel destroyed and the Palestinians living on the land that Israel currently possesses. I do not accuse you of that. The truth of Zionism is that it is an article of faith for many Christians though not all, that Israel has been reborn in their ancestral home, that this is a sign from the Bible that we are nearing the end of the current human political system of the world and that Israel will never be totally displaced from the land Jehovah gave them - not ever - again. Those who do not accept that article of faith can only see current circumstances and are blind to the hatred between these two families of people that has gone on for millennia now. It's not a sporting contest where one side cheers for a winner. I fully realize the suffering and pain of BOTH sides in this conflict. My problem is that I feel that MOST here only see the plight of the Palestinians and never look at the injustices done to the Jews. Perhaps I'm wrong...but I trust my understanding of scripture and I expect to see Israel prosper in the land and her enemies to be laid lower yet. And IF that is God's will then it WILL happen. In spite of every weapon turned against them, it WILL happen. If it does come out that way, will you reconsider your stance? If I had to guess I'd say that you would not.

The world recognised the sufferings of the Jews by the hand of the Nazi's and "created" the State of Israel for them. The world has now an obligation to finish off the job by allowing the majority owners of that land, a proper and decent home. Where the previously oppressed shouldn't be oppressing (they owe it to the world). It's not about the scriptures, it's about us as human beings. This is where Zionists go wrong.

Edited by Black Red Devil
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The world recognised the sufferings of the Jews by the hand of the Nazi's and "created" the State of Israel for them. The world has now an obligation to finish off the job allowing the majority owners of that land, a proper and decent home. Where the previously oppressed shouldn't be oppressing (they owe it to the world). It's not about the scriptures, it's about us as human beings. This is where Zionists go wrong.

When those oppressed human beings are truly willing to live side by side in peace and openly declare that Israel is the homeland of the Jews there will be peace. Until then there will be war. Zionism is so hated because it stands boldly and proclaims the Jews have an unalienable right to a land of their own. Not a right to abuse anyone but a simple right to possess a land and have it acknowledged as THEIR home in this world. The other "people of the book" in the M.E. have 22 countries to call home. From the very beginning the conflict has been and remains the absolute unwillingness in any form - to simply say "Israel is the home of the Jewish people" Most Palestinians will not even say the word. They refer to Israel as "the Zionist entity".

Now I ask you BRD, what harm would come to Abbas or Haniyeh or Nasrallah to simply utter those words? WHY can they not simply agree and then sit down and call Israel's hand on negotiations? It's a serious question. Can you answer it?

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When those oppressed human beings are truly willing to live side by side in peace and openly declare that Israel is the homeland of the Jews there will be peace. Until then there will be war. Zionism is so hated because it stands boldly and proclaims the Jews have an unalienable right to a land of their own. Not a right to abuse anyone but a simple right to possess a land and have it acknowledged as THEIR home in this world. The other "people of the book" in the M.E. have 22 countries to call home. From the very beginning the conflict has been and remains the absolute unwillingness in any form - to simply say "Israel is the home of the Jewish people" Most Palestinians will not even say the word. They refer to Israel as "the Zionist entity".

Now I ask you BRD, what harm would come to Abbas or Haniyeh or Nasrallah to simply utter those words? WHY can they not simply agree and then sit down and call Israel's hand on negotiations? It's a serious question. Can you answer it?

We go around in circles again. How can they be happy to be living side by side with a country that oppressors and restricts all their moves, who keeps on building settlements on their land?

But moving onto "Israel is the home of the Jewish people" as you claim and why don't Abbas or Haniyeh or Nasrallah recognise it as such. Before I tell you my opinion I want you to tell me what is the region you define as Israel (i.e. 1967 borders or current including West Bank or current including West Bank and Gaza or Zion's Greater Israel).

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We go around in circles again. How can they be happy to be living side by side with a country that oppressors and restricts all their moves, who keeps on building settlements on their land?

But moving onto "Israel is the home of the Jewish people" as you claim and why don't Abbas or Haniyeh or Nasrallah recognise it as such. Before I tell you my opinion I want you to tell me what is the region you define as Israel (i.e. 1967 borders or current including West Bank or current including West Bank and Gaza or Zion's Greater Israel).

Fair enough. Everything they sat on prior to 1967 plus a region of the Jordan valley that will be defensible with a pre agreed number of troops. NOT settlements, troops. I feel that Israel would give up Judea and Samaria if it really meant they didn't have to worry daily about annihilation. And they would share Jerusalem as an open city. But no right of return - ever.

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OK. So Gaza, West Bank, East Jerusalem back to the Palestinians and Golan Hts back to Syria. When is this going to happen? The State of Palestine has already being accepted by the world but Israel still holds onto East Jerusalem, Golan Hts and many areas of the West Bank.

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