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Christians and oppression

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i often read people comments that they show no sympathy to christians who are oppressed, because christians have a history for oppression. that being said i do hear sympathy from alot of non christians.

as a christian i have never took part in a holywar or supported any of the ones before i was born.

i have never taken it upon my self to own slaves and try to support my actions with the bible and dont see the logic of the ones who did before me.

i have never burnt a witch.

i have never walked door to door preaching.

as far as im aware ive never said a UMer was going to hell.

i have never been oppressed but do you think me, and others like me derserve oppresion?

much love from an unoppressed christian

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It has been a long time since i met an oppressed person, although know from reading that they still exist. Oppression of others is a destructive trait no matter who is being oppresed. It is destructive to te oppressed and to the oppresor because it warps a productive and progresive society. My somewhat controversial view is that no one can be oppressed unless they are somewhat complicit in allowing themselves to be oppressed. A person can resist oppression, even if that creates dangerous consequences. Failure to resist is what enables the oppression to exist. A society should reduce oppression where ever possible, but it also requires every individual to resist personal oppression at every level.

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because christians have a history for oppression.

??

Don't believe everything hollywood tells you.Christians haven't 'oppressed' anyone more than any other group of people have in the last 2000 years.

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Religion doesn't cause wars or hatred, people do. It's people who abuse religion and use it as an excuse to do what they want that are the problem. So I don't judge people by their religion, I judge them by their actions.

To the contrary, religion does cause wars. In fact, most of the current wars in the world have a religious component.

That said, of course you can not control beliefs. But religious beliefs should not be excempt from critical discussion, just as other ideologies are not.

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i often read people comments that they show no sympathy to christians who are oppressed, because christians have a history for oppression. that being said i do hear sympathy from alot of non christians.

as a christian i have never took part in a holywar or supported any of the ones before i was born.

i have never taken it upon my self to own slaves and try to support my actions with the bible and dont see the logic of the ones who did before me.

i have never burnt a witch.

i have never walked door to door preaching.

as far as im aware ive never said a UMer was going to hell.

i have never been oppressed but do you think me, and others like me derserve oppresion?

much love from an unoppressed christian

Of course you don´t deserve oppression because of your personal beliefs. On the other hand, you should not demand that society changes to conform to your beliefs. To your credit, you don´t do that.

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To the contrary, religion does cause wars. In fact, most of the current wars in the world have a religious component.

That said, of course you can not control beliefs. But religious beliefs should not be excempt from critical discussion, just as other ideologies are not.

That's wrong, the wars are being caused by people. Non of these religions are telling people to go to war.

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Posted (edited)

??

Don't believe everything hollywood tells you.Christians haven't 'oppressed' anyone more than any other group of people have in the last 2000 years.

I believe the last of the original old pagans in Europe were slaughtered and survivors forcibly converted to Christianity in Sweden during the 12th Century. From then until the late 18th century was it possible not to be a Christian in Europe? Could anybody, peasant or noble have renounced Christianity, or even expressed even a small amount of doubt? Everybody knows that the answer is NO. And were there any pagans in Europe during this time "oppressing" Christians? No, because they had all been slaughtered or converted. In some parts of Europe even today, not to be seen going to a Christian church at least once a week will cause bad feelings towards that person. The only group of people doing any religious repressing of people in Europe, and beyond, these last 2000 years have been Christians. No doubt an uncomfortable truth that will be met with a basilisk stare and total denial from certain posters.....

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri
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I believe the last of the original old pagans in Europe were slaughtered and survivors forcibly converted to Christianity in Sweden during the 12th Century. From then until the late 18th century was it possible not to be a Christian in Europe? Could anybody, peasant or noble have renounced Christianity, or even expressed even a small amount of doubt? Everybody knows that the answer is NO. And were there any pagans in Europe during this time "oppressing" Christians? No, because they had all been slaughtered or converted. In some parts of Europe even today, not to be seen going to a Christian church at least once a week will cause bad feelings towards that person. The only group of people doing any religious repressing of people in Europe, and beyond, these last 2000 years have been Christians. No doubt an uncomfortable truth that will be met with a basilisk stare and total denial from certain posters.....

sticks and stones, quote the historical texts that prove your claims.

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I believe the last of the original old pagans in Europe were slaughtered and survivors forcibly converted to Christianity in Sweden during the 12th Century.

Do you have a source for that? The most notable incident I am aware of is The massacre of Verden which has been interpreted as a Christian pogrom against pagans but it could also be seen as a typical consequence of rebellion against a dark age king.

From then until the late 18th century was it possible not to be a Christian in Europe?

Not so, there were many Jews and Muslims living in Europe at this time.

Could anybody, peasant or noble have renounced Christianity, or even expressed even a small amount of doubt? Everybody knows that the answer is NO.

Granted, but we also know what the penalty for apostatizing in Islam was and still is - death.

And were there any pagans in Europe during this time "oppressing" Christians? No, because they had all been slaughtered or converted.

True, but Christians certainly were "oppressed" by other religious members, i.s. Muslim invasions and conquests. In this respect Catholicism was the glue that united Europe against Muslim invaders.

In some parts of Europe even today, not to be seen going to a Christian church at least once a week will cause bad feelings towards that person.

Bad feelings? Really? Thus we should persecute Christians because we feel bad? I think you're stretching the sense of the word oppression.

The only group of people doing any religious repressing of people in Europe, and beyond, these last 2000 years have been Christians. No doubt an uncomfortable truth that will be met with a basilisk stare and total denial from certain posters.....

So we'll just ignore all the Muslim invasions and kidnapping of Christians in Europe for the last 1300 years shall we? Not to mention the most recent Muslim violence in Europe against Christians, Jews, gays, women ....

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sticks and stones, quote the historical texts that prove your claims.

But this is common knowledge! Do you really deny any opression of non Christians in Europe over many centuries? By asking to provide texts to prove reality you are doing no different to asking for texts to prove that the Thirty Years War happened. If I had made a claim about a specific and obscure incident, then ask for proof, I would not argue with that, but you are guilty of the old technique of wilfull ignorance and sidestepping. Pagans were slaughtered and converted against their will, witches were burnt, people could not be seen not to be Christian. These are facts. If you chose to deny reality then that is your affair.

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@ redhen. I will not counter all your points as they are deliberate obfuscations.

I do not obfuscate, I use logic, reasoning and argumentation. You made claims, I asked for evidence. That's the way an argument works.

This thread is not about Muslims or Jews, and I did not mention them. Jews, after all Europe had become Christian being the main victims of appalling oppression. It should be clear that I am talking about native Europeans not being able to break away from Christianity. Stop obfuscating! As for Muslim invasions, well, to me they are simply other people of the book, and there invasion is not really part of what this thread is about, again you obfuscate!.

Ask any scholar of the Humanities and they will tell you that context is everything. I put your statements into historical context.

You also put words in my mouth as I never said Christians should be persecuted, quote were I said that.

Well the title of this thread is Christians derserve to be oppressed? (sic) and you seemed to defend this claim.

You Christian fundamentalists live in a fantasy world, blind to history, reality and commonsense. Most of your, and others, answers to these religious matters are nothing more than lies and insults.

People on the UM forum know that I not a Christian fundamentalist, I am not even a Christian. I just believe that the truth is important and ethics are important.

p.s. what does the Cyrillic text in your profile quote mean? Are you Russian?

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i have never been oppressed but do you think me, and others like me derserve oppresion?

No one deserves oppression.

That being said, it is a little hard to believe that a group to which the majority of people in America belong, is actually an oppressed minority.

Doug

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Posted (edited)

i often read people comments that they show no sympathy to christians who are oppressed, because christians have a history for oppression. that being said i do hear sympathy from alot of non christians.

as a christian i have never took part in a holywar or supported any of the ones before i was born.

i have never taken it upon my self to own slaves and try to support my actions with the bible and dont see the logic of the ones who did before me.

i have never burnt a witch.

i have never walked door to door preaching.

as far as im aware ive never said a UMer was going to hell.

i have never been oppressed but do you think me, and others like me derserve oppresion?

much love from an unoppressed christian

No one deserve oppression. But a Christian should pay very close attention to who is opressed and who is not these days, and what groups have actually done the oppression in the last 500 years.

I do not agree with the seperatiion of the religion from the actions of the people. Not all actions represent the people of the religion as a whole, but it definantly taints it.

There are a small number of oppressed Christians mostly in Muslim countries, but as a whole nowadays Christians mostly do the oppressing. From gay rights to genocide of the native Americans. Does that make you personalky responsible... No. But when you join a group and take on the label don't be surprised if you then are associated with these wrongs.

On a side note.... If one is going to part of a group, there should be some sort of internal accountability that that person has for the actions of a group. It's like buying stocks. I refuse to own stock in socially irresponsible companies. If I say owned stock in wal mart, that makes me part owner of wal Mart and complicit in there actions. If I did own it it would be to change it. I'm not rich enough to do that.

If I were Christian I would be active against the Christians that give christianity a bad name. Paranoid Android does a great job. To me people like him are ideal Christians.

Edited by Seeker79
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There are a small number of oppressed Christians mostly in Muslim countries, but as a whole nowadays Christians mostly do the oppressing. From gay rights to genocide of the native Americans.

native americans? what on earth are you talking about? There was never a holy war declared on native american by christians.

gay rights? Nowhere on earth are gays being murdered by christians just for being gay.

Now in muslim countries that is a different story.

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native americans? what on earth are you talking about? There was never a holy war declared on native american by christians.

gay rights? Nowhere on earth are gays being murdered by christians just for being gay.

Now in muslim countries that is a different story.

http://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/moving-walls/18/persecution-homosexuality-uganda

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you people

"you people?"

That right there is the definition of prejudice, buddy boy.

You are obviously a anti-christian zealot and you will never be able to see more than one side of a coin. I'm finished debating with you. Your intolerance of anything that disagrees with you is like a beetle made of shadows devouring your maggot-ridden mind!

ps. see what I did there with that last sentence? That's how stupid it looks here:

No doubt an uncomfortable truth that will be met with a basilisk stare and total denial from certain posters.....

and here:

you people twist in the wind like a corpse hanging from a gibbet

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Posted (edited)

It has been a long time since i met an oppressed person, although know from reading that they still exist. Oppression of others is a destructive trait no matter who is being oppresed. It is destructive to te oppressed and to the oppresor because it warps a productive and progresive society. My somewhat controversial view is that no one can be oppressed unless they are somewhat complicit in allowing themselves to be oppressed. A person can resist oppression, even if that creates dangerous consequences. Failure to resist is what enables the oppression to exist. A society should reduce oppression where ever possible, but it also requires every individual to resist personal oppression at every level.

People have to be in the right mind state and have enough psychological strength to overcome not only the oppressors but also their oppressive state (of mind) grouped with others who are also oppressed and have not developed their minds to be fighters makes one huge struggle. Sometimes only progress can be made and that progress can be rerouted easily, not to mention as the oppressed grow they have the (beat in) tendancy, sometimes to become oppressors themselves. Your philosophy is a good one but rarely is their enough mental strength, cooperative or independant to pull it off.

Edit: over a period of time that we, in our limited life spans have privy to witness.. the process always happens but in like 500 year increments etc....

There is still MUCH oppression in the land....

Edited by SpiritWriter

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Posted (edited)

Thats why there needs to be a great call for new, non political and non violent leaders.

Non-political as in goverment.

Edited by SpiritWriter

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Posted (edited)

No one deserve oppression. But a Christian should pay very close attention to who is opressed and who is not these days, and what groups have actually done the oppression in the last 500 years.

I do not agree with the seperatiion of the religion from the actions of the people. Not all actions represent the people of the religion as a whole, but it definantly taints it.

There are a small number of oppressed Christians mostly in Muslim countries, but as a whole nowadays Christians mostly do the oppressing. From gay rights to genocide of the native Americans. Does that make you personalky responsible... No. But when you join a group and take on the label don't be surprised if you then are associated with these wrongs.

On a side note.... If one is going to part of a group, there should be some sort of internal accountability that that person has for the actions of a group. It's like buying stocks. I refuse to own stock in socially irresponsible companies. If I say owned stock in wal mart, that makes me part owner of wal Mart and complicit in there actions. If I did own it it would be to change it. I'm not rich enough to do that.

If I were Christian I would be active against the Christians that give christianity a bad name. Paranoid Android does a great job. To me people like him are ideal Christians.

A true Christian principle is not to oppress but to free (the way I see it)

Why should we appologize for other peoples malpractice or held accountable for it?

Perhaps the version (the mask) that promotes this is not our religion at all but, we are still Christian.

Ive said this for a long time, and not directed at you in particular seeker, I think you know this.. but peoples understanding needs to open up on all sides. And all need to be cognizant of how to treat other people. Titles are nothing, the principles are what matter, knowing what is important to us and what we have discerned to make a part of our practice (religion) will alert us how to respond in any environment. Christians need to learn they dont have to agree with everything the pastors or the old ways say... we ALL should be on the road to seeing each other as equal, special, worthy. (Even those who need work, because... we all need work)

Edited by SpiritWriter
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But this is common knowledge! Do you really deny any opression of non Christians in Europe over many centuries? By asking to provide texts to prove reality you are doing no different to asking for texts to prove that the Thirty Years War happened. If I had made a claim about a specific and obscure incident, then ask for proof, I would not argue with that, but you are guilty of the old technique of wilfull ignorance and sidestepping. Pagans were slaughtered and converted against their will, witches were burnt, people could not be seen not to be Christian. These are facts. If you chose to deny reality then that is your affair.

im sorry but what your saying is craziness, and i wont indulge it. i never said christians havent done things, pagans have also. red hen just picked apart your argument, theirs no need for me to do that. the thirty years happened, when i said to quote didnt mean irrelevant things.

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you people twist in the wind like a corpse hanging from a gibbet

the original question was do i derserve oppresion, you have hijacked the topic and turned it the opposite way to its intention.
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