Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 2
Ever Learning

Christians and oppression

121 posts in this topic

What is suggested here is that "real" Christians cannot do anything against what is told in the bible. So, anybody who claims to be a Christian yet breaks any teaching of Christ, is not a Christian at all, they are something else. What exactly? And further, it would seem that a vast number of people who have lived since Christ, and who thought they were Christians, are now presumably condemned to hell or whatever. All those who went on crusades or condoned the burning of witches, and that would be a very large number of people, none of them were Christian? Anybody, no matter who, who comitted any "sin" no matter how small, they are no longer Christians. How many popes were not Christian. Seems anybody wanting to be Christian has to rigidly conform to the views of one part of Christianity, or be forever cast into the void.

Oh I give up in the face of these blockheads. I never saw so much wriggling and squirming in my life. You "Christians" or whatever you are, are simply not worth my time. I leave. There, now you can make some blockheaded comment after mine and claim some hollow "victory". I really don't give a ....

Actually, some Christians may not agree with what their other half is up to, but secretly, if they are real Christians, they applaud the actions of trying to convert the heathens. Why let those poor b******* burn in hell, they are obligated to try and convert. The road to hell is indeed paved with good intentions.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Blood so hot I use it to make coffee. However, never underestimate the amount of boneheaded denial about this sort of thing. There will soon be screams of "But they aren't real Christians" etc etc ad nauseum

Who is a real Christian? That's the question.

The problem here is the socalled Old and New Testament.

I can respect the Christians who say something like: "I only follow and believe in the words of Jesus Christ as described in the NT".

But I do have some problems with those claiming to be "true" Christians and saying they follow the Bible (= OT+NT).

The "God" of the OT is nothing but an angry toddler suffering from tantrums, hatred, prejudice, aggression, insanity and whatnot (think Samuel Jackson in "Pulp Fiction").

Most often "Christian" abuse and violence is done in the name of the God as portrayed in the OT.

.

Edited by Abramelin
2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Most often "Christian" abuse and violence is done in the name of the God as portrayed in the OT.

Yes, precisely, though I do not bother anymore to differentiate between them. I don't want to over do this, but somebody being shot in Babi Yar is not going to care if their killer is a member of the Waffen SS or some low grade sonder Kommando, they just know they are being killed by some fascist. (likely to have been raised as a Christian) sorry, couldn't resist the opportunity for that. Not Jewish btw

And that is my final word here f438d6a0b276.gif

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, precisely, though I do not bother anymore to differentiate between them. I don't want to over do this, but somebody being shot in Babi Yar is not going to care if their killer is a member of the Waffen SS or some low grade sonder Kommando, they just know they are being killed by some fascist. (likely to have been raised as a Christian) sorry, couldn't resist the opportunity for that. Not Jewish btw

And that is my final word here f438d6a0b276.gif

Well, I have some not so final words here...

Those who say they are Christians should only follow the NT, for that is a record of what Jesus Christ is supposed to have taught his disciples and people he encountered.

Jesus' philosophy would NEVER have been included in the OT, had he lived in OT times.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

same old, same old. these excuses for your religion are very predictable and tiresome. tell it to the marines , not me.....

Yep, same old prejudice. Refusing to answer is all the answer you need to give.

Not at all, but If I continue to let you use my name without defending it, it begs the question.

If you defended your name by phone or letter would that count?

Who is a real Christian? That's the question.

The problem here is the socalled Old and New Testament.

I can respect the Christians who say something like: "I only follow and believe in the words of Jesus Christ as described in the NT".

But I do have some problems with those claiming to be "true" Christians and saying they follow the Bible (= OT+NT).

The "God" of the OT is nothing but an angry toddler suffering from tantrums, hatred, prejudice, aggression, insanity and whatnot (think Samuel Jackson in "Pulp Fiction").

Most often "Christian" abuse and violence is done in the name of the God as portrayed in the OT.

.

By your description of God's action in the OT, it's obvious you have not actually read it. As a Christian, I am interested in studying all of the Bible and identifying what I should apply to my life. As a student of the Bible, I realize that I am not of Jewish descent and am not interested in being a Jew, so the majority of the regulations laid out in the Old Testament, which are specifically directed to the Jews do not apply to me. As a student of the Bible I also find an interesting thing that blows all of the "Well, Jesus was a nice, sweet, loving guy, but God in the Old Testament was a deranged lunatic" commentary to the sidelines where it belongs. Jesus stated that He is "I Am." and that no one has seen the Father, only Him, which means Jesus is the "God of the Old Testament." Edited by IamsSon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I have some not so final words here...

Those who say they are Christians should only follow the NT, for that is a record of what Jesus Christ is supposed to have taught his disciples and people he encountered.

Jesus' philosophy would NEVER have been included in the OT, had he lived in OT times.

Jesus quoted the Old Testament, and also made specific claims about the law, so Christians need to study and UNDERSTAND the Old Testament and how it applies to them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jesus quoted the Old Testament, and also made specific claims about the law, so Christians need to study and UNDERSTAND the Old Testament and how it applies to them.

Jesus came from an old tradition, so he had to quote from that old tradition to make himself understandable.

But you will not find his interpretation of the ancient laws in the OT.

Yes, he wanted them to understand his interpretation of the OT, but that is not like saying, "do as you read in the OT".

In case you forgot: the NT mentions how Jesus was opposed by the 'religious establishment'.

He got nailed to a cross because they wanted him nailed to a cross.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

By your description of God's action in the OT, it's obvious you have not actually read it. As a Christian, I am interested in studying all of the Bible and identifying what I should apply to my life. As a student of the Bible, I realize that I am not of Jewish descent and am not interested in being a Jew, so the majority of the regulations laid out in the Old Testament, which are specifically directed to the Jews do not apply to me. As a student of the Bible I also find an interesting thing that blows all of the "Well, Jesus was a nice, sweet, loving guy, but God in the Old Testament was a deranged lunatic" commentary to the sidelines where it belongs. Jesus stated that He is "I Am." and that no one has seen the Father, only Him, which means Jesus is the "God of the Old Testament."

I have copies of the Bible in 3 languages; Dutch, English, and Papiamento, and I read them all.

=

Jesus was about how HE interpreted the OT. His interpretation was a 180 degrees off from how the religious establishment thought it should be interpreted.

Yeah, I read the Bible.

.

Edited by Abramelin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a question for those who think that a Christian should be faithful to the OT.

If "God" asked you to slit the throat of your son as an act of loyalty to him, would you do it?

That is your OT "God".

Think "Abraham".

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I have copies of the Bible in 3 languages; Dutch, English, and Papiamento, and I read them all.

=

Jesus was about how HE interpreted the OT. His interpretation was a 180 degrees off from how the religious establishment thought it should be interpreted.

Yeah, I read the Bible..

having copies in different languages does not actually mean you read it.

I agree that Jesus interpreted the Old Testament in a way significantly different from the religious leaders of His day. He understood that the purpose of the laws, regulations, requirements for feasts and sacrifices and all that was intended to get a rational person to realize they could never reach God on their own, by their actions and instead turn to God in humility seeking mercy and grace.

I have a question for those who think that a Christian should be faithful to the OT.

If "God" asked you to slit the throat of your son as an act of loyalty to him, would you do it?

That is your OT "God".

Think "Abraham".

If God asked you to do something, anything, would you refuse? Edited by IamsSon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The "God" of the OT is nothing but an angry toddler suffering from tantrums, hatred, prejudice, aggression, insanity and whatnot (think Samuel Jackson in "Pulp Fiction").

.

More like Denzel Washington in Training Day I think. I agree 100% with the tantrums, hatred, prejudice, aggression, and a 10,000% with insanity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Actually, some Christians may not agree with what their other half is up to, but secretly, if they are real Christians, they applaud the actions of trying to convert the heathens. Why let those poor b******* burn in hell, they are obligated to try and convert. The road to hell is indeed paved with good intentions.

Interesting that you get to decide what constitutes a 'real' Christian. Is that not up to them?

My interpretation would be that a Christian is, by definition, a follower of Christ (not the Bible, you'll note). So they should do as Christ advocates not the OT for one thing. Secondly, we know none of the Bible as it stands today was written by him or even people who knew him. And much was added or removed by the Church. So how do we know what is really following Christ and what is following a power hungry 4th century man in Nicaea or a man with a fondness for funny mushrooms (*cough* revelations *cough*)? And that's where every individual has to make their own decision on what the overriding message is. Personally, I think it's one of understanding, tolerance and compassion, not conversion but that's for each Christian to decide for him/her self.

If God asked you to do something, anything, would you refuse?

If I thought it was an order only a deranged evil tyrant would give? Yep. If that's God, I think I'd prefer the company in Hell. Warmer too. But I'm with Abremilin on this one. The God Christ claims to be representing does not strike me as one who would give any such order.

Edited by Setton
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I thought it was an order only a deranged evil tyrant would give? Yep. If that's God, I think I'd prefer the company in Hell. Warmer too. But I'm with Abremilin on this one. The God Christ claims to be representing does not strike me as one who would give any such order.

Jesus does not claim to be representing any god, He claims to be God, and not just any God, but The God of the Old Testament Himself

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If God asked you to do something, anything, would you refuse?

So it's a YES, right? You would slit the throat of your son.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Interesting that you get to decide what constitutes a 'real' Christian. Is that not up to them?

My interpretation would be that a Christian is, by definition, a follower of Christ (not the Bible, you'll note). So they should do as Christ advocates not the OT for one thing. Secondly, we know none of the Bible as it stands today was written by him or even people who knew him. And much was added or removed by the Church. So how do we know what is really following Christ and what is following a power hungry 4th century man in Nicaea or a man with a fondness for funny mushrooms (*cough* revelations *cough*)? And that's where every individual has to make their own decision on what the overriding message is. Personally, I think it's one of understanding, tolerance and compassion, not conversion but that's for each Christian to decide for him/her self.

If I thought it was an order only a deranged evil tyrant would give? Yep. If that's God, I think I'd prefer the company in Hell. Warmer too. But I'm with Abremilin on this one. The God Christ claims to be representing does not strike me as one who would give any such order.

Are Christians not directed to spread their religon? If you are Christian are you not glad a heathen is saved from his unchristian ways? No. The primary premis of Christianity is that one can only be saved through Christ. Why would any thoughtful Christian not aplaud the conversion of non christian shamanic beliefs if indeed their beliefs are solid. Most Christians consider shaman satanic in origin. So I'll stick with my original statement. Any real Christian should be perfectly happy that missionaries invade aboriginal cultures with their religion, and it would not be me defining what a Christian is.

Edited by Seeker79

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a question for those who think that a Christian should be faithful to the OT.

If "God" asked you to slit the throat of your son as an act of loyalty to him, would you do it?

That is your OT "God".

Think "Abraham".

Methinks that you forget that the OT precedes Christianity by 3000 years or more.

By definition, nothing written in the OT can directly address Christians, since there were no Christians at the time...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are Christians not directed to spread their religon?

Not by Jihad! And their religion does not come with barbaric medieval laws.

As a non-Christian I find it weird having to defend them, but these hamfisted attacks on Christianity are really tiring. You Christianity bashers are so barking up the wrong tree.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Methinks that you forget that the OT precedes Christianity by 3000 years or more.

By definition, nothing written in the OT can directly address Christians, since there were no Christians at the time...

Well, precedes Christianity by some 1500 years would be more correct.

Anyway, my point is that there are Christians who live according to the NT. That seems logical because otherwise they would not call themselves Christians. But as you know, many Christians follow the Bible, which includes the OT.

Now that is different. Atrocities committed in the name of Christianity were always committed by those who followed the OT.

Jesus didn't say "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth", but "love your neighbour", "whoever is without sin, let him throw the first stone", "turn the other cheek", and so on.

.

Edited by Abramelin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jesus didn't say "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth", but "love your neighbour", "whoever is without sin, let him throw the first stone", "turn the other cheek", and so on.

Matthew 5:38: "You have heard it said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but I tell you to turn the other cheek."

The eye-for-an-eye part comes from the OT where it is listed in at least three verses. The original idea is in the Code of Hammurabi (1780 BC). The idea is that you will extract ONLY an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. It is a call for justice, not vengeance. Those who use it as an excuse for violence are following neither the Old or the New Testaments (nor even the laws of Babylon), but rather, their own whims.

In Judea, it was customary when insulted or otherwise offended by someone, to strike them. An inferior was struck with the back of the hand, while a superior was struck with the palm. By turning the other cheek, you forced a person who struck you with the back of the hand to admit that you were his superior. It is a non-violent approach, but it is also a very active approach. Peace and justice are active, not passive.

One of the reasons Christians were persecuted in Roman times was their abominable behavior. They burned pagan churches, desecrated sacred groves and disrupted services. They fought with and murdered each other over matters of doctrine. Civil discourse was a rarity. An emperor trying to keep the peace had no choice but to suppress them. Ironically, the emperors who just didn't care about the empire and took no actions against Christians, are remembered by Christians as "good" emperors. Constantine finally threw in the towel and called the Council of Nicea to settle issues of doctrine and restore peace. Issues the bishops could not agree on (like when and where Jesus was born), he settled by decree - that's why we celebrate Christmas on December 25 (Mythra's birthday) and why Mythra's birthplace has a Christian church over the spot (The Church of the Nativity) - pagan revenge. To add to the irony, the Church of the Nativity is administered by two MUSLIM families who were given that task by Suladin.

Constantine did not become a Christian until 337. At the time of his "vision" and the time of the Council of Nicea, he was a pagan and worshipped at the Temple of the Invincible Sun (Many early Christians also worshipped there, conducting services on the buildings step's. Not all Christian/pagan interactions were hostile.).

Above, I asked how many Christians were executed by the Romans: about 2000. I also asked how many Christians were killed by other Christians. About 50,000 in the Albigensian Crusade alone. How many were killed in the 30 Years War, where "Christians" battled "Christians"? Or in the Reformation? Or, or, or ....

Judging Christianity by the way it is practiced, I conclude that it is a death cult, and a very violent one, based on a myth; although, there are a few grains of truth in the myth.

How about Islam? Much the same story, except that the Koran arose from the mind of one man and is thus, a little more consistent, if no more accurate, than the OT and NT.

And now that I have offended both sides of this squabble, I will sign off and await the deluge I have unleashed.

Doug

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So it's a YES, right? You would slit the throat of your son.

You know, I would like to say that I would obey any command from God, but frankly, I'm not sure I could. Abraham showed an incredible amount of faith when he obeyed God. He knew God had promised that Isaac would be the father of a nation, and he trusted God to keep His word, so he knew that either Isaac would not die, or that God would bring him back to life. It took a great deal of faith, and I'm ashamed to say I'm not sure I have that much faith.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not by Jihad! And their religion does not come with barbaric medieval laws.

As a non-Christian I find it weird having to defend them, but these hamfisted attacks on Christianity are really tiring. You Christianity bashers are so barking up the wrong tree.

Truth is not bashing.

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You know, I would like to say that I would obey any command from God, but frankly, I'm not sure I could. Abraham showed an incredible amount of faith when he obeyed God. He knew God had promised that Isaac would be the father of a nation, and he trusted God to keep His word, so he knew that either Isaac would not die, or that God would bring him back to life. It took a great deal of faith, and I'm ashamed to say I'm not sure I have that much faith.

You should not be ashamed of your sense of right and wrong. This indeed is the scary part about the faithful.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I still find it very curious that posters who say they are not Christian, or that they are lapsed Christians, agnostics or even atheists, are not slow in rushing to attack any who dare say one unfavourable word against Christianity. I call these people liars, I say they are all Christians, and due to their loudness and blockheaded stance, are probably fundamentalists.

Of course an alternate view is that they are really not Christian and are simply trying to give Christianity a bad name. If so, please, carry on, and thank you for the good work :)

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You should not be ashamed of your sense of right and wrong. This indeed is the scary part about the faithful.

I don't think you and I are using the same definition of faith.

You see, the definition I am using means "trust." I do not have a "Cross your fingers and really, really, really tell yourself you believe that God exists," kind of faith. I know God exists, I interact with Him on a daily basis, and I have seen Him do some amazing things in my life and the life of others, I no more have to hope He's real than I have to hope my wife is real. I trust Him completely when He says that Jesus's death on the cross is full and proper payment for my sins. And yet, and yet, if I'm honest I have to admit that I'm not sure I would obey Him if He told me to kill my son. Even if He told me my son would be the father of a great nation, I'm truly not sure I would do it. I admire Abraham's level of trust, I aspire to it, because I am not sure I have it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I still find it very curious that posters who say they are not Christian, or that they are lapsed Christians, agnostics or even atheists, are not slow in rushing to attack any who dare say one unfavourable word against Christianity. I call these people liars, I say they are all Christians, and due to their loudness and blockheaded stance, are probably fundamentalists.

Of course an alternate view is that they are really not Christian and are simply trying to give Christianity a bad name. If so, please, carry on, and thank you for the good work :)

No, thank you!

Thank you for making it so clear that you're simply another irrational prejudiced hater.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 2

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.