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kmt_sesh

Dynasty 4 papyrus and port found in Sinai

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Dr. Mohammed Ibrahim, the Minister of State for Antiquities Affaires declared the discovery of one of the most ancient ports in history that date to King "Khufu" at "Wadi el- Jarf" Area, The Red Sea Shore, exactly 180 km. south Suez, Suez- Zafarana Road.

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This is a very interesting discovery. In one excavation archaeologists have found the oldest-known port of ancient Egypt as well as the oldest-known hieroglyphs on papyri documents. Before this discovery, the oldest records were hieratic papyri documents dating to Dynasty 5. This discovery dates to Dynasty 4 and specifically mentions Khnum-Khuf, a.k.a. Khufu, builder of the Great Pyramid. This portion of papyrus preserves the name well:

99e120194e37a6047163887005f7.jpg

In the very top-left corner you can see the cartouche containing the name Khnum-Khuf. In the next register to the right and in an even large scale is the serekh (long rectangular box) containing Khufu's Horus name, Medjedu.

Other sections of papyri record the duties and every-day activities of ordinary people who worked at and lived nearby the port:

7d9814ef3470c00c2e0f6a7067003bb2.jpg?ve=1

It goes to show, there is always something more for archaeologists to find.

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This is a very interesting discovery. In one excavation archaeologists have found the oldest-known port of ancient Egypt as well as the oldest-known hieroglyphs on papyri documents. Before this discovery, the oldest records were hieratic papyri documents dating to Dynasty 5. This discovery dates to Dynasty 4 and specifically mentions Khnum-Khuf, a.k.a. Khufu, builder of the Great Pyramid. This portion of papyrus preserves the name well:

99e120194e37a6047163887005f7.jpg

In the very top-left corner you can see the cartouche containing the name Khnum-Khuf. In the next register to the right and in an even large scale is the serekh (long rectangular box) containing Khufu's Horus name, Medjedu.

Other sections of papyri record the duties and every-day activities of ordinary people who worked at and lived nearby the port:

7d9814ef3470c00c2e0f6a7067003bb2.jpg?ve=1

It goes to show, there is always something more for archaeologists to find.

Thanks kmt_sesh for the post. I bet this find is sticking in a few peoples craw right about now. :w00t:

cormac

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Thanks kmt_sesh for the post. I bet this find is sticking in a few peoples craw right about now. :w00t:

cormac

Why?

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the cartouche with Khufu's name ... it means the aliens lost all rights to patents of pyramid building technology I think ....

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Oh I see; I ignore that stuff so I didn't understand. Do they actually deny his existence?

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Oh I see; I ignore that stuff so I didn't understand. Do they actually deny his existence?

No no no ... only his involvement with building the pyramids and that little problem of not staying where he was supposed to be buried

521457_10151385958564022_1120064392_n.jpg

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Posted (edited)

"They" who we all know, will even now be doing all sorts of mental gymnastics, tautologies and twists and turns to come up with some answer of monumental ignorance. Only a matter of time......

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri
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"Monumental Ignorance."

Excellent pun.

Harte

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excellence par none

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I don't know if this find will actually have much effect on the fringe crowd. The ancient port and its papyri are nowhere near Giza, and none of the papyri have anything to do with the Great Pyramid (in so far as I'm aware).

Those who are active in the Alternative History forum will, however, be familiar with certain posters who deny a king named Khufu actually built the pyramid. LOL Now that I peruse the above posts, I see that all of you are active in the Alternative History forum, so I think you know the posters to whom I refer. Some suggest the Giza pyramids are thousands of years older than conventionally thought, which we now know beyond doubt is laughably incorrect due to modern scientific investigations. Still, that doesn't seem to sway some posters from grasping tenaciously to disproven fringe claims.

Other posters still try to argue that the graffiti in the relieving chambers of the Great Pyramid does not refer to Khufu but to another king (and in some circles, more than one other king), which also doesn't bear further consideration. Those familiar with the linguistics of the ancient Egyptian scripts have no logical reason to doubt the authenticity of the graffiti, and fringe desperation aside, that conclusion is not going to change.

I don't want to drag fringe ideas into this discussion, considering this particular forum is geared toward more scientific discussions. To me this is a very interesting discovery but on purely academic grounds. Fringe proponents don't tend to understand the basics of historical studies in the first place, so I don't imagine they'll appreciate this find one way or the other.

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I don't know if this find will actually have much effect on the fringe crowd.

Yes, ... you do:

Fringe proponents don't tend to understand the basics of historical studies in the first place, so I don't imagine they'll appreciate this find one way or the other.

When has that crowd ever been affected by academic findings?

Okay, I'll stop now with the fringe.

Harte

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I know, Harte. They're natural targets. It's hard for us "skeptics" to control ourselves.

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Posted (edited)

hi kmt

you pointed out in another thread herethat Khufu's birth name and horus name have been found so far on the papyri recovered.

i know they have only found fragments so far, but i was wondering: is there any significance that might be conveyed if Khufu's official title as pharaoh is not present on any of the documents found?

Edited by blackdogsun

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thanks kmt .. most interesting

more pictures of the finds and site here http://news.discover...ered-130412.htm

I thought the most intersting part is this, and I quote from the article

But one papyrus is much more intriguing: it's the diary of Merrer, an Old Kingdom official involved in the building of the Great Pyramid of Cheops.

From four different sheets and many fragments, the researchers were able to follow his daily activity for more that three months.

"He mainly reported about his many trips to the Turah limestone quarry to fetch block for the building of the pyramid," Tallet said.

“Although we will not learn anything new about the construction of Cheops monument, this diary provides for the first time an insight on this matter," Tallet said.

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hi kmt

you pointed out in another thread herethat Khufu's birth name and horus name have been found so far on the papyri recovered.

i know they have only found fragments so far, but i was wondering: is there any significance that might be conveyed if Khufu's official title as pharaoh is not present on any of the documents found?

Hi, blackdogsun. I'm not sure if I fully understand your question about "Khufu's official title" but I'm going to take a stab at it.

The designation "pharaoh" for an Egyptian king (from the ancient Egyptian term pr-aA, "Great House," referring to the palace) did not exist in Khufu's time. It doesn't appear until Dynasty 18, a thousand years after Dynasty 4. The most common word for king was nsw, and this was used in all periods. There were of course numerous other ways to refer to kings (e.g., Lord of the Two Lands, He of the Sedge and Bee). Such designations usually precede the cartouche. I'm seeing the same images of the ancient papyri anyone else here can see on the internet, and those portions with Khufu's names are not preserved to the extent of material preceding the names, so I can't be sure what's there.

But the fact that his formal throne name, Khnum-Khuf, is written inside a cartouche and his Horus name, Medjedu, is inside a serekh, confirm his status as king. Only monarchs were permitted to write their names with these devices.

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I thought the most intersting part is this, and I quote from the article

That is indeed very interesting, Atentutankh. I had come across that same web page but didn't give it much attention because I thought the graphics frame at the top was for a video, and I wasn't interested in viewing a video. I didn't know it was a scrolling graphic with more information in each frame. I'm glad you pointed it out.

If nothing else it's more ammunition against the silly idea that the masonry blocks were made of concrete. Obviously an official being sent to a quarry to secure masonry for the project, was not counting on concrete.

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Hi, blackdogsun. I'm not sure if I fully understand your question about "Khufu's official title" but I'm going to take a stab at it.

The designation "pharaoh" for an Egyptian king (from the ancient Egyptian term pr-aA, "Great House," referring to the palace) did not exist in Khufu's time. It doesn't appear until Dynasty 18, a thousand years after Dynasty 4. The most common word for king was nsw, and this was used in all periods. There were of course numerous other ways to refer to kings (e.g., Lord of the Two Lands, He of the Sedge and Bee). Such designations usually precede the cartouche. I'm seeing the same images of the ancient papyri anyone else here can see on the internet, and those portions with Khufu's names are not preserved to the extent of material preceding the names, so I can't be sure what's there.

But the fact that his formal throne name, Khnum-Khuf, is written inside a cartouche and his Horus name, Medjedu, is inside a serekh, confirm his status as king. Only monarchs were permitted to write their names with these devices.

oh, ok. thanks Kmt

so the names 'Khufu' and 'Khnum-Khuf' are actually one and the same (?)

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Some are claiming it to be the oldest port, dating from 2,600 BC.

How old is it exactly??

Which is the oldest port as of current consensus?? Byblos Port? Byblos is dated to around 3000 BC.

Any info?

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oh, ok. thanks Kmt

so the names 'Khufu' and 'Khnum-Khuf' are actually one and the same (?)

Yes, same guy.

Some are claiming it to be the oldest port, dating from 2,600 BC.

How old is it exactly??

Which is the oldest port as of current consensus?? Byblos Port? Byblos is dated to around 3000 BC.

Any info?

That's one of the problems with internet articles, if not the media in general. How does one define "oldest"? The oldest in Egypt (which is how I'm taking it) or the oldest in the Near East? I frankly don't know anything of substance about ports of ancient Byblos so I can't comment on that, but as of now the Suez discovery marks the oldest port known in Egypt. Prior to this discovery it was the port of Mersa Gawasis on the west coast of the Red Sea. That one dates primarily to Dynasty 12 (beginning c. 1991 BCE).

I've seen other inaccuracies in web articles about the Suez discovery, including that the papyri found there are the oldest yet found. The oldest ever found came from a Dynasty 1 tomb at Saqqara and is around 5,000 years old, but there's no writing on it. But without a doubt the Suez papyri is now the oldest to contain hieroglyphic writing. Off the top of my head I can't think of papyri with hieratic script dating to this time or earlier, so it may be the oldest-known papyri containing a written script in Egypt.

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It goes to show, there is always something more for archaeologists to find.

I'm just glad there's stuff still around to be found and not stolen.

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The aliens planted it to TriX US :o lol

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Many of the papyri describe how the central administration, under the reign of Cheops, sent food -- mainly bread and beer -- to the workers involved in the Egyptian expeditions departing from the port.

BEER for the workers! Cheops was a good man!

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I'm just glad there's stuff still around to be found and not stolen.

Most archaeologists who work in Egypt today believe we have found maybe 40% of what's still out there. Some feel it's even less than that. Trust me, they'll be finding stuff in Egypt long after all of us have turned to dust.

Many of the papyri describe how the central administration, under the reign of Cheops, sent food -- mainly bread and beer -- to the workers involved in the Egyptian expeditions departing from the port.

BEER for the workers! Cheops was a good man!

The Egyptians were cool that way. The oldest evidence for beer production anywhere in the world is in a prehistoric context in the Nile Valley at a site called Hierakonpolis, and dates to around 3600 BCE.

See what we owe the Egyptians!

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Yahoo news - "He mainly reported about his many trips to the Tura limestone quarry to fetch block for the building of the pyramid," Tallet told Discovery News.

Hence proved, GP is built by Khufu.

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