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Bavarian Raven

Germanic/Norse Religions...

64 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Hello UM members. :)

I was wondering if any of you follow the old religion of Germanic paganism (Wodenism, Asatru, etc) and would like to share your beliefs, thoughts, opinions about it. I'm interested in learning more about it but I am not sure where exactly to start (I know the basics but beyond that, not much). :) Plus i'd just be interested to hear your thoughts/takes upon it. Cheers. :)

Edit - I've seen other pagan religious topics go bad. Let's keep this clean, no matter what religion you are. Thanks. :)

Edited by Bavarian Raven

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I used to know a guy in southern Oregon who was a true Norse worshiper. Thor specifically. He had several sets of rituals and such he followed.

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Posted (edited)

Asatru is an almost unbroken continuation of Norse religion. What we have today has come from Iceland as the old religion survived, in part. There is a direct counterpart in Slavic lands and believers are called Rodnovery. I won't give any link to them as nothing is in English, but here is a link to Asatru, closer to you than you may have thought.

http://www.asatru.org/

For information about runes that does not wander off into new age fantasy, there is a book by Bernard King "The Elements of the Runes". Anything about runes is contentious though.

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri
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Asatru is an almost unbroken continuation of Norse religion. What we have today has come from Iceland as the old religion survived, in part. There is a direct counterpart in Slavic lands and believers are called Rodnovery. I won't give any link to them as nothing is in English, but here is a link to Asatru, closer to you than you may have thought.

http://www.asatru.org/

For information about runes that does not wander off into new age fantasy, there is a book by Bernard King "The Elements of the Runes". Anything about runes is contentious though.

Something is either broken or unbroken. "Almost" unbroken = broken.

What we have today is a reconstructionist approach with Asatru .

There also exists traditionalist approaches when it comes to Scandanavian Neopaganism but those have nothing to do with Asatru.

Asatru, the term itself, is from an entertainment product, an opera writen in the 1800s.

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Ásatrú is thousands of years old. It's beginnings are lost in prehistory, but as an organized system, it is older by far than Christianity. Strictly speaking, since Ásatrú is the religion which springs from the specific spiritual beliefs of the Northern Europeans, it is as old as this branch of the human race, which came into being 40,000 years ago.

I don't think this is quite right... AFAIK, the height of norse religion was in the the 13th century AD. It is very logical to assume that the various gods existed in some form before that, but claiming that it goes unbroken back to 0 AD is quite a statement. Various of these gods can be found all over early Europe and some even crossed into Celtic pantheons and the Romans and Greeks. Elements of the 13th century Norse religion contain elements of Greek, Roman and Christian philosophys and situations. Ragnorok is nothing but the Chrisitian Armagedden put into a Norse context. And the Christian Armagedden is very likely borrowed off several earlier religions.

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"Almost unbroken" is simply a figure of speech, not quite the same level as nailing any thesis to the church door at Wittenberg :)

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Asatru is an almost unbroken continuation of Norse religion. What we have today has come from Iceland as the old religion survived, in part. There is a direct counterpart in Slavic lands and believers are called Rodnovery.

Rodnovery? Any relationship to the Baltic Romuva religion?

"Lithuanians thus survived late into history as appreciable representatives of ancient European paganism, preserving this tradition as the official, state religion until the late 14th and early 15th centuries when Christianity was finally accepted by the states of the Grand Duchy, again for political reasons. Lithuanians were thus the last non-nomadic people in Europe practicing pristine Indo-European polytheism."

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Rodnovery? Any relationship to the Baltic Romuva religion?

"Lithuanians thus survived late into history as appreciable representatives of ancient European paganism, preserving this tradition as the official, state religion until the late 14th and early 15th centuries when Christianity was finally accepted by the states of the Grand Duchy, again for political reasons. Lithuanians were thus the last non-nomadic people in Europe practicing pristine Indo-European polytheism."

Родноверие = Rodnovery is from rodna, more usualy seen in the west as rodina (motherland or heimat), and vera, faith/truth, with the etymology clearly connected to the latin veritas. It is not connected Romuva as the Baltic peoples and language are not Slavonic, or their gods, except in the broader context that Indo-European gods, and peoples of course, have a common origin. Slavic Perun and Norse Thor are clearly different names for the same god, though some dispute this, probably for modern political reasons.....

Indeed Lithuanians were the last surviving old pagans in Europe. As I think is common knowledge, all modern pagan religions in Europe date from 19th century. Though in parts of Europe some practises survived. On some runestones in Sweden are indentations. These are for milk to be left in for the elves. This practice has died out now, though it seems to have survived until perhaps the late 19th century. I do not have a source for this to hand now.

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With all the Viking and Game of Thrones tv series, I think it's time to revisit; Whither the Chainmail Bikini?

A Medievalists blog, with humour.

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"Almost unbroken" is simply a figure of speech, not quite the same level as nailing any thesis to the church door at Wittenberg

"Almost unbroken" could seem like an attempt to give it a veneer of historicity, legacy, and tradition. There is nothing wrong with and admitting that it is a reconconstructionist approach. Far too many Neopagans claim their belief goes back thousands of years which ignores the academic reality and in turn seems to dishonor the very tradition they are reconstructing and in whose present form they now hold dear (e.g., as a Christian I understand that what fellow Christians believe is Christian mythology and there is nothing wrong with that in my eyes.)

If someone today took the name of their religion or belief system from an entertainment product (i.e., a movie, a comic book, fantasy novel, or a video game) then how can they claim it is an "almost unbroken tradition of any religion"? Opera was a chief form of entertainment in the 1800s and where Asatru as a word first appeared.

Since you yourself understand that, "all modern pagan religions in Europe date from 19th century," it becomes a case of someone who knows better but will present the material otherwise to those who might not and you do seem to understand and able to explain the material to a higher degree than others.

Of course I am a big fan of history, belief, and most of all imagination so I find nothing wrong with lifting terms from fiction and applying them to your own belief system but then one must clearly state so. "Mythology" to me is not a dismissive or pejorative word since most if not all world beliefs in the realm of religion utilize mythology.

Finally, I am unsure why you are comparing anything being discussed to, "the church door at Wittenburg." If meant to compare Neopaganism with Christianity in the vain that one is superior, well, that is not the type of comparisons I wish to make, I will attempt to understandboth traditions with as much accuracy as possible.

What is most fascinating about this thread is the history being presented here. I myself did not know that Lithuanians were the last pagan kingdom (is this right, per se?). I used to think it was the Old Prussians that clinged on to their beliefs last but it seems they might be a close second (or if not then who is second to last pagans in Europe)?

It is not connected Romuva as the Baltic peoples and language are not Slavonic, or their gods, except in the broader context that Indo-European gods, and peoples of course, have a common origin. Slavic Perun and Norse Thor are clearly different names for the same god, though some dispute this, probably for modern political reasons.....

Is this truly accurate or just a result of interpretatio romana and interpretatio germanica? At first (long ago) I was clearly in the camp that all these deities from differing pantheons had neat equivalents but how much of that is a product of the ancients themselves attempting to equate their deities with those of other societies they came into contact with either through conquest or trade and general acculturation and more specifically religious syncretism?

For instance if one were to truly look into Greek Artemis and Roman Diana we can see they have different origins, were worshipped differently, and had different attributes originally, yet today many believe they are exact equivalents, and while that might somewhat be true "now" they were clearly different entities upon their distinct inceptions.

The Romans did this in an attempt to understand others. The Germans later did this in an attempt to make themselves the heirs of Rome (see: Holy Roman Empire which was not Roman but Germanic but using Roman legal and political precedencts).The Greeks did this before either of them.

Below is a link equating Old Prussian deities with Roman ones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_mythology#Sudovian_Book_and_Constitutiones_Synodales

This list first appeared in the Sudovian Book which is not considered accurate by modern scholarship but is instead treated as a work of fiction and as you most likely understand we can still gleam information from works of fiction and other fantastic accounts. An example of that would be how a tale of someone running out the church, into the church bell tower, and being struck by lightning for a sin they committed. While most would pick sides and argue if such a "miracle" could occur the modern scholar would look at the same information and deduce that at the time it was written church towers in that area were still being buillt separate from the chapel instead of attached to it.

BTW the Prussian Mythology wiki link above mentions Romuva.

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A lot of the Icelandic Sagas are available online;

Here's one link The Saga library (1891) by Snorri Sturluson.

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@Qwerty

My reference to "The church door at Wittenberg" is nothing to do with comparing paganism to Christianity, and all to do with pedantry.

Old Prussians, and for that matter, Pommeranians were not Germanic, they were Slavs and Balts That part of Europe is rather mixed, though some do not like to discuss this. Sorbs and Wends live in territory that most would say has always been "German", yet tell Sorbs and Wends that.

Looking at how Romans compared their gods to those of foreigners, and then saying that they were in fact not related at all, is, in my opinion, not looking at this from a long term view. We can look at a Roman god, for instance Jupiter,and say he is Zeus. Yet go back in time and it will be seen that Zeus comes from Crete. So we see a seperation from Jupiter. Yet this is over a short time span. We must go back further to when European peoples were not so divergent, perhaps even before the major language shifts. Nothing is certain because of total lack of written records, though I believe that the major European gods have a common origin. Of course over time different local gods would have appeared, though this is a distraction. The major problem to fully understanding what people believed is the fact that Christiantiy destroyed and twisted old paganism. In the case of Slavic religion, there was no written record of any description, and all we know is from a Christian perspective. There is not a "level playing field", there is huge in built bias against paganism, built up without any scrutiny or dissenting voice since the Roman empire became Christian. To look down and pour scorn upon people trying to understand what all our ancestors once believed is disrespectful. Christians can quote chapter and verse from their bible, modern pagans have nothing except that which has been distorted by Christians. Except of course that which we know about Ancient Egypt, but I will not discuss that here at this time, this thread is about Northern European paganism.

An example of a pan european god, indeed a pan Indo-European god. Tomorrow in English it is Tuesday. This is from Tiw, in Norse Tyr, in old German Zio, and of course in Latin Deus and in Sanscrit Deva. In modern times in English he is usually known as the Norse Tyr. By the end of Norse paganism he had slipped down the order of gods and was simply the god of war. But originally he was God, for all Indo-Europeans. And sometimes what seem to be different gods are actually the same. Svarog, chief of Slavic gods, is linked with the Vedic Svarga, and hence Sanskrit and then Deva, deus etc etc. Yet in Serbia, Svarog is known as Dabog, and is a dark and dangerous god, the opposite of what he really is, a bright place, the sky. There is of course much more to this and I have drawn a straight line as I do not have time to do otherwise. And I do not have the heart......

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@Qwerty

My reference to "The church door at Wittenberg" is nothing to do with comparing paganism to Christianity, and all to do with pedantry.

I am still not following but this seems equally trying to be insulting as your first reference. If "pedantry" is meant to be derogative then it only tells me you are willing to mix pesudo-history with history, both are fine on their own when clearly labeled as such, but not when mixed together as they serve different purposes.

Old Prussians, and for that matter, Pommeranians were not Germanic, they were Slavs and Balts That part of Europe is rather mixed, though some do not like to discuss this. Sorbs and Wends live in territory that most would say has always been "German", yet tell Sorbs and Wends that.

Discuss it if you can, we are all ears. Modern cultural sensitivies are interesting in their own right but tell us nothing of the actual past which is at the heart of this thread.

Looking at how Romans compared their gods to those of foreigners, and then saying that they were in fact not related at all, is, in my opinion, not looking at this from a long term view. We can look at a Roman god, for instance Jupiter,and say he is Zeus. Yet go back in time and it will be seen that Zeus comes from Crete. So we see a seperation from Jupiter. Yet this is over a short time span. We must go back further to when European peoples were not so divergent, perhaps even before the major language shifts.

You clearly identified a problem when it comes to studying history.

No one said, "they were in fact not related at all," but a question was posed ("Is this truly accurate or just a result of interpretatio romana and interpretatio germanica?").

Your theory and simply ending with, "perhaps even before the major language shifts," does not satisfy the question that was asked.

"Perhaps" are fine when theorizing but when aiming for accuracy in any discussion of history they are less useful.

Nothing is certain because of total lack of written records, though I believe that the major European gods have a common origin.

More theorizing, which again is fine, but what is certain is that (using this example again) Diana and Artemis do not have a foggy mutual origin. They were not different expressions of the same lunar goddess lost in time only to be reunited via interpretatio romana.

If nothing is certain then neither is any belief based on those uncertainties.

Of course over time different local gods would have appeared, though this is a distraction. The major problem to fully understanding what people believed is the fact that Christiantiy destroyed and twisted old paganism. In the case of Slavic religion, there was no written record of any description, and all we know is from a Christian perspective. There is not a "level playing field", there is huge in built bias against paganism, built up without any scrutiny or dissenting voice since the Roman empire became Christian.

You have identified another problem in studing history. I only disagree in that I find the major problem in studying what people believed (back then) to be those who wish to mix history with pseudo-history. I have no issue with either being discussed only when they are combined without being identified for what they are.

We can learn much from the past, even with what little is left. That it is what is certain, what is provable, and that will be of most value. Unfortunately many would rather skip past certain, provable minutiae <=in favor of=> presenting a more fantasic, overall account which will be as inaccurate as a book written by Stitchin.

To look down and pour scorn upon people trying to understand what all our ancestors once believed is disrespectful.

This has nothing to do with an academic approach to history and serve no purpose to the general conversation except to highlight your own biases against academia.

Christians can quote chapter and verse from their bible, modern pagans have nothing except that which has been distorted by Christians. Except of course that which we know about Ancient Egypt, but I will not discuss that here at this time, this thread is about Northern European paganism.

Another pagan vs Christian reference which I will not be interested in today.

An example of a pan european god, indeed a pan Indo-European god. Tomorrow in English it is Tuesday. This is from Tiw, in Norse Tyr, in old German Zio, and of course in Latin Deus and in Sanscrit Deva. In modern times in English he is usually known as the Norse Tyr. By the end of Norse paganism he had slipped down the order of gods and was simply the god of war. But originally he was God, for all Indo-Europeans. And sometimes what seem to be different gods are actually the same. Svarog, chief of Slavic gods, is linked with the Vedic Svarga, and hence Sanskrit and then Deva, deus etc etc. Yet in Serbia, Svarog is known as Dabog, and is a dark and dangerous god, the opposite of what he really is, a bright place, the sky. There is of course much more to this and I have drawn a straight line as I do not have time to do otherwise. And I do not have the heart......

Until you find evidence and can source your example of a pan-Eurpean deity it should be noted that is not the current consensus. We have hints that things were once related but no proof. We can relate them again but it will fall under the umbrella of mythology, again not a bad place to begin, not even a bad place to start a modern religion from, just let us not pretend it is anything other than it is.

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@Qwerty. Find someone else to play with, not me. I am tired of such pettyness and deliberate distorting of what I say. And by the way, look at your posts and then look at definition of pedantry, and perhaps google Wittenberg and Martin Luther. Perhaps you may then be able to join the dots. I will not respond to you further, no matter the provocation.

Apologies to Bavarian Raven, but I will not contribute here anymore in the face of this nonsense from any poster. They must think I am still wet behind ears.....

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The major problem to fully understanding what people believed is the fact that Christiantiy destroyed and twisted old paganism. In the case of Slavic religion, there was no written record of any description, and all we know is from a Christian perspective.

I also wanted to add nuance to the stated view above which claims, "the fact that Christianity destroyed and twisted old paganism," is the, "major problem to fully understanding what people believed."

While it is true that most of the knowledge we have about ancient pagans was actually written by Christians, sometimes hundreds of years later, the actual major problem is that the ancient pagans kept no records at all and that Christians (a religion which could not have existed without literacy) did keep records.

Also many (not saying this is the view that Atentutankh holds or presented since he did not) believe that foreign Christians came to destroy the pagans.

We have the case of Clovis who converted to Christianity because of his wife, Æthelberht of Kent also converted because of his wife, and Olaf Tryggvason's convesion is attributed to a legend where he met a seer.

It is true in turn Clovis and Olaf I forced their own people and neighbors to convert but this is a different picture than what is commonly believed by many Neopagans today.

Again the true impediment to understanding what others believed in the past is the willingness of those who would combine history with pseudo-history especially if they allow their own biases to enter the picture.

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Posted (edited)

Interesting (to me) side topic but my apologies as well if anyone was bothered. I prefer not to allow pseudo-historians to pass off their (still interesting) theories as history. If they had discipine they could differentiate between the two calmly.

Back on topic, there is a difference between reconstructionism and traditionalism. One is free to choose from either but if one wants the most accuracy then traditionalism is the way to go. In Neopagan circles those who follow traditionalism are known as trads. Just keep in mind that groups in North America will have different purposes than those in Scandanavia with most North American groups veering towards reconstructionism and presenting a "whole religion" that might have never existed in the past in the way we consider religions today.

Below are terms and concepts (bolded for emphasis) that can get you started if you desire to get in touch with traditionalists.

Folketro (Danish, Norwegian) or Folktro (Swedish) is the Scandinavian for “folk religion” or “superstition“, referring to Scandinavian folklore in particular. In Scandinavian neopagan discourse, the term is used for a religion that consists of a folklore that is believed to be the descendant of historical Norse paganism. Folktro is considered a living tradition and that does not include the use of reconstructionism in any way, nor the use of historical sources such as the Edda or notation of folklore. The term is in conscious contrast to Asatru, the reconstructionist revival of medieval Norse polytheism. Preferred terms are fornsed ”old custom” or nordisk sed ”Nordic custom”, avoiding the connotation of hard polytheism evoked by reconstructionist approaches centered on the Aesir. Attention is rather given to traditional song, dance, folk music and festivals.

Critics refer to the Folketro movement as Funtrad (for Fundamentalistisk Traditionalisme ”fundamentalist traditionalism”. Not to be confused is the “radical traditionalism” of the New Right, which invokes national mysticist or occultist notions of a “Pan-Indo-European tradition” rather than the unpretentious focus on regional customs advocated by Folketro.

Proponents of Folketro include: Samfälligheten för Nordisk Sed, Sweden and Foreningen Forn Sed, Norway

https://marcelgomess.../tag/tolerance/

There are also less provocative approaches to gleaming information from the past without having to resort to pseudo-history and blaming any one group for the loss of records which might have never been written contemporarily.

The sources of our knowledge about Norse paganism are varied, but do not include any sacred texts that prescribe rituals or explain them in religious terms. Knowledge about pre-Christian rituals in Scandinavia is composed mainly from fragments and indirect knowledge. For instance the mythological eddas tell almost nothing about the rituals connected to the deities described. While the sagas contain more information on ritual acts, they rarely connect those to the mythology. All these texts were written in Iceland after the Christianisation and it is likely that much knowledge about the rituals had then been lost. The mythological tales survived more easily, and the information found in them is probably closer to pagan originals.

http://en.wikipedia...._interpretation

Now my recommendations to learn more about Scandanavian folklore and practice are below.

RMN Newsletter is an open access bi-annual publication of Folklore Studies / Department of Philosophy, History, Culture and Art Studies, University of Helsinki (ISSN 1799-4497), appearing in December and May of each year.

http://www.helsinki....ka/English/RMN/

" ... presents the main features of Siberian shamanism, as they are relevant for comparison with Norse sources, and examines the Norse texts in detail to determine how far it is reasonable to assign a label of "shamanism" to the human and divine magical practices of pre-Christian Scandinavia, whose existence, it is argued, in many cases resides mainly in the imaginative tradition of the poets." -- Back cover.

http://books.google....id=lmIsAQAAIAAJ

Edited by Leave Britney alone!

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I don't think this is quite right... AFAIK, the height of norse religion was in the the 13th century AD. It is very logical to assume that the various gods existed in some form before that, but claiming that it goes unbroken back to 0 AD is quite a statement. Various of these gods can be found all over early Europe and some even crossed into Celtic pantheons and the Romans and Greeks. Elements of the 13th century Norse religion contain elements of Greek, Roman and Christian philosophys and situations. Ragnorok is nothing but the Chrisitian Armagedden put into a Norse context. And the Christian Armagedden is very likely borrowed off several earlier religions.

No... Norse religion was on the wane by 9th Century. It still clung on in parts of Scandinavia but was gradually being replaced by Christianity. It certainly goes back to pre-christian times in one form or another (ask the Romans).

I think you may be getting confused by the Prose Edda, written in 13th c. and compiled from earlier sources. There are pictoral representations at least back to the 10th c. Also, if you read the whole thing, it is very different to the Christian Armageddon.

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No... Norse religion was on the wane by 9th Century. It still clung on in parts of Scandinavia but was gradually being replaced by Christianity. It certainly goes back to pre-christian times in one form or another (ask the Romans).

I think you may be getting confused by the Prose Edda, written in 13th c. and compiled from earlier sources. There are pictoral representations at least back to the 10th c. Also, if you read the whole thing, it is very different to the Christian Armageddon.

Most of the written Norse works that I looked up were 13th or 12th century. That is why I said what I did. These being the clear defining works that outline who the gods were and what each god did and what each god had charge of.

If you went to anyone who said they followed Odin, or Thor, or Loki, or all Aesir... They would probably directly describe what came out of the Prose Edda.

The Romans reported many gods of the Germanic peoples, but whether those proto-norse gods were the same god (Thor, Odin, Tyr, Heimdal, Loki) as have become commonly known is up for debate, IMHO. Certainly Odin was known as Woden as early as 400AD, but even the Norse Language does not go back to 0 AD.

Certainly the Proto-Germanic peoples had similar gods, but might that not be the difference between Zoasterism and Christianity, or Islam and Judaism? Religions can be very similar and have similar roots, but ultimately be different philosophys entirely, or paracticed very much differently.

If we consider Norse to be the same as the Proto-Germanic Religon, which traveled into northern Europe probably 3000 years ago, then we can also say that Christianity is the same as Judiasm, which started about the same time.

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Posted (edited)

If you went to anyone who said they followed Odin, or Thor, or Loki, or all Aesir... They would probably directly describe what came out of the Prose Edda.

It is strongly doubtful that a believer of any of the deities you mentioned would have, "directly describe(d) what came out of the Prose Edda," seeing that the very first lines of the Prose Edda begin with, "In the beginning God created heaven and earth and all those things which are in them; and last of all, two of human kind, Adam and Eve, from whom the races are descended."

The Prose Edda quickly goes on to tell that the Norse deities were actually once humans, Trojans, who left after the war there, moved north, and because of their superior culture became the leaders of the natives up north.

The Prose Edda

As an historian and mythographer, Snorri is remarkable for proposing the theory (in the Prose Edda) that mythological gods begin as human war leaders and kings whose funeral sites develop cults (see euhemerism). As people call upon the dead war leader as they go to battle, or the dead king as they face tribal hardship, they begin to venerate the figure. Eventually, the king or warrior is remembered only as a god.

Snorri Sturluson

Then we can see that the natives "forgot" that these were men and began to worship them as gods. So a believer in those deities would never have mentioned the Trojan origins which was also popular with others including the Franks and the British. In fact Geoffrey of Monmouth, who added to the Arthurian legends and in whose most popular form can be ascribed to him, also claimed the kings of Britian had Trojan origins.

Edited by Leave Britney alone!

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Posted (edited)

@ Bavarian Raven

I quote from your OP "I was wondering if any of you follow the old religion of Germanic paganism (Wodenism, Asatru, etc)". Nobody else has stepped forward, which is a pity, though perhaps because they know of the heap of nonsense that will fall on them. I had thought not to return to this thread because of the very creepy attack on me, and not just in the open on this thread, Hmmm.

However, the deliberate destruction of the old religions coupled with the twisting of what remains, presents us with a one sided view, and works very much against such as I. Christian pedants can quote this or that writing or physical evidence, though they "spin" it to their advantage. Having had a free hand in this for many centuries, it is now difficult to see what the old pagans believed, and this is what Christians want of course. I can quote the same references as others here, and more, as I rather suspect they don't know much about Rodnovery, except perhaps some English wiki article, or their priest telling them lies. Now, I was not raised as a Christian,so have a mind unpolluted by that religion, polluted by other things maybe, but not Christianity. Therefore I can view the old religion in a clearer light than the Christians on this forum. And who the hell are they to lecture pagans about a religion that Christians destroyed? However, a picture paints a thousand words, so, lifted from my wierd blog, a video I made to show, I hope, a pagan thought process. To hopefully show what is in the mind of a pagan living today. I had thought that is one of the reasons for your OP, not some dry debate and nonsense from pagan haters. The video shows what is to come, what is hidden beneath the surface that will rise again (see the second picture), the return of the old gods (whether in reality or only in peoples minds), the hope for the future, (third from last picture), the Sun without which nothing on Earth exists, and something of mine added at the very end to represent eternity, and a sort of trademark :) I hope this partly answers your OP. It is not directly about the old Germanic religions, though I believe the mindset of old Germanic and old Slavonic pagans would have been very similar, as it seems to be today.

This was a thread clearly primarily for pagans to give answers, and I have answered.

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri
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It is strongly doubtful that a believer of any of the deities you mentioned would have, "directly describe(d) what came out of the Prose Edda," seeing that the very first lines of the Prose Edda begin with, "In the beginning God created heaven and earth and all those things which are in them; and last of all, two of human kind, Adam and Eve, from whom the races are descended."

The Prose Edda quickly goes on to tell that the Norse deities were actually once humans, Trojans, who left after the war there, moved north, and because of their superior culture became the leaders of the natives up north.

Ahh... Maybe I was thinking of the Poetic Edda?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda

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@ Bavarian Raven

I quote from your OP "I was wondering if any of you follow the old religion of Germanic paganism (Wodenism, Asatru, etc)". Nobody else has stepped forward, which is a pity, though perhaps because they know of the heap of nonsense that will fall on them. I had thought not to return to this thread because of the very creepy attack on me, and not just in the open on this thread, Hmmm.

However, the deliberate destruction of the old religions coupled with the twisting of what remains, presents us with a one sided view, and works very much against such as I. Christian pedants can quote this or that writing or physical evidence, though they "spin" it to their advantage. Having had a free hand in this for many centuries, it is now difficult to see what the old pagans believed, and this is what Christians want of course. I can quote the same references as others here, and more, as I rather suspect they don't know much about Rodnovery, except perhaps some English wiki article, or their priest telling them lies. Now, I was not raised as a Christian,so have a mind unpolluted by that religion, polluted by other things maybe, but not Christianity. Therefore I can view the old religion in a clearer light than the Christians on this forum. And who the hell are they to lecture pagans about a religion that Christians destroyed? However, a picture paints a thousand words, so, lifted from my wierd blog, a video I made to show, I hope, a pagan thought process. To hopefully show what is in the mind of a pagan living today. I had thought that is one of the reasons for your OP, not some dry debate and nonsense from pagan haters. The video shows what is to come, what is hidden beneath the surface that will rise again (see the second picture), the return of the old gods (whether in reality or only in peoples minds), the hope for the future, (third from last picture), the Sun without which nothing on Earth exists, and something of mine added at the very end to represent eternity, and a sort of trademark :) I hope this partly answers your OP. It is not directly about the old Germanic religions, though I believe the mindset of old Germanic and old Slavonic pagans would have been very similar, as it seems to be today.

This was a thread clearly primarily for pagans to give answers, and I have answered.

Thank you for your reply and link. The people of the old religions do take a lot of flack these days - i guess the big three religions are just insecure. I'll give you a more thoughtful reply this weekend when I have more time. Until then, Cheers and peace :)

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Posted (edited)

@ Bavarian Raven

I quote from your OP "I was wondering if any of you follow the old religion of Germanic paganism (Wodenism, Asatru, etc)". Nobody else has stepped forward, which is a pity, though perhaps because they know of the heap of nonsense that will fall on them. I had thought not to return to this thread because of the very creepy attack on me, and not just in the open on this thread, Hmmm.

However, the deliberate destruction of the old religions coupled with the twisting of what remains, presents us with a one sided view, and works very much against such as I. Christian pedants can quote this or that writing or physical evidence, though they "spin" it to their advantage. Having had a free hand in this for many centuries, it is now difficult to see what the old pagans believed, and this is what Christians want of course. I can quote the same references as others here, and more, as I rather suspect they don't know much about Rodnovery, except perhaps some English wiki article, or their priest telling them lies. Now, I was not raised as a Christian,so have a mind unpolluted by that religion, polluted by other things maybe, but not Christianity. Therefore I can view the old religion in a clearer light than the Christians on this forum. And who the hell are they to lecture pagans about a religion that Christians destroyed? However, a picture paints a thousand words, so, lifted from my wierd blog, a video I made to show, I hope, a pagan thought process. To hopefully show what is in the mind of a pagan living today. I had thought that is one of the reasons for your OP, not some dry debate and nonsense from pagan haters. The video shows what is to come, what is hidden beneath the surface that will rise again (see the second picture), the return of the old gods (whether in reality or only in peoples minds), the hope for the future, (third from last picture), the Sun without which nothing on Earth exists, and something of mine added at the very end to represent eternity, and a sort of trademark I hope this partly answers your OP. It is not directly about the old Germanic religions, though I believe the mindset of old Germanic and old Slavonic pagans would have been very similar, as it seems to be today.

This was a thread clearly primarily for pagans to give answers, and I have answered.

Nice video, thank you for this entertaining presentation.

The content of the post is so whiny and the Christian vs pagan mindeset, the us vs them mindest, is old, outdated, and does more harm to all than good. Both silly Christians and Neopagans need to enter the 21st century.

I myself am a Christopagan and understand paganism is something more than entertainment, fantasy pictures, pretending to be an ancient priest, wearing funny robes, using greetings like "Merry Meet", or any other mumbo jumbo.

Paganism is real, allows balance, reconnection to the earth, but it isn't all about nature either since most of us live in the city. It isn't about hating where you live if in the city, wanting to live in the country, or see society destroyed as it is now because people who think like us are outnumbered, that is not balance. We all want change but it won't come through hating others.

I have left offerings at trees (ones I find a connection with and not because they have a carved or photshopped face on them), devised my own spells, and still believe in the faith healers known as curanderos (who are a part of my culture and continue the living tradition). It is more folk healing and practices and not a religion that is in competition with any other.

I will admit I know less about Germanic and Scandanavian paganism, especially since I lament the fact that they were very masculine sun worshippers, and that they wiped out the Celts, who were more feminine moon worshippers. I do know much about history and had the Celts not been pushed back to the very corners of Europe we might live in a more fair and balanced world with less agression as displayed by both Christians and Neopagans who want nothing but to destroy and talk bad about others instead of finding balance.

What is certain to me is that academia has more answers than reconstructionists when it comes to how things were long ago.

I don't think paganism has much to do with electric guitars and rock music mixed with chants in an attempt to sound ancient and pagan, that is just another form of entertainment. Neither do I find that Germanic or Scandanavian paganism has anything to do with Egyptian symbols.

I don't know the language but you could probably learn more form a video like this (and notice the clothes is rather normal):

[media=]

That is the real deal and not just pretend.

Ahh... Maybe I was thinking of the Poetic Edda?

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Poetic_Edda

Great! I was beginning to wonder.

One view is that the Poetic Edda's were written by a heathen but in a culture who had Christian influence to some degree. That they were the material of minstrels commited to the written word after being passed on solely by word of mouth. How much was changed in that process is up for debate but the Poetic Edda is much older than the Prose Edda, indeed. Thank you for setting it straight for us.

Edited by Leave Britney alone!

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Posted (edited)

The post above shows what I am up against in this forum. This poster describes themselves as a Christopagan, troll like garbage. He also has the habit of sending me insulting PMs. This gets rather wierd, but I know from experience that some will stop at nothing to close down debate. Some openly scream at you, others, like this one, use more subtle means, though they are not so subtle to me, as I saw this type of BS very often.

To anybody else, please do not be fooled by this poster, he tells lies. The post above this is full of garbage and sly distortions. An example is that he has made a comment to show that I have confused European pagan symbols with those from AE, so "proving" that I am confused and don't know what I am talking about, and indeed most of his post is along these lines. Yet I wrote this in my description of the video "and something of mine added at the very end to represent eternity, and a sort of trademark" This clearly shows the last image was not meant to be seen in context with the other images. But with posters like him, perfection is demanded at all times, or he will be all over you, just like trolls operate, always looking for the smallest error or perceived error. I hope the intelligent people on this forum, and I know there are many, will see through this posters cheap tricks. He will reply with the same type of garbage against me. Oh he will seem very polite and informed, but his posts are full of distortions and sly and patronising insults.

And as I have come across creeps like this before, I will pre-empt a possible reply from him. He sent me a long and rambling PM that was essentially one long insult. I replied, without abuses, that he should keep out of my way. Today he sent a second PM that was much shorter and just an insult, my reply had two words, you can guess which two. I write this as it is likely he will post some lies here about this matter, but that is what this poster likes to do.

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri

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