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Saru

Hawking: 'Big Bang did not need God'

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Posted (edited)

Speaking as a physicist, I'm not sure that has to be true.

Do the laws of physics (and math, and logic, etc.) exist outside our Universe?

They could, but I'm not sure that they have to.

Ok, I'm not a physicist, I don't assert that they have to exist inside or outside. All I'm saying is that whether it be law of universe or law of anything, there must be a trigger for the formation of the universe

The Big-Bang IS God, along with everything else that is and isn't (matter / anti-matter, dark energy / light energy, and all that stuff). Let's keep it simple. God is the Universe. There is only one God. There is only one Universe. Include all those Multiverses in the one Universe - by definition: UNI - verse. Next! So, the next question that follows is: Was the Big Bang the creation of our Sun, or the Universe (as we currently and physically perceive it, according to all generally accepted and established laws of human scientific endeavor, i.e. according to the current hierarchical structure of the High Priests of Earthly Science.), or both, i.e. do we live at the tunnel-ending of a black hole, thereby speeding up our conscious perceptions, very slowly at first, then, picking up speed? And, finally (thank God - I can take just so much of this BS,) how does using the red shift as a standard for orientation work for the condition of space curved by black holes and dark matter, especially when those condensed charge clusters just come and go as they please, all "willy-nilly" (with all due respect to Mr. Rumsfeld?) I mean, hit a few of those babies when they expand out in space and you got yourself a navigation issue if you're just trying to use the assumed straight lines and dead reckoning of red shift. Not to worry. Google has it all worked out already. juan miguel d'honkie-gringo miranda, Certified 9th Degree Wacko Philosopher-Charlatan

Okay, but it still doesn't explain how God-BB came into existence. If you say it's always been there, I think no one could deny it nor approve it.

Edited by FlyingAngel
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It is possiable that the big bang was god. Who knows. Thats like what the first poster said. You have to have faith to beleive in the GOD concept. However Ive read a lot of Hawkings work and Ill tell you it makes a lot of sense. There was a show on awhile back on DICS and it was something he said that caught my attention. At the very beginning of the universe there was nothing not even time. NOTHING could exist before time therefore neither could god. Sooooo maybe the big bang was god coming into exisitance.... who really knows right? God could have even been the very first life form in the universe. However all that being said, I don't know if god exsists or not all I know is Ive read a lot and have come to my own conclusion :)

Great post tho

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What puzzles me is what god are we talking about?

Is the god who (possibly) created the universe a generic god, or is it one's opinion of what god it's supposed to be? If this god is not a god of any specific religion, then no one has any knowledge of it, except to believe it exists.

Looking at the history of life on earth and human behavior throughout history, what is our relationship to this god?

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Imaginary numbers are not really mysterious, and they come about very naturally from pure mathematics. They are not connected to any single physical degree of freedom (like charge).

It could, but it probably shouldn't; any more than the fine structure constant, the various Planck scales, the speed of light, etc. should be interpreted as a ``fingerprint of God''.

Yeah, whatever giberiish that is, here's my oppinion:P.

Big Bang Theory = Absolute Rubbish; Not a bit of evidence to Support

God = Somewhat Unrealistic; Enough evidence IS here however to support such an idea.

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Yeah, whatever giberiish that is, here's my oppinion:P.

Big Bang Theory = Absolute Rubbish; Not a bit of evidence to Support

God = Somewhat Unrealistic; Enough evidence IS here however to support such an idea.

.

pot.

kettle.

black.

.

i'd be interested to know if your ''evidence'' for the existence of god would stand up in any court where the judge & jury were over all over the age of seven?

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Hawking has good support, excellent doctors and no doubt a strong will. Hawking is not the issue, however. He made the point that the big bang happened and that it didn't need God. He is correct, and there is abundant evidence for anyone who is willing to look. I did a quick Google search on "evidence for the big bang" and found plenty of sites that explain it all, not just what happened but how we know that is what happened.

It's true that there is loads of evidence for the Big Bang. However, what happened next - inflation - is damn dicey.

According to current quantum theory, nothing would stop the inflation phase. Quantum variablility would cause it to continue randomly, with some areas not inflating, while others continue to do so.

Last time I read about this, the inflating areas would very quickly take over the entire Universe, and what you would have is, essentially, permanent inflation with ever-decreasing (in relative size) area of no inflation.

Obvioulsy, that's not happening. Also obviously, you can blame this problem on outr lack of full understanding of reality.

On the other hand, though, it certainly indicates that we absolutely don't know enough about it to make a statement like "The Big Bang didn't need God," which is merely technically correct because the statement doesn't mention inflation.

Without inflation, the Big Bang would have been no big whoop.

Lastly, it seems a little disingenuous for Hawking to poke fun at people by sarcastically asking "what was God doing before the Divine Creation," while at the same talk he went into M-Theory as a possible answer to how the Universe came to be.

M-Theory postulates time before the Big Bang - just like the religious minded do. The M-Theory time is not the time we experience, however, it is the time experienced in the multiverse where the membranes (branes) are floating around and occasionally knocking into each other (causing big bangs - but not inflation.)

Harte

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The laws of physics just magically coalesced and wrote themselves into existence soon after the big bang I guess.

Yes, there is even evidence that this is what happened, except not magically. There's a new field of Cosmology that studies exactly that. One wierd idea in that field is the physical laws and constants experience a kind of evolution, where unsuccessful rules are weeded out into non existence.

Harte

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Hawking draws his conclusions about the Universe based upon his analysis of data and equations. So we have to assume the data is accurate and the equations have a solid foundation. What if the system of physics currently in use is flawed? Sure, the physics works in many cases, but it does not work in all cases. For example, the calculation of impedance and other values requires the invention of the non-existent square root of negative one, the imaginary number. And even then, the calculation comes close only for a limited range of values.

That "imaginary" number is as real as any other number.

Isaac Asimov claimed to have demonstrated this truth to his English prof as an undergraduate, who was ridiculing the concept in much the same way you are.

His Prof asked him to explain how SQRT(-1) exists, and Asimov said that he would, if the prof would hand him a "half a piece of chalk."

The prof handed him some chalk, and Asimov said "This is a piece of chalk. I asked for a half piece of chalk.

Does a half piece of chalk exist? Does the number "one" exist? Where is it?

I have found a possible source for the imaginary number. It is the result of choosing the wrong notation for charge in equations. If charge is notated as a distributed quantity (squared) relative to a single dimension of mass, then it is easy to unify the fundamental forces using Newtonian type equations.

Flapdoodle Deluxe!

Sorry, the imaginary number i is the root of the equation x2+1=0. That equation, written as y=x2+1 is a parabola you can easily graph in the XY plane.

Quadratic equations have roots. Quadratics, and i, predate the discovery of electricity itself.

People need to question Stephen Hawking and the flaws of the science he relies on before drawing conclusions about the nature of the Universe. Such ignorant statements that he makes could become the basis of a new religion, which is just as destructive as any his statements might aim to replace.

People do question the flaws of science. Some good questioners actually make a living doing so. They are called "Pysicists." Hawking has never accomplished a "Big Thing," like relativity, but he has, on a few occasions, completely demolished some things in Physics that were, before Hawking, thought to be understood.

Harte

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Why, in the face of something we don't yet know, must people simply invent things to fill the gaps? Seems pretty silly to me...

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No. Law of physics have to exist before the big bang. It didn't just expanded by itself without a trigger.

Maybe the big bang didn't even happen at all. We're still inside the big bang...

You contradict yourself; if the big bang didn't happen, we can't still be inside it. I don't think you have much of an idea what you mean when you talk about "The laws of physics."

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The latest studies of the background radiation indicate that inflation was real. It may be that we are in a bubble of what we think of as normal space while for the most part inflation goes on and on, every now and then producing other bubbles like us, or there may be a self-cancelling factor that stops the inflation when certain thresholds are reached. We are reaching out to times and places so remote from us that we are able to conclude anything at all is astonishing.

That there are unanswered questions does not negate the evidence we do have. There will always be unanswered questions, and we may be approachig a point where the questions become so extreme to test that no device we can build will give us answers.

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Posted (edited)

Yeah, whatever giberiish that is, here's my oppinion:P.

Big Bang Theory = Absolute Rubbish; Not a bit of evidence to Support

God = Somewhat Unrealistic; Enough evidence IS here however to support such an idea.

The Big bang theory has scientific evidence, God has none. And that isn't an opinion, it's a fact in science. Edited by Rlyeh
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Yes the big bang has abundant evidence, I wouldn't say that God has no evidence, but just that the evidence is unconvincing.

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Yes the big bang has abundant evidence, I wouldn't say that God has no evidence, but just that the evidence is unconvincing.

That's why I carefully used the term scientific evidence, God may have evidence but it doesn't hold up to the scientific method.
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Posted (edited)

It is possiable that the big bang was god. Who knows. Thats like what the first poster said. You have to have faith to believe in the GOD concept. However Ive read a lot of Hawkings work and Ill tell you it makes a lot of sense. There was a show on awhile back on DICS and it was something he said that caught my attention. At the very beginning of the universe there was nothing not even time. NOTHING could exist before time therefore neither could god. Sooooo maybe the big bang was god coming into exisitance.... who really knows right? God could have even been the very first life form in the universe. However all that being said, I don't know if god exists or not all I know is Ive read a lot and have come to my own conclusion :)

Great post tho

Yes I agree.I think that the big bang was God! He created a physical realm.The previous realm was God,in spiritual form.Then came the physical realm. Edited by GirlfromOz

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Posted (edited)

It is hard for many to understand God in all his works.He was there at the beginning of time.He created man in his own image.Man was created in God's image.Therefore,man was blessed in being the one creation that God cherished.Even God told his angels to worship us,man.Satan hated that very fact.Even the fallen angels that followed Satan hated us all.We are all his children.He prizes us above all because we are truly his highest project that he ever created!Just remember that God loves us all.We are his children!

Edited by GirlfromOz

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Your notion is not at all hard to understand, it just isn't true.

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The latest studies of the background radiation indicate that inflation was real. It may be that we are in a bubble of what we think of as normal space while for the most part inflation goes on and on, every now and then producing other bubbles like us, or there may be a self-cancelling factor that stops the inflation when certain thresholds are reached. We are reaching out to times and places so remote from us that we are able to conclude anything at all is astonishing.

Here's a PDF from Sci Am about the subject:

The Inflation Debate

Harte

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It is hard for many to understand God in all his works.He was there at the beginning of time.He created man in his own image.Man was created in God's image.Therefore,man was blessed in being the one creation that God cherished.Even God told his angels to worship us,man.Satan hated that very fact.Even the fallen angels that followed Satan hated us all.We are all his children.He prizes us above all because we are truly his highest project that he ever created!Just remember that God loves us all.We are his children!

Everything you said is unsubstantiated and about as factually correct as Zeus ruling Mount Olympus.

You need to understand this isn't the preaching forum.

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For science that article is a bit long in the tooth.

http://www.nature.co...niverse-1.12658

http://www.nature.co...niverse-1.12658

Y3es, the Sci Am article is hairy, but it explains the problem very well.

Your link is about evidence for the Big Bang and inflation. If there are people that think the Big Bang and inflation didn't happen, then they are simply screwheaded holdouts and no amount of scientific evidence will convince them.

However, postulating both the Big Bang and inflation doesn't get us where we are now, due to the problems with quantum variability, as the Sci Am article explains.

Maybe religious folk can find God's Hand in the halting of inflation. At least, for now.

Harte

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One cannot explain spiritual matters like GOD through Science.

Science/Physics/Maths are tools which may help us in some ways.

The most important thing I would expect from Physicians is a discovery of how to overcome gravity (antigrav) and to make it possible for humans (or at least robots) to survive accelerations in order to get (at least) close to lightspeed.

These are basic requirements for reasonable spaceflight and they achieved..., well, nothing???

Science is overrated and (ab)used to make money like everything else in this 'modern times'.

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I find the most fascinating thing about inflation is not that it stops but that it fills the space it creates with high-temperature low-entropy energy. We should think about how we might do something similar when our present universe begins to approach heat death. Better yet get a source of renewable energy from empty space. (Of course I can see hazards involved).

I've seen several items where good proposals for how to stop inflation are made. I think the problem is not that we can't figure out how to stop it as much as we don't know which of several possibilities actually did it.

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Dear Katzenking: physicians are medical people. What you are talking about are physicists. It does kinda weaken your argument when you make mistakes like that.

I think science is neither over nor under rated. It is what it is and does what it does. Belief in God is a bit passe and has been for a few hundred years, but it does seem to persist.

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Posted (edited)

One cannot explain spiritual matters like GOD through Science.

Science/Physics/Maths are tools which may help us in some ways.

The most important thing I would expect from Physicians is a discovery of how to overcome gravity (antigrav) and to make it possible for humans (or at least robots) to survive accelerations in order to get (at least) close to lightspeed.

These are basic requirements for reasonable spaceflight and they achieved..., well, nothing???

Science is overrated and (ab)used to make money like everything else in this 'modern times'.

"Science isn't doing what I want it to do, therefore it is stupid" is shorter and conveys the same message of ignorance. Edited by Rlyeh
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