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Saru

Hawking: 'Big Bang did not need God'

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So, since we obviously have the folks with all the answers here....

What came before the big bang? Where did it come from?

We all agree it happened, i'm just waiting for the smart fellas to explain why it happened and what caused it.

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You know I have utterly no faith that the sun will rise tomorrow. I expect it to happen for good reason and don't need faith.

Perhaps not, but at some level science is based on what I think can reasonably described as ``faith''.

Scientific theories, like all theories, are based on axioms. These axioms provide the starting assumptions for the theory; proving these axioms is not possible within the confines of that theory.

I think one could call these axioms the ``basis of faith in science''; these are the things that must be accepted without proof.

Obviously a key aspect of science is reducing the set of axioms as much as possible (in stark contrast to religion).

But at some point you will end up with axioms like:

The behaviour of physical objects can be accurately predicted with mathematical expressions, and reality adheres to rules which can be deduced using logic, reason, and mathematics, that cannot be ``proven'', because we don't have access to tools that are not already assumed by the axiom. (Basically Godel's incompleteness theorem.)

I bring this up because, in my opinion, debates between science and religion should not involve the claim that science does not rely on faith, but rather that science strives to remove as much faith as possible; and if not express those elements of faith in a way that is at least testable.

Start with a few basic scientific axioms, and one can derive the laws that govern the motion of the planets (as just one example).

Start with a rather large book full of basic religious axioms (i.e., the Bible), and I am not sure what you can derive.

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(harte, there wasn't any light for thousands of years after the big bang dude, it was too hot to form photons.....)

(he says in a stage whisper)

;-)

Phht!

A mere blink of an eye.

Harte

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Big Bang theory has about as much evidence of existence as God.

Not quite, we know with on certainty bordering probability that the universe is expanding; if it is expanding it was smaller a moment ago, and much smaller a long while ago and, given the speed of expansion, concentrated on a pinhead about 13.000 billion years ago. Given all that matter on a pinhead it had no choice but to blow up, which is a good explanation why the universe is still expanding.

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What came before the big bang?

Where did it come from?

We all agree it happened

.

fields of potentiality.

everywhere.

some people don't.

:-)

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So, since we obviously have the folks with all the answers here....

What came before the big bang?

FAQ cosmology

The standard Big Bang model is singular at the time of the Big Bang, t = 0. This means that one cannot even define time, since spacetime is singular. In some models like the chaotic or perpetual inflation favored by Linde, the Big Bang is just one of many inflating bubbles in a spacetime foam. But there is no possibility of getting information from outside our own one bubble. Thus I conclude that: "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."

Where did it come from?

Where did what come from? Our matter? Click on my name→profile→ and follow the link that says "The Big Bang in 750 words"

We all agree it happened, i'm just waiting for the smart fellas to explain why it happened and what caused it.

You humans, and your causality biases :w00t:

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The religious should take a moment and realize that the Big Bang is not only not incompatible with certain religious myths, but it is aligned with those myths to an astonishing accuracy.

Or, what would the result of "let there be light" actually look like?

Harte

Actually the text should read "let there be light", "then darkness again for a few hundred million years", "then it can be light again after the cosmic dark ages have ended"

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Actually the text should read "let there be light", "then darkness again for a few hundred million years", "then it can be light again after the cosmic dark ages have ended"

You can't expect 2nd millenium BC historians to get everything right now, can you?

:devil:

Harte

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You can't expect 2nd millenium BC historians to get everything right now, can you?

:devil:

Harte

If it's divinely revealed, yeah :w00t:

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Hawking = the arrogance of mankind with a little knowledge, with so little information gleaned from a pinprick in the outposts of the universe.

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Hawking = the arrogance of mankind with a little knowledge, with so little information gleaned from a pinprick in the outposts of the universe.

Actually Hawking is not nearly so arrogant as he has a right to be, and he has a sense of humor and readily pays off on bets he loses. You sound a lot more arrogant than he is.

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I don't think any of us are meant to know much

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If it's divinely revealed, yeah :w00t:

Quod illic est qua canis est septus.

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Look at the guy. He's stuck in a wheelchair and is completely miserable. As he sees it there is no God, so what?

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I don't belive in the big bang theory, it cannot be tested, observed, or measured. And for someone to say it all happened 13.7 billion years ago is outrageous! Someone once said "An explosion in a printing shop could not produce the dictionary". It takes majesty and a divine hand. It was not by accident, nor by a ridiculous explosion haha. If that was the case, what happened before the big bang? The Big Bang theory ignores the First law of Thermodynamics, which says "matter cannot be created or destroyed". Those who believe in the Big Bang theory are also either unaware of, or ignore the "Second Law of Thermodynamics" which says "Everything tends towards disorder". So rather than the chaos (big bang) becoming ordered (our universe), just the opposite would be true.. And it is. Our complex universe is wearing down, and becoming more chaotic...American physicist Robert V. Gentry's research shows that rocks known as Precambrian granites were created almost instantly as a part of the creation (as recorded in Genesis 1:1) and "are not the product of the evolution of the earth." He says "the Big Bang version of primordial polonium is without any scientific basis." The way I see it is there are only 2 choices. Either someone created the earth, or the earth created itself. If you think the earth created itself, hey more power to you. One thing i do know is that IT CANNOT BE TESTED OR OBSERVED! End of story! Its a ridiculous theory!

Some scientsits say there are stars that are 18-20 billion light years from us, if this is true, it contradicts the big bang theory that happened 13.7 billion years ago. It doesn't make sense.

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I don't belive in the big bang theory, it cannot be tested, observed, or measured. And for someone to say it all happened 13.7 billion years ago is outrageous! Someone once said "An explosion in a printing shop could not produce the dictionary". It takes majesty and a divine hand. It was not by accident, nor by a ridiculous explosion haha. If that was the case, what happened before the big bang? The Big Bang theory ignores the First law of Thermodynamics, which says "matter cannot be created or destroyed". Those who believe in the Big Bang theory are also either unaware of, or ignore the "Second Law of Thermodynamics" which says "Everything tends towards disorder". So rather than the chaos (big bang) becoming ordered (our universe), just the opposite would be true.. And it is. Our complex universe is wearing down, and becoming more chaotic...American physicist Robert V. Gentry's research shows that rocks known as Precambrian granites were created almost instantly as a part of the creation (as recorded in Genesis 1:1) and "are not the product of the evolution of the earth." He says "the Big Bang version of primordial polonium is without any scientific basis." The way I see it is there are only 2 choices. Either someone created the earth, or the earth created itself. If you think the earth created itself, hey more power to you. One thing i do know is that IT CANNOT BE TESTED OR OBSERVED! End of story! Its a ridiculous theory!

Some scientsits say there are stars that are 18-20 billion light years from us, if this is true, it contradicts the big bang theory that happened 13.7 billion years ago. It doesn't make sense.

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9938_574169755940509_1131936456_n.jpg

something doesn't make sense here too ....

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Posted (edited)

Someone once said "An explosion in a printing shop could not produce the dictionary".
Why would an explosion produce a man made object??
It takes majesty and a divine hand.
And that requires ignorance.
The Big Bang theory ignores the First law of Thermodynamics, which says "matter cannot be created or destroyed". Those who believe in the Big Bang theory are also either unaware of, or ignore the "Second Law of Thermodynamics" which says "Everything tends towards disorder". So rather than the chaos (big bang) becoming ordered (our universe), just the opposite would be true.. And it is. Our complex universe is wearing down, and becoming more chaotic...
Actually the first law states energy can change but not be created or destroyed. The second law states "in all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the state will always be less than that of the initial state."

http://www.emc.maric...obookener1.html

Chaos theory shows that apparent chaos is not lack of order.

American physicist Robert V. Gentry's research
And refuted with isotopic decay.

"As 222Rn is the precursor for 218Po, this polonium isotope is the first one to be formed in the decay process. Although the half life of 218Po is relatively short (3.05 minutes), enormous numbers of 222Rn concentrate as a dissolved element along with silica in hydrous fluids, which then migrate in response to tectonic pressures into porous sites in the mafic crustal rocks."

http://www.csun.edu/...05/revised8.htm

Some scientsits say there are stars that are 18-20 billion light years from us, if this is true, it contradicts the big bang theory that happened 13.7 billion years ago. It doesn't make sense.

The universe is expanding, think about it. Edited by Rlyeh
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I don't belive in the big bang theory

Thankfully, science doesn't care whether you believe in it or not. It doesn't make it any less right.

it cannot be tested, observed, or measured

Actually it can. From the expansion of the universe to the cosmic microwave background, everything we see indicates an origin such as the big bang.

And for someone to say it all happened 13.7 billion years ago is outrageous!

Er... why?

Someone once said "An explosion in a printing shop could not produce the dictionary"

It couldn't. But the big bang wasn't an explosion and the universe isn't a dictionary.

It takes majesty and a divine hand. It was not by accident, nor by a ridiculous explosion haha.

I wasn't an explosion. And it wasn't an accident. Maybe come up with a more informed argument?

If that was the case, what happened before the big bang?

We're well on our way to explaining that, but you creationist types will obviously ignore any scientific explanation, because it doesn't involve a big bearded guy who lives in the sky.

The Big Bang theory ignores the First law of Thermodynamics, which says "matter cannot be created or destroyed".

So science is right when it suits you huh?

You do realise that Jesus healing the sick and turning water into wine also ignore the laws of thermodynamics?

(oh, and the big bang doesn't violate any physical laws - close the creationist websites and try reading a science book)

Either someone created the earth, or the earth created itself.

There is no scientist on the planet who claims these are the only two options. You're making it up as you go along.

Some scientsits say there are stars that are 18-20 billion light years from us, if this is true, it contradicts the big bang theory that happened 13.7 billion years ago. It doesn't make sense.

Source?

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The Universe is of force fields and matter,something has to be behind the force.:)

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The Universe is of force fields and matter,something has to be behind the force. :)

And that's the best argument you have?

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The Universe is of force fields and matter,something has to be behind the force. :)

Yeah, like strings and branes.
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Everything you said is unsubstantiated and about as factually correct as Zeus ruling Mount Olympus.

You need to understand this isn't the preaching forum.

But Zeus did rule Mount Olypmus..

read that in a book.. and saw it in a movie..

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Lo

Lots of people who believe in karma (Buddhists, Hindus, etc.) "do good things" because they gain merit from it and superstitiously think this brings good luck. The opposite -- refraining from sin -- has the opposite karmic effect and brings bad luck and may even result in a rebirth as someone blind or crippled.

Us pagans to believe in Karma :D

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A Buddhist who does good things for the karmic merit in fact thereby negates the merit. This is well understood.

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