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Dark_Grey

"Alien Structures on the Moon"

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Braggart.

:D:lol:

LOL, I reckon seeing as I only paid $550.00 brand new for mine in Aussie dollars, that we should all save up and by one! I think that is awesome value, much bang for your buck with the Dob :D

dob10.jpg

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:alien: Hello, puny, primitive, barely able to sctratch one's ears, earthings. My name is Zork. Any questions before we blast your planet? :alien:

"But Mr Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months."

"Oh yes, well as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn't exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything."

"But the plans were on display ..."

"On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."

"That's the display department."

"With a flashlight."

"Ah, well the lights had probably gone."

"So had the stairs."

"But look, you found the notice didn't you?"

"Yes," said Arthur, "yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'."

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Yeah, the arguments are so persuasive, that it is certain that we are the only inhabited planet in the cosmos.

I have yet to see anybody try to argue that.

There is simply no way that other beings could exist or know how to travel in time and dimensions. Heck, how could there be other dimensions? Humans don't know about it, so it must not exist. :whistle:

What a pathetic strawman. Again, can you point me to a single poster claiming that no other beings exist? No, you can't. Secondly, with our technological level it is not possible to traverse the vastness of space. however, maybe some ET can. Who knows? We are not arguing about some imaginary ET race somewhere, of which we know nothing. We are debating the evidence for ET visitation here on Earth. And that is, to put it mildly, seriously lacking!

Cheers,

Badeskov

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That's awesome. I'm definitely going to use that in the future.

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The Whalers & Honey Boo-Boo ! :tu:

Good one HMS

Why thank you :nw:

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Well, "could be" and "is" are two different things. It is indeed very possible that there is advanced ET life somewhere in the vastness of the cosmos. And, it "could be" that said ET life has paid the Earth a visit...but ET visitation "is not" a fact at this point in time.

In an official capacity I would offer a caution here: Do not use profanity or ad hom remarks towards those you disagree with. Such is not only against UM rules but does nothing to support your argument (actually works against you).

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Never heard of Jacques Vallee have you? Held in high regard here amongst many members, and quite possibly I think all of us are struggling to keep up with him.

The main difference being fantasy and reality. Yes space is big, mind bogglingly so in fact, yet you assume that some alien has managed to cross it, why? Can you tell me why I should believe a bunch of super beings out there managed to overcome physics, and why only such advanced species exist out there? Why don't species like ourselves ever make contact when we have had the ability to travel Interstellar space since the 60's? Why is it we seem to be the only species in the galaxy who canot surpass light, and why are we avoided because of this? Seems a little convenient, like such has been written to support a particular argument I would think?

Firstly, I think the knowledge man does not possess is far greater than the knowledge he does possess. "crossing space" might very well be an example of what we might not know. As the Moody Blues sang decades ago, thinking is the best way to travel. They might be right.

Secondly, as one lady put it on TV a few weeks back, now with the success at the Hadron Collider, we can now say that there are no mathematical restrictions against exceeding the speed of light. That implies alot. I guess before Higgs, we were restricted, mathematically, by Einstein's theory, which many knew was imperfect.

There is much evidence that we have been visited, and even more evidence that governments round the world have suppressed this evidence.

Have it your way Psyche. :tsu:

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Yeah, the arguments are so persuasive, that it is certain that we are the only inhabited planet in the cosmos. There is simply no way that other beings could exist or know how to travel in time and dimensions. Heck, how could there be other dimensions? Humans don't know about it, so it must not exist. :whistle:

Who is saying that exactly?

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The idea is that the universe is so big aliens must exist out there somewhere, and this is proof that we have been and are being visited by them but the world's governments in a big conspiracy hide the fact. This is usually listed by logicians as a "non sequitur."

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The idea is that the universe is so big aliens must exist out there somewhere, and this is proof that we have been and are being visited by them but the world's governments in a big conspiracy hide the fact. This is usually listed by logicians as a "non sequitur."

Exactly, the hypothesis that there's most likely intelligent life elsewhere in the universe does *zip/zero/nada* to support the "we've been visited by them" hypothesis.

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Actually that's not true at all.

You can say the same thing about whether or not my neighbor routinely has flaming squirrels shooting out of his. I don't know for certain that he doesn't and you don't know for certain that he does - but I can be confident in saying it doesn't happen given the evidence at hand.

I see what you are saying, but flaming squirrels is obviously absurd. ETs on the other hand Even Stephen Hawking(google it) says that there's probably something to that...

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I see what you are saying, but flaming squirrels is obviously absurd. ETs on the other hand Even Stephen Hawking(google it) says that there's probably something to that...

But there's a world of difference between the claim that ETs exist, and that ETs have visited our solar system and left artefacts on the moon.

Did Stephen Hawking say that there's probably something to the idea that extraterrestrials exist or to the idea that they have been to the moon and there is evidence of their visit(s)? Not that it really matters, Stephen Hawking is a world class expert on subjects like astrophysics, cosmology, etc. and not on whether or not ETs exist. He may be a far smarter man than me, but like anyone, should not be taken as an authority on anything outside his areas of expertise.

It is the specific claim that there are alien artefacts or anomalies on the moon that people are objecting to, not the more general claim of the mere existence of ETs somewhere out there.

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But there's a world of difference between the claim that ETs exist, and that ETs have visited our solar system and left artefacts on the moon.

Did Stephen Hawking say that there's probably something to the idea that extraterrestrials exist or to the idea that they have been to the moon and there is evidence of their visit(s)? Not that it really matters, Stephen Hawking is a world class expert on subjects like astrophysics, cosmology, etc. and not on whether or not ETs exist. He may be a far smarter man than me, but like anyone, should not be taken as an authority on anything outside his areas of expertise.

It is the specific claim that there are alien artefacts or anomalies on the moon that people are objecting to, not the more general claim of the mere existence of ETs somewhere out there.

He said (I'm paraphrasing) mathematically the probability of ETs existing is REALLY high, but he also later said that trying to communicate with them would be a dumb idea because if their morality is anything like ours, they most likely will come to take what they want rather than share what they have...

This is just how I read what he said though. Here's a link..

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2010/04/25/stephen-hawking-aliens_n_551035.html

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He said (I'm paraphrasing) mathematically the probability of ETs existing is REALLY high, but he also later said that trying to communicate with them would be a dumb idea because if their morality is anything like ours, they most likely will come to take what they want rather than share what they have...

This is just how I read what he said though. Here's a link..

http://www.huffingto...s_n_551035.html

From your link;

He said: "If aliens ever visit us, I think the outcome would be much as when Christopher Columbus first landed in America, which didn't turn out very well for the Native Americans."

According to Hawking's own words he doesn't think we have been visited yet. I do disagree with him though about aliens possibly gathering resources from Earth as it would be a relatively expensive proposition since there is an abundance of resources that are much easier to retrieve (gas clouds, asteroids, moons etc.etc) than dealing with our gravity and atmosphere.

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I don't know why people, even authorities as respected as Stephen Hawking, always seem to assume that the Aliens would not only behave exactly like us, but exactly like us one or two hundred years ago. That they'd exterminate us or corral us into resevrations so they could exploit our resources. Why might they not just want to carry out a program of scientific study, and so this planet might actually be of not inconsiderable interest to them, even if we might not? This could account for some at least UFO Sightings- that they are indeed ET Craft, - and also why they haven't Made contact, or said Howdy to us, because they've no wish to.

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Exactly, the hypothesis that there's most likely intelligent life elsewhere in the universe does *zip/zero/nada* to support the "we've been visited by them" hypothesis.

Indeed, and to me, then the question becomes "how did certain artifacts and edifices get here, if man was still in the hunter-gatherer stage?"

For example, how could hunter-gatherers have the knowledge displayed by the work at Gavrinis Island, but for one example?

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I don't know why people, even authorities as respected as Stephen Hawking, always seem to assume that the Aliens would not only behave exactly like us, but exactly like us one or two hundred years ago. That they'd exterminate us or corral us into resevrations so they could exploit our resources. Why might they not just want to carry out a program of scientific study, and so this planet might actually be of not inconsiderable interest to them, even if we might not? This could account for some at least UFO Sightings- that they are indeed ET Craft, - and also why they haven't Made contact, or said Howdy to us, because they've no wish to.

Why then come here? If they are having to travel huge distances the chances of another earth like planet nearer to them is probably pretty likely. If they are not interested in us as an intelligent species they would likely find other planets without anyone to bother with in the first place.

If ufo's equal alien hardware then, IMO, they would likely be un-aliened probes like Viking or MRO. Far safer and cheaper to send one of those then a crewed vehicle especially if you do not want to interact with the natives. Speculating of course since we have nothing to show 'they' have been anywhere close to here.

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Posted (edited)

I have yet to see anybody try to argue that.

What a pathetic strawman. Again, can you point me to a single poster claiming that no other beings exist? No, you can't. Secondly, with our technological level it is not possible to traverse the vastness of space. however, maybe some ET can. Who knows? We are not arguing about some imaginary ET race somewhere, of which we know nothing. We are debating the evidence for ET visitation here on Earth. And that is, to put it mildly, seriously lacking!

Cheers,

Badeskov

No, I was employing a bit of sarcasm. Only I have made that claim, in jest, but many many other posters make arguments that taken to their logical conclusion suggest that any signs of visitation on this planet, or on topic, the moon, is somehow an hallucination or complete fabrication by those who suggests earlier visitors. They cannot explain these phenomena except with a "maybe this or maybe that" type statement, but they are absolutely certain that there is no way the artifact could have come from foreign visitors. No way.

That may not be the intention, but that is the way the 'argument' comes across.

Edited by Babe Ruth

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Indeed, and to me, then the question becomes "how did certain artifacts and edifices get here, if man was still in the hunter-gatherer stage?"

For example, how could hunter-gatherers have the knowledge displayed by the work at Gavrinis Island, but for one example?

While it seems interesting what is so odd about it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavrinis

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Posted (edited)

Indeed, and to me, then the question becomes "how did certain artifacts and edifices get here, if man was still in the hunter-gatherer stage?"

For example, how could hunter-gatherers have the knowledge displayed by the work at Gavrinis Island, but for one example?

What about the Gavrinis monument indicates that extra-terrestrials had anything to do with it?

Agriculture in north west Europe dates back to thousands of years before the megalithic tombs like Gavrinis were constructed, indicating that it was built by settled farmers, not by hunter-gatherers.

Does this look like something built by extra-terrestrials who had the technology to cross inter-stellar space?

800px-Cairn_Gavrinis_entrance.jpg

Edited by Archimedes

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Why then come here? If they are having to travel huge distances the chances of another earth like planet nearer to them is probably pretty likely. If they are not interested in us as an intelligent species they would likely find other planets without anyone to bother with in the first place.

They wouldn't come just to here over all those vast distances of Space which everyone is always so keen to talk about, but I'm talking about a program of Scientific research, studying all the planets in each system they find systematically. Not that there's necessarily anything they'd "want" from any one of them. As one with such a complex ecosystem (which, as many have said, developed through such an incredibly complex set of circumstances that all had to be exactly right), this particular planet might actually be of a lot of scientific interest.

If ufo's equal alien hardware then, IMO, they would likely be un-aliened probes like Viking or MRO. Far safer and cheaper to send one of those then a crewed vehicle especially if you do not want to interact with the natives. Speculating of course since we have nothing to show 'they' have been anywhere close to here.

Absoluely. That's always been my argument.

What about the Gavrinis monument indicates that extra-terrestrials had anything to do with it?

Agriculture in north west Europe dates back to thousands of years before the megalithic tombs like Gavrinis were constructed, indicating that it was built by settled farmers, not by hunter-gatherers.

Does this look like something built by extra-terrestrials who had the technology to cross inter-stellar space?

800px-Cairn_Gavrinis_entrance.jpg

But look at that Precision! :P

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What about the Gavrinis monument indicates that extra-terrestrials had anything to do with it?

Agriculture in north west Europe dates back to thousands of years before the megalithic tombs like Gavrinis were constructed, indicating that it was built by settled farmers, not by hunter-gatherers.

Does this look like something built by extra-terrestrials who had the technology to cross inter-stellar space?

800px-Cairn_Gavrinis_entrance.jpg

Remember their motto. They don't believe that humans could do it so it must have been aliens.

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Monkeys could of done that given a few more million years, Man is afterall just a bit above them, Key word there "BIT" I always like Babe Ruths attempts to side step the topic about Moon Bases and such. We all know that the only thing on the moon other than the junk we left Its all Moon Rocks,and dust ! I will bet my one and ont dollar on that. I can Prove it ! Book a flight to the Moon and take a walk about Baber!

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Firstly, I think the knowledge man does not possess is far greater than the knowledge he does possess. "crossing space" might very well be an example of what we might not know. As the Moody Blues sang decades ago, thinking is the best way to travel. They might be right.

That is why we speak to people like Vallee, experts in the field you are guessing about. Man knows more than you realise, you just have to ask him. Might well be is not an argument it is a musing. It has nothing to do with the here and now. There might well be spotted gigantic elephants with wings living in the upper atmosphere of Jupiter too, but I have no reason to think so. The Moody Blues might be right, have they been about anything else? Do we have Nights in White Satin? Maybe they meant Nights in White Saturn? How far down this rabbit hole do you want to go? We can guess until the end of time. I'd rather try and know now and build upon the impressive knowledge base we have to date. Man is the Universe contemplating itself, that's good enough for me.

Secondly, as one lady put it on TV a few weeks back, now with the success at the Hadron Collider, we can now say that there are no mathematical restrictions against exceeding the speed of light. That implies alot. I guess before Higgs, we were restricted, mathematically, by Einstein's theory, which many knew was imperfect.

And how many times have I heard that over the last 80 years? Remember Neutrinos being faster than light? The last fifty or so claims about the speed of light over the last 100 years or so have all had "implications" and they all amounted to squat.

Einstein knows his theory is imperfect and he is dead. GR and QM do not play together, until they do, we have a problem. That is no big secret. It does not mean Einstein is wrong either.

There is much evidence that we have been visited, and even more evidence that governments round the world have suppressed this evidence.

The plural of anecdote is not data. That is one basic fact that FTB's do not seem to be able to comprehend. There is no chance in hell that the US can hide Interstellar traffic fro the rest of the world, and as you well know, America is not globally popular. As such, the CT's just make no sense, the entire might of the UN cannot even keep the Sea Shepherd docked. Countries violate the Nuclear Test ban all the time, France, Italy, Vietnam, Korea, you name it. If you try to tell me the US has the entire globe in it's back pocket and everyone os keeping the ET secret for the US I doubt you would even believe yourself would you?

There are some tall tales that do not add up to anything, that is what we have.

Have it your way Psyche. :tsu:

My way is that which can be qualified, and not guessed or made up.

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I don't know why people, even authorities as respected as Stephen Hawking, always seem to assume that the Aliens would not only behave exactly like us, but exactly like us one or two hundred years ago. That they'd exterminate us or corral us into resevrations so they could exploit our resources. Why might they not just want to carry out a program of scientific study, and so this planet might actually be of not inconsiderable interest to them, even if we might not? This could account for some at least UFO Sightings- that they are indeed ET Craft, - and also why they haven't Made contact, or said Howdy to us, because they've no wish to.

I do not think he is saying that is the case, but rather it is s possibility that nobody considers.

"We only have to look at ourselves to see how intelligent life might develop into something we wouldn’t want to meet," Hawking said. "I imagine they might exist in massive ships ... having used up all the resources from their home planet. Such advanced aliens would perhaps become nomads, looking to conquer and colonize whatever planets they can reach.”

Note he uses "imagine" and "might". I think he is just trying to get people to think.

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