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Harsh86_Patel

Great Pyramids VS Egyptian Pyramids

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The motive of this thread is to discuss the very apparent differences between the Great Pyramids and the other Egyptian pyramids.The differences are so great that it goes against our natural intleligence to believe that they were built by the same AE or were contemporary with the other AE pyramids.

Also the focus of the discussion will also be on "Water/Rain errosion marks on the Sphinx" and the "Vyse Forgery".

Shout out to KMT_Sesh and Scott Creighton to comment on the same.

http://en.wikipedia....yptian_pyramids

This link has pictures of a wide variety of Egyptian Pyramids. Starting with great pyramids. Please compare for yourself the other pyramids and the great pyramids, and think for yourself whether they are built by the same peoples.

AmenemhetIPyramid.jpg

Amenemhet's pyramid.

Pyramid_of_sneferu_Meidum_01.jpg

Pyramid of Meidum

800px-Saqqara_stepped_pyramid.jpg

Step pyramids of Djoser

800px-Nuri_main_pyr.northeast.jpg

Nuri main pyramid.

Please see the above half baked attempts of reproducing something as spectacular as the great pyramids.

800px-All_Gizah_Pyramids.jpg

The great pyramids. Notice the small ones in the front, they look very Ancient Egyptian like, but the great pyramids are something else.

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Posted (edited)

My apologies, if i were a bit harsh on you. Sometimes, i can be a real pain. Once again, my apologies.

Now , coming to the Pyramids,

If you would look at this link, which lists out the Pyramids of Ancient Egypt, chronologically, you can see that (listing only the pyramids in your post)

1st Comes The Step Pyramid of Djoser, which is essentially Mastabas of decreasing sizes stacked/built on top of each other.

Then comes The pyramid of Meidum, which is essentially larger, taller mastabas stacked on top each other. this one was built for for Huni, a pharaoh of the 3rd dynasty, which was unfinished, but which was continued to be built under the reign of Sneferu.

This is the phase where the AE's took their experimentation with the construction a notch up, with Sneferu's second pyramid, the bent pyramid.

perhaps the AE didn't like its bent shape and they refined it further with the Red Pyramid or the North Pyramid , for Sneferu again.

Geez! This guy was a perfectionist for the shape of the Pyramid, eh!

The culmination of the proper pyramidal architecture is in Khufu's pyramid.

The diversion in the pyramids is in the size of the Nuri main pyramid, you have listed, and the Other Pyramids built in Nubia, by the Black Pharaohs or the 25th Dynasty of Egypt. perhaps the Black pharaohs understood that if they went on the large scale construction followd by the older AE, they would go bankrupt and they cannot make their own people work hard or the people got wiser.

The 25th Dynasty was founded by invasion of Ancient Egypt by the Kushites and is by general consensus not fully considered a proper AE Dynasty, though they ruled over complete Egypt.

Their Pyramids were not on the large scale of the older Pyramids.

NubianMeroePyramids30sep2005%282%29.jpg

In the above picture, you can see the older pyramids built by the Nubian and the new ones in the front built by the nouveau riches.

And every Nubian of social standing could get one of these mini pyramids if they had the money.

Of course all the pyramids you have listed above, except for the Nubian one was built by proper Ancient Egyptians.

Just my opinion of what i have learnt ..only. No warranties or guarantees on what i know.

Edited by The_Spartan
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The different design of the GP may be based on the possibly one century older Hellenikon pyramid in Greece.

With the method of optical thermoluminescence the monument was dated at 2730 BCE, the period in which metallurgy in Greece was in its peak. The archaeological excavations from the lower stratigraphy unearthed protohelladic II or Early Bronze Age findings.

http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=19298

However, not everybody agrees with the dating of the Hellenikon Pyramid:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_pyramids#Excavations_and_dating

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When I'm talking about Egypt's "great pyramids" I'm talking about the huge

masonry pyramids that got bigger and bigger until they stopped building them

after G2 (Khafre's Pyramid). Look at the bottom graph on this page;

http://www.egyptorigins.org/marklehner.htm

This obscures the fact that the work involved in building pyramids isn't just the

weight of the stone. The work is the weight times the height so this graph is

highly misleading. Later pyramids are little tiny structures in advanced states

of ruin but the great pyramids were all huge.

For practical purposes we should use different terms complely for "great pyramids"

and the others. We could call the others piles of rubble but there are all sorts of

tiny pyramids that still exist so the issue is easily confused. It is this confusion

that is aiding in obscuring facts about the great pyramids.

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My apologies, if i were a bit harsh on you. Sometimes, i can be a real pain. Once again, my apologies.

Now , coming to the Pyramids,

If you would look at this link, which lists out the Pyramids of Ancient Egypt, chronologically, you can see that (listing only the pyramids in your post)

1st Comes The Step Pyramid of Djoser, which is essentially Mastabas of decreasing sizes stacked/built on top of each other.

Then comes The pyramid of Meidum, which is essentially larger, taller mastabas stacked on top each other. this one was built for for Huni, a pharaoh of the 3rd dynasty, which was unfinished, but which was continued to be built under the reign of Sneferu.

This is the phase where the AE's took their experimentation with the construction a notch up, with Sneferu's second pyramid, the bent pyramid.

perhaps the AE didn't like its bent shape and they refined it further with the Red Pyramid or the North Pyramid , for Sneferu again.

Geez! This guy was a perfectionist for the shape of the Pyramid, eh!

The culmination of the proper pyramidal architecture is in Khufu's pyramid.

The diversion in the pyramids is in the size of the Nuri main pyramid, you have listed, and the Other Pyramids built in Nubia, by the Black Pharaohs or the 25th Dynasty of Egypt. perhaps the Black pharaohs understood that if they went on the large scale construction followd by the older AE, they would go bankrupt and they cannot make their own people work hard or the people got wiser.

The 25th Dynasty was founded by invasion of Ancient Egypt by the Kushites and is by general consensus not fully considered a proper AE Dynasty, though they ruled over complete Egypt.

Their Pyramids were not on the large scale of the older Pyramids.

NubianMeroePyramids30sep2005%282%29.jpg

In the above picture, you can see the older pyramids built by the Nubian and the new ones in the front built by the nouveau riches.

And every Nubian of social standing could get one of these mini pyramids if they had the money.

Of course all the pyramids you have listed above, except for the Nubian one was built by proper Ancient Egyptians.

Just my opinion of what i have learnt ..only. No warranties or guarantees on what i know.

Spartan there are quite a few differences Between the Great Pyramids and the others. The scale and size is very obvious, the quality of construction and architecture is another big difference, the Heiroglyphs that are abundant in the other Pyramids and scarcity of the same in the great pyramids is again a major difference.

Though you made a good attempt, if you can list down simmilarities and differences between the great pyramids and the others, it would be a great excercise.

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When I'm talking about Egypt's "great pyramids" I'm talking about the huge

masonry pyramids that got bigger and bigger until they stopped building them

after G2 (Khafre's Pyramid). Look at the bottom graph on this page;

http://www.egyptorig.../marklehner.htm

This obscures the fact that the work involved in building pyramids isn't just the

weight of the stone. The work is the weight times the height so this graph is

highly misleading. Later pyramids are little tiny structures in advanced states

of ruin but the great pyramids were all huge.

For practical purposes we should use different terms complely for "great pyramids"

and the others. We could call the others piles of rubble but there are all sorts of

tiny pyramids that still exist so the issue is easily confused. It is this confusion

that is aiding in obscuring facts about the great pyramids.

I believe that the other pyramid builders were trying to emulate the Great Pyramids which were already existing as a refference.
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My opinion is the larger pyramids are built by Kings and Pharoahs with bigger egos than those before or after them.

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I noticed this crown on who is suppose to be the father of Khufu. Looks like Osiris crown and what the Tyrian Heracles has on his head.

170px-Snofru_Eg_Mus_Kairo_2002_b.jpg

Osiris is first attested in the middle of the Fifth dynasty of Egypt, although it is likely that he was worshipped much earlier;[4] the term Khenti-Amentiu dates to at least the first dynasty, also as a pharaonic title.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris

So, could the crown represent the term Khenti-Amentiu, which means the wearer was at the time, the 'Osiris', Foremost of the Westeners, the one in charge of the dead? A person in a form that later became associated with Osiris but prior to Osiris as said, whose form may have been worshipped earlier - could appear in the wearing of this crown...

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Spartan there are quite a few differences Between the Great Pyramids and the others. The scale and size is very obvious, the quality of construction and architecture is another big difference, the Heiroglyphs that are abundant in the other Pyramids and scarcity of the same in the great pyramids is again a major difference.

Though you made a good attempt, if you can list down simmilarities and differences between the great pyramids and the others, it would be a great excercise.

I think you are not quite getting my point.

The pyramids, in the sequence are the growth of an architectural style.

from the stepped mastaba pyramid, to the bent pyramid to the red pyramid and culminating in the great pyramids.

naturally earlier pyramids were smaller in size, but rich in artistry.

Then came the size does matter ideology.

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Posted (edited)

I think you are not quite getting my point.

The pyramids, in the sequence are the growth of an architectural style.

from the stepped mastaba pyramid, to the bent pyramid to the red pyramid and culminating in the great pyramids.

naturally earlier pyramids were smaller in size, but rich in artistry.

Then came the size does matter ideology.

The stepped pyramid appears to be a logical predecessor of the GP.

The Mesopotamian ziggurats are stepped pyramids, much like the Incan ushnus

20100407-Ushnu%20Vilcas%2001.jpg

Ushnu_zps3c36acbf.jpg

Ushnu2_zps30a0ab33.jpg

Edited by Abramelin

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The stepped pyramid appears to be a logical predecessor of the GP.

The Mesopotamian ziggurats are stepped pyramids, much like the Incan ushnus

20100407-Ushnu%20Vilcas%2001.jpg

Ushnu_zps3c36acbf.jpg

Ushnu2_zps30a0ab33.jpg

I guess they experimented and learnt to fill in the steps of the step pyramids to get a pyramidial shape.

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The Giza pyramids certainly do look different, if you post a pic of them against your own hand-picked pics of Egyptians pyramids that look different.

How about the Red Pyramid?:

200px-Dahschur-snofru-red.jpg

Slightly different angle, but so are all three Gizamids.

Same thing as the Giza ones, otherwise.

Harte

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It's the evolution of the ancient Egyptian pyramids -----------> http://www.touregypt...idevolution.htm

Simply put...

It cannot be evolution, it has to difference in the builders.

The Giza pyramids certainly do look different, if you post a pic of them against your own hand-picked pics of Egyptians pyramids that look different.

How about the Red Pyramid?:

200px-Dahschur-snofru-red.jpg

Slightly different angle, but so are all three Gizamids.

Same thing as the Giza ones, otherwise.

Harte

What is the size difference??

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different designers, different persons, same people.

It is the evolution of the pyramids, of course they have variations in shapes, sizes, materials, construction methods and etc. That's what you would expect from the re-construction of numerous pyramid-like structures over a long period of time. They would adjust and alter the pyramids accordingly to benefit their wants, needs, resources and other contributing factors, perhaps you prefer, the term "experimenting"?. The fact that they have changed accordingly throughout time, does not give you enough evidence or reason, for you to draw the conclusion that they must have been built, designed and constructed by a different group of people entirely, makes no logical sense. :blink:

The evolution of the pyramid in a short and simplistic manner...

-Prehistoric pit graves

-Mastaba's

-Step Pyramids

-Meidum Pyramids

-Bent Pyramids

-The Great Pyramids (Giza)

and the

-New Kingdom Pyramids (most commonly found in Nubia)

For more on this, visit -----> http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/egyptians/pyramid_gallery.shtml

and for furthermore information about who and when, built certain pyramids, visit ------------> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Egyptian_pyramids :tu:

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different designers, different persons, same people.

It is the evolution of the pyramids, of course they have variations in shapes, sizes, materials, construction methods and etc. That's what you would expect from the re-construction of numerous pyramid-like structures over a long period of time. They would adjust and alter the pyramids accordingly to benefit their wants, needs, resources and other contributing factors, perhaps you prefer, the term "experimenting"?. The fact that they have changed accordingly throughout time, does not give you enough evidence or reason, for you to draw the conclusion that they must have been built, designed and constructed by a different group of people entirely, makes no logical sense. :blink:

The evolution of the pyramid in a short and simplistic manner...

-Prehistoric pit graves

-Mastaba's

-Step Pyramids

-Meidum Pyramids

-Bent Pyramids

-The Great Pyramids (Giza)

and the

-New Kingdom Pyramids (most commonly found in Nubia)

For more on this, visit -----> http://www.bbc.co.uk...d_gallery.shtml

and for furthermore information about who and when, built certain pyramids, visit ------------> http://en.wikipedia....yptian_pyramids :tu:

I don't feel that after acheiving the level and scale of the Great Pyramids,,,, the art of pyramid building would have declined so much in a small period of time.Most of the other pyramids are a pile of rubble and way smaller is scale.

If the great pyramid was actually built by the same AE, and if you plot a graph comparing it with other so called contemporary pyramids.... you would see a huge spike and then a steep slope downwards...doesn't fit in with gradual evolution theory. As it would need to be a gradual downfall as well, it is difficult to imagine that if the great Pyramids were built by Khufu and his sons, no other contemporary structure of similar scale and quality was built immediately before or after him and his son.

What happened to the worker gangs who built the Great pyramids if it was built by them.

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http://www.davidpbil...et/sphinx3.html

Water errosion marks on the Sphinx. Is it really prehistoric?

There are clealry visible rain errosion marks on the sphinx which is very telling. These marks indicate that the sphinx was built way before when Giza still had torrential rainfall. Many suggest that the Head of the sphinx which is dispropoartinate to the body was recarved by some egyptian Pharoan. It was originally thought to be an actual Lion Head and a monument to the constellation Leo. But astroligical implications apart, the possibility of the Sphinx and the Great Pyramids being contemporary is very high. Hence the Great Pyramids may be as old as the Sphinx i.e a time when Giza still had torrential rainfalls.

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I don't feel that after acheiving the level and scale of the Great Pyramids,,,, the art of pyramid building would have declined so much in a small period of time.Most of the other pyramids are a pile of rubble and way smaller is scale.

If the great pyramid was actually built by the same AE, and if you plot a graph comparing it with other so called contemporary pyramids.... you would see a huge spike and then a steep slope downwards...doesn't fit in with gradual evolution theory. As it would need to be a gradual downfall as well, it is difficult to imagine that if the great Pyramids were built by Khufu and his sons, no other contemporary structure of similar scale and quality was built immediately before or after him and his son.

What happened to the worker gangs who built the Great pyramids if it was built by them.

Larger is not necessarily better, perhaps the Egyptian's realized this... :rolleyes:

There could be a number of contributing factors as to why the pyramids, became of smaller scale, during apparently, a small period of time... e.g. Perhaps the pharaoh's did not find it necessary to build a pyramid of equal or larger comparison? or they did not have an efficient amount of resources to do so? or the pharaoh's did not live long enough to see such a project carried out (which appears evident)? or just simply they did not want to make a pyramid of such grand scale? All of which, what you have said, still does not proof that they were built by anyone other, than the Egyptians themselves...

As for the Sphinx... what does that have to do with the subject topic 'Great Pyramids vs. Egyptian Pyramids'?

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Larger is not necessarily better, perhaps the Egyptian's realized this... :rolleyes:

There could be a number of contributing factors as to why the pyramids, became of smaller scale, during apparently, a small period of time... e.g. Perhaps the pharaoh's did not find it necessary to build a pyramid of equal or larger comparison? or they did not have an efficient amount of resources to do so? or the pharaoh's did not live long enough to see such a project carried out (which appears evident)? or just simply they did not want to make a pyramid of such grand scale? All of which, what you have said, still does not proof that they were built by anyone other, than the Egyptians themselves...

As for the Sphinx... what does that have to do with the subject topic 'Great Pyramids vs. Egyptian Pyramids'?

All of what you have said doesn't prove that the AE responsible for building other smaller pyramids have also built the Great Pyramids. But that aside,scale and knowledge and capability of how to reach that scale is very important. It could not have been found over a generation and then lost over one more.

Why would other contemporary Pharoans, not want an equally big tomb for themselves? Not having sufficient resources is not a very logical premise as then you would have to assume that Khufu or whoever built the Great Pyramids magically produced such resources which his immediate ancestor couldn't and neither could the kings who followed his son Menkara.

But i feel that Khufu could have captured these ancient pyramids and brandished his name on them. The manipulations on the Sphinx head can aslo be linked to a similar venture.

Accumalating man power and putting into place organisation and arranging for the resources to build the great pyramid would have been a tougher task then building it.It would have been a long drawn and tideous proccess which would have left more signs.

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Posted (edited)

So we are to assume that the Great Pyramids of Giza were built and designed by a different group of people entirely, on the basis that the pyramids built afterward were of lesser scale and quality, than their predecessors? and what alternative group of people do you suggest had built these pyramids, if they were not Egyptian?

Why would other contemporary Pharoans, not want an equally big tomb for themselves? Not having sufficient resources is not a very logical premise as then you would have to assume that Khufu or whoever built the Great Pyramids magically produced such resources which his immediate ancestor couldn't and neither could the kings who followed his son Menkara.

Why would other Pharaohs want to have an equally big tomb for themselves? (other than being egotistic, if that were the case at all). Looting became an increasing problem in Egypt, and remained problematic throughout Egyptian history, having a pyramid of the enormity of that of Khufu, is basically screaming "Hey look at me, I'm ready to be looted"! :clap: ...

I must admit 'lack of resources' is a moot point on my behalf, though the rest I have mentioned above, I stand by...

Edited by Nefer-Ankhe

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Posted (edited)

So we are to assume that the Great Pyramids of Giza were built and designed by a different group of people entirely, on the basis that the pyramids built afterward were of lesser scale and quality, than their predecessors? and what alternative group of people do you suggest had built these pyramids, if they were not Egyptian?

Why would other Pharaohs want to have an equally big tomb for themselves? (other than being egotistic, if that were the case at all). Looting became an increasing problem in Egypt, and remained problematic throughout Egyptian history, having a pyramid of the enormity of that of Khufu, is basically screaming "Hey look at me, I'm ready to be looted"! :clap: ...

I must admit 'lack of resources' is a moot point on my behalf, though the rest I have mentioned above, I stand by...

I dont know which people built the great pyramids and i am dying to find out.

Not only the great pyramids, also the underwater city in the gulf of Cambay, Gobekli Tepe, The Mountain Cities in South America and a lot of other structures.

http://www.grahamhan...aryanB1.php?p=1

Pharoans were considered to be living Gods, so if one pharaon could make the Great Pyramids, it would be an easy step for the others to do the same. I don't think any Pharoan would be really scared of being robbed personally, there was a chance of war or assassination but i don't think he would take such decissions based on the fear of being robbed. :yes:

In my opinion there was a global civilization/s that knew each other and also traded and communicated with each other before the last Ice Age ended.It is maybe the Egyptians of those times who built the Great Pyramids. (It is not a completely verified opinion but my logic leads me to believe so).

Edited by Harsh86_Patel

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Posted (edited)

Not only the great pyramids, also the underwater city in the gulf of Cambay, Gobekli Tepe, The Mountain Cities in South America and a lot of other structures

In my opinion there was a global civilization/s that knew each other and also traded and communicated with each other before the last Ice Age ended

Well that all sounds very hopeful and optimistic, and I'm not the one to doubt optimism, but to substantiate such a theory, you must supply logical and evidential evidence, something of which you are lacking...

Pharoans were considered to be living Gods, so if one pharaon could make the Great Pyramids, it would be an easy step for the others to do the same.

I know exactly what the pharaohs were considered as, and to add to my bountiful knowledge, I know exactly how to spell *Pharaoh*. :yes:

As for the rest you have written, it has sincerely bewildered me aka :unsure2:

I don't think any Pharoan would be really scared of being robbed personally, there was a chance of war or assassination but i don't think he would take such decissions based on the fear of being robbed. :yes:

On the contrary, I would love to see some persuasive evidence...

Edited by Nefer-Ankhe

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Posted (edited)

Another example of a large structure from approximately the same age of the Great Pyramid that is unique. Stonehenge, though built in phases, is clearly the evolutionary end product of a long succesion of smaller henges. We have evidence of wooden henges, and the actual remains of various, circles and henges containing standing stones. We see the evolution, then we see Stonehenge, unique and nothing else like it built since. Yet nobody doubts it was built by the same cultural group of people, nobody, that I ever heard, suggests Stonehenge was built by some aliens or a long lost "hi-tech" civilisation. And of course, just like the Great pyramid, and all the others, Stonehenge is a place of the dead, and this has been proved to a great extent by very thorough recent excavations at the site. The hippies gathering there at the summer solstice and all being happy, should actually be there at the winter solstice and be sad thinking about departed loved ones. Same as "Atenists" holding ceremonies at Great Pyramid 523a0b22a66a.gif

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri
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Except of course the pyramids were of a more complex and grand scale, design. :P

Demonstrating of course which civilization was more advance and intellectual, at that certain time period.

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