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Avatar Samantha Ai

Croatians attempt to supress minority rights

106 posts in this topic

Victims of Greater Serbian aggression do associate Cyrillic with said aggression, it has to be noted and respected, but we must not allow further loss of our own culture or further real-life trolling.

Language ans script is living thing. It evolves.

I think that we evolve from Cyrillic once for all. Thanks to Serbs and their hegemony.

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It seems to me Croatians moan a lot at Miloevic but in truth he was a great leader.

After this I dicided that you will be ignored for rest of this debate. Due your sympathy for mass murder.

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My understanding of the situation is that during WW2 Croatians put on Nazi uniforms and went and genocided Serbs. Then the international community tried to restore peace to the Balklands by creating Yugoslavia. The Croatians rebelled in 1991 starting yet another conflict in the region. Serbia, angry at the genocide and rebellion, then got its revenge by killing Croatians.

It seems to me Croatians moan a lot at Miloevic but in truth he was a great leader. He didnt take any nonsense of them and sent his forces in to kick butt. It always seems to be Croatia starting wars and killing other people. We find them at it again now with trying to surpress minority rights.

Well, it’s very simplified and wrong.

First, you don’t know about Croatian anti-fascist. Every village in this area has a small monument with names of anti-fascists killed in WWII and in this context I must mention they were all Croats.

Genocided Serbs were very efficient genociders themselves, and quislings too.

Then, by the end of WWII, the British politicians insisted Yugoslavia is restored, because the first Yugoslavia was formed after WWI, in accordance to their needs (or what they perceived as their needs) to disperse Central Europe and seal a part of it into Eastern sphere of influence.

The same politicians insisted Serbs are kept as the ruling nation in the next Yugoslavia (first Yugoslavia had fake Karađorđević dynasty, invented by the British) and to achieve their dominance, the myths of their anti-fascism (that appeared no sooner than 1943) and genocidal nature of others was pushed in bizarrely violent fashion. But the communist rule was famous for bizarrely violent methods, it wasn’t exclusively Serbian fault.

After five decades of oppression, and after Milošević started openly turning ex-Yu into Greater Serbia, after he held rallies at which extremist chetniks were threatening non-Serbs with extermination, and after Serbian paramilitary started killing Croats, the war broke out.

Milošević was not a great leader. He was great psychopath and great coward who hated his own nation too, sending young Serbs to die for his megalomaniac phantasies.

He destroyed his own Serbia by pushing it into war they couldn’t win. Wars are not won by mythomania.

His forces probably wanted to kick butt, but I can tell you that since they had whole JNA resources at disposal (and commies were obsessed with accumulating weapons and goods) my grandma could kick more butt than they did, before their aggressor butt was kicked and kicked out of independent countries that used to form ex-Yugoslavia before Serbian egotripping made everyone else lose their patience. Not only Croats, not even Montenegrins wanted to stay with Serbia anymore in the end.

It would be nice if you’d research the topic if you are genuinely interested.

Or you can stick to “Croatia starting wars and killing people”. Fine. Don’t let facts get into your way. Stick to myth. Check under bed for Croats for all I care.

Who are “we”? Who finds me at it again? Did you even read my (lengthy but I hope comprehensible) posts?

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Posted (edited)

Language ans script is living thing. It evolves.

I think that we evolve from Cyrillic once for all. Thanks to Serbs and their hegemony.

True, they evolve.

And even before Serbian hegemony, Latin script predominated in Croatian language. That is very certain and we have nothing to worry about that.

The timing and our balanced reactions must come from careful consideration of the situation and must be on the level expected from civilized people.

We are out and above Balkanska krčma.

Edited by Helen of Annoy

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1. First, you don’t know about Croatian anti-fascists. Every village in this area has a small monument with names of anti-fascists killed in WWII and in this context I must mention they were all Croats.

2. The myths of their anti-fascism and genocidal nature of others was pushed in bizarrely violent fashion. But the communist rule was famous for bizarrely violent methods, it wasn’t exclusively Serbian fault.

3. After five decades of oppression, and after Milošević started openly turning ex-Yu into Greater Serbia, after he held rallies at which extremist chetniks were threatening non-Serbs with extermination, and after Serbian paramilitary started killing Croats, the war broke out.

1. I have no doubt some were against fascism and got killed for their resistance. However we both know the resistors were just a small percentage of the Croatian population.

2. The Serbs werent Nazis the Croatians were. Ustase is real, it happened, you know it happened and you're probably aware of your grandad playing his part in it. The reason why everyone knows about it isnt because it was 'pushed in bizarely violent fashion' its because genociding people is absolutely disgusting.

3. Do you think that would have still occured if Croatians hadnt genocided 100,000's of Serbs during WW2?

Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia need to learn that if you treat others well they treat you well. If you murder a load of them then when they become strong they come back and murder a load of you. Something tells me your people wont learn and give it 50 years we'll be back to the same problems in the Balklands.

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Posted (edited)

Hitler might have had that sentiment but you have not acknowledged the sentiment of the Croatians who were actually part of the campaign, some are smiling in pictures, others received medals after the war, and they consider their efforts there as heroic and valiant. They were willing.

Accusations of bait and switch are better reserved for those whose history in Croatia is self-admittedly "shabby" (your claim.)

I haven’t? Oh, that was reply to Asteroid's quote... never mind, here’s to that too:

All right, let me fix that: many Croats were thrilled with the WWII and the chance to take part in it on the side they thought is right. I cleared it out for you that their motive wasn’t anti-Semitism but patriotism and right-wing political beliefs.

Lefties were mass murderers too, probably because wars tend to be messy on all sides. Lots of dead folks and stuff. Yes, I am mocking you.

What you deliberately oversee is that many Croats took part on the other side and you apparently have no clue what wars looked like over here. Most people didn’t even choose what army will collect them, dress them up and use them as cannon fodder.

I’m under impression that you think people had Internet back in the 1940s, freedom of choice and whatnot.

Kako si, Helen.

Nikad bolje, susjede. Nadam se da si i ti dobro i da ti izgubljeni osvajački rat nije uništio samopouzdanje.

I was not there, I know and have talked to people, face to face, in person, who participated in the conflict. I am also able to find other sources in addition to form my own opinion, a valid opinion, one similar to and shared to many others who were also there, and you yourself most likely have opinions on matters and places that you have only a tenuous connection to at best. Mine is based on a bit more in this instance, but thank you for your concern. It is no minor matter in my mind, then or now.

More importantly is that I grew up seeing the pictures of what the Ustasha and their Nazi friends did to Serbians. I saw the graves, I saw the bodies, and I will never forget them.

And even more important than that is I know you have seen more than pictures and have reasons for your view, I won't agree with your view, I favor healing and reconciliation, but I understand your view which is based on your experiences.

But this is not just about me or you, many have seen what you have and disagree with your view, true some are from the other side that you claim but your view is one narrative, as is theirs. This is about democracy and equal rights for minorities.

Where were you when Serbian operated artillery was pulverizing my home town, when my eardrums were bursting, when the impact of explosion tossed me to the ground and I was thinking: “Please, god, make me die, don’t make me wake up with legs ripped off.”

Where were you when ****** with sniper was trying to get me, and I was 20 years old unarmed girl and good looking too? Can you imagine that sort of mind? He could see my face through ocular, damn b******, and I did not look like Ante Pavelić so you both can stick your WWII mythomania you know where.

Where were you when I was protecting 3-year old child from shrapnel with my own body?

Where were you then, hypocrite?

Too bad you didn’t see people being killed by psychopaths instead.

Or, to adapt to your compartmentalized worldview: too bad you didn’t saw pictures of chetnik crimes and what they did to civilians or captured anti-fascists.

No, this is not about just you and me, this is also about wars your nation keep losing.

You play the role well but times are changing, progress is visiting, and minority rights will be respected, even if a brutish bunch wants to stop democracy and rights for others and reserve the latter only for themselves.

Wanna bet?

And I suppose you accuse Simon Wiesenthal of lying too? His words were quoted in the OP.

Efraim Zuroff is the, "chief Nazi-hunter of the Simon Wiesenthal Center and director of its Israel Office," and the following article is in his words, from last year...

http://www.wiesentha...65#.UXeiasrJJ_M

Is Efraim Zuroff lying or is someone else simply not admitting the truth so they can continue hating, celebrating their fascist history, and supressing minorties, and all that in our current era, not some shady past?

I suppose you accuse state of Israel for honouring 102 people with Righteous Among Nations title by mistake?

Could you post Ephaim’s opinion on Banjica, near Belgrade, in Serbia?

Could you tell me what happened to Serbian Jews?

The only shame is when one would deny that most Croatians were on Hitler's side. The few who were not were brave and deserve recognition but what they do not deserve is to have their sacrifices minimized by pretending what they were up against did not exist: all butchers must come to terms with their pasts, all who support them must also come to terms, this applies to Croatian and Serb alike.

Evading much?

No Croat would deny Ustashe were Nazis. Some believe it was right, some believe it was wrong. How about you form some form of Inquisition and investigate which one believes what?

The ones who wore fascist insignia will be blackened. The only question remains is why do Croats now, today, not all but many, wish to honor that?

They died convinced they are dying for their country, of course you have to honour that.

Just because they chose the side that has lost doesn’t make them devils, just like choosing the later winning side doesn’t make all commies saints, you know.

I don’t blame Serbs for honouring their chetniks, I blame them for attacking my country and trying to kill me. Unarmed, civilian, not nationalist at all. I had no nationalist bone in my body before the war. Now I’m nationalist to the bone.

Congratulations.

No one is denying Serb actions in the Balkan wars but no one should try to diminish the fact that Croats played their own part.

Banjica was ran by Serbian State Guard, they were Nazi sympathizers, but the majority of Serbs opposed Nazis and were the victims of them and Croats.

On the other hand the majority of Croats sides with Nazis. The majority remain silent even today.

You’re lying again.

Majority of Croats were on the left, partisan side. All Ustashe were exterminated after the war and still the majority of Croats survived. Do your math.

And... silent? Silent?

I strike you as silent person? Really?

I see no proof of your first claim here but undoubtedly we both most likely share similar sentiments over the latter.

You’ll have to trust me then.

Just like you trust Serbian myths. No proof, no proof... and then the greater Serbia goes poof.

Chetniks fought Nazis. Ustasha helped Nazis.

:lol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chetniks

Bolded part is quoted from Wiki:

During World War II, the Chetniks were an anti-Axis movement in their long-range goals and engaged in marginal resistance activities for limited periods,[4] but also carried out almost throughout the war a tactical or selectivecollaboration with the occupation.[5] The Chetnik movement[6] adopted a policy of collaboration[7] with regard to the Axis Powers, and engaged in cooperation to one degree or another by establishing modus vivendi or operating as "legalised" auxiliary forces under Axis control.[8][9][10][11] Over a period of time, and in different parts of the country, the Chetnik movement was progressively[12] drawn into collaboration agreements: first with theNedić forces in the Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia,[13] then with the Italians in occupied Dalmatiaand Montenegro, with some of the Ustaše forces in northern Bosnia, and after the Italian capitulation also with theGermans directly.[14]

The Chetniks collaborated extensively and systematically with the Italian occupation forces until the Italian capitulation in September 1943, and beginning in 1944, portions of the Chetnik movement of Draža Mihailović collaborated openly with the Germans and Ustaša forces in Serbia and Croatia."[7]

The Chetniks were a partner in the pattern of terror and counter terror that developed in Yugoslavia during World War II. The Chetniks used terror tactics against the Croats in areas where Serbs and Croats were intermixed, against the Muslim population in Bosnia, Herzegovina and Sandžak, and against the Yugoslav Partisans and their supporters in all areas. These terror tactics took various forms, including killing of the civilian population, burning of villages, assassinations and destruction of property. The terror tactics used by the Chetniks against the Croats was largely a reaction against the mass terror perpetrated by the Ustaše, and the terror against the Partisans and their supporters was ideologically-driven. The Muslim population of Bosnia, Herzegovina and Sandžak was a primary target of Chetnik terror due to the traditional animosity between Serbs and Muslims, but this action was also undertaken to 'cleanse' these areas of Muslims in order to create a 'Greater Serbia' free of non-Serbs.[16]

Several modern Serbian paramilitary organizations, formed in the 1990s after the breakup of Yugoslavia, chose the name "Chetniks", and consider themselves to be the continuation of the Chetnik legacy. There are also numerous Serbian civilian organisations at home and in the diaspora that drawn upon the history of the Chetnik movement.

Your view is severely distored. No one is "suddenly insisting". Minority rights are within both the Croatian constitution and the European Union laws. Democracy and equal rights is not a political stunt but to those who hate one or the either or both would claim it so.

No, it’s your view that you are called to preach minority rights to me that is severely distorted. Not to use the right word, since UM doesn’t allow medical advice.

Serbs have their minority rights in Croatia guaranteed by Croatian Constitution. We don’t need your highness over our Constitution.

To my fellow Americans, if for some reason you happen to be reading, imagine the quote above revised to the following:

I know many African-Americans, some of them are my friends, and not one of them sits in the front of the bus or has a problem with staying in the back. Many African-Americans in the South are more comfortable with the back of the bus, because of ever growing influence of not wanting to rock the boat, which doesn’t really work anyways because we all like how things are now and they don't really need to change.

Helen, no, just no.

No, Helen, what?

No, Helen, don’t think I just built the saddest straw man in history of Internet?

Or you seriously believe Serbs ride in the back of Croatian buses?

Knowing both Serbs and Croats, Serbs would turn the bus over and set it ablaze and Croats would applaud.

Probably we’d arrange a fight later, laugh at you for not taking part in it, being all sensitive and all, but the idea of discrimination of such moronic proportions would unite us for a while.

The only agenda is disgust at suppression of minority rights in this world.

No, it’s not.

Be a man and speak frankly.

What?

My poem, entitled "Nato, please intervene" was written to commemorate the second annivesary of Nato intervention in Libya, something I supported, but also written after feeling disgusted and sick (I know I should probably be as macho and tough as you but I was not made that way) at what is going on in Syria. I put myself in Syrian shoes and it is a prayer for Nato intervention there.

You completely misunderstood that piece.

It is true I am critical of how Western peacekeepers stood back and did nothing as Croats ethnically cleansed Serbs from the Krajina but I am a huge fan of nuance and my criticism there does not extend to other peacekeeping operations.

I am sorry if you didn't like that poem, not many did as only you commented, thanks, but I don't think you understood it at all.

Ew.

I understood it right. I also just understood what type of person you are. Ew. Ew. Ew.

Keep harping on about endangered Serbs and Nazi Croats to make your point more believable.

Edited by Helen of Annoy
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Saru, why is UM so slow when I have something interesting to post?

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Due to the quote limit this had to broken up into another post.

My problem is suppression of minority rights. Chauvinism does not belong in my court.

Your suspicion that my reason for posting could be anything else than what is it only proves you do not care about suppression of minority rights. I see no proof you do, you have not advocated for them, you portray democracy and minority rights as a "political stunt" instead.

You initially assume much in your first paragraph.

The ultra-fascist singer Thompson who glorifies the Ustasha, Thompson who sang at the protest against Cyrllic earlier this month, also brings up WWII but in a way to praise the fascist ancestors of his, as do his fans, look them up, some very young, they wear the fascist symbols to go to his concerts, but in all honesty the situation today has much to do with WWII.

If this is a non-issue to you I understand, it isn't to me, I am familiar with the region, its inhabitants, and my position is not based or swayed or informed solely through one person I am friendly with on a forum.

This might be your reason to label democracy and minority rights as simply provoking, "a reaction with this sign BS," but at least Helen has her own reasons based in something a lot deeper for her opinion.

Ah, so now you’ll pick the music too for Croats so they don’t turn into Ustashe?

How about you pick the music for your own Serbs so they finally stop hollering about “Nož, žica, Srebrenica” or “Bit će mesa, klat ćemo Hrvate”?

Their choice of music might make me genocidal, you know.

You are a perfect example of the mindset that broke ex-Yu down.

Working it out by showing up to protest against minority rights while dressed up in intimidating militia outfits?

Thank god they left weapons at home or they’d look truly intimidating to anyone who wants to intimidate us.

And it's not militia, milicija is what you have over there in Serbia, these are Croatian army uniforms from the Homeland war.

We can discuss the issues, maybe you don't want to, maybe you just want to tell me your narrative without listening to mine? Labelling my concerns for this region, yes your region, as trolling, is simply innaccurate and I have yet to say anything about you in such a manner. That is ad hominem and won't work in minimizing the seriousness of this issue in Vukovar.

I take trolling accusation back, now when it’s clear you’re Serb.

It’s very saddening to see you are ashamed of your heritage. What Nikola Tesla said, what Tesla said, son.

Correct the Croatian constituon calls for these minority rights to be honored. Correct that ethnic-Italian minority has these same rights.

It is those who hate and have no love for the rule of law who are at issue here. The Croatian government and the EU still have to answer to the charge of allowing fascism to resurface. It needs to be stamped out. We all know the history going back the Battle of Kosovo in 1389. We all know how Serbs have always been attacked and controlled by greater powers, time and again, Turks, Holy Roman Empire, Ottomon empire, Austro-Hungary, Nazi Germany, and even the UN, but in the end they always regain their freedom. (Yes, I know some of those are the same players with different names).

Of course it’s correct.

Just as my diagnosis of your need to hide your nationality is correct. I wonder what made you ashamed of your own nation?

Your continual distortion of democracy and equal rights completely solidifies your true view.

In the amplitudal disproportion of exothermal emotional reaction I declare this man a wife. :lol:

No need for conspiracy theories. Allowing minority rights and the use of their language on signs is simply in your constitution and part of the terms of conditions of joining the EU and following their charters.

Aunty Helen, I know you have a good heart in other matters, I know you don't agree with me in this matter, peace to you, you lovely woman, I only wish I had your strengths, I do not wish to sacrifice my sensitivies and who I really am just to make things easier for me, but if I was as strong as you maybe the world would be easier for me, but most of all I wish you peace to your heart, for all you have seen and experienced, but just for being a fellow human being, and I hope you wish me the same. Be good, visit me more often (in writers and artists section).

You have the strength, nephew, and the heritage you should be proud of. You were just blinded with the myths that came from the fear of the others.

I am the other, but I am just like you. Don’t be ashamed of your nation. Be a Serb, but let the chetnikovanje go. It’s time for the dead to rest in peace.

I also know when you make quick notes, you do that in Latin. The only time you use Cyrillic is when you bury your dead and put Cyrillic inscriptions on their tombstones.

That is not Croatian fault, that is the world using more Latin at the moment.

Learn Cyrillic, bury grandpa with Cyrillic inscription, be a Serb. But you don’t need to bury Croats in order to be a Serb. It’s a myth. We are not out to get you. We are in the same **** as you are. Work with us instead of against us.

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All right, I can hardly post, the UM keeps loading über-slow.

1. I have no doubt some were against fascism and got killed for their resistance. However we both know the resistors were just a small percentage of the

Croatian population.

Oh, hi, I didn't recognize you, you used to post under different name... was it Mr. Right Wing? ... but now I see your habit of breaking posts into numbered parts and repeating the same "tit-for-tat" (offensive) theory is still here.

So, no, we both do not know that. In fact, I know it was the greater percentage of the Croatian population that was totally confused and ****ed by both Nazis first then commies next, with approximately a little over the half being more inclined to the left, not because they knew what the hell is going on, but because left sounded better – before it showed its true face.

2. The Serbs werent Nazis the Croatians were. Ustase is real, it happened, you know it happened and you're probably aware of your grandad playing his part in it. The reason why everyone knows about it isnt because it was 'pushed in bizarely violent fashion' its because genociding people is absolutely disgusting.

Explore Wikipedia links and read my posts before you reply to them. My grandparents were partisans, that means they were anti-fascist.

Other than that, genocide is disgusting. More than ignorance. But it was digusting in India, Srebrenica or Banjica. The intensity of disgust does not depend on ethnicity of the victims - at least that's how it works for us, the sane people.

3. Do you think that would have still occured if Croatians hadnt genocided 100,000's of Serbs during WW2?

Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia need to learn that if you treat others well they treat you well. If you murder a load of them then when they become strong they come back and murder a load of you. Something tells me your people wont learn and give it 50 years we'll be back to the same problems in the Balklands.

It would, but if Serbs didn’t genocide 100,000 of Croats, starting with 1918, continuing to 1995, maybe we could fight their fascistoid expansionism more efficiently.

You don’t have problems in Balkans, it’s Balkans, not Balklands, except you maybe invested something in Serbia.

Croatia is not Balkan, it’s Central Europe. Or Mitteleuropa as my grandmother used to say.

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Posted (edited)

Point here is that in communicology letters represent symbols. Try walk with swastika symbol in Tel Aviv.

Or with Davids star in Egypt or Syria. Or with white KKK hood in Staten Island or Bronx.

Edited by the L

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Point here is that in communicology letters represent symbols. Try walk with swastika symbol in Tel Aviv.

Or with Davids star in Egypt or Syria. Or with white KKK hood in Staten Island or Bronx.

You’re not helping, L.

Or, you’re helping the “endangered” Serbian side, in case you haven’t noticed, with your fear of Cyrillic.

The veterans expressed their opinion, the government said the Constitution guarantees minority rights, the timing which is the only issue here will be determined by people with the brains.

Behave, keep the interests of your country in mind or I’ll get angry.

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Posted (edited)

You dont quite understand term "communications" Helen. Nevertheless, your conversation partners who sit on another side of table knows even less.

Best communication between two people is when one recive exact same image as first send him.

Symbols play key roles. Ever wonder why when one person who study lets say Japanese we say he/she study Japanology?

Because to understand language you need to understand their minds. Culture, traditions, letters, sub cultures, trends, religion, history.

Script is just tool for communication. Now if one symbol awake negative thoughts, communication will suffer. And thats minor thing that might happened.

Put KKK costume and walk in front this guys.

[media=]

[/media]

If you dont belive in power of symbols Im sure that would awake you up.

Some things are not welcome in some places.PERIOD.

Edited by the L

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Constitution guarantees minority rights,

Every person who live in Croatia must respect our Constitution.

And it cleary said CAN not MUST allow other scripts.

And every minority have they rights.

Im sure Serbs would get their Cyrillic when we lick our wounds. Rightnow...Its just puting oil on fire.

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L, I hope you understand how damaging is your theory about Cyrillic that has turned evil just because it was used by the aggressor.

Any aggressor used some script.

Clearly there are traumatised people who do not want to see Cyrillic ever again, and I was clear about the need to recognize their feelings more than once.

I was also crystal clear about the gravely important need that my and your country, Croatia, keeps strict balance in sensitive matters such as minority rights.

So could you come back to your senses and keep hilariously unrelated musical videos out of here?

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I have serious problems with pages loading, I hope it will go away by tomorrow.

So I don't have to wait for half an hour to report possible spamming, trolling, juvenile flaming and other phenomena. But I will wait whole night long if necessary.

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Posted (edited)

So could you come back to your senses and keep hilariously unrelated musical videos out of here?

That you understand communication you wouldnt called it unrelated.

Helen whole discussion is wrong on so many different levels.

1st and most important, in our constitution no where is written that minority MUST get their script.

If anyone dont like our laws, you are free to go. But if you decide to stay you must obey our Constitution. Simply.

Helping or not, maybe you didnt notice so far, we live in Democracy. I have freedom of speech aswell.

I have right to say my opinion. If some UM-Serbs can support mass murders such as Slobo so can I say my stance.

Cyrillic is symbol of hatred for some people in Croatia. Serbs must think about it when they bomb our cities because it our Goverment good will to decide would Serbs would get their script or not.

I hope not.

And if you dont know what symbol means I could give you some hints.

I dont fear Cyrillic. I dont fear Swastika. Just dont think they fit into Croatian cities.

Did you know that Swiss have rule against building Islam temples in Persian styles or Budhist temple in far east style?

If you want temple you can have one. Just first must fit into Urban planing.

You can have your temple but you must built it in style that dont stands out from rest of Swiss architecture.

Personally Cyrillic remind me on slaughter. Cannon fire, concentration camps, land mines, snipers,raping...

Sorry if that hurts someone but just thats how I feel.

I cant change fact what Cyrillic symbolize to me.

Its picture in my mind same as Swastika remind me on Nazists.

Maybe when they invent Amnesia pills that will change.

And if I have chance to vote yes or no for Cyrillic, I would vote big NO. And even become activists and spread the word.

Im very conservative about this due war with Cyrillic users.

But again point is that if decide to not allow Cyrillic we will not do against our Constitution.

So tell me Helen one reason why would we show good will and let them have it?

They deserve it? Think twice.

Or because Serbs who live in Croatia use world media to painted Croatia black?

What a patriots. We need to show good will to them.

This is information war. This thread included.

Sadly for those patriots, they first must find lawyer among themselves who understand their homeland Constitution.

Edited by the L

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Posted (edited)

I wonder does any country have majority rights? :w00t:

So I will be first here to tell you Britney, ...Cyrilic in Croatia? Not going to happened. :st

Edited by the L

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Posted (edited)

And by doing it we dont break any law.

So...sue us! We did sue you for war compensation. And we will going to win that. :passifier:

Edited by the L

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Good morning.

I just want to comment on the L's new choice for an avatar.

Any Croatian would know that the image of Ante Gotovina will be controversial at a minimum and quite inciteful to the degree of bringing up painful thoughts. :/

The equivalent would be changing my avatar to Arkan or to Serb Volunteer Guard insignia.

300,000 Serbs were ethnically cleansed from the Krajina overall. No one helped. The world stood by and watched. The West forgot who their allies were. Which is worse, ethnic cleansing by enemy or betrayal by old friends?

There is also a reason why Vukovar had roughly the same amount of Serbs and Croats before the war, and when all was said and done...well let us just say it took them this long just to exceed 33%.

Very hurtful avatar, it provokes, but that is your decision. I won't mention it again but I also have nothing more to say today.

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Good morning.

I just want to comment on the L's new choice for an avatar.

Any Croatian would know that the image of Ante Gotovina will be controversial at a minimum and quite inciteful to the degree of bringing up painful thoughts. :/

The equivalent would be changing my avatar to Arkan or to Serb Volunteer Guard insignia.

300,000 Serbs were ethnically cleansed from the Krajina overall. No one helped. The world stood by and watched. The West forgot who their allies were. Which is worse, ethnic cleansing by enemy or betrayal by old friends?

There is also a reason why Vukovar had roughly the same amount of Serbs and Croats before the war, and when all was said and done...well let us just say it took them this long just to exceed 33%.

Very hurtful avatar, it provokes, but that is your decision. I won't mention it again but I also have nothing more to say today.

Britney, you have disorted , twisted view on history. There is whole section of subforum here on UM. Its called Alternative History.

Gotovina =/= Arkan.

Ante is one greatest generals Europe seen. He did not do war crimes. Arkan did. Thats big difference.

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Posted (edited)

http://en.wikipedia....i/Ante_Gotovina

Never read just the first line of wiki folks.

Edited by Wearer of Hats
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Now allow me to explain to you dear UMers why he is General as Napoleon, Caesar, Gustavus Adolphus, Hannibal, Zhukov, Nader Shah , Patton...

It was longest military line after World War 2. It was 630 km of enemies line. To break such line depth of impact of army must have been 50 km.

So when operation Oluja started our special forces made 50 km impact behind enemy lines.

Before action Oluja we were secretly listen Milošević, main negative protagonist of all this mess. so we knew every next move ordered by this mad man.

With drones we takes photo of every inch of enemy lines. When operation started we knew where every theor tank was.

Our neighbours Bosnia and Herzegovinia, homeland of Odas allow Croatian special forces Tigers to made action Summer 95 or Ljeto 95 and in that action we capture peak "Šator" or Tent on english. That was strategic move first. And tactical.

Tactic is what is done on battlfield and strategy is what is done behind. Manouvers.

Our special forces of police were already on Velebit since 1993 and since 1994 HVor Croatian Army was on Dinara mountain.

Now all this time Croatia was under embargo so we must secretly and illegal to armed ourselves to defend from 3rd army in Europe. JNA-Yugoslavian Army with Serbian Chetniks.

Peter W. Galbraith propsed plan Z4 where he allow Serbs to have state inside of Croatia. Meaning that Croatia gave up on us territory.

Ofcourse we refused that and we demand AVNOJ borders. Then USA and Clinton gave us 10 days.

So stake was high. Either we get all in 10 days or loose all.

Operation Oluja should be 8 days before it happened but because of secret mobilization problems happened week later.

General Stipetić was on east in Đakovo securing east line. Croats also secured south line just in case Yugoslavia will attack either from Serbia or from Montenegro.

In 2 a.m. on August 4th 1995 action started.

All Serbian informative lines were blocked so their artilery was cut from thier infantry.

1000 special policemen on Velebit with 35 kg of equipment and ammunition and on 1600 meters above sea level came on high resistance. Bunkers.

Amnog special forces there was 12 complete teams of surgeons, anesthesiologists, nurses with big loads of blood for transfussion.

Because of heavy terrain all operation were done on scene.

General Norac with his Wolf brigade attacked from Lika and General Crnjac from Karlovac.

When you break enemy line you must have impact forces who would like spear break line. That line breakers in Croatian Army were Tigers.

Croatian Army have mission to melt with 5 Corpus of Army of Bosnia and Herzegovnia trough Kapela.

General Korade on 5.8. lead liberation of Croatian city Knin with his Pumas. Later 4th Brigade under Krstičević which are aka Spiders join Korade.

On first day of breaking lines we have difficulties in sector Petrinja. That was a result of changing plans in headquarters in Zagreb.

Now if you read carefully what I wrote you will remember that you must have something like spear forces which will break lines. In this area we loose sharpness and attack as parallel line. Parallel lines cant break other.

In 2nd. Brigade we have 18 deads with commander of battalion dead. 60 wounded. 8 elite special force soldiers were killed which is a lot for special forces. One special force soldiers counts as 11 normal. So it was like you loose 88 soldiers. Then General Stipetić overtakes command.

So four days after USA allow us to liberate our country , on August 08th 1995, Čedo Bulat sign capitulation on the car of Croatian police while General Stipetić smiled.

Many others are involved. Minister of defense Gojko Šušak,Admiral Domazet Lošo.

Croatia did information war before attacking Serbs.

192 000 people were involved in Operation Oluja.

We liberated 11 000 km2. We spent on daily basis 1200 tones of ammunition and 400 tones of fuel.

Now thats huge numbers.

Now where Gotovina in all this story. Well caporal chef have keyrole in all strategic actions. In taking peak Šator in Bosnia. In action Maslenica. In liberation of Knin. He was commander in melted army of HV and HVO in action Maestral. All hard work in Dalmatia and Hezegovinia was done by Ante. He led Croatian army which came 23 km of BanjaLuka where Serbs have 50 000 soldiers.

Then when Ante Gotovina was in fron of Banja Luka USA gave sign to Croatian goverment that we must stop with all action like they were surprised how much did we in 4 days.

Ante Gotivna was in that light responsible for Dayton agreement. He created terms for it with his tactics and strategical manuvers.

From 4 to 7 August 1995 , 124 croatian soldier died. 20 officers and 18 non-commissioned officers.

What does information tells you that our officers were in front lines. And everyone who was under Ante Gotovina said that he was always near front lines.

On other hand 575 Serb soldiers died and 1850 soldiers were wounded.

Operation is now studied in US Army with Cannae, Alesia and similar.

Its par excellence of modern warfare. and Gotovina played keyrole in it.

Okay Helena now I will keep my mouth closed. :innocent:

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Posted (edited)

Or as Israel generals said after this battlefield masterpiece.

"There is only three armies in the world capable for such maneuver. US army, Tzahal (Israel army) and Croatian army."

Im proud of Ante Gotovina. He is our George Washington in a sense. And he should be on our money too.

Edited by the L
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Posted (edited)

Having sat on sidelines I make this one proper contribution. I take no sides here, I simply point out that the full picture is not presented on this thread. So, I fill a few gaps.

Firstly. Why the involvement on the Croat side of the American organisation MPRI - Military Professional Resources Incorporated, led by an ex US General.

Secondly. This site fills some gaps better than me. http://emperors-clot...ch/krajina.html

Thirdly. What happens here? why is Croat General Cosic having a cosy chat with US General Clark in Washington in late 1994

2503765de94a.jpg

Fourthly. Simply some entertainment provided by the Kuban Cossacks (Descendents of the famous Zaporozhian Host. Was a film with the Ukranian Yul Brinner about them, Taras Bulba). Here they sing sentimental song about the the terrible plight of Serbs during WWI, nothing political, simply some entertainment in a harsh and unforgiving thread :)

And this for the hell of it. Also very good song and some good swords at the end :)

http://youtu.be/BkxYE-jVH8Q

And look below at my signature. Cyrillics! Oh! the devil appears! 031a07dfb2e6.gif75662a019fe7.gif

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri
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