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Jor-el

The Woman clothed with the Sun...

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This you don't get either...not trying to be offensive, actually I love you guys for your passion and the fact your faith is so strong!

But the sun is God

The sea is fallen mankind

The cloud: well that's what's formed when the sun hits the sea and that water is to a large extent purified into clouds.

Jesus coming on the clouds means; coming with purified mankind..the 144 000

And:

As Jesus said: Luke 17

So as lightning flashes from one part under heaven to the other part...so the son of man shal be

This lightning is the symbol of electricity, telecommunications ..yes we are in this very age.

And:

The parable of the fig tree?

When the tree begins to bear fruit he is at the very gates!

The fig tree is Isreal, the return of the Jewish people reformed Isreal.

And:

Be watchful?

Are you? Sounds like nobody wants to be a new wine skin ..yet this was the lords commandment!

And:

The dead will rise? The resurrection ?

Jesus said leave the dead to bury the dead, follow me!

Those who received Jesus did in fact receive spiritual resurrection.

Like I said, I love your devotion to God, this alone will save you, but if your not watchful as lord Jesus warned (except if for some cloud type miracle where the returning Lord flys around on a cloud saying "here I am!" ) you may miss this event. You may not be in the first resurrection just like those who didn't receive Our Lord Jesus.

This lord does not just come for Christians, or Jews, this Lord is coming for all religions! he will offer a new truth and teaching more advanced than Jesus , Jesus had to talk in parables because that's all those around him could understand, imagine if he tried to teach Eistiens theory or reletivity ? About gravity? Even how lightning is produced? These people of Jesus age were somewhat primitive, do we crucify people in this day and age? So this new guy will talk more plainly, prolbably more scientifically , and about real truths in the spirit world...with all the teaching from Jesus and other prophets do you understand the spirit world? No! if you think yes your kidding yourself..none of us knows what we don't know until we have learnt it! So this Adam will do as Jesus said, " when the spirit of truth comes he lead you all into the light" "Every eye will see him" (thanks to modern technology) yet he will be rejected and suffer much and yes only 144000 will receive him by all accounts. He will have Jesus supporting him though, just as John had Elijah but was not the actual Elijah...Jesus is a mission not a man.

This is a message of love to you no matter what religion you are, to remind you of what may be about to occure, weather you can receive is your choice..who I am to all this is irrelevant.

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Mary is the new Eve. I don't believe she was born without sin as the catholic church teaches, I'll be the first to admit that the catholic church has gone off the deep end when it comes to nearly all of their Mary stuff they teach... But the one thing they got right is the Queen of Heaven and New Eve. Which even protestants should be able to fathom her as the new Eve, it's not something you have to write into anything, she is the Mother of Chirst, she is the spiritual Mother of all those who are born again, just like all older women of the church are.....but because she was the one who carried and brought forth our Christ it makes her the new Eve since he is the New Adam. It's common sense people. It's not like the Catholic's church crazy teaching that Mary is the co-redemptrix or anything like that!

And all of Mary's apparitions over the Millenia attest to her being raptured into Heaven...

The reason that Jesus is called the 2nd Adam is because a metaphor was being applied. A comparison between to things, He is not literally the 2nd Adam, he is merely the figure that succeeded where Adam failed.

1 Corinthians 15:45-49

45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

As such we cannot extend the metaphor to include Mary. She is not a part of the metaphor and was merely a physical conduit for the completion of the prophetic message of Christ. Thus she is not the 2nd Eve, She is not the Queen of Heaven. I think she is horrified that so many christians over the years have turned her into something she never was nor was ever meant to be. I say is because she is alive in christ, just as all who die are alive in christ. There is no biblical evidence that she was any of the things that the Catholic Church today tries to portray with her image.

There is no evidence she was raptured to Heaven and biblically that does not jive with what we know. Mary's apparitions and especially her messages demonstrate the spirit behind the message and it isn't God. Her messages do not glorify God, or Christ. Her messages glorify herself... that in itself is proof that it is a lie or a fraud.

The Catholic church does not officially call her co-redemptrix, but in every other respect, treat her in exactly that way. They pray to her rather than christ, they sacrifice to her. It is her image they carry with them in their cars, on chains and lockets. When they need a miracle or a cure, it is to her they go to. I know, I live in Portugal. They neither remeber Christ or his words, they see him either as a baby on christmas eve or a man nailed to a cross at easter. Christ does not enter their lives.

Yes there are exceptions, but they are few and far between a multitude of others.

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Posted (edited)

Matthew 11:11-15

11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it. 13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. 15 Whoever has ears, let them hear.

So the answe is yes John the Baptist was the Elijah.... but he was not Elijah.

The Elijah.... to make ready a people prepared for the Lord

So doesn't that verse 11 trouble you or do people skim read?

THE LEAST IN HEAVEN

Is it possible something went wrong? That this prophet made some fatal error? I'm not bashing John, rather interested to know if anybody has a ear here.

Given that the Jews still await Elijah before they could accept the teachings of Jesus..even to this day! . Is it possible one made such a critical error that affected the other?

Is there anywhere else that Jesus says "So whoever hears this and does it...and ..."

But look at Luke7 concerning John first.

Now rember he is in prison at this time, has already been told " this is my son in whom I'm well pleased"

Yet still feels the need to ask if Jesus is the messiah. I'm not twisting anything here..

Jesus and John the Baptist

18 John’s disciples told him about all these things. Calling two of them, 19 he sent them to the Lord to ask, “Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?”

20 When the men came to Jesus, they said, “John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, ‘Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?’”

21 At that very time Jesus cured many who had diseases, sicknesses and evil spirits, and gave sight to many who were blind. 22 So he replied to the messengers, “Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy[a] are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor. 23 Blessed is anyone who does not stumble on account of me.”

24 After John’s messengers left, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed swayed by the wind? 25 If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear expensive clothes and indulge in luxury are in palaces. 26 But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 27 This is the one about whom it is written:

“‘I will send my messenger ahead of you,

who will prepare your way before you.’

28 I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”

Edited by Irrelevant
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Posted (edited)

This post is in reference to the least in heaven ..

Matthew 5:19

New King James Version (NKJV)

19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Did John make a mistake then?

Perhaps John was ment to follow Jesus? And do as he was ment to in "making his paths straight, and testifying to everybody Jesus was the messiah, since here now just before he's beheaded he still can't say he is Elijah, and is even questioning Jesus if he is the one or shall we expect another..perhaps there's a major problem!

Since Jesus being the messiah to the Jews required Elijah to come first, did John say he was not him? Did John in fact denie he was Elijah leaving Jesus to say who he was, causing a major credibility problem for Jesus? A problem that still exists to this day.

If you believe in predestination you may say this is all Gods plan, was it really? Don't humans have any responsibility too.

John1:21

And they said to him, What then? Are you Elijah? And he said, I am not. Are you the prophet? And his answer was, I am not.

This shows John had a identity problem, he didn't know himself the he was Elijah or even a prophet.

Edited by Irrelevant

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Matthew 11:11-15

11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it. 13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. 15 Whoever has ears, let them hear.

So the answe is yes John the Baptist was the Elijah.... but he was not Elijah.

The Elijah.... to make ready a people prepared for the Lord

Hi Jor-el,

I once thought of it as a reincarnation example, not just referring "to make ready a people prepared for the Lord" because the article "the" is a "definite" one [not generalized like "a" or "an"]. Could it be a scholarly mistranslation?

God bless.

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How would she be linked to the old pagan wisom schools, How do they identify her, what are the symbols surrounding her?

Through John who was a trained adept. Having never been trained in that way I tried to see the image from his perspective. They identify with Isis: the mother of the mysteries. They say it took about 40,000 years just to identify the basics of astrology...but this is all way beyond my pay grade so I'll quietly back out of this fairly awesome thread.

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Posted (edited)

This lord does not just come for Christians, or Jews, this Lord is coming for all religions! he will offer a new truth and teaching more advanced than Jesus , Jesus had to talk in parables because that's all those around him could understand, imagine if he tried to teach Eistiens theory or reletivity ? About gravity? Even how lightning is produced? These people of Jesus age were somewhat primitive, do we crucify people in this day and age? So this new guy will talk more plainly, prolbably more scientifically , and about real truths in the spirit world...with all the teaching from Jesus and other prophets do you understand the spirit world? No! if you think yes your kidding yourself..none of us knows what we don't know until we have learnt it! So this Adam will do as Jesus said, " when the spirit of truth comes he lead you all into the light" "Every eye will see him" (thanks to modern technology) yet he will be rejected and suffer much and yes only 144000 will receive him by all accounts. He will have Jesus supporting him though, just as John had Elijah but was not the actual Elijah...Jesus is a mission not a man.

This is a message of love to you no matter what religion you are, to remind you of what may be about to occure, weather you can receive is your choice..

I don't care if your a Jesuit or what you are, do you know that you are preaching a false gospel? You are preaching of a different Lord other than Jesus Christ.....you will go to hell! And if you ARE a Jesuit then you shall definatley go to hell for the stuff your saying, and no hell or purgatory will ever be enough to purge you of your sins....

You sound more like a jehova's witness with your only 144,000.00 stuff your talking about...

Mathew Chp 10:

34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Jesus isn't returning to offer love to "all religions", he's returning to pass judgement on all the false religions of the world! You will see....

So doesn't that verse 11 trouble you or do people skim read?

THE LEAST IN HEAVEN

Is it possible something went wrong? That this prophet made some fatal error? I'm not bashing John, rather interested to know if anybody has a ear here.

Given that the Jews still await Elijah before they could accept the teachings of Jesus..even to this day! . Is it possible one made such a critical error that affected the other?

Is there anywhere else that Jesus says "So whoever hears this and does it...and ..."

But look at Luke7 concerning John first.

Now rember he is in prison at this time, has already been told " this is my son in whom I'm well pleased"

Yet still feels the need to ask if Jesus is the messiah. I'm not twisting anything here..

Jesus and John the Baptist

18 John's disciples told him about all these things. Calling two of them, 19 he sent them to the Lord to ask, "Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?"

20 When the men came to Jesus, they said, "John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, 'Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?'"

21 At that very time Jesus cured many who had diseases, sicknesses and evil spirits, and gave sight to many who were blind. 22 So he replied to the messengers, "Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy[a] are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor. 23 Blessed is anyone who does not stumble on account of me."

24 After John's messengers left, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: "What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed swayed by the wind? 25 If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear expensive clothes and indulge in luxury are in palaces. 26 But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 27 This is the one about whom it is written:

"'I will send my messenger ahead of you,

who will prepare your way before you.'

28 I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

John simply wanted confirmation, since he was arrested he wasn't able to witness any of Jesus' miracles himself, he wanted word that Jesus's work had begun. Everyone questions and stumbles and wants confirmation from God, every prophet, disciple, Christian has question or faltered at some point during their life, even Moses did.

John was the Elijah... but the real Elijah will also come again probably as one of the two witnesses spoke of in Revelation. Elijah will probably return with Enoch, and they will convince many and lift the scales off the eyes of many jews who are blinded to the identity of Christ.

This post is in reference to the least in heaven ..

Matthew 5:19

New King James Version (NKJV)

19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Did John make a mistake then?

Perhaps John was ment to follow Jesus? And do as he was ment to in "making his paths straight, and testifying to everybody Jesus was the messiah, since here now just before he's beheaded he still can't say he is Elijah, and is even questioning Jesus if he is the one or shall we expect another..perhaps there's a major problem!

Since Jesus being the messiah to the Jews required Elijah to come first, did John say he was not him? Did John in fact denie he was Elijah leaving Jesus to say who he was, causing a major credibility problem for Jesus? A problem that still exists to this day.

If you believe in predestination you may say this is all Gods plan, was it really? Don't humans have any responsibility too.

John1:21

And they said to him, What then? Are you Elijah? And he said, I am not. Are you the prophet? And his answer was, I am not.

This shows John had a identity problem, he didn't know himself the he was Elijah or even a prophet.

The least Jesus spoke of is those who taught not to follow the least of God's commandments, this is a tricky piece of scripture to figure out, Jesus asserts that one must follow the law better then the scribes and Pharisees.... I think this might possibly tie into Paul's teaching in Romans that to the Jew first, and then the Gentile... And what did Paul do? He is the apostle who taught the converted Gentiles, NOT to follow all of God's Commandments.... and in one letter Paul calls himself the least of the Apostles...

1 Corinthians Chapter 15:

9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Yes he persecuted the church before conversion, but could he also be considered the least because he taught to abandon the laws of Moses?? In either case, as the Lord said, the first shall be last and the last shall be first...

Edited by MasterFlint
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So doesn't that verse 11 trouble you or do people skim read?

THE LEAST IN HEAVEN

Is it possible something went wrong? That this prophet made some fatal error? I'm not bashing John, rather interested to know if anybody has a ear here.

Given that the Jews still await Elijah before they could accept the teachings of Jesus..even to this day! . Is it possible one made such a critical error that affected the other?

Is there anywhere else that Jesus says "So whoever hears this and does it...and ..."

Why should the verse trouble me? I see nothing in that verse that should give me pause. Peoples expectations are the problem here, they expected Elijah to physically come and announce the coming of the Messiah, the problem is they did not understand the verse promising his return.

Malachi 4:5

5 “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes.

So will Elijah come, to announce the coming of the Messiah or is it rather as the verse states, that he will come before that great and dreadful day, the Lord comes?

Some people thought that this verse meant the Messiah, but it doesn't mean that at all. It is a warning of the 2nd coming of the Lord, it is a reference though to one of the two witnesses of Revelation 11:3. It is a reference to something known throughout the bible as "The Day of Wrath", mentioned by prophets throughout the entire Bible. We are better acquainted with the idea under another term... the Great Tribulation.

But look at Luke7 concerning John first.

Now rember he is in prison at this time, has already been told " this is my son in whom I'm well pleased"

Yet still feels the need to ask if Jesus is the messiah. I'm not twisting anything here..

Jesus and John the Baptist

18 John’s disciples told him about all these things. Calling two of them, 19 he sent them to the Lord to ask, “Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?”

20 When the men came to Jesus, they said, “John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, ‘Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?’”

21 At that very time Jesus cured many who had diseases, sicknesses and evil spirits, and gave sight to many who were blind. 22 So he replied to the messengers, “Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy[a] are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor. 23 Blessed is anyone who does not stumble on account of me.”

24 After John’s messengers left, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed swayed by the wind? 25 If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear expensive clothes and indulge in luxury are in palaces. 26 But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 27 This is the one about whom it is written:

“‘I will send my messenger ahead of you,

who will prepare your way before you.’

28 I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”

John was perfect in the law, yet even John is inferior to one who is baptized into the death of Christ. For this is the kingdom of heaven, to be buried with Christ, and to be raised up together with him.

John was greater than all who had been then born of women, but he died before the kingdom of heaven was given. John was the last of the Old Testament Prophets and he followed the Law in all ways but even he falls short of those who are perfected by the spirit of life which is in Christ, which is the natural inheritance of all christians.

Therefore, whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven, by Christian regeneration, is greater than any who has attained only the righteousness of the law, because the law makes nothing perfect (Hebrews 7:19 ).

The least true Christian believer has a more perfect knowledge of Jesus Christ, of his redemption and kingdom, than John the Baptist had, who died before the full manifestation of the Gospel.

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Through John who was a trained adept. Having never been trained in that way I tried to see the image from his perspective. They identify with Isis: the mother of the mysteries. They say it took about 40,000 years just to identify the basics of astrology...but this is all way beyond my pay grade so I'll quietly back out of this fairly awesome thread.

As far as I know, John had no training in astrology, at least in any more detail than the rest of the people of his time. Something we moderns forget about is that they didn't spend their time watching TV or any such places with distractions. In the evening they would go out onto the roof of their house and look at the stars. They had a greater knowledge of astrology as a whole than most of us today have. They knew the names of most of the visible stars and certainly could identify all the constellations in the night sky, and these were just the normal people of the time.

Astrology was a favourite past time of most people, they told sories based on the pictures in the sky, that is how they entertained themselves. It is natural that many of the pictures were common to the world, Virgo being one of them and Virgo meant different things to different peoples.

The constellation of Virgo is representative of many identities, all related to maidens, purity and fertility. She was originally associated to Dike, also known as Justice, daughter of Zeus and Themis, who was once the Mistress of All-Divine Order and Law prior to the Olympians. Dike initially lived among mankind but withdrew when they no longer upheld justice.

In Greek mythology, too, there is a similar theme. Persephone, daughter of Zeus and Demeter, had been abducted and taken to the underworld by Hades. In revenge her mother ruined the harvests, the earth became infertile and the people were starving. Zeus was forced to issue a decree stating that Persephone should spend only a short time each year in the underworld, and when she was released Demeter permitted Nature to resume its natural course.

VIRGO is represented as a woman with a branch in her right hand, and some ears of corn in her left hand. Thus giving a two-fold testimony of the Coming One.

The name of this sign in the Hebrew is Bethulah, which means a virgin, and in the Arabic a branch. The two words are connected, as in Latin--Virgo, which means a virgin; and virga, which means a branch (Vulg. Isa 11:1). Another name is Sunbul, Arabic, an ear of corn.

It is difficult to separate the Virgin and her Seed in the prophecy; and so, here, we have first the sign VIRGO, where the name points to her as the prominent subject; while in the first of the three constellations of this sign, where the woman appears again, the name COMA points to the child as the great subject.

Virgo contains 110 stars, viz., one of the 1st magnitude, six of the 3rd, ten of the 4th, etc.

ARATUS thus sings of them:

"Beneath Bootes feet the Virgin seek,

Who carries in her hand a glittering spike.

Over her shoulder there revolves a star

In the right wing, superlatively bright;

It rolls beneath the tail, and may compare

With the bright stars that deck the Greater Bear.

Upon her sholder one bright star is borne,

One clasps the circling girdle of her loins,

One at her bending knee; and in her hand

Glitters that bright and golden Ear of Corn.

Thus the brightest star in VIRGO (a) * has an ancient name, handed down to us in all the star-maps, in which the Hebrew word Tsemech is preserved. It is called in Arabic Al Zimach, which means the branch. This star is in the ear of corn which she holds in her left hand. Hence the star has a modern Latin name, which has almost superseded the ancient one, Spica, which means, an ear of corn. But this hides the great truth revealed by its name Al Zimach. It foretold the coming of Him who should bear this name. The same Divine inspiration has, in the written Word, four times connected it with Him. There are twenty Hebrew words translated "Branch," but only one of them (Tsemech) is used exclusively of the Messiah, and this word only four times (Jer 33:15 being only a repetition of Jer 23:5). Each of these further connects Him with one special account of Him, given in the Gospels.

Source: http://philologos.org/__eb-tws/chap11.htm

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Posted (edited)

False gospel? And I will go to hell! Hmmm. If you find what I've said to your beliefs offensive I apologise. But I assure you I'm not going to hell, at least I hope so, certainly I am a sinner.

you never said why John denied he was Elijah or even a prophet in your hypothesis. Can you you tell me what your position is on that scripture ?

Also since Elijah was raptured up to heaven why wasn't John, and since Elijah was raptured how is it possible only those after Jesus could be raptured?

John was the greatest of all of prophets because he was the only prophet contemporary to Jesus time however.

Also since he died before the Kingdom of heaven was Given then so was Jesus because that is the Lords Prayer" thy kingdom come..." So if it has already come why should we pray for it to come?

Edited by Irrelevant

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Posted (edited)

What religion are you so I know and will be more careful next time Jor-el?

Edited by Irrelevant

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Posted (edited)

I don't care if your a Jesuit or what you are, do you know that you are preaching a false gospel? You are preaching of a different Lord other than Jesus Christ.....you will go to hell! And if you ARE a Jesuit then you shall definatley go to hell for the stuff your saying, and no hell or purgatory will ever be enough to purge you of your sins....

You sound more like a jehova's witness with your only 144,000.00 stuff your talking about...

Mathew Chp 10:

34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Jesus isn't returning to offer love to "all religions", he's returning to pass judgement on all the false religions of the world! You will see....

John simply wanted confirmation, since he was arrested he wasn't able to witness any of Jesus' miracles himself, he wanted word that Jesus's work had begun. Everyone questions and stumbles and wants confirmation from God, every prophet, disciple, Christian has question or faltered at some point during their life, even Moses did.

John was the Elijah... but the real Elijah will also come again probably as one of the two witnesses spoke of in Revelation. Elijah will probably return with Enoch, and they will convince many and lift the scales off the eyes of many jews who are blinded to the identity of Christ.

The least Jesus spoke of is those who taught not to follow the least of God's commandments, this is a tricky piece of scripture to figure out, Jesus asserts that one must follow the law better then the scribes and Pharisees.... I think this might possibly tie into Paul's teaching in Romans that to the Jew first, and then the Gentile... And what did Paul do? He is the apostle who taught the converted Gentiles, NOT to follow all of God's Commandments.... and in one letter Paul calls himself the least of the Apostles...

1 Corinthians Chapter 15:

9For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Yes he persecuted the church before conversion, but could he also be considered the least because he taught to abandon the laws of Moses?? In either case, as the Lord said, the first shall be last and the last shall be first...

So your position is that even after God spoke to John and told him "this is my Son"

That John was not aware who Jesus was...

So you agree then that John was doubting and needed to be reassured.

And what is your position as to why John denied he was Elijah or even a prophet?

Edited by Irrelevant

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Hi Jor-el,

I once thought of it as a reincarnation example, not just referring "to make ready a people prepared for the Lord" because the article "the" is a "definite" one [not generalized like "a" or "an"]. Could it be a scholarly mistranslation?

God bless.

There are different translations in this regard.

The translations are influenced by what the translator believes to be the essence behind the verse, so is some translations one has "he is the Elijah" and in others, we have "he is Elijah", "this is Elijah".

But the essence is to be seen in the preceding statement "And if you are willing to accept it" or"If you are willing to receive it", implying that it is something not immediately apparent, something that has to be taken on faith. The phrase suggests that John is not Elijah himself, but is someone in the spirit of Elijah, someone that is doing what Elijah was to do...

If we actually look at the verse that prophesies Elijah coming, we note that it never actually says that Elijah would preceed the coming of the Messiah. It says that Elijah will come before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. This is not a reference to the Messiah, it is a reference to Jesus 2nd coming, in greatness and in power, which the Jews traditionally expect.

Malachi 4:5

5 “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes.

So will Elijah come, to announce the coming of the Messiah or is it rather as the verse states, that he will come before that great and dreadful day, the Lord comes?

Some people thought that this verse meant the Messiah, but it doesn't mean that at all. It is a warning of the 2nd coming of the Lord, it is a reference though to one of the two witnesses of Revelation 11:3. It is a reference to something known throughout the bible as "The Day of Wrath", mentioned by prophets throughout the entire Bible. We are better acquainted with the idea under another term... the Great Tribulation.

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What religion are you so I know and will be more careful next time Jor-el?

Be more careful of what exactly? You don't need to be more careful on my account, we are debating a position and that means that we don't have to be careful of anything except respecting one another, we can disagree all we want. I don't want you to feel that you need to be more careful with me.

I hold a number of positions that are not mainstream and others that are so I can't classify myself within any religious context except to say that I am a christian who believes the bible superceeds any other authority including myself.

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Posted (edited)

There are different translations in this regard.

The translations are influenced by what the translator believes to be the essence behind the verse, so is some translations one has "he is the Elijah" and in others, we have "he is Elijah", "this is Elijah".

But the essence is to be seen in the preceding statement "And if you are willing to accept it" or"If you are willing to receive it", implying that it is something not immediately apparent, something that has to be taken on faith. The phrase suggests that John is not Elijah himself, but is someone in the spirit of Elijah, someone that is doing what Elijah was to do...

If we actually look at the verse that prophesies Elijah coming, we note that it never actually says that Elijah would preceed the coming of the Messiah. It says that Elijah will come before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. This is not a reference to the Messiah, it is a reference to Jesus 2nd coming, in greatness and in power, which the Jews traditionally expect.

Malachi 4:5

5 “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes.

So will Elijah come, to announce the coming of the Messiah or is it rather as the verse states, that he will come before that great and dreadful day, the Lord comes?

Some people thought that this verse meant the Messiah, but it doesn't mean that at all. It is a warning of the 2nd coming of the Lord, it is a reference though to one of the two witnesses of Revelation 11:3. It is a reference to something known throughout the bible as "The Day of Wrath", mentioned by prophets throughout the entire Bible. We are better acquainted with the idea under another term... the Great Tribulation.

Is it your position that the spirit of Elijah comes both before Jesus and before the 2 coming then?

Edited by Irrelevant

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Posted (edited)

Is it your position that the spirit of Elijah comes both before Jesus and before the 2 coming then?

People misinterpretation caused them to expect Elijah to announce the coming of the Messiah, but that is not what the text says, is it. It only mentions him coming to announce the "day of wrath" which preceeds the coming of the Lord, which we identify as the 2nd coming, which is exactly what the Jews always expected of the Messiah. Have you never noticed that their view is almost exactly how we describe the millenial reign of christ?

Edited by Jor-el

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It should be obvious to masterflint who has told me : I need a theology lesson , trashed the Jesuits , trashed the Jehovah witness ( nobody's calling God Jehovah here) , Condemned me to hell, called me a anti Christ! , hasn't answered any questions with any clarity, promoted himself and all the books he's read (bar telling us wether he prefers the Septuagint or masoretic text!) , has infused I don't believe Jesus is the Son of God (though I have clearly stated as such) , will be corrupted by the anti Christ ! And Thinks I'm hell on earth...and if certainly destined for it.

I will tell you I am not a Jesuit anymore as I don't agree with JEPD as i think it's likely there were 2 authors. But also I don't agree with Mary being anymore than a pure woman who gave birth to Jesus..so I don't hold Mary quite in same way, its more of a Protestant position (please don't say there all going to hell as heretics as well, when belief in Jesus is said to be enough)

I will therefore repeat my simple question to him to remind him of a simple question: why John the Baptist Denied he was either a prophet or Elijah if Jesus said he was?

And do you think this gave Jesus a credibility problem with the Jews because based on Johns denial they therefore could not except Jesus , given that they asked Jesus . ."if your the messiah were is Elijah" , that may have also encouraged somewhat there belief at that time he was a false prophet and should be crucified ?

(Now I could go look up the exact passage but I'm sure you know it, it's just I like to quote scripture the traditional way as was done by Jesus by simply Quoting the first line, however if you are not aware of it I shall refer to it)

And I ask since you have read these books even some that are not canonised MasterFlint can I ask what your opinion on them may be? In particular the Gospel of Tomas in regards to his account being that the resurrected Jesus was A spirit and not flesh..something alluded to have being said by Tomas as saying in the canonised books , but therefore being a different account in his own Gospel , which was the cause to have it rejected so that its not included in the bible as organised by the council of Nicea

( and no I'm not a Coptic Christian either before you may ask )

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Posted (edited)

People misinterpretation caused them to expect Elijah to announce the coming of the Messiah, but that is not what the text says, is it. It only mentions him coming to announce the "day of wrath" which preceeds the coming of the Lord, which we identify as the 2nd coming, which is exactly what the Jews always expected of the Messiah. Have you never noticed that their view is almost exactly how we describe the millenial reign of christ?

This is a message for you, please read this carefully and test my words for there true.

I agree that they have the view of a millennial reign. However there was no prophesy of a second coming until close to the end of Jesus mission and I suspect that's because it was hoped that Jesus would be received by them, John giving testament to himself being Elijah as Jesus stated instead of denying who he was, also John preparing a people to receive him (since John had his own followers of 140 or so) and John also being Jesus head Disciple instead of Simon Peter.

The question to me is what would have been the outcome had John the Baptist fulfilled his role as Elijah and made his path straight.

That being : Jesus accepted ! Taken to Rome (since they found no fault in him even in grave circumstance and this being the very reason why Rome was there, to spread the message throughout the world as quickly as possible) Jesus then being called "mighty councillor!" By the Roman Senate, and Christianity spread to the world in Jesus lifetime henceforth. And yes this would mean no second coming as there never was a 2nd coming christ prophesied in the OT. In fact as you stated they await the millennial reign messiah.. I believe this refusal of John to follow was prideful and completely ignorant of who he was and what he was there to do since he did neither, that this complete ignorance and lack of faith in Jesus completely frustrated the providence! They would have risen all fallen together as there fate relied on each other , that the humans chosen by these spirits required complete cooperation but whilst Jesus did surrender his will , John didn't . in fact they were both murdered in the end because of Johns denial he was Elijah. But also had jesus lived Jesus would have given us much more teaching being that he is still alive and therefore there would not have been the need to have a second coming at all. This second coming being a countermeasure and never prophesied by anybody except Jesus towards the end of his mission where he knew for sure it was going bad.

However I believe Jesus was crying so much because of his betrayal by everybody, that his heart was crushed by the faithlessness of everybody close to him, and this is shown by his words " my heart is greatly troubled" and "let this cup pass from me but not as I will" , this being said because he in his heart wanted to finish this mission if at all possible..

I also believe Mary was his intend but he never got a chance to consummate this union, the Gospel of Mary is a interesting read , and Jesus did love her very much.

I believe this Gospel was hidden by the early Asines who was the group Jesus was from because things went a little wrong due to John, and that they did not want to confuse the early church, which is also why pages are out of it. The gospel is the o,dest book in ex instance contemporary to the life of Jesus, included in the Dead Sea scrolls is a scroll called the Jesus scroll.

This is quite a moved position, however it allows a understanding of Jesus tears and a possible series of events that are scripture based however removed from established tradition. I'm saying Jesus did not come predestined to die on a cross, that in the OT there's 2 types of prophesies concerning him, in one he's accepted based on those around him having faith, fulfilling there portion of responsibility and no need for second coming, and another where humans in there free will fail our God (just as they did in the garden of Eden) and a need for a second coming (in the spirit of Jesus somebody who unites with him (no not me me , im irrelevant) as John did for a time with Elijah, and this Son of man will fulfil all that Jesus was unable to accomplish, which is why the Bible asks " but when he comes will he find faith on earth?"

I'm concerned in light of this that people may once again reject the returning lord, thereby the prophesy in Luke 17 that is clearly about him being occurring, and if he's rejected then great tribulation may happen as it did to the Jews 70 years after his death, the whole of Jerusalem and Israel being essentially sacked! If by the grace of God go I , as a example they had in fact fallen out of the grace of God , and this lasts until the end of the age. Hence the parable of the fig tree.

I'm suggesting this as the reason why the temple veil of the holy of holy was torn in two, the ground shaken and the sun darkened, I'm suggesting God was very angry his Son had been betrayed, beaten and butchered!

I put it to you not just was Jesus heart broken, but also our dear Gods was crying rivers, have you ever really tried to understand Gods heart or connect with it?

I would suggest people try figure out our dear Lord Jesus heart and what his tears were for as I can assure they were not for himself..or because he feared death.

I put it to you if he knew the cross was his sole purpose he would have danced his way there!

I would suggest that Jesus , who only started to prophesy towards the end of his mission about a 2nd coming , and knowing that he was in for it after seeing what they did to John ( in reference to the text " I tell you he did come and they did to him, so as they shall do to me!") knew he was going to suffer incredibly.

This may shock you being something completely different to what you have heard. You may prefer the sunday school version, but i remind you that even after Noah's flood God put a rainbow in the sky to show his happiness and this is a far cry from what happened around the death of Jesus, we are still praying for his Kingdom and will to be done on earth, and a second coming, I can't tell you anymore unless you first verify these things and see them for yourself.

If you do please contact me in private and I will tell you something that you may have been praying your whole life to know..

Any true Followers here look! Hear!

I am a messenger nothing more and a unworthy one at that.

Yes this is a jump, but scripture based non the less.

Edited by Irrelevant

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This is a message for you, please read this carefully and test my words for there true.

I agree that they have the view of a millennial reign. However there was no prophesy of a second coming until close to the end of Jesus mission and I suspect that's because it was hoped that Jesus would be received by them, John giving testament to himself being Elijah as Jesus stated instead of denying who he was, also John preparing a people to receive him (since John had his own followers of 140 or so) and John also being Jesus head Disciple instead of Simon Peter.

The question to me is what would have been the outcome had John the Baptist fulfilled his role as Elijah and made his path straight.

That being : Jesus accepted ! Taken to Rome (since they found no fault in him even in grave circumstance and this being the very reason why Rome was there, to spread the message throughout the world as quickly as possible) Jesus then being called "mighty councillor!" By the Roman Senate, and Christianity spread to the world in Jesus lifetime henceforth. And yes this would mean no second coming as there never was a 2nd coming christ prophesied in the OT. In fact as you stated they await the millennial reign messiah.. I believe this refusal of John to follow was prideful and completely ignorant of who he was and what he was there to do since he did neither, that this complete ignorance and lack of faith in Jesus completely frustrated the providence! They would have risen all fallen together as there fate relied on each other , that the humans chosen by these spirits required complete cooperation but whilst Jesus did surrender his will , John didn't . in fact they were both murdered in the end because of Johns denial he was Elijah. But also had jesus lived Jesus would have given us much more teaching being that he is still alive and therefore there would not have been the need to have a second coming at all. This second coming being a countermeasure and never prophesied by anybody except Jesus towards the end of his mission where he knew for sure it was going bad.

Hi Irrelevant,

You are talking of a what if scenario.. if Jesus had been accepted, if John had not doubted and refused the path before him and so on...

But I ask you, did not the Jews have two very different views of their Messiah?, they are actually opposing views and they are quite well known to us, one is the "servant", the other is as "king". They are better known as "Moshiach ben Joseph" and "Moshiach ben David".

It was so blatant, that early Jews before the coming of Jesus actually thought that there would be two Messiahs, each one embodying each of these two prophecies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah_ben_Joseph

This to me exemplifies that Jesus knew exactly what awaited him, there was never any hope of acceptance by the people, it wasn't even part of the plan. Jesus purpose was in fact always the cross. I say this with utmost certainty because without the cross, the rest of the prophecy could never come to pass. Jesus wasn't there to start a political reign, or to initiate the earthly kingdom of God, He himself says as much...

Luke 17:20

20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other.

25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

It is my view then that Jesus purpose was never to follow the path as you have described, there are too many instances within the bible that demonstrate the opposite. The bible depicts Jesus in the role of Moshiach ben Joseph, but the time will come when he too will depict the role of Moshiach ben David.

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so is some translations one has "he is the Elijah" and in others, we have "he is Elijah", "this is Elijah".

...

It is a reference to something known throughout the bible as "The Day of Wrath", mentioned by prophets throughout the entire Bible. We are better acquainted with the idea under another term... the Great Tribulation.

Thank you, Jor-el. It's uncanny that I have always thought of the Bible as a training manual to get to heaven (through Jesus Christ) and have a new mind or consciousness. I used to fear the idea of memory being erased in the afterlife, and I even talked about it on earlier threads/posts.

"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind." Isaiah 65:17

Peace.

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I was asked by a number of fellow members to further describe why the 11th of September is the actual birthdate of Jesus Christ,

As I stated earlier, there are three things that need to be contextualized:

1. Astronomy

2. History

3. The biblical record

I have given a large part of the context regarding astronomy so my next step is to give the historical context.

A number of items need to be looked at, that help identify the birthdate of Jesus with more exactness. The 1st of these is that Jesus was born within the reign of Herod the great, before he died. Herod reigned from 36 B.C.E. to 1 B.C.E.

Josephus, the Historian said that Herod’s capture of Jerusalem coincided exactly with a Day of Atonement. He further stated that it was precisely to the very day, 27 years after the Roman general Pompey conquered Jerusalem in 63 B.C.E. Clearly, this chronological fact leads one to 25 October, 36 B.C. for Herod’s capture of Jerusalem.

This destruction befell the city of Jerusalem when Marcus Agrippa and Caninius Gallus were consuls of Rome on the hundred eighty and fifth olympiad, on the third month, on the solemnity of the fast, as if a periodical revolution of calamities had returned since that which befell the Jews under Pompey; for the Jews were taken by him on the same day, and this was after twenty-seven years' time.

See also the list of Consuls and their respective dates... List of Consuls

Comemorative coins have been found that show this. Coins minted by Herod the Great to comemorate his victory in Jerusalem in 37/36 B.C. specifically on 10th of Tishrei, 3726 (Yom Kippur - Day of Atonement).

6b358a830c8bf308ba2c0b8b38e8be48_f232.jpg

As you may know the Olympiads count 4 year periods, the 185th was from July 40 B.C. to June 36 B.C. but the Consuls were elected in December and started ruling on the Kalends of January (1st of January). Something that was instituted in 153 B.C. according to historical data. (See: Consul)

Thus we can establish that if we are to trust Josephus, The consuls could only have been elected for the year of 36 B.C. if we are to follow the sabbatical years and the olyimpiads.

According to Josephus, we also read...

When he had done these things, he died, the fifth day after he had caused Antipater to be slain; having reigned, since he had procured Antigonus to be slain, thirty-four years; but since he had been declared king by the Romans, thirty-seven.

Antigonus was executed a few months after the fall of Jerusalem, so it could not be earlier than September 22, 36 B.C (Gregorian). Thus according to my calculations 36 - 34 gives a date of 2 B.C.E for Herods death. This makes Herod’s 34th year start in Nisan in 2 B.C. (March 4, 2 B.C.) and it ends with Nisan in 1 B.C. (March 23, 1 B.C). Reigning dates of Monarchs are counted inclusively, which means the year he died was counted, whether he made it to the end of the year or not.

This leaves us with an actual date of 1 B.C for Herods death. In fact we can state that he died in January of 1 B.C. soon after a total lunar eclipse which occured on the 10th of January. The only reason people give a date of 4 B.C. is because of a partial lunar eclipse in that year, because according to the traditional counting done by historians, he would have died in 3 B.C. That is why they all state that Josephus counted one year too many...

lunartk4.jpg

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Head of Pompey.The Pompeian Era was a calendar era used by Hellenistic cities in Roman Palestine, in particular the cities of the Decapolis. The calendar counted the years from the region's conquest by the Roman general Pompey in 63 BCE. Many of these cities had been self-governing poleis before the Jewish Hasmoneans had conquered them in the 2nd century BCE. The Romans restored their self-governing status, so the conquest amounted to a "new foundation" of the cities, and they made that date the epochal year of their calendars. Some other nearby cities, such as Philadelphia, adopted the era even though they had never been under Hasmonean rule.

When archaeologists find Pompeian dates on a city's coins and inscriptions, they use them as evidence of the city's membership in the Decapolis league. However, some cities that ancient writers listed in the Decapolis did not use Pompeian dates. In particular, Damascus continued to reckon dates using the Seleucid era.

The region continued to use the Pompeian era during the Byzantine period, long after the term "Decapolis" had fallen out of use. The calendar was used even after the Muslim conquest of Syria in the 7th century CE. A church in Khilda, near Philadelphia (Amman), is inscribed with the Pompeian year 750, or 687 CE, several years after the Muslim conquest.

Dates in the Pompeian Era

1 PE = 63 BCE

63 PE = 1 BCE

64 PE = 1 CE

699 PE = 636 CE (Battle of Yarmouk)

2073 PE = 2010 CE

Source: The Pompeian Era

Now we come to another aspect that is well known regarding the birth of Jesus and that is the so called worldwide census ordered by the Roman Empire, the one that would have forced Joseph and Mary to go to Bethlehem, from which their family was originally from as part of the Davidic line.

An inscription found in Paphlagonia (north central Asia Minor) that is clearly dated to 3 B.C. records an oath of obedience "taken by the inhabitants of Paphlagonia and the Roman businessmen dwelling among them." (Lewis and Reinhold, Roman Civilization, II.Pages 34–35).

In the third year from the twelfth consulship of the Emperor Caesar Augustus, son of a god, March 6, in the … at Gangra, the following Oath was taken by the inhabitants of Paphlagonia and the Roman businessmen dwelling among them:

“I swear by Jupiter, Earth, Sun, by all the gods and goddesses, and by Augustus himself, that I will be loyal to Caesar Augustus and to his children and descendants all my life in word, in deed, and in thought, regarding as friends whomever they so regard, and considering as enemies whomever they so adjudge; that in defense of their interests I will spare neither body, soul, life, not children, but will in every way undergo every danger in defense of their interests; that whenever I perceive or hear anything being said or planned or done against them I will lodge information about this and will be an enemy to whoever says or plans or does any such thing; and that whomever they adjudge to be enemies I will by land and sea, with weapons and sword, pursue and punish. But if I do anything contrary to this oath, or not in conformity with what I swore, I myself call down upon myself, my body, my soul, my life, my children, and all my family and property, utter ruin and utter destruction unto all my issue and all my descendants, and may neither earth nor sea receive the bodies of my family or my descendants, or yield fruits to them.”

The same Oath was sworn by all the people in the land at altars of Augustus in the temples of Augustus in the various districts. In this manner did the people of Phazimon, who inhabit the city now called Neapolis, all together swear the Oath in the temple of Augustus at the altar of Augustus.

The inscription states that Romans as well as non-citizens took the oath. And importantly, the whole of the population were required to swear it. "The same oath was sworn also by all the people in the land at the altars of Augustus in the temples of Augustus in the various districts." This was in 3 B.C.

Also, in Judaea an oath was required of all the people at the same time. It is likely that the oath mentioned by Josephus was the same that the people of Paphlagonia were required to give.

For there was a certain sect of men that were Jews, who valued themselves highly upon the exact skill they had in the law of their fathers, and made men believe they were highly favored by God, by whom this set of women were inveigled. These are those that are called the sect of the Pharisees, who were in a capacity of greatly opposing kings. A cunning sect they were, and soon elevated to a pitch of open fighting and doing mischief. Accordingly, when all the people of the Jews gave assurance of their good-will to Caesar, and to the king's government, these very men did not swear, being above six thousand; and when the king imposed a fine upon them, Pheroras's wife paid their fine for them. In order to requite which kindness of hers, since they were believed to have the foreknowledge of things to come by Divine inspiration, they foretold how God had decreed that Herod's government should cease, and his posterity should be deprived of it; but that the kingdom should come to her and Pheroras, and to their children. These predictions were not concealed from Salome, but were told the king; as also how they had perverted some persons about the palace itself; so the king slew such of the Pharisees as were principally accused, and Bagoas the eunuch, and one Carus, who exceeded all men of that time in comeliness, and one that was his catamite. He slew also all those of his own family who had consented to what the Pharisees foretold; and for Bagoas, he had been puffed up by them, as though he should be named the father and the benefactor of him who, by the prediction, was foretold to be their appointed king; for that this king would have all things in his power, and would enable Bagoas to marry, and to have children of his own body begotten.

So we have the very oath mentioned by dozens of independant sources all over the Empire. An oath taken by all peoples Roman and Non Roman that were under the power of the Roman Empire at the time. Or was Israel the sole exception?

The Armenian historian Moses of Khoren said that the native sources he had available showed that in the second year of Abgar, king of Armenia in 3 B.C., this oath of allegience brought Roman agents to Armenia, bringing the image of Augustus Caesar, which they set up in every temple. Abgar then a problem with Herod (who is supposed to be dead at this time). He also states categorically that this is the census referred to by Luke.

R.W. Thomson, Moses of Khoren's History of the Armenians, II.26.

38428039.jpg

67058662.jpg

Here is another source for this oath of allegience...

“[Augustus] ordered that a census be taken of each province everywhere and that all men be enrolled. ... This is the earliest and most famous public acknowledgment which marked Caesar as the first of all men and the Romans as lords of the world, a published list of all men entered individually .... This first and greatest census was taken, since in this one name of Caesar all the peoples of the great nations took oath, and at the same time, through the participation in the census, were made apart of one society”

As we can see, all the evidence points to the year 3 BC as the year of Jesus birth. so how do we know which month it was?

The bible is not specific but a number of illuminating passages help us to get more information. We know that it happened after the anouncement of the universal oath required by Caesar Augustus and decreed by King Herod. This universal oath of allegience was presented on February 5, 2 B.C. Augustus was given the title Pater Patriae (Father of the Country) by decree of the Senate and the people of Rome. The festivities coincided with his 25the jubilee year of being emperor of Rome and the 750the year of the founding of Rome.

Thus we know that Jesus was certainly born before this time. The oath would have been signed or marked by each person taking the oath, a list would then be compiled of all the people who took the oath and this list numbering in the millions would then have been presented to Caesar Augustus on that day. The oath is mentioned by a number of historians and attested to historically.

Thus the oath itself would have been required during the preceeding year, of 3 B.C, for all the people to participate in the oath of allegience. Historically these census' and other registrations usually took place between July and October. Ther was a practical reason for this, the summer months provided excellent travelling conditions, while earlier in the year, rainfall would have caused populations, problems in obeying official eddicts. When this is connected with the priestly courses of the priesthood, we get to Septemebr, 3 B.C.

We know that Jesus was born in September due to another aspect found in the bible...

Luke 1:5

“There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zechariah, of the course Abijah and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.”

This verse tells us something about the parents of John the Baptist. Zechariah was a priest whose duty it was, on certain occasions, to offer the national sacrifices in the temple at Jerusalem. While he was accomplishing his assigned requirements, Luke said an angel came to him and told him that his wife Elizabeth would bear a child. Zechariah could hardly believe what he was told because Elizabeth was beyond the age of childbearing. The angel understood his reason for disbelief; so, Zechariah was struck dumb to prove the certainty of what was prophesied. When Zechariah came out of the inner temple, the people perceived that he had seen a vision and were amazed that he was unable to speak. They realized that something significant had been pointed out to Zechariah.

Luke tells us that all this happened while Zechariah “executed the priest’s office before God in the order of his course” (Luke 1:8). He was performing his priestly duties “according to the custom of the priest’s office” (Luke 1:9).

The period for the eighth course of Abijah would have been from May 19 to May 26. If it were in this springtime administration when the angelic messenger came to Zechariah about his wife having a child, then we have a chronological hint of the period for John the Baptist’s conception — because it must have happened immediately after that time.

Indeed, because Zechariah was struck dumb during his administration, he was disqualified at once from exercising the priest’s office (Leviticus 21:16–23). He no doubt left very soon for home. Thus, somewhere near May 26 to June 1, Elizabeth must have conceived. The human gestation period is about 280 days (40 weeks). This shows the birth of John the Baptist near March 10, 3 B.C.

Thus Mary became pregnant at the end of December to Mid-January. She went to visit Elizabeth who was six months pregnant at the time, and she stayed there in or around Jerusalem until shortly before John the Baptist was born, in March.

All this is quite clear in Luke Chapter 1

This naturally allows us to calculate that Jesus was thus born sometime in September. When we add the astronomical information given in my 1st post we get 11th September 3 B.C.E.

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Thank you, Jor-el. It's uncanny that I have always thought of the Bible as a training manual to get to heaven (through Jesus Christ) and have a new mind or consciousness. I used to fear the idea of memory being erased in the afterlife, and I even talked about it on earlier threads/posts.

"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind." Isaiah 65:17

Peace.

True, but it isn't something we will miss, I think. The important things will accompany us forever, I believe we will retain memory, but it will become unimportant to the point that we won't even bother to remember.

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True, but it isn't something we will miss, I think. The important things will accompany us forever...

You're right about that, Jor-el. I totally agree.

Thank you.

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Posted (edited)

Hi Irrelevant,

You are talking of a what if scenario.. if Jesus had been accepted, if John had not doubted and refused the path before him and so on...

But I ask you, did not the Jews have two very different views of their Messiah?, they are actually opposing views and they are quite well known to us, one is the "servant", the other is as "king". They are better known as "Moshiach ben Joseph" and "Moshiach ben David".

It was so blatant, that early Jews before the coming of Jesus actually thought that there would be two Messiahs, each one embodying each of these two prophecies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah_ben_Joseph

This to me exemplifies that Jesus knew exactly what awaited him, there was never any hope of acceptance by the people, it wasn't even part of the plan. Jesus purpose was in fact always the cross. I say this with utmost certainty because without the cross, the rest of the prophecy could never come to pass. Jesus wasn't there to start a political reign, or to initiate the earthly kingdom of God, He himself says as much...

Luke 17:20

20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other.

25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

It is my view then that Jesus purpose was never to follow the path as you have described, there are too many instances within the bible that demonstrate the opposite. The bible depicts Jesus in the role of Moshiach ben Joseph, but the time will come when he too will depict the role of Moshiach ben David.

In reference to the Comming Kingdom.

I would suggest that the Kingdom does not come with signs and wonders that can be observed.

Therefore people should not look to the sky. For signs in nature such as the sea boiling, the sun being darkened, the moon turning red..

I would say that only the Magi who were trained Zoroastrians from Persia noticed these anyway and nobody in all the children of Isreal saw these or was aware. However those who are trained in such manner lead by the spirit of God may observe them at this time.

I would also suggest that the Comming Kingdom is not a actual city Comming down but that this is a another symbolism, therefore that Jeresalem or Rome is not this place,( of course they would like it to be!) that the Kingdom of heaven is not manifested in a physical geographical place or race of people, but rather is something that can't be observed with the naked eye, infact that the kingdom of Heaven lives inside people. That this returning lord will come like a thief in the night, recieve those who can receive his new message, ( the book that the Angel gave to to John that is sweet as honey in the mouth but turns bitter in the stomach) and leave..that those who can be aware enough shall receive this truth also. That if the dead actually shall rise in some physical way then they would be seen in such signs and wonder. I shall remind I have already given a reference to the book of Thomas , that this records this event of resurection where many saw other saints and sages where also resurrected at the time of Jesus resurrection, and these also appeared to many at that time, that when The Lord after his physical death was mistaken to be the gardener when he "appeared" to Mary first, and to Thomas when he " appeared"to the Disciples.

(This book of Thomas should have been read by a mentioned person if they did visit a mentioned library.)

I shall also say I prefer the Masoretic text over the Sepuagint. And I don't read Greek so the Lxx is out of it for me. Also I can't read the actual Hebrew bible. So my study of OT scripture are from Masoretic text and I don't only follow books that have been Cannonised as not all were available in my opinion at that time, the Dead Sea Scrolls that were written by the Asines whom Jesus belonged were buried in the Desrert. Just before the Romans Sacked all Isreal.

Edited by Irrelevant

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infact that the kingdom of Heaven lives inside people.

Hi Irrelevant,

Is it really fact? You actually know this for certain?

Once I upon a time, I believed that, especially during my days of being a "kundalini" meditation teacher. I wouldn't be in this world today and reconverted to my Christian root if Heaven were inside of me. Long story, and I've already mentioned my Void sojourn many times. It makes me wonder, though: Who started this notion? One of the members of the Divine Council, perhaps?

Nevertheless, I respect your "fact," the way you see it.

Peace to you.

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