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Jor-el

The Woman clothed with the Sun...

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I do not agree, because at no point do we substitute the Jews in anything.... if anything we are adopted into their promises, they are never rejected.

They still reject Jesus. Christians are the new Jews. If you don't believe in Jesus you're not a new Jew. Ask yourself, Why was the Second Temple destroyed? Is it because the oldschool Jews didn't get with the program? Judaism is a dead religion because they rejected Jesus. Jesus is life.
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Posted (edited)

They still reject Jesus. Christians are the new Jews. If you don't believe in Jesus you're not a new Jew. Ask yourself, Why was the Second Temple destroyed? Is it because the oldschool Jews didn't get with the program? Judaism is a dead religion because they rejected Jesus. Jesus is life.

That is true but does not negate the fact that they are still the legitimate holders of the promises we live under. You can state the promises as you like but to leave them out is also being blind to God and his plans for mankind, of which the Jews will always be a central part.

Our destiny is different from theirs, as we are taken by Jesus before the great tribulation, so will they once again continue with the plan God set out for them and the rest of mankind.

You forget that it is not we who will inhabit the millenium as normal humans living under the kingship of Jesus, it is the Jews and the rest of the nations of the world, and who will live in the kingdom of the Messiah?

The Jews, as promised by God to them from the beginning, God does not take back his promises.

Edited by Jor-el

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It's not the Jews but "Messianic" Jews. I'm not leaving out the oldschool Jews. They have to get with the program because no one comes to the Father but through Jesus. Messianic Jews or Born Again Christians are the only Jews.

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If I convert to Judaism does that make me apart of the promise people? In not mocking anything in legitimately interested if being a Jew is a birthright or if you are considered a Jew if you convert.

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It's not the Jews but "Messianic" Jews. I'm not leaving out the oldschool Jews. They have to get with the program because no one comes to the Father but through Jesus. Messianic Jews or Born Again Christians are the only Jews.

No, the Messianic Jews are not seperate in that they are members of the body of Christ as well, so when the time comes they will be part of the uplifted church. Do you deny this?

As such, for example, the 144.000 Jews of revelation are NOT Messianic Jews, since the Messianics will be gone just like the church. So they are part of the Israel that is left behind.

The bible is also clear that the Jews will inhabit Israel, in the time of the Rulership of the Messiah, this is even a part of their 13 principles of faith, which they are NOT interpreting incorrectly.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the Church, of which the Messianics are a part.

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If I convert to Judaism does that make me apart of the promise people? In not mocking anything in legitimately interested if being a Jew is a birthright or if you are considered a Jew if you convert.

Both, you become Jew in all respects, but one. You will not belong to one of the 12 tribes of Israel. The problem is of another nature. While you may be accepted by one group of Jews as a convert, another group does not have to accept you.

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No, the Messianic Jews are not seperate in that they are members of the body of Christ as well, so when the time comes they will be part of the uplifted church. Do you deny this?

As such, for example, the 144.000 Jews of revelation are NOT Messianic Jews, since the Messianics will be gone just like the church. So they are part of the Israel that is left behind.

The bible is also clear that the Jews will inhabit Israel, in the time of the Rulership of the Messiah, this is even a part of their 13 principles of faith, which they are NOT interpreting incorrectly.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the Church, of which the Messianics are a part.

Jorel, what kind of Jews are they? They're not ordinary "Jews"? They are "sealed" Jews.

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Posted (edited)

Jorel, what kind of Jews are they? They're not ordinary "Jews"? They are "sealed" Jews.

Do you know what that means?

And they are not the only jews to survive.. anyone who has studied eschatology knows this to be true, just as the other human beings in the world after the 2nd coming also survive and continue under the rulership of Jesus for the Millenium.

Think...

Where do the people who inhabit the millenium come from?

they are not us the bride of Christ, we rule with him, and so do the Messianic Jews, who are part of the same body.... so who are the nations mentioned in the millenium, who is the Israel in the Millenium?

People will marry, they will die as before, children will be born and grow up, as before, the nations are composed of absolutely normal people who survived the great tribulation. Jews and Gentiles who never took the mark of the beast. They will recognize Christ as the ruler and Messiah like it has always been foretold.

Every every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Daniel 7:14

He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him.His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Psalm 86:9

All the nations you have made shall come and worship before you, O Lord, and shall glorify your name.

Zechariah 14:16

Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths.

Revelation 15:4

Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.”

Edited by Jor-el

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Yes it is true, that the text does have an astronomical connection, the woman is Virgo, the Virgin, but the constellation is also a reference to Israel and Israel personified by mary, the mother of Jesus, who brought the Child of promise to humanity.

In effect this astronomical conjunction, not only gives us the exact date of jesus birth, but also according to some the future date of the great tribulation.

The beats the hell out of the theory that Jhon of Patmos was a madman doesn't it. That's a pretty calculated statement and not some random hallucination.

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The beats the hell out of the theory that Jhon of Patmos was a madman doesn't it. That's a pretty calculated statement and not some random hallucination.

Oh the whole book is very calculated, down to the last detail.... no hallucinations from drugs there.

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http://www.gotquesti...org/144000.html

Time to put two and two together Jorel. :tu:

And i read the link but didn't get any sudden insight into your meaning...

But one thing is clear, the 144.000 are Jews and they are sealed with Gods protection. But I never said otherwise, what i want you to do is explain to us all, who the nations and Israel will be in the Millenium.

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But one thing is clear, the 144.000 are Jews and they are sealed with Gods protection.

How did they manage to get "sealed" I wonder?!

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their mission is to evangelize the post-rapture world and proclaim the gospel during the tribulation period.

Kind of odd for oldschool Jews to do.

:yes:

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How did they manage to get "sealed" I wonder?!

God sealed them, it doesn't mean nobody else survives... which scripture clearly does not support but instead refutes such an assumption.

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Posted (edited)

their mission is to evangelize the post-rapture world and proclaim the gospel during the tribulation period.

Kind of odd for oldschool Jews to do. :yes:

Whose mission, the 144.000 or the Jews as a whole?

Another assumption, why evangelize when every single person in that world will clearly be able to see Jesus and worship him directly?

There will be no more old school jews as you call them, they will be living in the millenium as prophesied, led by the Messiah himself, there won't be any doubters there.

As for the 144.000 they are not evangelizing... the are singing Gods praise, nowhere is it stated that they evangelize anyone.

Edited by Jor-el

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As for the 144.000 they are not evangelizing... the are singing Gods praise, nowhere is it stated that they evangelize anyone.

palms in their hands; 10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.

Don't you think that's evangelizing?

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Do you give away christian tract? Do you share the Joy in public?

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palms in their hands; 10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.

Don't you think that's evangelizing?

Hmmm JLU, I would like you to go back and reread what you posted...

You are quoting verse 10 of Revelation 7, now if you pay attention, you will notice that verses 1 to 8 are located specifically on earth.... however verses 9 to 17 are located specifically in heaven, this is quite clear from the text and if you will notice... the Great multitude who is doing the praising is in heaven, not the earth.

Now if the 144.000 do evangelize as you say, then those who accepted the gospel and are represented by the great multitude are also very dead.

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Hmmm JLU, I would like you to go back and reread what you posted...

Will do.

You are quoting verse 10 of Revelation 7, now if you pay attention, you will notice that verses 1 to 8 are located specifically on earth.... however verses 9 to 17 are located specifically in heaven, this is quite clear from the text and if you will notice... the Great multitude who is doing the praising is in heaven, not the earth.

Thank you for pointing that out to me. Are you saying the link I gave you is bogus?

Now if the 144.000 do evangelize as you say, then those who accepted the gospel and are represented by the great multitude are also very dead.

Because of the Rapture?

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God sealed them, it doesn't mean nobody else survives... which scripture clearly does not support but instead refutes such an assumption.

Does scripture refutes the sealed doctrine?

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The 144,000 are sealed at the beginning of the 7 year tribulation. half way through the tribulation they are raptured. what do you think they are doing for 3 and a half years other than spreading the gospel of Christ?? :whistle:

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Posted (edited)

The 144,000 are sealed at the beginning of the 7 year tribulation. half way through the tribulation they are raptured. what do you think they are doing for 3 and a half years other than spreading the gospel of Christ?? :whistle:

144000 is a natural number. It has significance in several religious movements. In the Mayan calendar, a baktun is a period of 144,000 days.A Baktun is 20 Katun cycles of the ancient Maya Long Count Calendar, which contains 144,000 days.

The number is also given as the total number of prophets in Islam.

So its more then likely that that number was copied by the Piso's from the Mayans for the new religion of Christianity.

Edited by Truthseeker007

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Does scripture refutes the sealed doctrine?

Sealed means one thing, but it does not mean what you are implying, that the sealed ones are the only ones who survive the tribulation.... is that not what you are saying?

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Thank you for pointing that out to me. Are you saying the link I gave you is bogus?

Not bogus, being misinterpreted by you. Either that Multitude is the result of the 144.000 evangelizing those left behind, and they pay for their salvation with their lives because they are hunted down and killed by the Antichrist and the system he controls, or the great multitude represents the raptured church in heaven.

Either way its cool. You can accept either view since both have arguments supporting the view and arguments against the view.

Because of the Rapture?

No, because they are in heaven and if they are evangelized during the great tribulation it means they dies to be present, they are NOT part of the Church, the church ceases to be open, the moment it is raptured. The church. in fac.t according to a number of views is represented by the 24 Elders.

Which view do you think is more accurate according to what you were taught?

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