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Ben Masada

The Wedding of Jesus

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Well, Jor-El, I must admit I admire your tenacity. I gave up on discussion with Mr Masada a long long time ago. I'm enjoying reading your posts, but don't expect anything to change. Like you, I have no problem with a married Jesus. I don't think the Bible supports it either way, certainly it doesn't say he was NOT married, but whether he was or not does not affect his standing in the Christian trinity. I don't think the early church fathers would have had a need to "hide" a marriage, even if he was. Even if Jesus had children, they are not divine, only Jesus was divine. The church fathers knew this just as obviously as we do today. Jesus was not a demigod (half man, half god) the way Hercules (and other demigods) was, so any children he had wouldn't be part-divine.

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But let me just correct you on a lapse of memory: we all know that Jesus was a religious Jew. Even today a very religious Orthodox Jew cannot be addressed by a strange woman in public. Imagine 2000 years ago. Now we have 4 gospels reporting about different women anointing Jesus with perfume from the head down to the feet in public. Not Jewish at all. Let alone a religious Jew.

I don't get it, but maybe it's because I'm not a believer. I thought Jesus didn't follow a few other OT laws and Jewish customs also that religious Jews did observe at the time, which is just as inexplicable using your logic here. Matter of fact I thought that was one of the whole points of his message, it's a 'New' Testament.

But if they were all different, what have the gospels done by considering Jesus a "Casanova"? Jesus could not have been

a Jew but a lascivious libertine aka a fornicator. Is that what you want for him? Wouldn't much better that he was a respectable married man? I would say so.

I think there's a big difference between a 'Casanova' and someone treating women as if they were normal adults, which was somewhat groundbreaking unfortunately at the time Jesus lived.

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Wrong I can name One very specifically who not married... Jeremiah.

And of course you want me to take your word for it. where does it say that he was NOT married? Nowhere. Do you want me to repeat why? I am not going to do it because I don't want you to quit on me in this thread too. But, take a look at 2 Kings 23:31. "Hamutal the mother of Jehoahaz was daughter of Jeremiah."

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Posted (edited)

Jesus may have been a Essence

Essene View of Resurrection.

"Particularly firm is their doctrine of Resurrection; they believe that the flesh will rise again and then be immortal like the soul,

But there was another test of chastity which seems to have been the chief reason for the name of "Ẓenu'im" (Essenes

http://www.jewishenc...es/5867-essenes

The Essenes were originally priests from the Zadokite family who had to flee to the caves of En Gedi because they were afraid for their insurrection against the Hasmonian kings for their decision to hold both kingship and priesthood in Israel. They could not have adopted the Christian doctrine of bodily resurrection but the Jewish one based on Ezekiel 37:12. Then we have from Josephus in his "Wars of the Jews" book that the Essene group that adopted celibacy was only a very small faction who lived completely apart from the greater society in their monastery-style of life. The other more numerous Essene groups that would mingle with society were of the marrigeable kind, as Jesus for example, John the Baptist and many others who are not reported for obvious reasons.

Edited by Ben Masada

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I don't get it, but maybe it's because I'm not a believer. I thought Jesus didn't follow a few other OT laws and Jewish customs also that religious Jews did observe at the time, which is just as inexplicable using your logic here. Matter of fact I thought that was one of the whole points of his message, it's a 'New' Testament.

I think there's a big difference between a 'Casanova' and someone treating women as if they were normal adults, which was somewhat groundbreaking unfortunately at the time Jesus lived.

So, you thought Jesus didn't follow a few other OT laws and Jewish customs? According to Matthew 5:17-19 he came to fulfill all of them down to the letter, even down to the dot of the letter. There is a commandment to the male Jew to leave his father and mother and cling to his wife as to become one flesh with her. (Gen.2:24) According to Matthew 5:17-19 Jesus could not have missed that commandment.

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There's not much investigating to do, if Je'sus had married her, first he wouldn't have told her not to touch him because he had not yet ascended unto the Father.

Second, if he had married her, there wouldn't have been any need for us. Everything would have ended there. Anyone left alive would have just been children of the field and sinners. Remember that after he left things got real ugly. Why didn't spiritually he take her with him.

If you go back to Genesis 2:2 - 2:3

You will see it is a prophecy of Jesus becoming the LORD of the Sabbath and sanctified.

Then comes the man and the woman.

But what is needed to understand is that man came first and then later the woman.

Jesus was created by God in the Holy spirit and came from the womb of Mary.

He lived to verify the Father and to teach us about what it takes to be at one with the Father.

His wife would certainly live a life would verify the Husband and the Father like no other has.

But she is a secret. You won't know it's her until she is upon you.

She will endure a great sadness and a life of travailing.

But when she finally blooms she will be something not seen since Yeshua (Je'-sus)

One thing you have to remember about finding out about her is that you have to look deep into prophecy and what looks like regular stories to find her.

She would have been obscure so as to surprise the people. Jesus happened upon everyone the same way. He wasn't what they expected, but what they needed.

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Well, Jor-El, I must admit I admire your tenacity. I gave up on discussion with Mr Masada a long long time ago. I'm enjoying reading your posts, but don't expect anything to change. Like you, I have no problem with a married Jesus. I don't think the Bible supports it either way, certainly it doesn't say he was NOT married, but whether he was or not does not affect his standing in the Christian trinity. I don't think the early church fathers would have had a need to "hide" a marriage, even if he was. Even if Jesus had children, they are not divine, only Jesus was divine. The church fathers knew this just as obviously as we do today. Jesus was not a demigod (half man, half god) the way Hercules (and other demigods) was, so any children he had wouldn't be part-divine.

Nah, I enjoy my debates with him, I've said this a few times, I'm not here to convince anybody, I doubt that is actually possible, but there are thousands of visitors to our pages seeking clarity and direction, and the essence of my debates is with them always on my mind.

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Posted (edited)

And of course you want me to take your word for it. where does it say that he was NOT married? Nowhere. Do you want me to repeat why? I am not going to do it because I don't want you to quit on me in this thread too. But, take a look at 2 Kings 23:31. "Hamutal the mother of Jehoahaz was daughter of Jeremiah."

Of course not, I wouldn't dream of you taking my word...

But then again, the bible is pretty clear on that bit of data, I should know, I'm named after him.

Jeremiah 16:1-4

1Then the word of the Lord came to me: 2You must not marry and have sons or daughters in this place.” 3For this is what the Lord says about the sons and daughters born in this land and about the women who are their mothers and the men who are their fathers: 4“They will die of deadly diseases. They will not be mourned or buried but will be like dung lying on the ground. They will perish by sword and famine, and their dead bodies will become food for the birds and the wild animals.”

The truth is he never married at all.

As for Hamutal, she was not the daughter of Jeremiah. The Jeremiah that is referenced in 2 Kings 23:31 was a different man called Jeremiah of Libnah.

Just for the record and so that we know this is the truth, Jehoahaz was born in 633/632 B.C. while Jeremiah the prophet was only called to the ministry in 626 B.C. (6 years later), while he was yet a teenager. So the logical question is... How can a teenager have a daughter who was Jehoahaz's mother and wife of Josiah the king of Israel? Did he father her at age 2 or something?

That doesn't even include the little fact that Jeremiah was born in Anathoth not Libnah, thus if anything, his name would be Jeremiah of Anathoth.

Edited by Jor-el

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Nah, I enjoy my debates with him, I've said this a few times, I'm not here to convince anybody, I doubt that is actually possible, but there are thousands of visitors to our pages seeking clarity and direction, and the essence of my debates is with them always on my mind.

Fair pull, I see that side of things, and in many ways I do the same. But I just get frustrated sometimes when we go around in never-ending circles, especially with someone who arbitrarily accepts the New Testament based on his beliefs. If it agrees with him then he uses it, if it doesn't then it's an interpolation, that kind of cripples one side of discussion if we don't even need to entertain what the text says because it disagrees with us.

But that's just me :)

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Fair pull, I see that side of things, and in many ways I do the same. But I just get frustrated sometimes when we go around in never-ending circles, especially with someone who arbitrarily accepts the New Testament based on his beliefs. If it agrees with him then he uses it, if it doesn't then it's an interpolation, that kind of cripples one side of discussion if we don't even need to entertain what the text says because it disagrees with us.

But that's just me :)

Hey Paranoid Android, remember me?? Long time no see huh?? Good to see you still here.

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Fair pull, I see that side of things, and in many ways I do the same. But I just get frustrated sometimes when we go around in never-ending circles, especially with someone who arbitrarily accepts the New Testament based on his beliefs. If it agrees with him then he uses it, if it doesn't then it's an interpolation, that kind of cripples one side of discussion if we don't even need to entertain what the text says because it disagrees with us.

But that's just me :)

Ah but Ben is a special case, I'm intrigued by some of his perspectives and how they reflect a part modern day jewish culture and its interpretation of scripture.

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Hey Paranoid Android, remember me?? Long time no see huh?? Good to see you still here.

Hey BNW, wow it has been a long time. Didn't realise how long.

Ah but Ben is a special case, I'm intrigued by some of his perspectives and how they reflect a part modern day jewish culture and its interpretation of scripture.

Well in any case, I'm enjoying reading your posts :tu:

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Posted (edited)

There's not much investigating to do, if Je'sus had married her, first he wouldn't have told her not to touch him because he had not yet ascended unto the Father.

Second, if he had married her, there wouldn't have been any need for us. Everything would have ended there. Anyone left alive would have just been children of the field and sinners. Remember that after he left things got real ugly. Why didn't spiritually he take her with him.

If you go back to Genesis 2:2 - 2:3

You will see it is a prophecy of Jesus becoming the LORD of the Sabbath and sanctified.

Then comes the man and the woman.

But what is needed to understand is that man came first and then later the woman.

Jesus was created by God in the Holy spirit and came from the womb of Mary. He lived to verify the Father and to teach us about what it takes to be at one with the Father. His wife would certainly live a life would verify the Husband and the Father like no other has.

But she is a secret. You won't know it's her until she is upon you.

She will endure a great sadness and a life of travailing. But when she finally blooms she will be something not seen since Yeshua (Je'-sus)

One thing you have to remember about finding out about her is that you have to look deep into prophecy and what looks like regular stories to find her.

She would have been obscure so as to surprise the people. Jesus happened upon everyone the same way. He wasn't what they expected, but what they needed.

What did they need a savior? Did Jesus save them or anyone else? Things became rather worse with the coming of Jesus than before he was born. Indeed he could have been everything but what the people expected and did not become what the people needed.

So, if Jesus had married Mary Magdalene he would not have told her not to touch him! "Ox2" for haven's sake Jesus had just come out of a crucifixion and he was probably all plastered to suffer any further pain as a result of a passionate hug of his wife. Then again, I see in the emotional eruption of Mary to embrace him an evidence of how much she missed him as to blind herself of what he had gone through.

Edited by Ben Masada

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Nowhere in the New Testament does it ever suggest or even hint that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute neither does it ever suggest that Jesus was married.

Look to your own scriptures, ben masada, Leviticus 21:13-14.

Jesus divorced Israel (see Romans 7:2-6) and the church is His bride (see Ephesians 5:31-32).

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Nowhere in the New Testament does it ever suggest or even hint that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute neither does it ever suggest that Jesus was married.

Look to your own scriptures, ben masada, Leviticus 21:13-14.

Jesus divorced Israel (see Romans 7:2-6) and the church is His bride (see Ephesians 5:31-32).

Does it anywhere in the NT suggest or even hint that Jesus was not married? If you find it for me you have won a Jew to Christianity.

Now that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute take a look at Luke 7:37. "Then a woman known in the town to be a sinner learned that Jesus was dining in the Pharisee's home, brought in a vase of perfumed oil and would anoint Jesus' feet and kiss them..." A woman known in town as a sinner is the best description of a prostitute. Pope Gregory the Great was of the same opinion and declared it so. But at that time she was no longer a prostitute because she was already married to Jesus. That's why she took the freedom to do her anointing of Jesus in public. If this woman was not Mary Magdalene who followed Jesus up to the last moments of Jesus in the cross, Jesus was not what he claimed to be. He becomes rather a "Casanova-like" man and not an Orthodox Jew who could not even be approached by a woman to address herself to him. Let alone if you take the cases reported by the four gospels as four different cases. All the gospels will lose all the credibility they need as legitimate literature.

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Posted (edited)

Does it anywhere in the NT suggest or even hint that Jesus was not married? If you find it for me you have won a Jew to Christianity.

Now that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute take a look at Luke 7:37. "Then a woman known in the town to be a sinner learned that Jesus was dining in the Pharisee's home, brought in a vase of perfumed oil and would anoint Jesus' feet and kiss them..." A woman known in town as a sinner is the best description of a prostitute. Pope Gregory the Great was of the same opinion and declared it so. But at that time she was no longer a prostitute because she was already married to Jesus. That's why she took the freedom to do her anointing of Jesus in public. If this woman was not Mary Magdalene who followed Jesus up to the last moments of Jesus in the cross, Jesus was not what he claimed to be. He becomes rather a "Casanova-like" man and not an Orthodox Jew who could not even be approached by a woman to address herself to him. Let alone if you take the cases reported by the four gospels as four different cases. All the gospels will lose all the credibility they need as legitimate literature.

And where is the proof that the "woman known in the tow as a sinner" was Mary Magdalene? Mary Magdalene doesn't turn up until chapter 8, so you need to do a bit of interpolating to link her to the woman in chapter 7. Some traditions have linked the two, but it is by no means universal, and as I'm sure you know, tradition is by no means gospel (no pun intended). Edited by Paranoid Android

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Does it anywhere in the NT suggest or even hint that Jesus was not married? If you find it for me you have won a Jew to Christianity.

Now that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute take a look at Luke 7:37. "Then a woman known in the town to be a sinner learned that Jesus was dining in the Pharisee's home, brought in a vase of perfumed oil and would anoint Jesus' feet and kiss them..." A woman known in town as a sinner is the best description of a prostitute. Pope Gregory the Great was of the same opinion and declared it so. But at that time she was no longer a prostitute because she was already married to Jesus. That's why she took the freedom to do her anointing of Jesus in public. If this woman was not Mary Magdalene who followed Jesus up to the last moments of Jesus in the cross, Jesus was not what he claimed to be. He becomes rather a "Casanova-like" man and not an Orthodox Jew who could not even be approached by a woman to address herself to him. Let alone if you take the cases reported by the four gospels as four different cases. All the gospels will lose all the credibility they need as legitimate literature.

First of all, that woman wasn't specifically called a prostitute but an immoral woman. Second of all, Christians consider Jesus to be the High Priest and without sin. Thus, why I pointed out this important piece of Scripture to you:

13 He shall take a wife in her virginity. 14 A widow, or a divorced woman, or one who is profaned by harlotry, these he may not take; but rather he is to marry a virgin of his own people, Leviticus 21:13-14

This marriage of Jesus is just Da Vinci code baloney, pure speculation and media sensationalism, or is thi belief of yours taught in the Jewish Talmud?

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The four gospels are basicly the same story of Jesus , so which one would the women Mary Magdalene at the cross likey be?

Matthew 15-39 And he sent away the multitude, and took ship, and came into the coasts of Magdala.

Mary Magdalene comes down to Galilee with Jesus

Mark- Mary Magdalene- the one Jesus saved fron the seven demons

Luke -Mary Magdalene the one Jesus saved from the seven demons.

So which women would she likey be in the order of John?

John-

The wedding.

Women at the well

The women Jesus saves from stoning

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Posted (edited)

A virgin women had to stay in her father`s house until she was married, so if Jesus married a women in Cana the bride`s family would have to have been from there. Mary Magdalene was from Magdala.

Edited by docyabut2

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And where is the proof that the "woman known in the tow as a sinner" was Mary Magdalene? Mary Magdalene doesn't turn up until chapter 8, so you need to do a bit of interpolating to link her to the woman in chapter 7. Some traditions have linked the two, but it is by no means universal, and as I'm sure you know, tradition is by no means gospel (no pun intended).

Proof is not the word here but evidence. No one can provide proofs of anything in the Bible but evidences. First and foremost Jesus was a religious Jew. No woman could approach him in public to talk or ask for help. If she needed any, Jewish tradition would dictate that she was to make her request known from a few yards away and not touch or kiss him if she was not his wife. That woman was his wife not only for having breaking those cultural rules but also because the woman who did that work on Jesus is identified in John 11:1,2 as being Mary the sister of Martha and Lazarus. Now, two reasons why she was the same woman who is mentioned by Luke in 7:37 are: She could not have done so in public. And the second reason is that Mary of Betahany (sister of Martha) had two places to attend to: Her home in Bethany and her working place in Magdala. This was a busy city in the Northeast of the sea of Galilee famous for its fishing port. There Mary was a famous Courtesan and had her business to attend to. Probably that's where Jesus met her during his visits throughout Galilee. Only after they got married Bethany became a resting station for Jesus' missionary trips to and from other regions throughout Israel. Now, why "Magdalene"? Because as a result of her business in Magada the name stuck to her but as long as she was in her main home house in Bethany the business name was avoided for definitely obvious reasons.

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First of all, that woman wasn't specifically called a prostitute but an immoral woman. Second of all, Christians consider Jesus to be the High Priest and without sin. Thus, why I pointed out this important piece of Scripture to you:

13 He shall take a wife in her virginity. 14 A widow, or a divorced woman, or one who is profaned by harlotry, these he may not take; but rather he is to marry a virgin of his own people, Leviticus 21:13-14

This marriage of Jesus is just Da Vinci code baloney, pure speculation and media sensationalism, or is thi belief of yours taught in the Jewish Talmud?

The NAB version of the NT refers to that woman who anointed Jesus as a "woman of the street" known in town as a sinner. Nothing else would stick to a woman as a sinner than prostitution. And this that Christians considered Jesus to be a priest is baloney because Christians did not exist until Paul showed up in scene about 30 years after Jesus had been gone when Christians started being Christians for the first time. (Acts 11:26) And Jesus could not be a priest because Joseph his father was of the Tribe of Judah. Only the Tribe of Levi produced priests. Therefore, no usefulness for Lev.21:13,14. And for the Talmud, I would avoid it if I were you. You could find in there that the father of Jesus was Panthera the Sidonian Roman soldier who raped Mary. But you don't need to go that far. Just read John 8:41 and you will have the Jews Jesus was arguing with charging Jesus with having been born out of fornication. The NAB version says "...of elligitimate birth."

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The four gospels are basicly the same story of Jesus , so which one would the women Mary Magdalene at the cross likey be?

IMHO, they were all one and the same.

Matthew 15-39 And he sent away the multitude, and took ship, and came into the coasts of Magdala.

Probably to visit his beloved Mary.

Mary Magdalene comes down to Galilee with Jesus

After they got married she would quite often follow Jesus almost everywhere.

Mark- Mary Magdalene- the one Jesus saved fron the seven demons

To be saved from "Seven demons" is a homonymous in Hebrew for a very hard case to save one from. It depicts the struggle Jesus went through to get Mary out of her business in Magdala.

So which women would she likey be in the order of John?

They are all one and the same. Jesus could not have been that promiscuous. He needed to get married to officiate as a Rabbi.

The wedding.

For cultural reasons the name of the bride at the wedding in Cana was not mentioned. Perhaps even for preconceived notions.

Women at the well

If you are referring to the Samaritan woman, IMHO that was a parable. Jesus didn't like Samaritans. (Mat.10:5,6)

The women Jesus saves from stoning

Enogh evidences support the case as having been a parable.

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A virgin women had to stay in her father`s house until she was married, so if Jesus married a women in Cana the bride`s family would have to have been from there. Mary Magdalene was from Magdala.

No, Mary was from Bethany. She was the sister of Martha and Lazarus. (John 11:1,2) In Magdala she had her business until she got married. IMHO either Mary war orphan

or she had been rejected by her parents. More likely that her parents had been dead. Hence Mary the mother of Jesus was taking care of every thing in Cana. It was and still is very common for couples in Israel to get married at a different place other than their own birth place. My bride for instance was from Gedera, we got married in Rehovot and went to live in Ramat Gan where I bought a condor.

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Ben, if the wedding at Cana was Jesus`s, the original gospels writers would have said the wedding was his, and why mention a wedding Jesus went to in the Bible canons it was meant to be covered up .I just don`t believe there is any real evidence that Jesus was married.

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Also in Matthew, Mark and Luke all say Jesus`s family of Mother, Brothers and Sisters came to see him, nothing is mention of a wife.The only thing mention in John at that meeting was the Jews knew his parents and him as the son of Mary and Joesph.

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