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Nefer-Ankhe

What are we really doing Afghanistan?

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http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/03/04/hearts_minds_and_gunships_what_are_we_really_doing_in_Afghanistan

Civilian Casualties:

2001-2003.

Between 3,100 and 3,600 civilians were directly killed by the U.S Operation Enduring Freedom bombing and Special Forces attacks between Oct. 7 2001 and Jun. 3 2003. This however only accounts for the "impact deaths"- deaths in the immediate aftermath of an explosion or shooting- and does not count deaths that occurred later as a result of injuries sustained, or deaths that occurred as an indirect consequence of the U.S. airstrikes and invasion.

2005.

An estimated 1,700 people were killed, including civilians, insurgents and security forces members.

2006.

4,400 Afghans had been killed in 2006, more than 1,000 of them were civilians.

2007.

More than 7,700 people were killed in 2007, including: 1,019 Afghan policemen;4,478 militants; 1,980 civiliansand 232 foreign soldiers.

By this stage it is conclusive that between 5,700 and 6,500 Afghan civilians had been killed so far in war by American and NATO military forces.

2008

reported that 2,118 civilians were killed as a result of armed conflict in Afghanistan in 2008, the highest civilian death toll since the end of the initial 2001 invasion. This represents an increase of about 40 percent over UNAMA's figure of 1,523 civilians killed in 2007.

For more information on civilian casualties in 2008 alone ---> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_civilian_casualties_in_the_War_in_Afghanistan_(2008)

2009

2009 was again the most lethal year for Afghan civilians in the American-led war since the fall of the Taliban government in late 2001. , 2,412 civilians were killed by the war in 2009, a jump of 14% over the number that lost their lives in 2008. An additional 3,566 Afghan civilians were wounded as a result of the war in 2009.

For more information on civilian casualties in 2009 alone ---> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_civilian_casualties_in_the_War_in_Afghanistan_(2009)

2010

2,777 Afghan civilians were killed in the war in 2010, a jump of 15% over the civilian toll in 2009.Of these, UNAMA/AIHRC attributed 2,080 civilian deaths.

For more information on civilian casualties in 2009 alone ---> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_civilian_casualties_in_the_War_in_Afghanistan_(2010)

2011

1,462 Afghan civilians were killed in the first six months of 2011, another 15% jump over the same period in 2010.UNAMA/AIHRC attributed 1,167 (79.8%) of those deaths. For the whole year of 2011, the United Nations reported that the civilian death toll numbered 3,021, a record high. In addition, 4,507 Afghans were wounded.

For more information on civilian casualties in 2010 alone ----> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_civilian_casualties_in_the_War_in_Afghanistan_(2011)

2012

---> List of civilian casualties in the War in Afghanistan (2012)

2013

---> List of civilian casualties in the War in Afghanistan (2013)

Now all this leaves me to ask, what are we really doing in Afghanistan?

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Another one.

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Another what?

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Posted (edited)

Those generals know much more than any of us.

Besigment

It's a old tactic, check it out...even if they loose this war as such by holding on long enough the landscape around is changed.

There going to find it very difficult to operate as they were before..a whole generation has been born without the Taliban remember..

Have some faith sister!

Edited by Irrelevant

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ohh... another one of those people questioning the real attentions of the war?

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War is not fought in a day, battles can be.

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I don't see how that is relevant... Irrelevant.

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those heroin poppies dont grow themselves! plus the taliban forbid it, so it wasnt established before america arrived.

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You ask:

why there there

I've told you, besiegement

Do you think the military is a flower power movement that's going to walk in there and start giving to the Taliban carnation gift baskets?

This is a generational shift, the landscape and world has changed in this last 10 or so years..the instigators of this war proposed this at the beginning if you remember..

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Posted (edited)

I am just simply looking at this war from a different POV, and if these statistics above ^ are accurate, then why are there not more people questioning the true attentions of this war or as you prefer "continuous battles"?

Edited by Nefer-Ankhe
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those heroin poppies dont grow themselves! plus the taliban forbid it, so it wasnt established before america arrived.

Please, the Taliban have scruples!

Russians were there too.

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Yea I really wonder what will happen after the West leaves Afghanistan. The first question is whether or not whatever administration it leaves behind will be able to survive. To do that it will have to swing strongly Islamist and issue a lot of anti-American rhetoric, but all that won't matter much. The reality will be more moderate but also probably a lot more corrupt.

With a more Taliban like takeover, even if Taliban is not what they call themselves, I think a lesson will have been learned -- engage in state terrorism, but do it in unspectacular ways so the West doesn't have an excuse to go back in. In the meantime I pity the population at large and especially women.

Of course the drug business will prosper; they see it as Western rot that they can encourage, and their view here is accurate. The West's approach to drugs needs to imitate the Portuguese model and halt the puritanical punitive attitudes that motivate it today.

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I am just simply looking at this war from a different POV, and if these statistics above ^ are accurate, then why are there not more people questioning the true attentions of this war or as you prefer "continuous battles".

It's sad, I can't really be a apologist for them, I'm p***ed at the USA Army for what they did at Babylon!

However, I can see what there hoping to achieve in Afghanistan. Social Change.

Sometimes the victory in a loss is simply inspiring others who come latter so they get the victory. This is fighting,even if you loose others step up witnessing your suffering or bravery. has the USA inspired the afghan people enough is a big question. Have they made mistakes? Of course .

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With the "west" in Afghanistan, is it making the overall situation in Afghanistan better or worst?

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With the "west" in Afghanistan, is it making the overall situation in Afghanistan better or worst?

Frankly speaking, does that even need a 'debate' ?

The only reason these 'wars' are being fought is because people sitting in their 'freedom space' within four walls they call a home is worrisome that everything they call 'a way of life' would disappear if nobody was dying 'over there' to protect 'it '

Do they care about the 'people' of Afghanistan ?

The Nation of Afghanistan ?

The 'future' of Afghanistan ?

Afghanistan is just suffering from the nasty inconvenience of being at the 'cross roads' of civilization and has been suffering for ages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Afghanistan

Look at the lists and see the strange story of our predicament.

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It's hard to say Nefer-Ankhe

War is always going to be ugly.

I really respect the USA for what there doing. Very Brave! Isn't that why we love movies like Gladiator and the such? We see the bravery as inspirational, we see his struggle and so desperately want him to win because he's good. Takes on all comers but ultimately dies, we see this in brave knights,in movies like Rocky...for me I see it in Jesus.

This is same as on a battlefield, its hoped the afghan men see the bravery of these Soldiers fighting for them, taking on the Taliban,They want the Afghan men to say in there hearts " this is for my people!" They want them inspired to uprise against the Taliban and fight for freedom.

We all want to see afghan people get the victory, to be free. To see there men woman and children are no longer raped or killed by the Taliban.

Are they making the situation better? Off course! It's not there courage that's wavering, not the soldiers, it's ours. This is another Vietnam in the waiting, just bowing down to political and media pressure.

Those who don't understand the mistakes of the past are destined to repeat them.

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Looking for Unicorns?

If there was no invasion and the collapse of the Soviet Union, nothing would change only the taliban would be weaker

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Are they making the situation better? Off course! It's not there courage that's wavering, not the soldiers, it's ours.

Of course you say? Perhaps we should forget about ourselves for a second here, and think about the people who are actually within this country, living with this on a day-to-day basis.

I for one, do not think America (and the other countries) whom got involved, would have made much alteration upon these countries (especially Afghan) whether they had intervened or not. Ultimately, America will eventually retreat from Afghanistan and whether they made such a positive impact or not, only time will tell...

Hopefully all these innocent civilian lives that were lost, were not lost for pure prestige and nothingness...

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Posted (edited)

2001-2003.

Between 3,100 and 3,600 civilians were directly killed by the U.S Operation Enduring Freedom bombing and Special Forces attacks between Oct. 7 2001 and Jun. 3 2003. This however only accounts for the "impact deaths"- deaths in the immediate aftermath of an explosion or shooting- and does not count deaths that occurred later as a result of injuries sustained, or deaths that occurred as an indirect consequence of the U.S. airstrikes and invasion.

If I`m not mistaken was `t there a war already going on between the Northerrn Alliance and the Taliban before the US and Special Forces of the United Kingdom, Australia, France, Canada, and the Afghan United Front (Northern Alliance) won over the Talbiban that were haboring bin laden, You seem to only contribute the deaths to the US. Afrgan people were also fighting and killing for their freedom from the Taliban and still are.

http://en.wikipedia....(2001â€"present)

http://en.wikipedia...._of_Afghanistan

Edited by docyabut2

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The Allies have built schools and other community projects such as bridges, dug wells, they have trained a police force. Also they have democracy. These aspects are still in there infancy but they exist where once there wasn't any.

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Posted (edited)

Of course you say? Perhaps we should forget about ourselves for a second here, and think about the people who are actually within this country, living with this on a day-to-day basis.

Well I couldn't have said that better, and perhaps it should be applied to those who would rather paint a picture based on prejudice rather than being objective.

I haven't read a objective post yet, you strike me as somebody who is clever. Perhaps it's environmental that sees you take such a dim view towards the Allies effort ?

Do you really think they've done nothing?

Edited by Irrelevant

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Maybe you haven't read an objective post yet because there is no way to be objective. The world is as they say between a rock and a hard place, and no matter what it does bad things are likely to follow.

I strongly doubt the claims of all the good things the West has done, and forsee them all destroyed shortly after they leave.

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You seem to only contribute the deaths to the US.

Because I'm making a point of it... what is the justification for the statements below, if the core reason as to why these countries are in Afghanistan is to help and protect the people?

-February 12, 2010 – 5 Afghan civilians including two pregnant women and a teenage girl were killed when US special forces raided a house in Khataba village, outside the city of Gardez where dozens of people had gathered at the home to celebrate the naming of a newborn baby. The U.S troops tried to cover-up evidence of the botched raid and admitted only month later that they had killed the civilians.

-Three civilians showed up at a Kandahar hospital with gunshot wounds, claiming they had been shot at by a Canadian convoy. One of them later died of his injuries.

-Two women and two children were killed in Pakistan by cross border shelling fired by US forces in Afghanistan.

-Australian special forces soldiers killed 5 Afghan children in an attack on a compound in the Uruzgan province of southern Afghanistan.It was decided that no charges were to be brought against two Australian soldiers who killed five afghan children.

-Seven children and a young adult were killed by an ISAF airstrike in the village of Geyaba in the eastern Afghan province of Kapisa.

and many more similar, civilian deaths, many of which involve children.

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Posted (edited)

Do you really think they've done nothing?

There is no doubt in my mind that the allies have done something good for Afghanistan and their people, that is evident. However does the good really out rule the bad or vise versa?

Edited by Nefer-Ankhe
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Posted (edited)

Maybe you haven't read an objective post yet because there is no way to be objective. The world is as they say between a rock and a hard place, and no matter what it does bad things are likely to follow.

I strongly doubt the claims of all the good things the West has done, and forsee them all destroyed shortly after they leave.

Unfortunately that may happen, Vietnam was a tragic example.

However if the Taliban come back so will the Allies, as it was already stated by the 3eyed cat that we need to feel safe, we won't if Afghanistan becomes a training ground for terrorists again, and if they go back, like Iraq they will have the sack finally for a follow through and full offensive.

Vietnam never got this favour because it was not a breading ground for extremists with agenda.

Edited by Irrelevant

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