Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 1
and then

Doco Implies there was no Jewish Diaspora

37 posts in this topic

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/167593#.UX-ThbW-lIF

I'd be interested to see it. It would undermine a great portion of Christian and Jewish theology if it were proven true. But I thinkthe good folks at the BBC give not a care about proof - they just want to stir a pot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

None really, because it does not tangent any religious believes.... the only thing it undermines is the Zionist claim to Holy Land.

4 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The story of the diaspora is a solid part of Christian belief. Not Christian Zionist belief only. It's ridiculous to say it only undermines Zionism. I have no doubt that is it's intent. But even the BBC's viewers aren't dumb enough to swallow that load - yet. But as the brave souls said - "we'll air it later". Those who hate Zionism won't be affected and Zionists won't worry about it either because it is so over the top silly a claim - but that wonderful mass of low info drones will probably lap it up. After all, it's one more "proof" that the Holy scripture is nonsense, right? That mankind is doing JUST FINE. Whatever.... if it gets any more "fine" we'll destroy ourselves from off the planet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

It is well documented that the claim to be a Jewish diaspora is about as strong as those claiming to be the true descendents of the Celts. The Celts as a concept was a victorian invention of the Romantics based around a pan European culture of the late Roman period.

The critical fact about most of the Eastern European Jews and especially the core of the Zionist belief system is that they were medieval converts due to national policy;

Dhu Nuwas, attempting to achieve freedom from Christian Abyssinian rule, could not get the assistance he sought from Persia, and his Jewish kingdom did not survive. The Khazars were a Turkic people who lived between the Black and Caspian Seas in Southern Russia. Legend has it that King Bulan held a debate among speakers for Judaism, Islam, and Christianity and chose on the basis of what he heard to accept Judaism. It is more probable, however, that Jewish traders, travelers, and refugees introduced Judaism to the kingdom. Khazaria eventually fell, and some of its Jews went to Eastern Europe.

What is most important about the Khazars was their effect on medieval Jews. The rise of Christianity and Islam, following on the loss of sovereignty and the concomitant demise in any military or political power, had made Jews desperate for a theological explanation of their plight. The explanation that they would one day be justified when the messiah came and that in the meantime they would be judged by their adherence to the mitzvot [commandments] and not by temporal success had not yet fully seeped into the Jewish imagination.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/life/Life_Events/Conversion/History/Middle_Ages.shtml

I think you will find that the documentary probably draws upon the scholarly work of Shlomo Sand published The Invention of the Jewish People and the Invention of the Land of Israel;

In traditional Judaism there is no injunction to "return" to the "land of Israel". The ritual "next year in Jerusalem" that is part of the Passover Seder prayer was never a call to action, or to reconstitute a state.

By the 19th century, those who wanted Jews to "return" to the Holy Land were more likely to be Christian Zionists than Jews. Lord Shaftesbury, a compassionate Tory who contributed to improving the conditions of lunatics in asylums and children in factories (The Ten Hours Act, 1833), agitated endlessly for promoting a Jewish presence in Palestine. Sand describes him as an Anglican Theodor Herzl before Herzl; and with reason, since Shaftesbury appears to have even coined the famous line: "A country without a nation for a nation without a country." He hoped, of course, the Jews would also convert to Christianity. Lord Palmerston, on the Liberal side, warmed to the idea, not because he cared in the slightest about Jews (or Christians), but because he thought that British Jews colonising a part of the Ottoman Empire would increase British influence.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2013/apr/18/invention-land-israel-shlomo-sand

It will not be difficult to make a compelling documentary to prove these points since it is the stuff of common history.

If you build your life on legends don't be surprised when they turn out not to be true.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius
3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone set me straight on this, but I thought that what was dispersed was the religion and the culture, but because of natural interbreeding any trace of a Jewish nation or race disappeared ages ago.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone set me straight on this, but I thought that what was dispersed was the religion and the culture, but because of natural interbreeding any trace of a Jewish nation or race disappeared ages ago.

Indeed. Its a bit like the nation of Christianity.

Br Cornelius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone set me straight on this, but I thought that what was dispersed was the religion and the culture, but because of natural interbreeding any trace of a Jewish nation or race disappeared ages ago.

Actually their religion exists almost unchanged from 2,000 years ago. The culture of course is evolving but it too is very much intact considering they were dispersed to the four corners of the earth. Part of the reason they have always been so hated is that they did not assimilate well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dunno; I thought there had been numerous blood studies and that Jewish populations consistently were more like their neighbors than like each other

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually their religion exists almost unchanged from 2,000 years ago. The culture of course is evolving but it too is very much intact considering they were dispersed to the four corners of the earth. Part of the reason they have always been so hated is that they did not assimilate well.

A very dubious point since all four branches of Judism are modern creations;

In the 19th century, European Jews attempted to answer the "Jewish Question": "How do the Jews fit into the modern nation state?" Those seeking a religious solution to this problem ultimately created four new religious movements between the mid 19th-20th centuries.

http://www.patheos.com/Library/Judaism/Historical-Development/Modern-Age.html

The strongest influence of Judism is its Eastern European population base and all the baggage which came with it.

Br Cornelius

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A very dubious point since all four branches of Judism are modern creations;

http://www.patheos.c...Modern-Age.html

The strongest influence of Judism is its Eastern European population base and all the baggage which came with it.

Br Cornelius

I guess it would have to be - after all, they were the survivors. When I see people finding excuses to ridicule or fault Jews it offends me in a personal way. I think it is for the same reason that many today get angry about the way they see Palestinians being treated. It's the "under dog" syndrome. Those who say that if only the Jews had chosen another location for their homeland, things would be okay today, are ignoring the words of the Qur'an about what must happen to the Jews. For that matter they are ignoring the Bible as well. That's okay for the short run but it won't stand forever. The scripture WILL be proven out. Even if people adamantly refuse to admit it as they are dying in the throes of it's fulfillment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess it would have to be - after all, they were the survivors. When I see people finding excuses to ridicule or fault Jews it offends me in a personal way. I think it is for the same reason that many today get angry about the way they see Palestinians being treated. It's the "under dog" syndrome. Those who say that if only the Jews had chosen another location for their homeland, things would be okay today, are ignoring the words of the Qur'an about what must happen to the Jews. For that matter they are ignoring the Bible as well. That's okay for the short run but it won't stand forever. The scripture WILL be proven out. Even if people adamantly refuse to admit it as they are dying in the throes of it's fulfillment.

...oh dear, another one desperate for the Rapture, at any human cost

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is sorta offtopic and more geared towards a theological conundrum , but isn't ironic that the Jews during the time of Jesus were obsessed with a earthly Jewish Messianic kingdom and now its Christians that adhere to Christian Zionism are the ones equally obsessed with the establishment of an earthly Jewish kingdom.

Jesus prophecied the destruction of any attempts to raise a Jewish earthly kingdom and that not one stone shall stand upon another regarding Herod's Temple. That this generation (70 AD) shall not pass before all of this is fulfilled.

Bottomline: isn't it the Messiah according to most Judaic denominations that gathers them back to the Holy Land. So in other words, the Zionists (and Pharisaism aka Talmudism) have achieved the goal that Jesus said would not be achieved during His generation.

Hmm... I smell something fishy here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...oh dear, another one desperate for the Rapture, at any human cost

Nah, I'm content to wait as long as it takes. I'd say I'll be seeing you there but under the circumstances....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess it would have to be - after all, they were the survivors. When I see people finding excuses to ridicule or fault Jews it offends me in a personal way. I think it is for the same reason that many today get angry about the way they see Palestinians being treated. It's the "under dog" syndrome. Those who say that if only the Jews had chosen another location for their homeland, things would be okay today, are ignoring the words of the Qur'an about what must happen to the Jews. For that matter they are ignoring the Bible as well. That's okay for the short run but it won't stand forever. The scripture WILL be proven out. Even if people adamantly refuse to admit it as they are dying in the throes of it's fulfillment.

Unless that individual is misreading and misinterpreting the Scriptures:

36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.” John 18:36

6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; Acts 1:6-7

11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. Ephesians 2:11-16

What are you failing to understand here?

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

http://www.israelnat...93#.UX-ThbW-lIF

I'd be interested to see it. It would undermine a great portion of Christian and Jewish theology if it were proven true. But I thinkthe good folks at the BBC give not a care about proof - they just want to stir a pot.

Could you explain how exactly it is a part of Christian and Jewish theology? In which books (not necessarily from the Bible) is the Jewish diaspora of the Roman era mentioned in? What is this theology based on?

Nah, I'm content to wait as long as it takes. I'd say I'll be seeing you there but under the circumstances....

You did say it but it is doubtful you have the authority to judge or condemn anyone.

Edited by Leave Britney alone!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Could you explain how exactly it is a part of Christian and Jewish theology? In which books (not necessarily from the Bible) is the Jewish diaspora of the Roman era mentioned in? What is this theology based on?

You did say it but it is doubtful you have the authority to judge or condemn anyone.

Christ told His disciples that the temple they were so in awe of would be flattened. The prophets Daniel and Jeremiah are a couple. The dispersal of the Jews is a thread that runs throughout the books of the OT like Kings and Psalms. Christian Zionists refuse to accept the doctrine of the "church" replacing Israel as heir to the immutable promises God made to His people. Unlike humanity, when God says everlasting He actually means it. The diaspora is an expression - as has been all of His dealings with the Jew - of His desire to bless humanity but His need to discipline us first. He chose ONE family of people because one of their members BELIEVED and it was counted to him as righteousness - just as today WE can be counted righteous if we will believe in our Lord's sacrifice. Apparently our Creator craves a relationship with us and we simply want to be gods.

My comment to keithisco is not a judgement - I have no power (thank God) to judge anyone. But I have every right to be a discerning individual and when someone so completely vilifies God's people I think it safe to assume he isn't one of them himself. The cost of admission into an afterlife with our Creator is not steep - but one does have to believe He exists, that He came in the form of a man, died a sacrificial death and rose to life again the third day. This is the good news Britney. And for many millions it IS good news. Christians are about to become the ones being martyred relatively soon. Not by blowing themselves up to kill non Christians. They will be killed for not renouncing the faith. Many already are dying for it around the world. The irony is that they will die like sheep - some even forgiving their murderers as they die while they are being accused of intolerance.... intolerance. You have a nice day Britney.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Christ told His disciples that the temple they were so in awe of would be flattened. The prophets Daniel and Jeremiah are a couple. The dispersal of the Jews is a thread that runs throughout the books of the OT like Kings and Psalms. Christian Zionists refuse to accept the doctrine of the "church" replacing Israel as heir to the immutable promises God made to His people. Unlike humanity, when God says everlasting He actually means it. The diaspora is an expression - as has been all of His dealings with the Jew - of His desire to bless humanity but His need to discipline us first. He chose ONE family of people because one of their members BELIEVED and it was counted to him as righteousness - just as today WE can be counted righteous if we will believe in our Lord's sacrifice. Apparently our Creator craves a relationship with us and we simply want to be gods.

... yet what are your thoughts on these Scriptures:

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Are Christian Zionists dangerously placing the State Of Israel at the center of prophecy rather than the Lord Jesus Christ? In other words, is Jesus being replaced by the State Of Israel?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most of the state of Israel is comprised of secular Jews. Just as any other secular group, they have no use for turning their will toward the Creator. Does this make them worse human beings than the rest? Compare their culture and civilization with every other one on earth and then tell me they are so much worse as to deserve the negative, obsessive attention they receive. BJ their enemies want them ERADICATED. None left, no mercy and the world is slowly coming around to that pov as well. When this all comes to fruition, the world is going to blow up and it is going to be caused by this hatred of Israel. And the world is going to reap what t has sown.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Most of the state of Israel is comprised of secular Jews. Just as any other secular group, they have no use for turning their will toward the Creator. Does this make them worse human beings than the rest? Compare their culture and civilization with every other one on earth and then tell me they are so much worse as to deserve the negative, obsessive attention they receive. BJ their enemies want them ERADICATED. None left, no mercy and the world is slowly coming around to that pov as well. When this all comes to fruition, the world is going to blow up and it is going to be caused by this hatred of Israel. And the world is going to reap what t has sown.

Que?... Mr Zechariah 13:8!

You fanatically support Israel yet you also give your full of approval of their judgment and the eradication of 2/3s of the Jewry. Christian Zionism is just does not stand up, it is full of hypocrisy. I am reading two contradictory natures here. As Christian, I just ignore the comments in Zechariah 13:8 and focus on the human right issues and what is required to create greater peace in the region.

EDIT: If Zechariah 13:8-9 is an unfulfilled future prophecy, maybe it points to the fact that Zionism ultimately fails and fell under Divine Judgment.

Edited by B Jenkins

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Christ told His disciples that the temple they were so in awe of would be flattened. The prophets Daniel and Jeremiah are a couple. The dispersal of the Jews is a thread that runs throughout the books of the OT like Kings and Psalms.

So nothing concrete or academic just the way a few are interpreting scripture which is not necessarily how the rest of Christanity now or in the past interprets/ed it.

This theology you have described is focused on the negative and the suffering of other humans.

I wonder if you believe in the Spirit being able to speak through others in what some churches believe is the gift of prophecy. Maybe not, but when God speaks through someone, at the churches I've been to, it is never a message of politics.

Christian Zionists refuse to accept the doctrine of the "church" replacing Israel as heir to the immutable promises God made to His people. Unlike humanity, when God says everlasting He actually means it.

The only promises that apply to us are those made to the spiritual Jews. The Jews have their own covenant and are better able to interpret it for themselves without us correcting them.

The diaspora is an expression - as has been all of His dealings with the Jew - of His desire to bless humanity but His need to discipline us first. He chose ONE family of people because one of their members BELIEVED and it was counted to him as righteousness - just as today WE can be counted righteous if we will believe in our Lord's sacrifice. Apparently our Creator craves a relationship with us and we simply want to be gods.

I don't feel any love for others here. No wonder some churches spend most of their energy attacking and excluding others.

My comment to keithisco is not a judgement - I have no power (thank God) to judge anyone.

Your view judges and condemns others. God is not going to destroy someone because someone believes so and no one should insinuate God will destroy another fellow poster.

But I have every right to be a discerning individual and when someone so completely vilifies God's people I think it safe to assume he isn't one of them himself.

The spirit of discernment is a gift and not using logic of the mind. That is willful. The vanity Solomon spoke about.

You are claiming you have the spirit of discernment and that it is used to discern who will go to heaven? And using that gift online?

Such a view trivializes the faith.

The cost of admission into an afterlife with our Creator is not steep - but one does have to believe He exists, that He came in the form of a man, died a sacrificial death andd rose to life again the third day. This is the good news Britney. And for many millions it IS good news.

Your view is bad news and not the way others interpret the scriptures.

Christians are about to become the ones being martyred relatively soon. Not by blowing themselves up to kill non Christians. They will be killed for not renouncing the faith. Many already are dying for it around the world. The irony is that they will die like sheep - some even forgiving their murderers as they die while they are being accused of intolerance.... intolerance. You have a nice day Britney.

Believing that we are in danger and going to be martyred is a view that induces fear and attempts to spread fear but has none of the peace promised and that is evident when God is present is in that view.

Being personally offended when one feels other slight Jews tells that any following thought is stunted by emotion.

Your view is intolerant. It is not the type of Christianity that offers hope but is based in politics and fear.

Thank you and have a good day today too. We will disagree but while you might not see me as one of you I see the whole world as one of me including you. While you might condemn me I know I have no authority to condemn others or believe that the spirit of discernment would be a gift given to tell others online they will be on the wrong side of Jesus and insinuating Jesus will destroy them.

Edited by Leave Britney alone!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LBA you have learned a message of tolerance and confuse tolerating every thing and every one as valid. Christ never did such a thing. He said "I am the way, the truth and the life, and no man comes to the Father but through me" THAT is about as "intolerant" as one can be, no? Yet He loves us fervently, enough to even die a shameful, gruesome death in our place. You have to choose what you believe. I wish you the best, but while loving everyone is what God wants, accepting their behavior as justified is NOT. There are truths and we don't get to make them up as we choose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LBA you have learned a message of tolerance and confuse tolerating every thing and every one as valid. Christ never did such a thing. He said "I am the way, the truth and the life, and no man comes to the Father but through me" THAT is about as "intolerant" as one can be, no? Yet He loves us fervently, enough to even die a shameful, gruesome death in our place. You have to choose what you believe. I wish you the best, but while loving everyone is what God wants, accepting their behavior as justified is NOT. There are truths and we don't get to make them up as we choose.

Reality suggests otherwise, and you are a perfect example.

Br Cornelius

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your view is intolerant. It is not the type of Christianity that offers hope but is based in politics and fear.

Politics and Christianity has a long tarnished repute. It recalls a passage in which Jesus warns believers that their core values if evaluated do indeed measure up with Christ's examples and teachings.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’ Matthew 7:21-23

Whereas, Christian Zionism has substituted Jesus with the state of Israel. There is no rational objectiveness in these beliefs.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Reality suggests otherwise, and you are a perfect example.

Br Cornelius

Nice try, but I don't make up truths for anyone, simply explain what I believe. I am also honest enough to admit that I shave daily with "Hanlon's razor" :) Just because I believe a thing does not make it so and I am well aware of that but we all have to take responsibility for what we believe and I am comfortable enough with my worldview to do so. Unlike you and some others here I do not get much perturbed when someone disagrees with my outlook - they are free to believe anything they choose - but so am I. The reality is that some people MUST be confidant that what they believe is "ultimate" truth. And that is too much to expect for a rational person.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

LBA you have learned a message of tolerance and confuse tolerating every thing and every one as valid. Christ never did such a thing. He said "I am the way, the truth and the life, and no man comes to the Father but through me" THAT is about as "intolerant" as one can be, no? Yet He loves us fervently, enough to even die a shameful, gruesome death in our place. You have to choose what you believe. I wish you the best, but while loving everyone is what God wants, accepting their behavior as justified is NOT. There are truths and we don't get to make them up as we choose.

Tolerance for others has nothing to do with judgment. While we can be tolerant we are never in a position to judge the eternal fate of others.

Accepting or not accepting the behavior of others has nothing to do with their spiritual path. The latter is simply not something which we are in the position to accept or not, another's spiritual path is between them and their maker.

2 Corinthians 7

2 Do open your hearts to us again [enlarge them to take us in].

Just as we ask of this we should do the same for others.

It is clear you take responsibility for what you believe and are comfortable in your worldview but no one can encourage you to take responsibility for condemning another on this very thread or for being comfortable with that.

Edited by Leave Britney alone!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 1

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.