Crazy Creationism

[Mr Walker]

Hi, Mr. Walker,

Just to clarify, I did not state that Roosevelt sacrificed the pacific fleet, I stated that he purposefully caused Japan to attack the USA by way of an oil embargo against it. That is the point.

"There might develop from the embargoing of oil to Japan such a situation as would make it not only possible but easy to get into this war in an effective way. And if we should thus indirectly be brought in, we would avoid the criticism that we had gone in as an ally of communistic Russia"

Harold Ickes

"It is generally believed that shutting off the American supply of petroleum will lead promptly to the invasion of Netherland East Indies...it seems certain she would also include military action against the Philippine Islands, which would immediately involve us in a Pacific war."

Admiral Richmond Turner

What this means in the context it was used for, is that History as we are fed it, does not always reflect the facts.

Yes the oil embargo definitely was a major cause of the war, along with other trade sanctions on an island nation dependent on trade But that was also in response to japan's invasion, and occupation, of a fair swag of chinese territory.

I think it was a legitimate action designed to bring japan to the negotiating table; but just as japan underestimated america's resolve and response to its attack at pearl harbour, america underestimated japans wilingness to go to war to secure its trade rights. I dont think there was any conspiracy in this, any more than there was in the sad historical realities which led to the start of war with hitler a couple of years earlier. The scenario you outline IS a part of the history of world war 11 as I learned it, but not as a conspiracy merely perhaps a naturla conclusion to required acts of diplomacy by the US. I guess it depends on one's own POV as to whether america should be either an interventionist or an isolationist in world affairs.

[+Sherapy]

Belief does not determine truth Sherapy, that is a given, but myths are also not synonymous with falshood. That is the modern perspective imposing itself on the past. Myths were peoples way of passing on truth as they saw it.

As for the prefacing when learning history, I'm sorry but my knowledge of American students does not reflect that in my personal experience. That may be true on a local level and depending on the teacher, but I do not see it on a practical and national level. I have a number of friends in the USA and schools are not the same all over. maybe at certain income levels where students can go to a good school that may be true, but overall... not so much.

Now in regards to Jupiter, who is to say he is not real after all... One thing I learned in my studies of the bible, the gods are real. You don't warn people to stay away from those gods unless they are considered real and that is exactly what Yahweh does on a number of occasions.

As I prefaced a few posts ago my only intent is to offer another way to look at the study of Mythology. It seems we agree that belief doesn't equate truth.

In what context did you deal with American students?

[Jor-el]

As I prefaced a few posts ago my only intent is to offer another way to look at the study of Mythology. It seems we agree that belief doesn't equate truth.

In what context did you deal with American students?

Your intent is noted, just disagreed with.

While I was at seminary we had alot of American families stay there for a few weeks, along with a number of missionaries kids who lived here because of their parents. I had alot of intercation with them and could discern that their schooling was deficient on various levels, none of which had to do with religion.

Some were believers, others were not, some had money some didn't and were passing through on scholarships. Others were mere visitors. Since history was one of my major interests, I had alot of discussions regarding history, science as well as religion and politics.

Of the lot I was impressed with only a dozen or so American students regarding these issues, the rest looked at me as if I was from another world...

Let me put it this way, Portuguese are not spanish nor are we latinos, but they referred to us in that way without even thinking about it... They were gracious and nice, but I cannot say much for their eduction in general and Portugal is certainly not Spain...

Edited May 3, 2013 by Jor-el

[Jor-el]

Yes the oil embargo definitely was a major cause of the war, along with other trade sanctions on an island nation dependent on trade But that was also in response to japan's invasion, and occupation, of a fair swag of chinese territory.

I think it was a legitimate action designed to bring japan to the negotiating table; but just as japan underestimated america's resolve and response to its attack at pearl harbour, america underestimated japans wilingness to go to war to secure its trade rights. I dont think there was any conspiracy in this, any more than there was in the sad historical realities which led to the start of war with hitler a couple of years earlier. The scenario you outline IS a part of the history of world war 11 as I learned it, but not as a conspiracy merely perhaps a naturla conclusion to required acts of diplomacy by the US. I guess it depends on one's own POV as to whether america should be either an interventionist or an isolationist in world affairs.

Well let me put it to you that that is not what we were taught in school regarding American history and the 2nd world war... what was taught and still is, I'm sure is that the big bad Japanese went on an Empire seeking rampage, starting off by attacking the American fleet at Pearl harbour by surprise.

The slant is decidedly in favour of America as the injured part, in the story... if you take the time to look up any history books used in school, that is the story you will find, minus my adjective rich description.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Jor-el

[Quaentum]

The bible wasn't written by christians, especially the parts referring to this particular thread.

And you think that wasn't truth to them? When they tell the story, that is the exact truth they are speaking to their children, they are telling it the way the see it through their eyes, not yours. You can call those tribesmen ignorant all you want but just because you can explain the facts doesn't make their story any less true.

What is accepted as history as you call it is simply an interpretation of events according to the information available, so it cannot really be called historical, all it can claim is that it is the historians understanding of the events, it is no more likely than any other.

For example, why did Japan attack Pearl Harbour? The common "historical" interpretation is because they wanted to destroy the fleet based there so that they could invade the pacific unoposed. True, but what people don't really know is that the USA actually started that war.

http://whatreallyhap...6315/pearl.html

So, the victors do write the history books. But it doesn't mean they are "historical".

History will be kind to me for I intend to write it.”

― Winston Churchill

“History is a set of lies agreed upon.”

― Napoleon Bonaparte

“Half of writing history is hiding the truth”

― Joss Whedon

Now getting back to the issue at hand, the events in the bible are indeed historical, they are history as seen from the viewpoint of the people who wrote them. Are they factual? Well now that is altogether another question.

But it is a question that cannot be answered because of one thing, evidence. But wait, we do have evidence.... there was indeed a great flood that did indeed drown the land.

Now according to the bible the Flood was caused by rain and by the fountains of the deep being broken open. In other words something other than just rain caused the flood. The mention of the fountains of the deep being broken open indicates a cataclysm of some kind that tore the waters from their correct place.

The majority of the myths describe a torrential, long duration rainstorm, in many cases accompanied by a huge tsunami. The water is often described as hot, sometimes coming as hot ocean swells, sometimes as burning rain. The described durations of the flood storm in the various myths, when plotted, form a bell-shaped curve with the great majority clustering between four and ten days. Tsunamis are described as extending between 15 and 100 km inland. Survivors typically find refuge in places between 150 and 300 meters above sea level.

Supernatural creatures are associated with the flood storm in nearly half the cases studied. Typical are giant snakes or water serpents, giant birds, giant horned snakes, a fallen angel, a star with fiery tail, a tongue of fire, and similar elongated things in or from the sky. Looking in detail at descriptions in the mythology, particularly those of the Indian subcontinent, we see a close resemblance to the naked-eye appearance of a near-earth post-perihelion comet.

Sixteen of the myths examined describe when the flood storm occurred in terms of seasonal indicators. Fourteen myths are from Northern Hemisphere groups, and place the event in the spring. The one from the Southern Hemisphere places it in the fall, that is, spring north of the equator. Seven stories give the time in terms of lunar phase, six at the time of the full Moon, another two days later. Stories from Africa and South America say it happened at the time of a lunar eclipse, which can only occur when the Moon is full. A 4th century BC Babylonian account specifies a full Moon in late April or early May.

Chinese sources recount how the cosmic monster Gong Gong knocked over a pillar of heaven and caused flooding toward the end of the reign of Empress Nu Wa, around 2810 BC. The 3rd century BC Egyptian historian Manetho says there was an "immense disaster" (but doesn't say what kind) during the reign of the pharaoh Semerkhet, around 2800 BC. The tomb of Semerkhet's successor, Qa'a, was built of poorly dried mud bricks and timbers showing unusual decay; the following pharaohs of the second dynasty relocated the royal cemetery to higher ground. Analysis of astrological references in multiple myths from the Middle East, India and China, describing planetary conjunctions associated with the flood storm, whose actual times of occurrence can be reconstructed using contemporary astronomy software, leads one to conclude that the event happened on or about May 10, 2807 BC.

What was it that happened?

Well it seems the myths provide clues to that, too. For one thing, they report massive rain, falling for days at a time. This turns out to be exactly what can be expected if a large comet plunged into the deep ocean, it would loft nearly ten times its mass of water into the upper atmosphere, where it would spread widely and then fall, taking days to empty the skies. A large impact in the ocean would also cause gigantic tsunamis, as many of the myths report. In India, for example, Tamil myths tell of the sea rushing 100 km inland, a hundred meters deep.

Plotting the distribution of great flood myths together with specific reported phenomena like directions from which great winds blew or tsunamis came, we find that the most efficient way to account for them is by positing a very large comet impact in the central or southern Indian Ocean. This might not account very well for flood myths in the Americas, but flooding there could have resulted from partial disintegration of the incoming comet, with two or more pieces falling on different parts of the earth over a period of hours or days. Some of the myths speak of multiple events happening in close succession. But the really big impact, the most lethal of the bunch, occurred somewhere south of Madagascar.

And this particular impact crater has in fact been found. It is 30 km wide. It is 3800 meters below the surface of the ocean, and gues what it happened between 2800 B.C. and 3000 B.C. It would have caused a 2,000,000 megaton explosion and caused a number of succesive mega tsunamis that would have been over 200 meters in height. It is called the Burckle crater and It is in the Mid Indian Ocean.

It is not logical to me to use all the flood legends as evidence for a world wide flood for the following reasons.

1. The time span between the oldest and newest myths is nearly 3000 years.
   
2. Not all the myths concern global flooding (some concern the flooding of a single tribe, valley or island)
   
3. Some do not describe a flood of water (ex: one I remeber reading described a flood of beer)
   

Something else to take into account is the elevation in Africa, Europe, the Middle East and Asia. In many cases the elevations are greater than 200 m. and would stop the tsunami's once the elevation exceeded the tsunami height. This effectively eliminates most if not all of South America as well as all of North America from being affected by the tsunami's

Those two points eliminate an actual global flood.

[+Sherapy]

Your intent is noted, just disagreed with.

While I was at seminary we had alot of American families stay there for a few weeks, along with a number of missionaries kids who lived here because of their parents. I had alot of intercation with them and could discern that their schooling was deficient on various levels, none of which had to do with religion.

Some were believers, others were not, some had money some didn't and were passing through on scholarships. Others were mere visitors. Since history was one of my major interests, I had alot of discussions regarding history, science as well as religion and politics.

Of the lot I was impressed with only a dozen or so American students regarding these issues, the rest looked at me as if I was from another world...

Let me put it this way, Portuguese are not spanish nor are we latinos, but they referred to us in that way without even thinking about it... They were gracious and nice, but I cannot say much for their eduction in general and Portugal is certainly not Spain...

Oh I see, I thought perhaps you taught here in the United States, that you had first hand knowledge of the education/curriculum.

It sounds to me the flaws you were seeing was the lack of acclimation into your culture which comes via living there awhile.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Sherapy

[Jor-el]

Oh I see, I thought perhaps you taught here in the United States, that you had first hand knowledge of the education/curriculum.

It sounds to me the flaws you were seeing was the lack of acclimation into your culture which comes via living there awhile.

Oh I don't mention things like well known historical data that these people have never heard about. Well versed in American history, not so much on history anywhere else., not even general world history except as it pertains to the USA.

[Jor-el]

It is not logical to me to use all the flood legends as evidence for a world wide flood for the following reasons.

1. The time span between the oldest and newest myths is nearly 3000 years.
   
2. Not all the myths concern global flooding (some concern the flooding of a single tribe, valley or island)
   
3. Some do not describe a flood of water (ex: one I remeber reading described a flood of beer)
   

Something else to take into account is the elevation in Africa, Europe, the Middle East and Asia. In many cases the elevations are greater than 200 m. and would stop the tsunami's once the elevation exceeded the tsunami height. This effectively eliminates most if not all of South America as well as all of North America from being affected by the tsunami's

Those two points eliminate an actual global flood.

I have not taken anything into account, the information provided was taken from an indepth study of the various flood myths the world over. If memory serves, there were hundreds of myths that the investigators ran into. Whatn they looked for was common threads and themes in the descriptions of that flood, this actively reduced the number of myths to a dazen or so, which when dated give us much the same information and a date for the flood 2807 B.C. if I'm not mistaken.

The book is available online here.

As stated, the study was made by scientists, and not religious people of any religious affiliation. The conclusions they came to are not merely based on an impact crater 30 km in diameter, but also by the signs of the gigantic tsunamis these impacts caused. There were at least three, since the meteor/comet seemed to have come down in pieces.

Your objections are all well and good, but no way do they take into account mega tsunamis travelling a almost the speed of sound and hundreds if not thousands of meters high. If a normal tsunami can travel 10 km inland with a wave 8 meters high, then this kind of mega tsunami can simply travel from one side of the continent to the other. Very few places would be safe, not even the tops of mountains The wave doesn't have to be higher than a mountain to spill over it, all it needs is velocity.

And contrary to some people, I do not need to believe in a world wide flood that covered all the land at the same time, megatsunamis do exactly the same thing by creating a standing wave of water that can span continents and mountains.

And while this vid is apart of a movie, the effects it describes are quite accurate. and even fall far short of the real thing...

[Doug1029]

The real issue is the scale of the flood.

Although there was no flood that covered the entire Earth, there were major mega floods happened at the end of the last ice age.

"The Flood" is probably one that happened in the Near East about 2807 BC. That was the First Dynasty of Egypt during the reign of Semerkhet, Sixth Pharaoh. The world's first earth-fill dam collapsed: its remains are still there. The climate disturbance was world-wide. Tree rings show depressed growth in 2806, remaining that way until 2801 when they return to normal. There is some speculation that an asteroid impact in the Indian Ocean may have been the cause. Everything seems to fit with a tsunami wiping out settlements in the Tigris-Euphrates delta in that year.

Jor-el is right. The Bible is probably remembering a real-life event. It just garbled the story is all.

Doug

[Doug1029]

As stated, the study was made by scientists, and not religious people of any religious affiliation. The conclusions they came to are not merely based on an impact crater 30 km in diameter, but also by the signs of the gigantic tsunamis these impacts caused. There were at least three, since the meteor/comet seemed to have come down in pieces.

Before we start worshipping the science, let's remember that nobody has ever dated Berkel Crater, nor found the other pieces of the supposed comet, and that Abbott's theory is not generally accepted. Masse is not a scientist, but a collector of stories. The "science" behind this is more like a hypothesis than a theory. It still needs to be tested.

Doug

[Jor-el]

Before we start worshipping the science, let's remember that nobody has ever dated Berkel Crater, nor found the other pieces of the supposed comet, and that Abbott's theory is not generally accepted. Masse is not a scientist, but a collector of stories. The "science" behind this is more like a hypothesis than a theory. It still needs to be tested.

Doug

Well, all we can do is wait for the results... patiently. It is till the best explanation out there.

Personally I as a christian do not believe in a garbled account as you mentioned, I believe the story to be truthful for the most part. That a few details have been added would not be a surprise but those additions had a purpose as well. As I said earlier, the actual account has both factual and metaphorical truths that the author tried to relay to us.

What one acannot do is dismiss it has myth and therefore not historical, as I have been trying to put across, myth is not synonymous with falsehood, the ancients did not have our modernist approach of a objective and neutral approach to facts. Something that for all the modernist hype is no where near being so. We are no more objective today personally and socially than the ancients were. Everything we hear on the news is always infected with a slant, an objective, that has nothing to do with the cold facts of a story.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Jor-el

[Mr Walker]

Well let me put it to you that that is not what we were taught in school regarding American history and the 2nd world war... what was taught and still is, I'm sure is that the big bad Japanese went on an Empire seeking rampage, starting off by attacking the American fleet at Pearl harbour by surprise.

The slant is decidedly in favour of America as the injured part, in the story... if you take the time to look up any history books used in school, that is the story you will find, minus my adjective rich description.

I learned history in the 1960s and I am currently teaching world war 11 to 15/16 year olds. In both cases an historical approach was/is used. The embargoes always were a part of official histories in Australia and I've never read a book or met a teacher/student who simply thought that the japanese attacked america without any provocation. The reasons for american actions and indeed for japans earlier invasion of china are quite complex. But not conspiratorial.

One has to go back to Japanese history, from the shogunates, samurai/ daimyos, code of bushido, emperor worship, meiji restoration and ealry 20th century japanese politics , as well as have a good understanding of modern american history at that time to really apprecaite the context of the pacific war. I'm not saying that you are wrong about many people's understanding and some american history lessons. But generally it is a lack of historical learning and teaching which allows people to develop non historical ideas. Until recently history was not a compulsory subject for australian students after about age 12 and in the younger years it was taught by non histoically educated teachers. Australian teenagers stil remain somewaht ignorant of both curent world realities and past ones despite our bedst efforts.

Like you I have had a love of history all my life. I do my best to pass that on to my students sometimes with a deal of success.

Australia is an island nation and the tyranny of distance has imposed some limitations on us, but australia has always pulled above its weight in military and areas like foreign aid and development. The world has impacted on Austrlai arguably as much as on any nation over modern history despite our geographicla isolation.

We are also a multi cultural country, with perhaps the highest per capita immigrant intake in the world. Thus it is important for young australians to have a knowedge and understanding of indigenous culture/history, our own national identity, and the nature of the world from which so many of our citizens, past and present, have come.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Mr Walker

[+Sherapy]

Oh I don't mention things like well known historical data that these people have never heard about. Well versed in American history, not so much on history anywhere else., not even general world history except as it pertains to the USA.

You have a point there, World History is not as in depth as our own, it is taught though. The subject of US History has so much to it it's a full load. Unless of course one opts to take AP history, but a lot of kids do not unless they have a passion for History. It is simply too much work and not really lucrative.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Sherapy

[+Liquid Gardens]

Hi Jor-el,

They are Tolkiens and my sentiments. And why would you consider there to be an antogonistic structure between myth and materialistic progress? That is in my view a false dichotomy.

Hmmm, I thought the 'antagonism' was set out by you and Tolkien, and as always I may just be misinterpreting; emphasis mine: "Myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily toward the true harbor, whereas materialistic "progress" leads only to the abyss and the power of evil.". 'Whereas' usually denotes a contrast, in this case between 'myths' and 'materialist progress'. I'm not sure why they are placed in opposition, I'm not even sure they are in the same category in order to make a comparision, so I don't what exactly the sentence means. I'm mostly curious about where 'the abyss' and 'evil' come into play, because depending on what we mean by 'myth', that has also led us to the abyss numerous times throughout history.

We are progressing technologically, but truly I don't think that that progress is evil. It is a tool and tools can be used for good and for evil.

Well we do agree then that progress is not evil, so I'm glad that's not what the quote meant. I agree that tools can be used for good and evil; so can, and have, myths.

Myth brought desire and purpose for mankind to achieve those advancements it new existed in the domain of the gods, medicine has come about because we don't want to die, agriculture because we want to feed ourselves using the most productive means of doing so, every single human advance has a philosophical purpose behind it and those philosophical desires spur human achievement until we at last feel that we are where we want to be, but what is that place, what is that ultimate achievement?

It is to regain something that humanity inherently feels it deserves and has somehow lost, humanity has a sense of entitlement to something greater, perhaps to dominate and control, to not feel helpless in the face of fate or the gods, pehaps to be gods themselves... It all comes back to the myths that inhabit our phsyche.

As Heinlein used to say, we are not rational beings, we are rather rationalising beings. We rationalize and justify our actions, not think them out rationally. Myths are inherent in this context.

I guess I don't know enough about what is known about how 'advancements' originated and developed, but I disagree with specifically what you're talking about here. "We don't want to die" and 'we want to feed ourselves" are to me the exact opposite of 'philosophical'; I would think it better termed 'animal'. The desire and purpose for advancements along these lines would seem to have far more to do with just plain survival, at least initially, and slowly develop to encompass advancements that give us more comfort, convenience, entertainment, etc. I'm not saying that there are no advancements that are motivated by myth or religion or philosophy, there are, but a lot of them make total sense just being motivated by pragmatism.

I'm not too sure I agree that the ultimate achievement is to regain something humanity feels it deserves and has lost, I'm not sure what exactly you think we have lost. A connection to mythological wonder? To me that is dwarfed by the wonder of this universe we live in and what we know about it and can explore, but that's a subjective view obviously.

But are you limiting those myths to certain kinds of truths, like a type of Aosops' Fables? Becaue if you are, that in my opinion is artificially limiting truth to only a certain and narrow path. That is why you readily accept that literature is an adequate substitute. You are essentially leaving out the very truths that are most important, the truth that Myths have an element of fact albeit distorted. I again call upon Tolkiens analysis, in that there are myths that are True, and the biblical "myths" are amongst them.

Contrary to some apologists, I do not accept a dogmatic version of that truth in that they are specifically and literally ALL true down to the last detail, some of them certainly are, others are metaphorical in nature. I have for many yesrs tried to establish those links and have come to a sort of understanding in this respect. I believe the nature of the flood account as seen in the bible has elements of both types of truth.

Good question, but I don't think I'd phrase it as 'limiting myths to certain kind of truths', it's more like that it is those Aesop-type truths are what you can best count on being 'true' or having value from a particular myth. I agree that myths can contain elements of truth but 'myth' isn't really of much use in determining what elements may actually be literally true. Myth can be derived so many ways, and can be all true (we usually just refer to these as 'history' though), partly true, not at all true, ultimately based on a truth that has been utterly distorted by the worst way to maintain the strict accuracy of a message: oral storytelling. So I guess I don't understand why you feel that the actual literal truth component of myths is actually the most important part, especially since that part usually cannot be derived from just the myth itself. How much of Greek mythology should one think is literally true on the basis of the fact that Mt Olympus exists and there is a Greece for Hercules to tromp all over? Similarly, do you think that if we verify there was a large flood in the region where Noah lived that is the most important because it gives some significant credence to the rest of the myth?

I do not agree with you that a scientific perspective works against the myth itself, what it does is demonstrate that the myth itself is based on a truth that is central to the whole account and that is that mankind through its own nature brought these events on itself. The flood account is one of judgement against our species and what it was doing. God even in judging our species also had mercy in choosing the best of that species for survival.

The 'truth' that mankind brought these events on itself is not literally true, which is what you said is the most important part. The truth of the flood is based on the science that tells us there may have been a comet impact, and science also tells us the repercussions of such an event. And when we break it down to what we have reason to believe is literally true, the above doesn't make too much sense to me. You admit that flood was not global, thus it was not literally a judgment against our species, apparently just against the people God was angry with, because anger is consistent with perfection and ultimate love, or something. We don't know how many were actually killed by the flood and it seems the less you have the more the 'truth' in both senses of the story is deflated. For some myths, it seems maybe that attempting to actually tether it to what really happened is likely to deflate the myth; the truths within the myth of Adam and Eve changes significantly in the context of primate evolution. And I'm sorry for the snark, but this is one myth that really is a craw-sticker for me; I simply have no idea what believers think an evil god could do that would be worse than what God does in this myth if taken as literal truth, in my view it's the 'mercy' of beating a dog for misbehaving and makes even less sense.

[Jor-el]

Hi Jor-el,

Hmmm, I thought the 'antagonism' was set out by you and Tolkien, and as always I may just be misinterpreting; emphasis mine: "Myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily toward the true harbor, whereas materialistic "progress" leads only to the abyss and the power of evil.". 'Whereas' usually denotes a contrast, in this case between 'myths' and 'materialist progress'. I'm not sure why they are placed in opposition, I'm not even sure they are in the same category in order to make a comparision, so I don't what exactly the sentence means. I'm mostly curious about where 'the abyss' and 'evil' come into play, because depending on what we mean by 'myth', that has also led us to the abyss numerous times throughout history.

I have a different take on the isssue, myths were at one time our equivalent of history, it is how people connected with the past, Rome had Romulus and Remus as its founders, both of whom are demi-gods, one of the most ancient historians of human civilization, some even call him the father of History, Herodotus, in his works frequently demonstrates a view of history that combines fact and myth and both are viewed literally as actual factual events. This was the way that the ancients had for telling history, they added elements of myth to explain what they could not explain any other way, but based on factual events.

For example, meteor or comet strikes would frequently be described as battles between the gods, involving a hot blast, hurricane winds, a darkened sun, blazing thunderbolts and an Earth that catches fire - all elements put in the context of flaming, winged serpents encircling the sky and crashing to Earth, etc

http://www.astronomy...ex.php?page=124

As you say, myths do steer us toward the true harbour, but one cannot contrast this with materialistic and technological progress which we both a gree, is merely a tool at the hands of mankind.

They are placed in opposition because believers have a tendency to reject that progress as evil due not to the nature of the progress itself, but because they are more aware of human nature and its importance than others, they believe (as I do as well) that human nature will always lead us to be the worst that we can be, so if we have a technological breakthrough in some field of science, it will eventually and with certainty be used against mankind.

Take the latest breakthrough in genetic engineering, in that now we have drought resistent crops..

http://www.businessd...2y/-/index.html

and that is a good thing, right?

then we get this... http://www.mnn.com/e...-protection-act

The supreme court ruled that Monsantos product must be protected and used the following argument:

“Why in the world would anybody spend any money to try to improve the seed if as soon as they sold the first one anybody could grow more and have as many of those seeds as they want?” Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. asked.

So farmers now have to buy their seeds every year from the company, they cannot use seeds from product they have already grown. In effect componies have become the owners of the very food we eat at its most basic level. It wouldn't be a problem if the original seeds that are not genetically manipulated suddenly disappeared from the market and cannot even be bought...

http://www.techdirt....gal-seeds.shtml

http://www.escapistm...-controll-seeds

http://www.soilassoc...alqo=&tabid=390

Well we do agree then that progress is not evil, so I'm glad that's not what the quote meant. I agree that tools can be used for good and evil; so can, and have, myths.

Yes we both agree with that, again it is human nature at work, that lends direction on whether something is used for good or for evil.

I guess I don't know enough about what is known about how 'advancements' originated and developed, but I disagree with specifically what you're talking about here. "We don't want to die" and 'we want to feed ourselves" are to me the exact opposite of 'philosophical'; I would think it better termed 'animal'. The desire and purpose for advancements along these lines would seem to have far more to do with just plain survival, at least initially, and slowly develop to encompass advancements that give us more comfort, convenience, entertainment, etc. I'm not saying that there are no advancements that are motivated by myth or religion or philosophy, there are, but a lot of them make total sense just being motivated by pragmatism.

Advancements are not merely a progressive and logical sequence of one discovery causing another, the underlying basis for advancement is held within the Psyche of humanity, how it thinks, how it reacts, what it believes to be important, yes for survival but also because of humanity overall with few exceptions thinks along the same basic lines, maybe because of how our brains are configured. I believe that the underlying cause for this subconscious move in progress does not have as much with survival, but because it is inherent and part of the reson we exist. To control our environment, to be what God created us to be, his image. To be the kings of the universe surrounding us. We, even as individuals, will submit to heirarchy as long as the race itself achieves this end.

It is the reason for the tower of Babel, it was the reason of the flood, our nature speaks louder than anything else, and that has not changed in the many millenia of our existence.

http://www.henrygeorge.org/pchp41.htm

During the Medieval period, science was to a large extent based on Scholastic interpretations of Aristotle. The Renaissance of the 15th, 16th and 17th Centuries changed the mindset in Europe towards an empirical view, based on a pantheistic interpretation of Plato. This induced a revolution in curiosity about nature in general and scientific advance, which opened the gates for technical and economic advance. Furthermore, the individual potential was seen as a never-ending quest for being God-like, paving the way for a view of Man based on unlimited perfection and progress.

As is written in the book: The Renaissance Philosophy of Man (1948) by Ernst Cassirer, Paul Oskar Kristeller and John Herman Randall (eds.)

I don't have the time now to delve into this more deeply and find you more links on the subject, but we are essentially trying to get back what we lost in the "fall of man" and the destruction fo the "golden age", before the flood. Our whole culture is infused in one way or another with this purpose, even when we don't see it clearly.

"I'm not too sure I agree that the ultimate achievement is to regain something humanity feels it deserves and has lost, I'm not sure what exactly you think we have lost. A connection to mythological wonder? To me that is dwarfed by the wonder of this universe we live in and what we know about it and can explore, but that's a subjective view obviously."

I hold to the idea that ours is not the 1st human and world spanning civilization to have arisen, since our creation. As a matter of fact I believe this has happened more times than we are aware of, but that is personal take on an altogether different issue. What is apparent is that this has affected our deepest phsyche as a spiecies.

Good question, but I don't think I'd phrase it as 'limiting myths to certain kind of truths', it's more like that it is those Aesop-type truths are what you can best count on being 'true' or having value from a particular myth. I agree that myths can contain elements of truth but 'myth' isn't really of much use in determining what elements may actually be literally true. Myth can be derived so many ways, and can be all true (we usually just refer to these as 'history' though), partly true, not at all true, ultimately based on a truth that has been utterly distorted by the worst way to maintain the strict accuracy of a message: oral storytelling. So I guess I don't understand why you feel that the actual literal truth component of myths is actually the most important part, especially since that part usually cannot be derived from just the myth itself. How much of Greek mythology should one think is literally true on the basis of the fact that Mt Olympus exists and there is a Greece for Hercules to tromp all over? Similarly, do you think that if we verify there was a large flood in the region where Noah lived that is the most important because it gives some significant credence to the rest of the myth?

Myths are as good as our capacity to interpret the information hidden in them, not because the information is actually hidden but becuase the authors of those myths had no other way of expressing them at the time, they described the events using the terminology of their era, which we have to unravel with the knowledge we have today, what we cannot do is blame them for being less than clear in terms that we can understand.

The 'truth' that mankind brought these events on itself is not literally true, which is what you said is the most important part. The truth of the flood is based on the science that tells us there may have been a comet impact, and science also tells us the repercussions of such an event. And when we break it down to what we have reason to believe is literally true, the above doesn't make too much sense to me. You admit that flood was not global, thus it was not literally a judgment against our species, apparently just against the people God was angry with, because anger is consistent with perfection and ultimate love, or something. We don't know how many were actually killed by the flood and it seems the less you have the more the 'truth' in both senses of the story is deflated. For some myths, it seems maybe that attempting to actually tether it to what really happened is likely to deflate the myth; the truths within the myth of Adam and Eve changes significantly in the context of primate evolution. And I'm sorry for the snark, but this is one myth that really is a craw-sticker for me; I simply have no idea what believers think an evil god could do that would be worse than what God does in this myth if taken as literal truth, in my view it's the 'mercy' of beating a dog for misbehaving and makes even less sense.

Well I believe it to be literally true. Before there was a science with a hypothesis, there were these accounts that are now being subjected to a more detailed analysis, the nature of your argument is not based on the historicity of those myths but rather on the nature of the God who the bible and other ancient texts, say, caused them.

The very nature of the ancient texts clearly state that the gods caused the flood for one reason or another, the Gilgamesh flood myth for example tells us of an attempt by Enlil due to overpopulation (they became too noisy). Since the bible is part of the greater cosmology of the Ancient Near East, the events are linked and are essentially a recounting of the same event, so why does one say that it was overpopulation and another say that it was because humanity was becoming hybridized? (genetically tampered with)

The difference lies in that the bible demonstrates that someone was tampering with us, something that God did not appreciate.

The children of the unlawful connections before the Flood, as recorded by Moses in Genesis 6:4, who became the "mighty men which were of old, men of renown" no doubt gave rise to the countless legends of the loves of the Gods; and no doubt the subsequent repetition of the crime after the Flood reinforced these traditions.

These explain the numerous passages in the Classics, as well as in the ancient literature of other languages, in which human families are traced to a half divine origin. Doubtless many of the mighty labours accomplished by the earlier descendants of Noah, such as the pyramids of Gaza, may be considered to have sprung from reminiscences of pristine grandeur, and fragments of lore, handed down by ancestors who had lived a part of their lives in the previous age.

Thus reams of mythology have been generated which is taught in public schools to this very day. Now mythology enshrines the remembrance by man of the earliest actings and teachings of these fallen angels and their hybrid offspring of super human vitality. That came from the heaven and became gods and they were worshipped as such.

They had imparted "life" to humans, they had performed spectacular miracles, and revealed great truths, never before imagined. They had returned to the stars but not before they left a promise to come again!

The Biblical account of the judgement of these beings we call"the sons of God" is recorded in II Peter 2:4 and Jude 6, and closely parallel the Greek classics where Tartarus was a dark abode of woe, as far beneath Hades as Earth is below Heaven (Hom. I1. viii. 16), a description which fairly corresponds to Peter's "pits of darkness."

Very significant, too, is the fact that it was thought to be the prison where Zeus hurled Cronos and the rebel Titans. The mythology of the past is a startling disclosure, albeit twisted, of the uncontrolled behavior of both spirit beings and rebellious man. God had to destroy the ancient world because it had become completely unsalvageable.

Today, at this very time, we have the very same theme running through our civilization, only the characters have been renamed... now we have aliens (extra-terrestrials) who are impreganting women, who are abducting human beings, who have promised to eventually reveal themselves as the creators of humanity, the promised bringers of a golden age... the story has not changed as single bit.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Jor-el

[Render]

[KayEl]

There was no such thing as a global flood.

But given that men historically tend to settle next to bodies of water, it is thus no surprise to see flood myths as a near-universal theme.

A lot of cultures have their own variant of the vampire...but does that mean vampire really existed?

[Jor-el]

There was no such thing as a global flood.

But given that men historically tend to settle next to bodies of water, it is thus no surprise to see flood myths as a near-universal theme.

A lot of cultures have their own variant of the vampire...but does that mean vampire really existed?

I personally do not accept that as has been discussed on the previous two pages of this thread... there is more than enough evidence to consider the possibility of a global flood, just not a flood in the classical lines as read about in the bible.

[Mr Walker]

Ive just been reading fiction book which discusses polar switches where both the magnetic and phticla polar areas swap over. Thisscientifically recognised phenomenum, supposedly occurs in magnetic terms every 100000 years or so. A physical geomagnetic switch could cause huge physical disruptions to the earth A purely magnetic swithch less so but still enough to cause mass extinctions. This sort of event, along with large meteor strikes, could indeed cause world wide flooding.

[scowl]

Ive just been reading fiction book...

Do you realize that sort of undermines everything else you say?

[Jor-el]

Do you realize that sort of undermines everything else you say?

I think what he meant was that although the book was fiction it bases its science on real and determined scientific data. In other words we could call it science fiction, not fantasy, one is a story based on real science the other is pure invention, without even the science being plausible.

[Mr Walker]

Do you realize that sort of undermines everything else you say?

What a strange statement. Many fiction books base fictional stories around scientifically known facts. Lots of them provide bibliographies and details, web sites, etc of where the science can be found. The best science fiction, and indeed the best of any fiction, has a kernel of truth, around which human scenarios are constructed. I used the words

'This scientifically recognised phenomenum, supposedly occurs in magnetic terms every 100000 years or so'.

Take arthur c clarke or isaac asimovs stories from the fities for example Clarke predicted the use of geostationary satellites to provide television coverage around the world Asimov predicted the development of artificial intelligences. But it was what they DID with those scientific predictions and science which made their stories immortal classics..

Maybe you misunderstood my comment. Polar shift IS a recognised scientific fact.

Reversals are the rule, not the exception. Earth has settled in the last 20 million years into a pattern of a pole reversal about every 200,000 to 300,000 years, although it has been more than twice that long since the last reversal. A reversal happens over hundreds or thousands of years, and it is not exactly a clean back flip. Magnetic fields morph and push and pull at one another, with multiple poles emerging at odd latitudes throughout the process. Scientists estimate reversals have happened at least hundreds of times over the past three billion years. And while reversals have happened more frequently in "recent" years, when dinosaurs walked Earth a reversal was more likely to happen only about every one million years.

http://www.nasa.gov/...leReversal.html

I must admit that this was obvious to me, and perhaps i took it too much for granted. Along with a lot of other reading, I read at least one full novel from many differnt genres every day, and a total of about 10 a week (It takes me 3 to five hours to read a normal to long novel, with out resorting to speed reading..)

Edited May 10, 2013 by Mr Walker

[Jor-el]

What a strange statement. Many fiction books base fictional stories around scientifically known facts. Lots of them provide bibliographies and details, web sites, etc of where the science can be found. The best science fiction, and indeed the best of any fiction, has a kernel of truth, around which human scenarios are constructed. I used the words

'This scientifically recognised phenomenum, supposedly occurs in magnetic terms every 100000 years or so'.

Take arthur c clarke or isaac asimovs stories from the fities for example Clarke predicted the use of geostationary satellites to provide television coverage around the world Asimov predicted the development of artificial intelligences. But it was what they DID with those scientific predictions and science which made their stories immortal classics..

Maybe you misunderstood my comment. Polar shift IS a recognised scientific fact.

Reversals are the rule, not the exception. Earth has settled in the last 20 million years into a pattern of a pole reversal about every 200,000 to 300,000 years, although it has been more than twice that long since the last reversal. A reversal happens over hundreds or thousands of years, and it is not exactly a clean back flip. Magnetic fields morph and push and pull at one another, with multiple poles emerging at odd latitudes throughout the process. Scientists estimate reversals have happened at least hundreds of times over the past three billion years. And while reversals have happened more frequently in "recent" years, when dinosaurs walked Earth a reversal was more likely to happen only about every one million years.

http://www.nasa.gov/...leReversal.html

I must admit that this was obvious to me, and perhaps i took it too much for granted. Along with a lot of other reading, I read at least one full novel from many differnt genres every day, and a total of about 10 a week (It takes me 3 to five hours to read a normal to long novel, with out resorting to speed reading..)

Hmm it was obvious to me too but then again I read a lot as well, 5 books a week, I don't have the time for more.

[Mr Walker]

Hmm it was obvious to me too but then again I read a lot as well, 5 books a week, I don't have the time for more.

Working half time has helped, but on the other hand, Ive increased my hours of sleep from about 5 to 7 a night in the last couple of years as I've seemed to need more for the first time in my life.

For much of my life I only needed a few hours sleep each night and could quite easily go without any sleep for two or three nights without getting tired.

I do a lot of other things too, and each day is pretty full. but i dont waste any time at all. It is always being fully used.