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upsidedownforklift

Iraq: A Decade of Hell

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I'm not going to lie, I am terrified by things likes this. Firstly because I remember watching the build up and beginning of this War and buying it all without question and not stopping to question the media spin on it. Now looking back on it, the statistics speak for themselves:

And secondly it terrifies me that despite the truth coming to the surface people still ferociously defend it. With people still able to defend these atrocities and fall blindly for the garbage the media sells, are we still ripe for more of these wars?

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One develops a certain skepticism of films one finds on the internet after one has seen enough of them be either debunked or shown to be "selective" in its choice of facts.

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Thanks for that.

All this is well know to those who look, but its nice to put well researched figures on the facts that came to light.

The greatest war crime since the Holocaust as far as I am concerned.

Br Cornelius

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Yes, Iraq was a paradise prior to the American occupation. All was happiness, joy and light until the evil American Imperialists came to rape and steal and occupy. No one was mistreated and everyone was happy, well fed and content. Children sang songs and were never sick - until evil descended on them from the west. And Iran is next because we don't like their banking structure - or is it a pipeline? Anyway - it's CAPITALISM'S fault, no matter what....

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I plan to watch it tomorrow, thanks! :tu:

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GW Bush. Another war criminal that got away.

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One develops a certain skepticism of films one finds on the internet after one has seen enough of them be either debunked or shown to be "selective" in its choice of facts.

Sure, all the data is available in the link Sources: http://www.fdrurl.com/hell

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Yes, Iraq was a paradise prior to the American occupation. All was happiness, joy and light until the evil American Imperialists came to rape and steal and occupy. No one was mistreated and everyone was happy, well fed and content. Children sang songs and were never sick - until evil descended on them from the west. And Iran is next because we don't like their banking structure - or is it a pipeline? Anyway - it's CAPITALISM'S fault, no matter what....

A very dishonest way of sidestepping the issues. America has not made Iraq a better place, it has made it a worse place. Its really that simple.

It was up to the Iraq's to deal with Saddam Hussain - not the Bushes.

Br Cornelius

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A very dishonest way of sidestepping the issues. America has not made Iraq a better place, it has made it a worse place. Its really that simple.

It was up to the Iraq's to deal with Saddam Hussain - not the Bushes.

Br Cornelius

Not dishonest brutha - simply a frank portrait of how most of the world looks at America today. I also agree that Iraq was a mistake. But I do NOT buy into the self flagellation that some Americans endure. Saddam was evil and it is a good riddance. The mistake came in staying and trying to build a free state for people who did not yearn to BE FREE. That is not a gift anyone can give. You and many others around the world hate the US and take every opportunity to decry most of what we do as exploitation and rank subjugation of other people and their resources. You will never be convinced to the contrary. I do not accept such labels for my country and I feel America has done at least as much good in the world as damage.

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Posted (edited)

Iraq was not a mistake, as far as I can tell the mission went fairly much to plan. All the right people got contracts and made a mint. The oil was made accessable to the American nation. A regional power which was starting to get a bit to big for its boots was put back in its place and a clear message was sent to the region. Bases were established on the boarders of Iran.

Mission accomplished as far as I can tell.

The only real problem is the business model was flawed from the outset and someone didn't crunch the numbers well enough to show that the USA Government would make a profit. Plenty of people made a profit (very well connected people like Dick Cheney) but not the Government. It really begs the question where the Bushes interests really lay when they planned the affair ?

Bringing freedom to the people is a myth which is shown to be a lie when you consider that America has consistently supported the most brutal dictators across the globe, including Saddam Hussain for a long time.

Open your eyes and see the propaganda for what it is.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius
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And what was the cost to our brave and courageous servicemen and servicewomen. Here are cut and pasted portions of three important articles with links to the articles and their entirety:

The US Veterans Administration said that through the end of September 2012, 26,531 veterans were living on the street, at risk of losing their homes, staying in temporary housing or receiving federal vouchers to pay rent.

The numbers cited are only those veterans the VA is aware of. The Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) estimates that 62,619 veterans are homeless on a given night over the course of a year, and more than twice that number are at risk of homelessness.

The National Coalition for Homeless Veterans estimates that some 1.5 million veterans are at risk of homelessness due to poverty, lack of support networks and dismal, overcrowded, living conditions. Veterans are much more likely than the population at large to suffer from homelessness, comprising 23 percent of the homeless population even though only 8 percent of the population at large can claim veteran status.

Afghanistan War veterans are particularly at risk because of their young age and their exposure to combat with its psychological effects. Some seventy percent of Iraq and Afghanistan veterans had exposure to combat. About 30,700 are expected to leave the military in each of the next four years as the military reduces its ranks. About 13 percent of homeless Afghan and Iraq war veterans are women, and almost 50 percent of all homeless veterans are African American.

The increase in homelessness among younger veterans comes despite a campaign by the Veterans Administration to identify and assist veterans that has resulted in a reported overall decline in the number of homeless veterans over the past several years. About 22,000 veterans were assisted last year, still only a fraction of the total number homeless or at risk. The agency is nowhere near on target to achieve the stated goal of the Obama administration of eliminating homelessness among veterans by 2015, and the VA faces the possibility of funding cuts.

The veteran population makes up a wide range of ex-military personnel, from those who served in WWII to Afghanistan and Iraq. Vietnam and post-Vietnam veterans comprise the largest proportion of the homeless population. However, recent veterans often have severe disabilities that are correlated with homelessness.

There are many factors behind the high level of homelessness among veterans. In addition to the problems of lack of affordable housing, lack of decent paying jobs and inadequate access to health care, many veterans suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and substance abuse. Further, the training that veterans receive in the military is not always useful when it comes to seeking civilian employment.

While most programs that assist the homeless are targeted to families with children, most veterans are single adults.

The Center for American Progress reports that according to unpublished 2011 US Bureau of Labor Statistics data, 30.2 percent of veterans age 18 to 24 were unemployed, and nearly 1 in 10 with disabilities were unemployed. More than 968,000 veterans from the WWII era to the present lived had lived in poverty in the past year in 2010.

The Yale report also found that the majority of Iraq and Afghanistan veterans had been exposed to combat and had been diagnosed with PTSD, yet did not receive any Veterans Administration service connected disability payments. Of those who did receive service-related disability payments the male veterans reported receiving a paltry $641.94 a month and females just $553.86.

Sixty-three percent of male homeless veterans and 77 percent of female homeless veterans suffered from PTSD and/or a mood disorder. Of these more than 90 percent of male veterans and 75 percent of female veterans suffered from combat-related PTSD. The number of recent veterans suffering from combat-related PTSD is much higher than previous groups of veterans studied, who suffered only an 8-12 percent rate of PTSD.

Joe Leal, an Iraq war veteran and a founder of the Vet Hunters Project told NBC News, “It used to be where a homeless vet was typically about 60 years old. Now they’re 22 years old. And a lot of them are female veterans who have witnessed combat. They are coming back messed up. They are coming back homeless.”

Leal said that it was not uncommon to find Army reservists, who are still part of the military, but are homeless. “These guys show up for work looking sharp. Then they leave at the end of the day and go sleep in a Chevy.”

http://www.thesleuthjournal.com/homelessness-soars-among-us-iraq-and-afghanistan-war-veterans/

America’s newest veterans are filing for disability benefits at a historic rate, claiming to be the most medically and mentally troubled generation of former troops the nation has ever seen.

A staggering 45 percent of the 1.6 million veterans from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are now seeking compensation for injuries they say are service-related. That is more than double the estimate of 21 percent who filed such claims after the Gulf War in the early 1990s, top government officials told The Associated Press.

What’s more, these new veterans are claiming eight to nine ailments on average, and the most recent ones over the last year are claiming 11 to 14. By comparison, Vietnam veterans are currently receiving compensation for fewer than four, on average, and those from World War II and Korea, just two.

It’s unclear how much worse off these new veterans are than their predecessors. Many factors are driving the dramatic increase in claims — the weak economy, more troops surviving wounds, and more awareness of problems such as concussions and PTSD. Almost one-third have been granted disability so far.

Government officials and some veterans’ advocates say that veterans who might have been able to work with certain disabilities may be more inclined to seek benefits now because they lost jobs or can’t find any. Aggressive outreach and advocacy efforts also have brought more veterans into the system, which must evaluate each claim to see if it is war-related. Payments range from $127 a month for a 10 percent disability to $2,769 for a full one.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/newest-veterans-medically-mentally-troubled-generation-u-s-history-article-1.1085332#ixzz2S9ZY7wwt

War’s toll is one of the most underreported stories. Hundreds of thousands of combat vets won’t ever be the same again.

They come home sick. They stay that way. They’re traumatized. They’re unable to cope. Emotional damage done goes largely unrecognized. It’s an unseen wound. Many needing help don’t get it.

The emotional ordeal is overwhelming. It’s terrifying. War vets are gravely affected. PTSD causes emotional numbness. Left untreated, it worsens. Horrifying flashbacks are commonplace.

Images, sounds, smells and subconscious feelings trigger them. Emotions well up inside. They surface self-destructively. It can happen any time. Some victims recover in months. For others it’s much longer or never.

War is a destructive slippery slope. It drives victims to emotional hell. They’re sure what afflicts them. PTSD prevents normal functioning.

Victims say they’re too tired. They can’t think. They can’t function normally. Their brains are overwhelmed.

They lash out at others for no reason. They harm those they love. They can’t explain why. Diagnosing PTSD is tricky. Often it’s not done. Victims needing help don’t get it. Others get too little. There’s no cure.

Measurable physical/biological symptoms aren’t apparent. Those mentioned above are commonplace. Others include headaches, unexplained pain, inability to cope, severe anxiety, rage, and survivor guilt for those who lost buddies.

Toughing it out depends on developing coping mechanisms. It’s not easy without competent professional help. For many it involves longterm struggle. Too often it’s too much to bear.

Broken human psyches aren’t easily repaired. Shocking suicide numbers explain best.

Jobs involved in harming others cut both ways. War is hell. Who knows better than combat vets. Understated VA data say plenty. Its 2012 Suicide Data Report said about 22 vets commit suicide daily.

Double the number wouldn’t surprise. Only 16 states indicate cause of veterans’ deaths. VA uses three-year old data.

Many deaths aren’t called suicide. They slip under the radar unnoticed. Many war zone-related suicides are misreported.

Those that are outnumber combat deaths. Officials numbers reflect nearly one a day. DOD and VA officials shun publicity. Getting it harms recruiting. Unwary kids are mislead. They’re unaware what awaits them.

Many suicide victims are age 50 or older. Combat-related trauma is long-lasting. According to a Center for a New American Security(CNAS) suicide report, veterans commit suicide every 80 minutes.

The Veterans Crisis Line gets hundreds of thousands of calls. CNAS said from 2005 – 2010, “approximately one service member committed suicide every 36 hours.” Too little to late reflects DOD/VA policy.

In FY 2009, 1,868 vets made suicide attempts. Many who don’t succeed try again. Multiple war theater deployments increase the suicide incidence.

PTSD-affected service members are redeployed. Many cope with drugs and/or alcohol. Others sent on combat missions try to stay out of harm’s way. In war zones, it’s not easy.

Socio-economic conditions at home compound mental trauma. Unemployment, homelessness, and related issues affect thousands. Numbers compound annually. For many it’s too much to bear.

Since 2000, nearly a million vets were diagnosed with one or more mental health problems. The VA admits its data understate. Its own suicide hotline averages 10,000 calls a month.

More than a million vets await unaddressed disability claims. Many are PTSD-related. Months or years pass without help. They’re last in line to get. Most never do. No wonder suicides mount.

Despair holds out only for so long. Left unaddressed, it often succumbs. America treats its own with disdain.

In January, the Supreme Court turned a blind eye. It declined hearing a lawsuit. It challenging abusive VA treatment. The constitutional rights of vets with mental health disabilities were denied.

Tens of thousands of troubled vets are at risk. Expect suicides to mount. National epidemic levels are swept under the rug. Waging war comes first. Obama has lots more in mind. It’s the American way.

http://www.thesleuthjournal.com/record-numbers-of-us-military-and-veteran-suicides/

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Iraq was not a mistake, as far as I can tell the mission went fairly much to plan. All the right people got contracts and made a mint. The oil was made accessable to the American nation. A regional power which was starting to get a bit to big for its boots was put back in its place and a clear message was sent to the region. Bases were established on the boarders of Iran.

Mission accomplished as far as I can tell.

The only real problem is the business model was flawed from the outset and someone didn't crunch the numbers well enough to show that the USA Government would make a profit. Plenty of people made a profit (very well connected people like Dick Cheney) but not the Government. It really begs the question where the Bushes interests really lay when they planned the affair ?

Bringing freedom to the people is a myth which is shown to be a lie when you consider that America has consistently supported the most brutal dictators across the globe, including Saddam Hussain for a long time.

Open your eyes and see the propaganda for what it is.

Br Cornelius

I see, if it doesn't jibe with your worldview it's propaganda - pretty impressive way to avoid unpleasant ideologies and truths, what?

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Posted (edited)

I see, if it doesn't jibe with your worldview it's propaganda - pretty impressive way to avoid unpleasant ideologies and truths, what?

Please refute the points I made, please. Is not every statement I made a true reflection of what actually happened.

Are the Iraq's in a better position then they were before they were invaded. Why did 1.5million Iraq citizens, mostly civilians, have to die ??

Is "freedom" impossed at such a cost morally justifiable ?

Do you think that if I came into your house and told you how to live, "for your own good", that you would be grateful ???

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius
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Please refute the points I made, please. Is not every statement I made a true reflection of what actually happened.

Are the Iraq's in a better position then they were before they were invaded. Why did 1.5million Iraq citizens, mostly civilians, have to die ??

Is "freedom" impossed at such a cost morally justifiable ?

Do you think that if I came into your house and told you how to live, "for your own good", that you would be grateful ???

Br Cornelius

Not to mention the millions of orphans and the millions of internal displaced persons and refugees.

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Please refute the points I made, please. Is not every statement I made a true reflection of what actually happened.

Are the Iraq's in a better position then they were before they were invaded. Why did 1.5million Iraq citizens, mostly civilians, have to die ??

Is "freedom" impossed at such a cost morally justifiable ?

Do you think that if I came into your house and told you how to live, "for your own good", that you would be grateful ???

Br Cornelius

I do not blindly accept your numbers but other than that I do not dispute that both Iraq AND the US are poorer for the debacle. Frankly, I think the idea of "bringing freedom" to anyone is a fool's errand. Freedom is the hardest of all human desires to find fulfillment and it must be sought with every fiber of one's being, holding back NOTHING. It's all in or stay the hell out. I think both Iraq, Afghanistan and any future conflict should follow a simple template - if a country attacks the US or if it materially aids another entity in that attack then the full weight of US force should be brought to bear against them. The military should be released to punish them so severely that they do not repeat such an action. THEN the military needs to come home and stay until someone else feels the need to attack us. Then just repeat. No more trying to please the nations or prove we are somehow superior morally. We aren't, we have tried that route and it got us hated everywhere on the planet to one extent or another. In short, if the situation doesn't require massive force then don't act at all. But if it DOES...then no holds barred.

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I do not blindly accept your numbers but other than that I do not dispute that both Iraq AND the US are poorer for the debacle.

Cornelius B's numbers are accurate! :tu:

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How many afghanis or Iraqis were IN ON the 9/11 attack? .. which of the million plus dead were responsible?

HOGWASH

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How many afghanis or Iraqis were IN ON the 9/11 attack? .. which of the million plus dead were responsible?

HOGWASH

You want to treat an act of war by people being aided by the "government" of a sovereign state - Afghanistan - like you would a car theft? What planet are you from? The one's who were IN ON as you put it, were all dead with their victims. But they could not have done the deed without Taliban aid, hence, we bombed the CRAP out of Afghanistan. My only complaint on that issue is that once finished bombing we should have created a couple of bases for aircraft and resupply and then pulled out of the rat hole and let them continue with their tribal existence unhindered by us. Iraq just never should have happened - full stop.

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Then..... Go after those complicit , if you can find them. Bombing farmers and village elders didn't win hearts and minds. I agree with you that "Iraq" never should have 'happened'.

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Then..... Go after those complicit , if you can find them. Bombing farmers and village elders didn't win hearts and minds. I agree with you that "Iraq" never should have 'happened'.

After 9-11 I and most Americans didn't give bloody hell about their hearts and minds - we wanted their ASSES in a sling. Not very PC but I don't care.

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Posted (edited)

Invading countries and killing anyone who fights back is not an efficient means to put responsible asses in slings.

Edited by lightly
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Invading countries and killing anyone who fights back is not an efficient means to put responsible asses in slings.

Living where you do, I assume you are a US citizen so I ask you - IF the Shanksville plane had found it's target - the White House or Capitol building, what would you have wanted the response to be? It's easy to be cold and rational a decade out but it was different in the moment. There were people calling for nukes to be used for heaven's sake. Bush even raised the spectator that they MIGHT be used if needed. And if we are to be held hostage to finding "criminal responsible parties" in this new kind of warfare, then we never had a chance to win at all. I do not accept that idea.

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The world is vastly better off without Saddam Hussein. I guess a lot happens in this world that is easy for those with an agenda to criticize, and I have no particular need to defend US actions. We do need some sort of organized world police that stops countries from doing horrors in their own country and threatening or invading their neighbors, and Iraq was getting off scot free for what it did to Kuwait. That America ended up doing it is too bad but world politics kinda left on options.

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Posted (edited)

Living where you do, I assume you are a US citizen so I ask you - IF the Shanksville plane had found it's target - the White House or Capitol building, what would you have wanted the response to be? It's easy to be cold and rational a decade out but it was different in the moment. There were people calling for nukes to be used for heaven's sake. Bush even raised the spectator that they MIGHT be used if needed. And if we are to be held hostage to finding "criminal responsible parties" in this new kind of warfare, then we never had a chance to win at all. I do not accept that idea.

Hi and then, to be honest, I don't know. But I think that killing individuals not responsible will not help the situation?

The white house or capital building and the lives therein are of no more value than your house or an Iraqi family's house. Killing innocent people is wrong.. PERIOD•

* if this country was invaded and occupied, militarily, would you shoot at the invaders??????????? If you did, would you consider yourself GUILTY or INNOCENT ?

Edited by lightly
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The war on Iraq was planned years before the 911 attack. There was no connection between 911 and Iraq. There was no threat to American assetts from Iraq.

Andthen, your position is based upon lies which you have accepted wholesale.

Br Cornelius

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