Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
buckskin scout

Christian Zionism

34 posts in this topic

MYTH: The Palestinians have rejected many "Generous" Peace offers.

This is a commonly used myth, in which the Palestinians are portrayed as a violent people, with no desire for peace. Why wouldn't the Palestinians want peace? They are under a brutal occupation, their homes are destroyed, they have no economy, and they are subject to continuous conflict. The Palestinians have suffered much more than the Israelis in this decades long conflict, and they have much more to gain from peace.

Supporters of Israel often point to the Palestinian rejection of the 2000 Camp David peace conference as a validation of this myth. The Israeli offer for peace is often portrayed as generous, and that Palestinians rejected it because they do not want peace. This is entirely false. The peace offer was far from generous. It would not constitute a viable Palestinian state. These are some issues with the so called "generous" offer.

Israel would have full sovereignty of Jerusalem

Israel would maintain fortified settlements, and Israeli only roads in the occupied west bank

Palestinians would have no control of their airspace.

Palestinians would have control of only 73% of the occupied west bank

Israel would maintain control of all borders

The northern and southern parts of the west bank would be separated, and the road connection could be closed by Israel at its own discretion

Palestine would have limited control of water resources

Israel would place early warning systems within Palestinian territory

Israel reserved the right to conduct military operations within the Palestinian state

The Palestinian state would be entirely demilitarized

Palestinian refugees would have no right of return

As is evident, this offer was far from "generous". It would simply constitute a situation that is very similar to what is happening now, except it would be Internationally be recognized as a state. Palestinians would have to entirely relinquish Jerusalem as their capital. They would have no way of defending themselves from Israeli incursions, no control over their borders, airspace, or water. This, in no way constitutes a sovereign, viable, free, Palestinian state.

The myth that Palestinians reject peace is categorically false. Palestinians desire peace, however, they will not give up their rights, and territories, which are confirmed under International law. If anything, Israel has no desire for peace.

http://www.peaceandp...com/nopeacemyth

Does Israel want Peace?

Over 60 years have passed since the establishment of the Israeli nation. Peace has been difficult to come by. The Israeli's consistently blame the Palestinians for rejecting multiple peace offers. However, these "Peace" offers are shockingly one sided, and in no way offer a free, sovereign, and viable Palestinian state. This is discussed in the Myths section.

Greater Israel

In fact, it is true that the opposite is true, and that Israel does not seek peace. This is not necessarily true for Israeli civilians, but rather the Israeli government. Firstly, to many radical Israelis, there is a dream of establishing a greater Israeli nation. The bible refers to the Israeli nation as the land spanning from the Nile to the Euphrates. This therefore, would incorporate larges areas of land from Israelis neighbors. To many radical Jews, this is the ultimate dream of Israel. Whilst this may not be the ultimate aim of the Israeli government, it must seek to appease these constituents, and as such, peace with the Palestinians, and Arab neighbors would be seen as an abandonment of this dream.

The Israeli Military Machine

Besides the dream of "Greater Israel", the Israeli military machine, comprised of one of the most advanced militaries is another reason. Israel currently has the highest per capita military spending in the world. Israel not only has one of the most advanced militaries in the world, this is also accompanied by one of the largest military industries in the world. As a major exporter of military equipment worldwide, peace would only hinder the industry, whose primary customer is the Israeli "Defense" forces. Should there be peace, one would expect that orders from the IDF would be reduced. The industry also benefits from conflict, with Israeli military products are often labeled as "combat proven".

With this industry exporting over $4.4 billion worth of military products in 2006, it is apparent that this is a crucial industry for the the nation. Interestingly, the entire GDP of the West Bank is only about $6.6 billion. With 25% of the industries production being directed at the IDF, it is apparent that peace, which would lead to reduced military orders from the IDF will result in major shortfalls for this industry, which is comprised of well over 150 firms, employing thousands of Israelis. Peace would also result in the loss of Israel's unique in house testing capabilities, the Palestinian population.

Additionally, large sums of US military aid to Israel will likely decline if peace is established between Israel, the Palestinians, and Arab neighbors. With over $3billion in military aid annually, this would be a major loss for the Israeli economy.

For the Israeli government, the choice between peace, and conflict is a rather easy one. Peace would mean that no more Israelis would die in conflict, however, this would be at the cost of a multi-billion dollar industry, employing thousands.

If Israel however, chooses to avoid peace, and continue to support its military industry, then its economy will remain stable. This is the current situation. This is off course at the cost of human life. From an Israeli Government perspective, this loss of life is insignificant. In 2006, the Israel-Lebanon war resulted in the death of about 150 Israelis, primarily soldiers. In the same year, over 460 Israelis were killed in car accidents. In the 2008 Gaza war, 13 Israeli (10 soldiers, 3 civilians) were killed as a result of the conflict.

For Israel, the death of a handful civilians is not as important as a multi-billion dollar industry, and off course, the deaths of hundreds of Palestinian civilians is not even worth considering, after all, this only proves that the industry is providing effective products.

http://www.peaceandp...pic/israelpeace

This is just propaganda and quite obviously so. For BOTH sides there cannot be peace without security. Isreal is no threat to palestinians or its neighbours, but they are a real and constant threat to israel and the jewish peole and have been from before israel delcared its existence. This is evidenced by factual history not propaganda. Nothing has changed about the verbal threats and physicla violence initiated by arab states and palestinian terorists. The palestinians will be refugees for a hundred years if they think the way to an independent state is through war and terror.

The futility of this is made symbolically clear every time you see some young palestinian boy with a slingshot trying to take on an isralei soldier with an automatic rifle. It is only the forbearance, discipline and tolerance, of the soldier which mostly stops the child from being killed. His resistance is both futile and stupid as well as non productive and dangerous for himselfand for others around him.

It is about machismo and peer group pressure more than anything else, and public relations. Some palestinian leaders encourage those children to risk their lives, for nothing more than a photo opportunity to win sympathy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

The America freeloading Israel represents an oppressive colonialist, expansionist, and supremacist state with only Jewish interests that plays the aggressor-victimhood card with disingenuous brilliance through media propaganda and an almighty lobby to the unaware and the sleeping masses. There is nearly 2 million Gazans living in an open air prison. There is about 2.5 million Palestinians living under occupation in the West Bank. There is 5 million Palestinian refugees worldwide. I simply don't support Israel until it changes all of its discriminatory policies and makes concessions to vastly improve the lives of Palestinians. Palestinians deserve their freedoms and their right to a self-determining state of their own. What do you feel about that?

I feel you still haven't answered my question. My answer is that both israel and the palestinians require independent secure states and that only this solution will be workable so it MUST be fairly negotiated and secured with military security for both sides.

isreal is not going to, never will, and should not be asked to, allow palestinians into its borders in numbers and under conditions which would pose a threat to the existence of israel. Thats just stupid thinking which cannot contribute to a solution.

. Your emotive and biased language betrays that you feel, more than think, about this issue. It is like something from 1984. and it makes it imposible to discuss this issue rationally with you. I cant talk rationally with a person who is thinking and speaking in words like you are using here, (which i have highlighted) If it wasnt so tragic, it would be hilarious.

Edited by Mr Walker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is just propaganda and quite obviously so. For BOTH sides there cannot be peace without security. Isreal is no threat to palestinians or its neighbours, but they are a real and constant threat to israel and the jewish peole and have been from before israel delcared its existence. This is evidenced by factual history not propaganda. Nothing has changed about the verbal threats and physicla violence initiated by arab states and palestinian terorists. The palestinians will be refugees for a hundred years if they think the way to an independent state is through war and terror.

Israel is always a constant threat to the Palestinians, but you obviously completely oblivious to living conditions in Gaza and the West Bank. That is factual history. Fact, the Palestinians have no standing army, they have no tanks or armor, they have no air force and warplanes, they have no navy and ships. Yes, there is terrorism and some will never acknowledge Israel as a state. What is terrorism to us, is resistance to them.

Israel is the 5th largest military power in the world.

Israel is the 5th largest nuclear power in the world.

The futility of this is made symbolically clear every time you see some young palestinian boy with a slingshot trying to take on an isralei soldier with an automatic rifle. It is only the forbearance, discipline and tolerance, of the soldier which mostly stops the child from being killed. His resistance is both futile and stupid as well as non productive and dangerous for himselfand for others around him.

It is about machismo and peer group pressure more than anything else, and public relations. Some palestinian leaders encourage those children to risk their lives, for nothing more than a photo opportunity to win sympathy

What an infantile way to look at this, Israel has a history of violently opposing peaceful protest in the West Bank. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel you still haven't answered my question. My answer is that both israel and the palestinians require independent secure states and that only this solution will be workable so it MUST be fairly negotiated and secured with military security for both sides.

isreal is not going to, never will, and should not be asked to, allow palestinians into its borders in numbers and under conditions which would pose a threat to the existence of israel. Thats just stupid thinking which cannot contribute to a solution.

. Your emotive and biased language betrays that you feel, more than think, about this issue. It is like something from 1984. and it makes it imposible to discuss this issue rationally with you. I cant talk rationally with a person who is thinking and speaking in words like you are using here, (which i have highlighted) If it wasnt so tragic, it would be hilarious.

No, I felt it was an appropriate analogy, how people can't criticize Israel and its occupation and its policies without some numbskull blurting "ANTI-SEMITE! ANTI-SEMITE!"

People can criticize America, people can criticize Britain, people can criticize France, etc. But when it comes to Israel... there is a sickness in many people.

Like it is a .... thought crime!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Israel is always a constant threat to the Palestinians, but you obviously completely oblivious to living conditions in Gaza and the West Bank. That is factual history. Fact, the Palestinians have no standing army, they have no tanks or armor, they have no air force and warplanes, they have no navy and ships. Yes, there is terrorism and some will never acknowledge Israel as a state. What is terrorism to us, is resistance to them.

Israel is the 5th largest military power in the world.

Israel is the 5th largest nuclear power in the world.

What an infantile way to look at this, Israel has a history of violently opposing peaceful protest in the West Bank. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

The photos/images I see on the news are not of peaceful protest. Unless you call kids armed with slingshots and molotov cocktails, peaceful protestors. But then i suppose you feel the world press is zionist controlled? LOL

On the other hand, it is true that a peaceful protest would not make world headlines, and thus I would never see it.

Perhaps that is why PEACEFUL protests are rare. :devil: Iam fully aware of the living conditions, both of palestinians in Israel and in the huge camps in jordan and elsewhere. What we disagree on is WHY those camps exist and WHAT can be done to give palestinians land and peace.

Apart from jordan no arab state has offered to incorporate palestinians (even those born within their borders) into their own state or give them status. There are a number of arguments why this is so, but the conditons of those in refugee camps, especially, could be greatly alleviated without an immediate return to their home territories. Some have lived there for three generations and have no legal status at all. It is tragic to realise that they are likely to be there for another 60 years, and three generations, if arabs rely on military means to regain their territory.

Edited by Mr Walker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, I felt it was an appropriate analogy, how people can't criticize Israel and its occupation and its policies without some numbskull blurting "ANTI-SEMITE! ANTI-SEMITE!"

People can criticize America, people can criticize Britain, people can criticize France, etc. But when it comes to Israel... there is a sickness in many people.

Like it is a .... thought crime!

Indeed, anti semitisim, like racism is a thought crime against humanity. It often leads to physicala crimes against humanity I dont know if you are at heart anti semitic or just a palestinian sympathiser.(and i dont mean that in a negative way. I also sympathise with the plight of the palestinian peole)

Only you truly know the basic motivation for your thoughts and deeds. Some people who are opposed to israel are NOT anti semitic, but a great many are As stated before that includes many arabs and also many christians They my justify their anti semitics in various ways but it is there in their hearts. It is inculcated in them by social and personal conditioning from birth, and has existed for centuries.

If you want to criticise Israel be truthful logical and unemotional in your criticism.

There are plenty of things to criticise legitimately Israel for, as there are things we can criticise any country, including my own, for..

But israel is in a unique position.

Apart from a few mad (or very politically cluey) arab leaders, who spout about destroying the great satan(america) no one speaks of destroying the other states you mention. Yet over modern history until the present day, the common mantra of leaders (and hence of their oppressed people's) within arab states has been the destruction of israel (and her people)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Christian Zionism

This author cannot write what everyone else thinks and feels, only what this author thinks and feels. It is getting very difficult to find any real people, real places, or real online areas to discuss freely what one thinks and feels. The templates have already been set, the narratives already written, and the judgment already passed to the topic at hand. The reasoning for Christian Zionists ranges from “backwards people wanting to hasten the end of the world” to “evil warmongers”. Like all knee jerk reactions these miss the mark, exaggerate and inflame the debate, and are totally un-true. Most Christian Zionists support Israel because they believe in a spiritual connection between the Jewish people and the God of Abraham and Moses. Though the Bible accurately predicts that people who honestly do God’s will are almost certainly to be despised for it. Other Christians do see an opportunity to spread their brand of religion; in this they are no different than any other religion. However why this author supports Israel has many reasons.

First and foremost, Israel has a right to exist. History is replete with examples of how Jewish people are treated when they have nowhere else to fall back to. The world hating Israel incessantly at the UN only proves this point more and more. Israel has a special relationship with God. Israel is not merely a recipient of miracles; they are a people who work tirelessly to make miraculous things happen. Israel was a tiny speck of land in 1948. Their enemies did not hate them over “stolen” land, or the 1967 war. Israel’s enemies then hated them for the reasons why they always have hated them and still to this day hate them. Israel is a besieged nation, attacked on all fronts. The intellectual arguments in support of murderers of women and children are astonishing. The moral relativism is astounding. People line up today to justify a hatred that most of them honestly do not even comprehend. The moral gulf between Israel and her enemies is deeper than the Pacific Ocean and contains more space than our solar system. Israel always rushes to help countries in distress, even its enemies, who then go on to proclaim their citizens would rather die than be saved by a Jew. Learned people in the west then lean on Israel to make peace with these people by giving in to their demands with no assurance their people are going to be safe? This is nothing but madness run amok. You people who claim to be Christians and then go on to slander everyone you disagree with and help murderers justify hatred of Israel are walking a very fine line. Our support for Israel is born out of an honest real world need. The refugees, who were tossed out of Jordan mostly by the way, have over two dozen Islamic paradises they can immigrate to, yet are stuffed in to Israel, why? All so that people like liberal western self-haters can point a finger to a victim and use that as intellectual cannon fodder for their own Jew bashing intellectual circle jerks. Throughout history people of the Jewish faith have often suffered persecution, mostly alone, and sometimes at the hands of people who exposed Christian beliefs. Why should a people who have done so little to anyone have to suffer so much? Why does the world with almost 200 countries spend most of its time condemning the only Democracy in the Middle East? What is more astounding is that modern self-exposed Christians often are not satisfied with just doing their usual Israel bashing, but have to go out of their way to slander anyone and everyone who would even lift a voice of support. These people know they are morally bankrupt, ethically dishonest, and intellectually dishonest. No, Christian Zionists do not have to defend themselves from the hypocrisy of established groups. Take a good long look in the mirror. Appeasing the murderous masses will not buy your freedom the people who behead you for the crime of being Jewish or pro-Israel

This author does not seek to convert people to his religion, this is not his job. When most the world sits in condemnation of Israel and its people, consigning them to a fate of death by their enemies, the Israelis are no longer alone in the world. There are people who argue on their behalf, people who would help Jewish refugees immigrate to Israel, and people who honestly care about their wellbeing. If any organized religious group has a problem with this, then take a number and get in the back of a very long line, you are not first. Israel is not a place where God bestows miracles to his people. Israel is a “place” where people make miracles happen, in so doing they prove the Bible to be accurate and correct in its predictions of prophecies. Jesus said the world would hate you if you follow me, so he honestly called out most the haters today, 2000 years ago.

War and misery are never actively sought out by people of conscience; they are avoided at all costs. The real war mongers are the people who support terrorist actions, condoning their practices, and blindly believing all the lies spewed at them. People often make woefully ignorant statements about history. The most often repeated lie is that there were no Jews in “Palestine” before 1948, and some people go even further and claim there never were any Jewish people in that land ever. From these kinds of “facts” armchair generals, and back seat geopolitical thinkers, come up with some of the most astoundingly uneducated opinions and positions possible. Murdering women and children should not be enabled or facilitated by anyone against anyone. However western liberal self-hating individuals ignore thousands of rockets fired in to Israel and then “gets out their soap box” when after 8 thousand attacks Israel finally, and rightfully, responds, in self-defense. Believing that people have a right to protect their families is war mongering?

I support Israel, not because a book says to, but because it is the right thing to do. I furthermore support Israel’s right to self-defense. When every other nation is forced to give land back taken after a war then we can talk about Israel giving land back. My family has always supported the Jewish people and Israel. My family always will, and so will my children and their children. We are here whether or not people who claim to be Christians like it or not. From where in the Bible is the command to slander people for political differences implied? Instead of hiding your political preferences behind your religious books, you should just say and state your position yourself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Indeed, anti semitisim, like racism is a thought crime against humanity. It often leads to physicala crimes against humanity I dont know if you are at heart anti semitic or just a palestinian sympathiser.(and i dont mean that in a negative way. I also sympathise with the plight of the palestinian peole)

Only you truly know the basic motivation for your thoughts and deeds. Some people who are opposed to israel are NOT anti semitic, but a great many are As stated before that includes many arabs and also many christians They my justify their anti semitics in various ways but it is there in their hearts. It is inculcated in them by social and personal conditioning from birth, and has existed for centuries.

If you want to criticise Israel be truthful logical and unemotional in your criticism.

There are plenty of things to criticise legitimately Israel for, as there are things we can criticise any country, including my own, for..

But israel is in a unique position.

Apart from a few mad (or very politically cluey) arab leaders, who spout about destroying the great satan(america) no one speaks of destroying the other states you mention. Yet over modern history until the present day, the common mantra of leaders (and hence of their oppressed people's) within arab states has been the destruction of israel (and her people)

Yes and the people alive today who are honestly the children of the people who attemppted to genocide Jews during WWII jump on the banwagon today to intellectually justify the actions of radical islamic terrorists the world over. When 190 countries in the world come together to criticize the only Democracy in the Middle East like 80 percent of the time, its not just about policies. This much is blatantly obvious.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Christian Zionism

This author cannot write what everyone else thinks and feels, only what this author thinks and feels. It is getting very difficult to find any real people, real places, or real online areas to discuss freely what one thinks and feels. The templates have already been set, the narratives already written, and the judgment already passed to the topic at hand. The reasoning for Christian Zionists ranges from “backwards people wanting to hasten the end of the world” to “evil warmongers”. Like all knee jerk reactions these miss the mark, exaggerate and inflame the debate, and are totally un-true. Most Christian Zionists support Israel because they believe in a spiritual connection between the Jewish people and the God of Abraham and Moses. Though the Bible accurately predicts that people who honestly do God’s will are almost certainly to be despised for it. Other Christians do see an opportunity to spread their brand of religion; in this they are no different than any other religion. However why this author supports Israel has many reasons.

First and foremost, Israel has a right to exist. History is replete with examples of how Jewish people are treated when they have nowhere else to fall back to. The world hating Israel incessantly at the UN only proves this point more and more. Israel has a special relationship with God. Israel is not merely a recipient of miracles; they are a people who work tirelessly to make miraculous things happen. Israel was a tiny speck of land in 1948. Their enemies did not hate them over “stolen” land, or the 1967 war. Israel’s enemies then hated them for the reasons why they always have hated them and still to this day hate them. Israel is a besieged nation, attacked on all fronts. The intellectual arguments in support of murderers of women and children are astonishing. The moral relativism is astounding. People line up today to justify a hatred that most of them honestly do not even comprehend. The moral gulf between Israel and her enemies is deeper than the Pacific Ocean and contains more space than our solar system. Israel always rushes to help countries in distress, even its enemies, who then go on to proclaim their citizens would rather die than be saved by a Jew. Learned people in the west then lean on Israel to make peace with these people by giving in to their demands with no assurance their people are going to be safe? This is nothing but madness run amok. You people who claim to be Christians and then go on to slander everyone you disagree with and help murderers justify hatred of Israel are walking a very fine line. Our support for Israel is born out of an honest real world need. The refugees, who were tossed out of Jordan mostly by the way, have over two dozen Islamic paradises they can immigrate to, yet are stuffed in to Israel, why? All so that people like liberal western self-haters can point a finger to a victim and use that as intellectual cannon fodder for their own Jew bashing intellectual circle jerks. Throughout history people of the Jewish faith have often suffered persecution, mostly alone, and sometimes at the hands of people who exposed Christian beliefs. Why should a people who have done so little to anyone have to suffer so much? Why does the world with almost 200 countries spend most of its time condemning the only Democracy in the Middle East? What is more astounding is that modern self-exposed Christians often are not satisfied with just doing their usual Israel bashing, but have to go out of their way to slander anyone and everyone who would even lift a voice of support. These people know they are morally bankrupt, ethically dishonest, and intellectually dishonest. No, Christian Zionists do not have to defend themselves from the hypocrisy of established groups. Take a good long look in the mirror. Appeasing the murderous masses will not buy your freedom the people who behead you for the crime of being Jewish or pro-Israel

This author does not seek to convert people to his religion, this is not his job. When most the world sits in condemnation of Israel and its people, consigning them to a fate of death by their enemies, the Israelis are no longer alone in the world. There are people who argue on their behalf, people who would help Jewish refugees immigrate to Israel, and people who honestly care about their wellbeing. If any organized religious group has a problem with this, then take a number and get in the back of a very long line, you are not first. Israel is not a place where God bestows miracles to his people. Israel is a “place” where people make miracles happen, in so doing they prove the Bible to be accurate and correct in its predictions of prophecies. Jesus said the world would hate you if you follow me, so he honestly called out most the haters today, 2000 years ago.

War and misery are never actively sought out by people of conscience; they are avoided at all costs. The real war mongers are the people who support terrorist actions, condoning their practices, and blindly believing all the lies spewed at them. People often make woefully ignorant statements about history. The most often repeated lie is that there were no Jews in “Palestine” before 1948, and some people go even further and claim there never were any Jewish people in that land ever. From these kinds of “facts” armchair generals, and back seat geopolitical thinkers, come up with some of the most astoundingly uneducated opinions and positions possible. Murdering women and children should not be enabled or facilitated by anyone against anyone. However western liberal self-hating individuals ignore thousands of rockets fired in to Israel and then “gets out their soap box” when after 8 thousand attacks Israel finally, and rightfully, responds, in self-defense. Believing that people have a right to protect their families is war mongering?

I support Israel, not because a book says to, but because it is the right thing to do. I furthermore support Israel’s right to self-defense. When every other nation is forced to give land back taken after a war then we can talk about Israel giving land back. My family has always supported the Jewish people and Israel. My family always will, and so will my children and their children. We are here whether or not people who claim to be Christians like it or not. From where in the Bible is the command to slander people for political differences implied? Instead of hiding your political preferences behind your religious books, you should just say and state your position yourself.

Such a backwards stance:

God fulfilled all of his Land Promises to the Jewish people already.

Genesis 15:18 is confirmed --> Read 2 Samuel 8:3, 1 Kings 4:21, 2 Chronicles 9:26

Also read Joshua 21:43-45, 23:14-15, Joshua 24:28, Nehemiah 9:8, Jeremiah 11:5 where it is confirmed God fulfilled all of his Land Promises to the Israelites.

Please note here, Deuteronomy 19:7-9 is cofirmed --> Joshua 20:7-9

God promised to regather the Jews for a second time Isaiah 11:11 and it was confirmed in 536 BCE with the end of the Babylonian Exile (Ezra). Verse 16 speaks about the first regathering of the Jews from diaspora that being Moses (Exodus).

All this tossing around "antisemitism" when one criticizes the actions, policies, and laws of the State Of Israel recalls Orwell's 1984 and the story's "thought police" and "thought crimes".

It is ridiculous.

A third time was never promised for the Jews in the Bible.

Edited by B Jenkins

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.