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Irrelevant

how the spirit world world really works!

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Nobody alive on this planet can tell you how the spirit world works. Some may tell you they have the answers or are "enlightened" but the truth is, you aren't going to know until you are dead. Personally, even though I won't have and will never have scratched the surface, I base my expectations and vision of the afterlife based on my own experiences and not religious texts.

Epic post heaven. I don't know if their is a god or not, But I know this, no one in this world has the answers and anyone who claims to have them is deluded, lying, or stupid. The only truth we have is our own experience and the experiences of others. Yet even that can not be trusted fully. In the end we must simply be humble with our small place in the universe and struggle to manage as best we can. Thats all we can do.
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:tsu: As do I. Personally I think that anyone who claims to be enlightened most certainly is not.

Ah so there are no enlightened people on earth lol.

Ps There probably IS no conscious awareness after our death. Even if our consciousness lives on in a storage form, it is not growing, developing, or able to change.

A living conciousness can interact with it, but it cannot move out of its "storage space." The only time we are going to be aware of, and conscious of, the spirit world, is while we are alive to BE aware and conscious. Awareness and consciousness are properties of life, not death. Once a human being is dead, their experience is precisely as it was before they were conceived.

That is, non existent They dont exist and they are unaware of any existence. BUT in my experince they exist as a type of stored holographic projection or memory form in a larger consciousness, and we, as conscious living beings, can interact with that memory or projection of their past consciousness and learn from it as we would from a film of their life.

The universe stores all our past consciousnesses, but i do not see any evidence, yet, of it restoring them to self aware consciousness capable of ongoing interaction with the universe.

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:tsu: As do I. Personally I think that anyone who claims to be enlightened most certainly is not.

I've known a number of "old souls" in various monasteries who openly and even laughingly say they are enlightened. I've never been sure quite what to make of it: they are smart and sane and well informed about the world and wise enough to stay away from trying to define it, but I think they probably are, or at least are genuine in their opinion that they are.

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The idea that the universe somewhere, through some non-physical mechanism, stores our memories and identities is kinda necessary for the traditional Buddhist "enlightenment" into full Buddhahood (as opposed to the "enlightenment" of someone who has learned full mindfulness that I talked about in the above paragraph) is hard to swallow. This is a state where one has full memory in detail of all past lives.

The thing is what we use for memory is stored somehow chemically in brain tissue, and therefore often lost (we forget things), has to be accessed, and can be destroyed by disease and certainly is destroyed by death.

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The idea that the universe somewhere, through some non-physical mechanism, stores our memories and identities is kinda necessary for the traditional Buddhist "enlightenment" into full Buddhahood (as opposed to the "enlightenment" of someone who has learned full mindfulness that I talked about in the above paragraph) is hard to swallow. This is a state where one has full memory in detail of all past lives.

The thing is what we use for memory is stored somehow chemically in brain tissue, and therefore often lost (we forget things), has to be accessed, and can be destroyed by disease and certainly is destroyed by death.

I hadn't realised this was buddhist teaching. It is just my own experience from childhood onwards. While i recognise my existing consciousness is temporary, and tied to my physical body/mind, it is capable of accessing the cosmic consciousness and all that entails, and it can visit stored consciousnesses, as well as other living ones, through the conduit of the cosmic consciousness which permeates all.

I haven't identified any past consciousness of my own that I know of, and i suspect they do not actually exist, but i have lived through the lives of many many people (mostly short, painful and ordinary, yet each a window to very different times and worlds) reaching back from my father, through history to cromagnon and neandertal times.

It is also possible to access sapient minds all over the universe, past and present, although often one can do little more than look out through their eyes and use ones own mind to understand and interpret what they see..

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Posted (edited)

What you said was "The family is the most important part of God's plan". If you are going to make declarative statements based on the bible then the bible should not contradict you, right?

Mathew 10:37, 35-36, 12:48 etc. etc.

Mark 10:29

Luke 48-49, 53 etc.

You are saying there was no need for Jesus' mission in God's plan because He didn't need a plan for salvation in the first place. Then nothing in the bible was a part of God's plan. I mean come on, countermeasures have to be a part of any intelligent Plan. If God planned for nothing to happen...you see what I mean.

No that's not what I'm saying

I'm saying had Adam and Eve (the first holy family) not failed then all would have been born true Sons and Daughters of God and would not be reborn adopted Sons of God. If the fall in the Garden of Eden was part of the plan God would have been happy, but he wasn't happy.

And you may ask what is this Fall? The fall was the Fall of Spiritual awareness and heavenly linage , and the taking on of Evil linage.

Why do I say the first holy family and not first humans? Because those other humans were considered wildlife,(similar as to how under commonwealth law the original inhabitants of a land are considered fauna and Flora /wildlife) hence the sons of Adam and Eve mated with the wildlife, no they didn't have children from Apes or monkeys! That's crazy. Lol

Adam and Eve were the first Homo sapiens to communicate with God. Science will show creationist quickly that there were other humans around and dinosaurs millions of years before them, this was a evolution..God went through a process of creation over a very long time to make humans, how long he waited to make us finally! I shall discuss this fall and how it happened later, but essentially the Angel Lucifer became jealous of humans because Angels were not created to the full capacity or in the image of God and tricked them into inheriting his Satanic linage too ( Jesus: " You are of your father the Devil , and your desire is to do his will")

To create such a special being God made the physical world for this reason. Growth in the spirit world (non Corporeal world) is only possible with connection to the physical world. Yes I'm saying humans are capable of exceeding the Angels and one day will! but only one has done this to this time, and that is a True Son of God...born without sin ( that is inherited by all of us because of the fall) that man was Jesus Christ. However : "The whole of creation groans in agony waiting for the revealing of the sons of God" Saint Paul.

Therefore it's clear, if the fall never happened, there would be no need for salvation or any religion because people would have only been born True Sons and Daughters of God from the beginning. So salvation for for fallen mankind would be unnecessary. Adam was the Tree of Life, Jesus was the second Adam and that is why he is also called the Tree of Life, and this why we must be grafted to him!, because the first tree of life failed.

The fall created the Evil mind, this mind connects with the physical mind only.

Edited by Irrelevant

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I had a real good long look at the Gate many years ago. Why would God require more than one gate? If you are referring to John's vision and symbolism you would need to be a trained adept as he was to accurately discern what was implied with layers of symbolism, but you are right: that is not the point. The Gate does not even connect to walls; there is a pillar on each side under a rainbow-like arch...wow that was a long time ago--but walls and multiple gates are not necessary because nobody is getting past that without a thorough understanding of Evil. Evil is the force that prevents entrance and beyond that any structure is superfluous.

The Gate is a Symbolism, the Bible states each gate is of a pearl (the pearly gates), some think these gates are pearly in appearance! No, a pearl is a pearl of wisdom and the greatest wisdom concerns Love. This dynamic is regarding Love Between God, Man and Woman and there Children (the family) the family is the very core of the Logos. I shall explain this dynamic and how it relates to gates of love at another time.

As a example: don't cast pearls of wisdom before swine.

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Posted (edited)

Thank you to those who are posting or taking a interest in reading this thread.. This thread has not even got started yet.

I would advise the reader if they have time to review how spirits return and connect with those on earth and likewise grow, most not even being aware there is a spirit connecting with them at times, although sometimes you can feel them come upon you or even tempt you.. This is why such religions like Buddhism are correct but only to a point. These spiritual things are interpreted by fallen mankind so that's why there's so many religions..yes I'm saying the Buddhist interpretation is incorrect but not entirely! The Leverite Kabbalah interpretation is very close however.

You can see how Moses and Elijah (Elijah , after he left John the Baptist ) communicated and assisted with Jesus in reference to : The Mount Of Transfiguration. The spiritual eyes of the the Apostles were opened by God to see this.

Edited by Irrelevant

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Also, something I planed to get to later in this thread was about how creation is done.

The Higgs field is a field of energy beyond matter, before matter is a field of energy that holds it together. I mentioned God is in you more than you are! That's because every atom is held together by God.

God is trapped in you on a atomic level, but your in control because you were given free will. Something to think about and remember is that ol saying " there but by the grace of God go I"

For Creation:

I will ask you look at the universe, what do you see?? Galaxy's in spirals..SPIRALS! This is a key.. Now look at trees inside them what do you see? Spirals, now look at your finger prints what do you see? Spirals, now imagine your DNA (double Helix) Spirals..the invisible fingerprint of God is in all creation and it is a reflection of its maker..creation is created at the level of Symbol. We were created at the level of Image but have the signature of our Father all through us.

Now I ask what makes a Spiral? A positive and a negative, a male and a female.." God created them in his Image male and Female he created them"

This shows God is a Being of Harmonised Male and Female..when a man and woman are joined in harmonious marriage they are like God. A positive and a negative spiralling around each other, these create new beings.

So God has a Masculine Side and a Feminine side.

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Response to Mr. Walker

I fear you carry what I said way too far. I was pointing out a problem with the traditional picture of Buddhahood wherein all past life memories are brought back in detail. This would require some sort of cosmic unknown and unevidenced memory bank, and we have no reason to think such a thing might exist, except perhaps testimonies like yours, which I discount heavily.

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The pearl as a symbol of wisdom, held in place with golden frames as wisdom is held in place with golden knowledge, in a gate of silver, as understanding is silver.

The game of symbols is not hard.

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The pearl as a symbol of wisdom, held in place with golden frames as wisdom is held in place with golden knowledge, in a gate of silver, as understanding is silver.

The game of symbols is not hard.

Hi Frank.

I will Quote the the full scripture about it and meanings Tomorrow as I'm very tired ATM. It's good your a sceptic. Jesus chose 12 disciples to represent the 12 character types, (Jesus himself being the 13th and perfected man) yours at this time is the doubting Thomas. One of the character types I happen to like! There is also 8 mentioned by Jesus.." Blessed are the meek for they...blessed are the .." Whilst no direct relation we have 12 months in a year, 12 star sign types, 12 trees surrounding the 2 trees in the middle of the Garden of Eden and there is a relation on this symbolism to the twelve disciples that surrounded Jesus.

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I don't think I'm a skeptic, although it is often healthy to be skeptical. I am a Buddhist, and I am even skeptical about some Buddhist teaching. In the end we are each perhaps able to help others but not able to do much more; they must do it for themselves and we must do it for ourselves.

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If you want to really want to know how the spirit world works, I would suggest reading the Holy Bible. There are great truths in it.

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My view is based on astrology because I find it working, and in my view we get an imprint to ourselves the moment we are born. An imprint that dictates what kind of tendencies, both physical and mental we have (as mind and body are linked, it's a fact to me). The moment we are born we're given this mind-body puppet or mantle we wear throughout our life. It's our choise how we move that puppet, our free will which we can use to choose what we do with the ourselves that have been given to us (or chosen by us as Cayce said). Astrological imprint is personality's foundation. If your personality is a house which you build throughout your life, then that imprint is the bottom layer made of concrete, preventing the house from sinking and wavering in the wind.

I've looked through reincarnation websites that say they can calculate your reincarnation and watched a few vids about how to find out your reincarnations too, and all the methods seem to rely on knowing your personality's foundations, upon which you build your evolved self. And most of those sites, all of the ones I've visited in fact, ask your birthday and give answers awfully consistent and matching with astrology, and many sites openly admit they do it through astrology. And one video suggests that you look through the basics of your personality to these things. But this seems to conflict with Cayce's teaching, because we should lose the memories of our last lives when we visit the Angel of Forgetfulness.

Conflict, unless the birth-imprint, the personality's foundation, gets residue from your last life which it may get even if you use the Cayce theory, because as far as I remember, the Angel of Forgetfulness erases your memory only after you decide to be reincarnated again or when you decide, not before. So you'd still have your last life's memories when deciding on your next life, and it'd just make sense that the last life you lived would have impact on what kind of life you'd want to live next. So, if this is true, and I think it is if Cayce was right, then all the previous lives are linked.

And I've yet seen no reason to not believe Cayce, would welcome anyone who can question his words though.

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No that's not what I'm saying

I'm saying had Adam and Eve (the first holy family) not failed then all would have been born true Sons and Daughters of God and would not be reborn adopted Sons of God. If the fall in the Garden of Eden was part of the plan God would have been happy, but he wasn't happy.

And you may ask what is this Fall? The fall was the Fall of Spiritual awareness and heavenly linage , and the taking on of Evil linage.

Why do I say the first holy family and not first humans? Because those other humans were considered wildlife,(similar as to how under commonwealth law the original inhabitants of a land are considered fauna and Flora /wildlife) hence the sons of Adam and Eve mated with the wildlife, no they didn't have children from Apes or monkeys! That's crazy. Lol

Adam and Eve were the first Homo sapiens to communicate with God. Science will show creationist quickly that there were other humans around and dinosaurs millions of years before them, this was a evolution..God went through a process of creation over a very long time to make humans, how long he waited to make us finally! I shall discuss this fall and how it happened later, but essentially the Angel Lucifer became jealous of humans because Angels were not created to the full capacity or in the image of God and tricked them into inheriting his Satanic linage too ( Jesus: " You are of your father the Devil , and your desire is to do his will")

To create such a special being God made the physical world for this reason. Growth in the spirit world (non Corporeal world) is only possible with connection to the physical world. Yes I'm saying humans are capable of exceeding the Angels and one day will! but only one has done this to this time, and that is a True Son of God...born without sin ( that is inherited by all of us because of the fall) that man was Jesus Christ. However : "The whole of creation groans in agony waiting for the revealing of the sons of God" Saint Paul.

Therefore it's clear, if the fall never happened, there would be no need for salvation or any religion because people would have only been born True Sons and Daughters of God from the beginning. So salvation for for fallen mankind would be unnecessary. Adam was the Tree of Life, Jesus was the second Adam and that is why he is also called the Tree of Life, and this why we must be grafted to him!, because the first tree of life failed.

The fall created the Evil mind, this mind connects with the physical mind only.

I see, you did not mean families in general. Parents get mad at their kids all the time though... Moving on: I have never bought the concept of angels being jealous of humans or required to bow to them--maybe the last part is just Islam. Pride comes before the fall and that would put the pride and fall on humans who are getting bowed to and might think they are greater than angels. It is almost like Adam and Eve had lobotomies if they did not know the difference between evil and divine. Angels know that, so the only thing superior about humans is the potential to evolve--something angels might not even care about within their satisfied existence. That potential Had to be part of God's plan. For the potential to be realized each person would need to go through hell and survive--Salvation. I don't think God's holy family had the potential to evolve in a bubble. What about these wild humans; did they know more than Adam and were they crucial to progress towards the new kind of being?

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The thing is what we use for memory is stored somehow chemically in brain tissue, and therefore often lost (we forget things), has to be accessed, and can be destroyed by disease and certainly is destroyed by death.

...

I fear you carry what I said way too far. I was pointing out a problem with the traditional picture of Buddhahood wherein all past life memories are brought back in detail. This would require some sort of cosmic unknown and unevidenced memory bank, and we have no reason to think such a thing might exist, except perhaps testimonies like yours, which I discount heavily.

To the above, mind and body are linked. Placebo alone proves this but it goes beyond a simple placebo though that's still the basis of it. Different parts of the mind and different mental states are linked to different body parts. Believe it or not, but it's easy to verify (of course still a subjective experience). Still, if mind is only a chemical-physical-electric supercomputer, then who can say if there's more to it than what we see evidently. Perhaps the gravity-thing... but what would prevent there being an energy-field of sort, a "smell" that you can't detect at atom-nor physical particle level? That kind of "smell" in most things, that'd influence both mind and body?

To the lower part, Edgar Cayce spoke of an universal databank which seers, psychics, shamans and prophets have accessed through history, but often misinterpreted it or looked at it through their sunglasses of their own mental/soul/whatyoucallit biases and given more rigid interpretations of something that's not so rigid to begin with.

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If you want to really want to know how the spirit world works, I would suggest reading the Holy Bible. There are great truths in it.

I suggest reading the Bhagavad Gita, The Bible, The Koran, Certain Buddhist Sutra's, The Mahabharata (Bhagavad Gita is really a part of this) to name a few.

Then read some of these great but newer books. Remember just because a book is old does not mean it is any more truthful: Autobiography of a Yogi, Siddhartha, The Celestine Prophecy, The Universe in a Single Atom: The Convergence of Science and Spirituality, to name a few.

In this great information age one would be foolish to limit oneself to only one of the great holy texts. If one is seeking real spiritual truth one should study all the great books as they all speak of the same things, with different intended audiences and from different backgrounds.

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Response to Mr. Walker

I fear you carry what I said way too far. I was pointing out a problem with the traditional picture of Buddhahood wherein all past life memories are brought back in detail. This would require some sort of cosmic unknown and unevidenced memory bank, and we have no reason to think such a thing might exist, except perhaps testimonies like yours, which I discount heavily.

Ok I understand better now. Of course you discount personal testimony.

Yet it is such testimonies and experiences on which religions like buddhism and christianity begin. I have had experiences which i guess are very buddhist in anture and those which are clasically jewish/christian in nature. For me this confirms the universlity of god and how we all intepret "him" through our own filters.

Personally, I look for validation and evidences to support such experiences before i just accept them. For example while my father is dead, the places he visited in the 1930s are still existing. My mother is alive and so are some of the other old timers who attended these dances with my mum and dad.

I can use google to identify and date the type of motor bike I "saw"my father use. And so I can actually verify the accuracy of the all the things i observe while "riding" my father's stored consciousness; from the archetraves on buildings, to the costumes, language, bands, music and dances which existed in those small country halls 80 years ago. I can talk to my mother and verify wha t I saw occuring as my father courted her, including her responses, those of her sister and family etc.

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Posted (edited)

To the above, mind and body are linked. Placebo alone proves this but it goes beyond a simple placebo though that's still the basis of it. Different parts of the mind and different mental states are linked to different body parts. Believe it or not, but it's easy to verify (of course still a subjective experience). Still, if mind is only a chemical-physical-electric supercomputer, then who can say if there's more to it than what we see evidently. Perhaps the gravity-thing... but what would prevent there being an energy-field of sort, a "smell" that you can't detect at atom-nor physical particle level? That kind of "smell" in most things, that'd influence both mind and body?

To the lower part, Edgar Cayce spoke of an universal databank which seers, psychics, shamans and prophets have accessed through history, but often misinterpreted it or looked at it through their sunglasses of their own mental/soul/whatyoucallit biases and given more rigid interpretations of something that's not so rigid to begin with.

The bolded bit fits my life experiences precisely But i have always known that we perceive our world through filters. When i was 3 or 4 my mother explained it to me as owning a number of sunglasses with different coloured lenses. WE understood what we perceived through a particular lens; but we could easily and consciously change lenses, and thus see things differently and understand them from a differnt perspective. It wasnt until my psychology courses at uni that a professor put it in psychological terms .

Thus i acknowledge that what i see and experience may differ from what others do,

Nonetheless it works in practical terms for me, giving me great empowerment, joy and strength, as well as knowledge,

My personal belief is that, because i am a very ordinary human being, this connection is available to every human being who seeks it and opens them self to it .But you can not cling to a belief in self alone, and experience it. We are NOT self alone, but part of something much bigger and more complex than self.

Edited by Mr Walker

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Posted (edited)

Oh my.. Why do you ask?

If you were truly interested, seek!

GRR.

Should we make a drive through to those that are to lazy to seek? Go look. Hell.

Edited by AliveInDeath7

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There is a connection between NDE's and quantum physics and the holographic universe that has never been adequately explained away to me. Near death experiencers routinely describe their experiences in terms that can only be called "holographic" and they also say things that seem to parallel things I've read about quantum physics. I find that very evidential. There is no way that a housewife from Kansas or an uneducated truck driver from South Georgia would know or understand anything about quantum physics or the holographic nature of the universe yet they routinely come back after their experiences and describe them in terms that can only be called "holographic."

People who have NDE's routinely talk about overwhelming feelings of oneness and connectedness, feeling like they are everywhere in the universe at once, time and space not existing, buildings that are "made out of knowledge", 360 degree vision, seeing colors they've never seen before, hearing sounds that they haven't heard in this physical universe, and during the life review seeing their whole lives flash by in an instant (bolus of information)and feeling the emotions and feelings of the people they interacted with (the life review is a holographic experience par excellence), and how the other side will feel even more real to us than this side does, and feeling the feelings and hearing the thoughts of the people they interacted with. I find these things to be very evidential because it parallels things I've read about in popular physics books.

This explains why it is that so many near death experiencers say that the other side will feel even more real to us than this side does, and how it could be "realer than real" or "more consciousness than normal." Near death experiencers also say that it will feel even more real to us than this side does. The quote below explains why or how this is possible.

"Or, to put it another way, a holographic universe is blurry," says Hogan. This is good news for anyone trying to probe the smallest unit of space-time. ...

http://blogs.monogra...ys-to-be-first/

There is quite a bit of evidence from physics and near death experiences that our so called physical universe is some kind of strange holographic projection. The implications of this are enormous.

Our Universe may be a giant hologram (1 page)

http://www.inquisitr...giant-hologram/

The Universe as a hologram (about 5 or 6 pages):

http://www.crystalin...olographic.html

Testing the holographic universe

http://www.symmetrym...aphic-universe/

If you read Mark Horton's NDE and the parallels with the holographic universe theory become obvious:

http://www.mindsprin.../nde/markh.html

Near Death Experiences: A Holographic Explanation, Dr. Oswald Harding.

http://www.amazon.co...55530488&sr=1-1

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What Do We Know About Heaven?

#1. Heaven seems to be a place where thoughts are things and consciousness creates reality.

excerpt from Mark H's NDE:

Suddenly I thought of a mountain, I had seen as a child. When I looked up from the road there it was; The Mountain! Not just the mountain! But the most breathtaking mountain I had ever seen! Details the likes of which no one could imagine. Colors shades of color, shadows for which there are no words in the human language to describe it.

http://www.nderf.org...ark_h's_nde.htm

excerpt from A.J. Ayer's NDE:

"Did you know that I was dead ? It was most extraordinary, my thoughts became persons."

http://gonsalves.org...ite/atheist.htm

#2. Heaven seems to be a place where time and space do not exist; at least not in the same way they do here. The physics of the other side is very different than this physical universe:

"I was told that before we're born, we have to take an oath that we will pretend time and space are real so we can come here and advance our spirit. If you don't promise, you can't be born." (from Jeanie Dicus' near-death experience, 1974)

"Space and time are illusions that hold us to our physical realm; out there all is present simultaneously." (from Beverly Brodsky's near-death experience, 1970)

"During this experience, time had no meaning. Time was an irrelevant notion. It felt like eternity. I felt like I was there an eternity." (from Grace Bubulka's near-death experience, 1988?)

"I didn't know if I had been in that light for a minute of a day or a hundred years." (from Jayne Smith's near-death experience, 1965?)

"Earthly time had no meaning for me anymore. There was no concept of "before" or "after." Everything - past, present, future - existed simultaneously." (from Kimberly Sharp's near-death experience, date unknown)

"Time could also be contracted, I found. Centuries would condense into seconds. Millenniums would shrink into moments. The entire civilization that I was part of passed by in the blink of an eye." (from John Star's near-death experience, date unknown)

http://near-death.co...rticles004.html

#3. Heaven is a place where the feelings of oneness and connectedness seem to be infinite and overwhelming:

excerpt from Mark Horton's NDE:

I suddenly just relaxed completely and allowed "myself" to dissolve (?) open up (?) merge (?) into the "oneness" that surrounded me.

http://www.mindsprin.../nde/markh.html

excerpt from Michelle's NDE:

I remember understanding the others here.. as if the others here were a part of me too. As if all of it was just a vast expression of me. But it wasn't just me, it was .. gosh this is so hard to explain.. it was as if we were all the same. As if consciousness were like a huge being. The easiest way to explain it would be like all things are all different parts of the same body.

http://nderf.org/mic...lle_m's_nde.htm

#4. Heaven seems to be a place where just by thinking about a place or time we can go there and experience everything about that time and place:

excerpt from Mark Horton's NDE

I had to merely think of a place and time and I was there, experiencing everything about the place and time and people present.”

http://www.mindsprin.../nde/markh.html

#5. And Heaven seems to be a place where because of those feelings of oneness and connectedness we will share the experiences of every living creature that existed:

excerpt from Randy Gehling's (age 10) NDE:

"That was really cool! I kind of felt as though my body exploded - in a nice way - and became a million different atoms - and each single atom could think its own thoughts and have its own feelings. All at once I seemed to feel like I was a boy, a girl, a dog, a cat, a fish. Then I felt like I was an old man, an old woman - and then a little tiny baby."

http://near-death.co.../animals04.html

#6. And last but not least; Where is heaven? It seems to be all around us:

Excerpt from little Daisy Dryden's death bed vision:

Two days before she left us, the Sunday School Superintendent came to see her. She talked very freely about going, and sent a message by him to the Sunday School. When he was about to leave, he said, "Well, Daisy, you will soon be over the 'dark river.` After he had gone, she asked her father what he meant by the "dark river." He tried to explain it, but she said, "It is all a mistake; there is no river; there is no curtain; there is not even a line that separates this life from the other life." And she stretched out her little hands from the bed, and with a gesture said, "It is here and it is there; I know it is so, for I can see you all, and I see them there at the same time."

http://www.survivala...bv/chapter3.htm

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I don't want to downplay speculation about what might exist; the reductionist or "materialist" view of the world has gaping holes in it. Still, trying to fill these holes without evidence seems to push too hard. We have to just relax a little and let a few questions sit there unanswered -- perhaps permanently unanswered, as they are unanswerable.

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God, pain and suffering and separation

God is….

God is pure consciousness. In quantum physics consciousness is primary and matter is secondary. It takes consciousness to collapse the quantum wave into a particle so before anything can exist it first has to come into contact with consciousness. Consciousness comes before matter. Matter is an epiphenomena of consciousness. Consciousness is not a byproduct of the physical brain but is an inherent property of the universe, like gravity or light or electromagnetic energy. Our brains are transmitters and receivers of consciousness.

Continuity of Consciousness, Dr. Pim Van Lommel M.D.

http://www.iands.org...iousness_9.html

We are all part of that one unifying consciousness and that consciousness is God.

excerpt from Michelle M’s NDE: “I remember understanding the others here.. as if the others here were a part of me too. As if all of it was just a vast expression of me. But it wasn't just me, it was, gosh this is so hard to explain, it was as if we were all the same. As if consciousness was like a huge being. The easiest way to explain it would be like all things are all different parts of the same body. http://www.nderf.org...m's_nde.htm

We live in a holographic universe which means that everything is connected to everything else. Our separation is an illusion. We are all connected to God and that connection can not be lost. As a metaphor or analogy if you’ve ever seen the TV show Star Trek The Next Generation onboard the Enterprise they had a “holodecK’ where they could program different programs into the computer and it would generate a holographic projection of different scenarios, like a TV show only it would be 3 dimensional. The computer controlled all the characters in the holodeck. They characters believed themselves to be separate individuals but in actuality they were all part of a very complex computer program. Like a DVD of a movie only holographically projected.

Excerpt from Mellen Benedict’s NDE: “And it became very clear to me that all the Higher Selves are connected as one being, all humans are connected as one being, we are actually the same being, different aspects of the same being.” http://near-death.co...arnation04.html

Separation…..

One near death experience I read the woman said “we here in the physical universe can’t begin to comprehend the overwhelming feelings of oneness and connectedness in heaven.” It’s a constant theme for people who come back from these experiences, talking about the love, the oneness, the connectedness they felt with everything on the other side.

I theorize that it may not be possible to become a separate unique individual in heaven due to those overwhelming feelings of oneness and connectedness so in order to become a separate unique individual the soul has to first come to the physical universe and learn what it means and how it feels to be separate, something it can’t learn in heaven. The way we experience this separation is from the moment we are born and separate from our mothers and the umbilical cord is cut till the day we die and our death’s become a lesson in separation to the loved ones we leave behind life is one big long lesson in what it means and how it feels to be separate – something it can’t learn in heaven due to those overwhelming feelings of oneness and connectedness – or it’s “holographic” nature.

We experience separation in this life in a myriad of ways, divorce, friends moving away, politics, religion, race, gender, sexual orientation, wealth, education, I.Q., growing up and leaving home, generation gaps, losing friends and loved ones, pets dying. Separation doesn’t just have to be about people either. Experiencing separation can be in something as simple as picking a grape off a vine or picking a tomato, cutting up a steak, and every time we look at the world around us and see millions of separate unique objects. If we had never born we would still just be a cell in our parent’s bodies and wouldn’t be separate unique individuals unto ourselves. We come here to become separate, unique, individuals and learn what it means and how it feels to be separate – something that can’t be done in heaven due to those overwhelming feelings of oneness and connectedness.

Pain and suffering….

We are spiritual beings having a physical experience. We are not our physical bodies. Our bodies are just the vehicle through which our souls learn about the physical universe. Because we are part of God it means that in actuality our souls are pure consciousness. Pure consciousness that came from God and when we are first born has no concept of what it means or how it feels to be limited to and inhabit a physical body. It’s like when a little baby is first born and it starts exploring the world around it, putting its hands in its mouth, tasting, listening, and waving its arms and legs, learning how to control the body. As a metaphor you can’t learn to drive a car just by reading a manual about it or watching a video of someone else driving a car. You have to actually get in the car and drive it in order to learn how to control it. The car becomes an extension of your body you know where the fenders and bumpers are and how far you can go without hitting something. The same is true for riding a bicycle. The only way to learn how to ride a bike is by actually getting on one and riding it. Just watching someone else do it is insufficient.

The physical pain that we suffer imprints holistically the shape and parameters of the body. Each pixel or bit of pain imprints a shape on the soul of the body. Like a sculptor using a hammer and chisel to make a statue of a human being. And because heaven is a place where thoughts are things and consciousness creates reality our soul will use the information it gathers to make it’s own reality and it graduates and merges back into the Spiritual Universe. We don’t have to do anything to make it happen and we experience bug bites and paper cuts and burns and itching and other insults to our bodies – but some people do seem driven to create pain and perhaps their souls are goading them or encouraging them to do the things to their bodies that they do.

It seems to be the young middle class girls that live in protected environments and stay in their rooms all day that end up cutting themselves. They don’t get any physical inputs like mosquito bites or flea or ticks or poison ivy or scratches so their souls force them to experience the physical universe whether they want to or not. If you ask one of these girls why they do it they won’t really know – they will just say something like “I just wanted to feel something!” Those guys in the middle ages who self flagellated themselves, or the Malaysian religious fanatics, or the Philipino’s who re-enact the crucifixion or even people who get body piercings or tattoos might also be somewhat controlled by their souls to imprint bits of information while they are here in the physical universe. American Indians hang themselves up by their pectoralis muscles and I’m suspicious if they too aren’t being encouraged or goaded by their souls to imprint information.

The soul might use this information after it crosses back over into the Spiritual Universe to “make” it’s own body and the more “bits of information” or “pixels of information” the more clear and more precise the body will be. The more emotional the experience the more powerful and long lasting the memory it creates. The things we experience in this life might need to be as emotional as they are in order to overcome the oneness and connectedness and lack of time and space on the other side.

Emotions Make the Memory Last

Jan 31, 2005 ... “Ever wonder why some memories can stay vivid for years while others fade with time? The answer is emotion.”

http://www.webmd.com...memory</strong>

We don’t live for just ourselves. Because of the oneness and connectedness of Heaven the memories we are learning here are shared on the other side. A little tiny baby that dies will have access to all the information that we are learning and will be able to access it and use it to become a separate unique individual and know what it means and how it feels to be inside or inhabit a physical body.

Without this information we would be pure consciousness without shape or form inhabiting a vast expanse of pure black nothingness. We wouldn’t know what it felt like to make love to another person, or ride a wave at the ocean, or ride a bike, or what an olive tastes like, or fly in an airplane, or drive a car, or anything of the other myriad of things that make being alive so fun and entertaining. We come here to learn, to make memories, to learn what time and space look and feel like, what it feels like to have a body, what food tastes like, what it feels like to ride a bike real fast over a hump in the road, and most importantly what it means and how it feels to be a separate unique individual. We are spiritual beings having a physical experience.

The Church….

Jesus Christ died to establish the church. His prayer was that his followers would be able to taste a little bit of heaven right here on Earth. The Church is supposed to be a respite from the world. A place where those that believe in him will experience the love and oneness and connectedness of heaven. He wanted us to experience the oneness and connectedness with God that He had experienced while in Heaven.

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