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Erikl

Is Israel an Apartheid state?

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Can you smell the propaganda.... lol

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[media=]

[/media]

Israel is an apartheid state for anyone thinking that Palestine is part of Israel, yes. But in the general sense I would say no, Israel is not an apartheid state. There is no apartheid inside of Israel proper. There is fiendish apartheid present in Israel's stranglehold over Palestinian land, and it's the worst case of apartheid on the planet.

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Can you smell the propaganda.... lol

How's that propaganda? because it says the truth? I must admit, sometimes pro-Israeli non-Israeli sources might replicate pro-Palestinian sources in telling only parts of the story, but this video is actually extremely accurate. Or have you spent some time in Israel and found it to be different? if so, enlighten me, as I would like to know which part in Israel you've visited.

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Israel is an apartheid state for anyone thinking that Palestine is part of Israel, yes. But in the general sense I would say no, Israel is not an apartheid state. There is no apartheid inside of Israel proper. There is fiendish apartheid present in Israel's stranglehold over Palestinian land, and it's the worst case of apartheid on the planet.

Erm, what's your definition of Palestine? If you ask Hamas, and many other Palestinians, Palestine includes all of Israel. Being that it doesn't exist yet, it's a vague definition.

However, this video rightly states that the Palestinians outside Israel are not under Israeli rule proper, nor are they Israeli citizens. Also, being that they are no different racially, culturally or religiously than the Israeli Palestinians, then ofcourse there is no apartheid, which originated as a result of racism and bigotry. The situation between Israel and the non-Israeli Palestinians, is dictated by security measures that have to be taken by the Israeli government, not as a result of racist or bigot policies. If that was the case, then the same or similar policies would have been taken against Israeli Palestinians, which are the exact same people (and aside of 19 years of separation while the West Bank was under Jordanian occupation, they had family and marriage ties as well).

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How's that propaganda? because it says the truth? I must admit, sometimes pro-Israeli non-Israeli sources might replicate pro-Palestinian sources in telling only parts of the story, but this video is actually extremely accurate. Or have you spent some time in Israel and found it to be different? if so, enlighten me, as I would like to know which part in Israel you've visited.

It's nothing to do with that, the fact is the first part of the video is a cover to then mention "terrorists" and suicide bombers. Pure propaganda. Of course I don't expect you to see it that way.

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Erm, what's your definition of Palestine? If you ask Hamas, and many other Palestinians, Palestine includes all of Israel. Being that it doesn't exist yet, it's a vague definition.

However, this video rightly states that the Palestinians outside Israel are not under Israeli rule proper, nor are they Israeli citizens. Also, being that they are no different racially, culturally or religiously than the Israeli Palestinians, then ofcourse there is no apartheid, which originated as a result of racism and bigotry. The situation between Israel and the non-Israeli Palestinians, is dictated by security measures that have to be taken by the Israeli government, not as a result of racist or bigot policies. If that was the case, then the same or similar policies would have been taken against Israeli Palestinians, which are the exact same people (and aside of 19 years of separation while the West Bank was under Jordanian occupation, they had family and marriage ties as well).

Questioning the definition of the word 'Palestine' with me, how quaint. Defend yourselves and set Palestine free.

There is no such thing as an "Israeli Palestinian". It's great rhetoric to use when trying to express one's ownership of something. You want to own the Palestinians and I'm sorry to see that has revealed itself in your rhetoric.

That there are some Palestinians that want all of Israel (all of Palestine back) that doesn't make any distinction from Israel itself. That mud is on the face of Israelis too. Read the Likud charter, it's blatantly spelled out in writing. I don't see that as any reason to strangle Israel from land, sea and air.

What would be an acceptable compromise to me? Take the Gaza strip and extend the West Bank south and lose your access to the Red Sea. That's just my own idea, I would consider others that may be better than mine. But one thing I know for sure, compromises of some kind must be made on both sides if peace is possible.

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There is no such thing as an "Israeli Palestinian". It's great rhetoric to use when trying to express one's ownership of something.

If Palestinians are a nation of people, which deserve their own state, and their own national self-determination, then obviously, having an Israeli citizenship doesn't make one non-Palestinian, doesn't it?

I mean calling Israeli Palestinians "Arabs" is a bit weird - because there is no nation of Arabs. Yes, there are Arab nations, meaning all sorts of nations speaking Arabic, but there is no nation called Arabs. There are Egyptians, Moroccans, Lebanese, Syrians - and there are Palestinians. Denying the possibility of Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, is denying the fact that Palestinians are a nation, which kind of undermines your ideology. Ofcourse, it also undermines 99.9% of your propaganda and anti-Israeli libels, because most of it is based on some rubbish of Israeli being a racist, evil country that dictates a tyrannical apartheid under which the Palestinians live in. But wait, if there are no Israeli Palestinians, then ofcourse there are Lebanese, Syrian or Jordanian Palestinians as well, no? I wonder what the Palestinians themselves think about it :rolleyes:.

That there are some Palestinians that want all of Israel (all of Palestine back) that doesn't make any distinction from Israel itself. That mud is on the face of Israelis too. Read the Likud charter, it's blatantly spelled out in writing. I don't see that as any reason to strangle Israel from land, sea and air.

The thing is, the Likud party has hard background favoring the fact it's historical refusal for a Palestinian state was abandoned. The fact that the under Likud, 10,000 settlers were and the entire Gaza Strip was evacuated, which is equatable to Hamas' leader landing in Israeli parliament like Egyptian president Sa'adat did back then. Also, under Likud government, the Oslo B agreement was singed. Under Likud government, settlement growth was halt for almost a year - no Israeli Labour government has ever took such steps and it supposed to be dovish and pro-Palestinian in it's political platform.

The thing is, most Israelis, from left to right in the political spectrum, support and acknowledge the notion that the Palestinians should have their own state.

They even agree on the fact that perhaps more Israeli should be removed from the future Jew-free Palestine.

Most Palestinians, on the other hand, have it as a consensus that even if Palestine will exist alongside Israel (and there is never any clear evidence that most support that), Israel should still be flooded with millions of Syrian, Lebanese and Jordanian Palestinians, thus supporting a whole different notion of two states solution - one Jew-free Palestine, and another Palestine with a Jewish minority (and if you didn't get it - Israel would become another Palestine if it will be flooded by millions of Palestinians).

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Maybe they don't like short people and practice apart-height.

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If Palestinians are a nation of people, which deserve their own state, and their own national self-determination, then obviously, having an Israeli citizenship doesn't make one non-Palestinian, doesn't it?

I mean calling Israeli Palestinians "Arabs" is a bit weird - because there is no nation of Arabs. Yes, there are Arab nations, meaning all sorts of nations speaking Arabic, but there is no nation called Arabs. There are Egyptians, Moroccans, Lebanese, Syrians - and there are Palestinians. Denying the possibility of Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, is denying the fact that Palestinians are a nation, which kind of undermines your ideology. Ofcourse, it also undermines 99.9% of your propaganda and anti-Israeli libels, because most of it is based on some rubbish of Israeli being a racist, evil country that dictates a tyrannical apartheid under which the Palestinians live in. But wait, if there are no Israeli Palestinians, then ofcourse there are Lebanese, Syrian or Jordanian Palestinians as well, no? I wonder what the Palestinians themselves think about it :rolleyes:.

The thing is, the Likud party has hard background favoring the fact it's historical refusal for a Palestinian state was abandoned. The fact that the under Likud, 10,000 settlers were and the entire Gaza Strip was evacuated, which is equatable to Hamas' leader landing in Israeli parliament like Egyptian president Sa'adat did back then. Also, under Likud government, the Oslo B agreement was singed. Under Likud government, settlement growth was halt for almost a year - no Israeli Labour government has ever took such steps and it supposed to be dovish and pro-Palestinian in it's political platform.

The thing is, most Israelis, from left to right in the political spectrum, support and acknowledge the notion that the Palestinians should have their own state.

They even agree on the fact that perhaps more Israeli should be removed from the future Jew-free Palestine.

Most Palestinians, on the other hand, have it as a consensus that even if Palestine will exist alongside Israel (and there is never any clear evidence that most support that), Israel should still be flooded with millions of Syrian, Lebanese and Jordanian Palestinians, thus supporting a whole different notion of two states solution - one Jew-free Palestine, and another Palestine with a Jewish minority (and if you didn't get it - Israel would become another Palestine if it will be flooded by millions of Palestinians).

Romps through the groups, group names, and/or the political opinions of those groups don't supercede nor supplant the human rights of individuals. Zionism or not, we can't deny human rights to anyone.

When Gaza was evacuated of Israelis it was besieged by Israelis. Settlement/occupation can't be replaced by blockade and offered as a reason to support Zionist policy. There are many practices and ways that tyranny bans freedom. Killing, strangling, occupying, immobilizing, and stealing are all examples of denying private property, freedom of mobility, self expression, self determination, self defense, life, and the pursuit of happiness.

Signing papers agreeing to Arafat's Islands is a great way to guarantee a 2nd state of Palestine will never exist, which fits Likud's charter of intolerance of a Palestinian state, how convenient. This confers with what we know about Israel, not a reason to change my mind about civil liberty.

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Romps through the groups, group names, and/or the political opinions of those groups don't supercede nor supplant the human rights of individuals. Zionism or not, we can't deny human rights to anyone.

I was referring to your following claim:

There is no such thing as an "Israeli Palestinian". It's great rhetoric to use when trying to express one's ownership of something.

Don't try to change the subject that was raised as a result of your erroneous claims.

Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, and they are about 20% of Israeli citizenship today, enjoy full human rights, the same as their fellow Israeli Jews. That's 1 in 5 Israelis. They are the exact same people as the ones living in the West Bank and Gaza, just with Israeli citizenship. Same race, same language, same religion, even same families.

It seems that you go a great length to refute their existence, because it undermines all your "Israel is racist" arguments. If Palestinians living in Israel enjoy full human and political rights, then Israel's actions cannot be the result of some racist agenda to eradicate or ethnic cleanse the Palestinians. So first, you try to deny their entire existence. However, denying they exist, undermines the entire idea of a Palestinian nationhood. It also goes completely against the Palestinian national narrative, and against their own self-designation as Israeli Palestinians.

When Gaza was evacuated of Israelis it was besieged by Israelis. Settlement/occupation can't be replaced by blockade and offered as a reason to support Zionist policy.

The blockade is a right of any nation to put upon an enemy entity. The Gaza Strip under Hamas is such. It seems that even Egypt thinks so, which is why they didn't cancel the blockade on their side.

Signing papers agreeing to Arafat's Islands is a great way to guarantee a 2nd state of Palestine will never exist, which fits Likud's charter of intolerance of a Palestinian state, how convenient. This confers with what we know about Israel, not a reason to change my mind about civil liberty.

It's funny you talk about civil liberties, while completely ignore the fact that you bash the only side of the conflict that actually respect civil liberties, and support the one that completely ignores them.

The thing is, in Israel a Palestinian judge sent a Jewish president to jail. And that sums up any claim or apartheid/racist oppressiveness etc..

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B Jenkins - please stop spamming anti-Israeli Youtube videos.

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B Jenkins - please stop spamming anti-Israeli Youtube videos.

The intent was never anti-Israel but to present images of Israel that most Americans and Europeans never have an opportunity to see on their televisions. It was an opportunity to present another side. The duly lollygagging of the IDF and Border Police to the active participation believe you me when that happens in the States it makes news around the world. My apologies, there was no anti-Israel intent.

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Posted (edited)

By the way, from wikipedia:

Arab citizens of Israel[3] are non-Jewish Israeli citizens whose cultural and linguistic heritage or ethnic identity is Palestinian.

Furthermore:

According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, the Arab population in 2010 was estimated at 1,617,000, representing 20.5% of the country's population.[2] The majority of these identify themselves as Arab or Palestinian by nationality and Israeli bycitizenship.[5][6][7] Many have family ties to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, as well as to Palestinian refugees in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon.

So it's quite suffice to say that there are Israeli Palestinians. Your lack of acknowledgement is biased or ignorant.

And the fact that they exist as free citizens with full civil and political rights, proves that Israeli treatment and attitude towards non-Israeli Palestinians is not racially motivated, or it would have been treating it's own Palestinian citizens the same way. While ofcourse there is racism in Israel, like in any other country in the world, and ofcourse that's bad, and in that respect Israel is no different than any other country, and of course after a century of conflict between Jews and Arabs in the region there will be "bad blood" between the two, which I can show many examples of, Israel's behavior towards the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip is security based, not racially based.

This nullify any claims of apartheid or any other racist accusations which are widespread among the like of you.

Edited by Erikl
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The intent was never anti-Israel but to present images of Israel that most Americans and Europeans never have an opportunity to see on their televisions. It was an opportunity to present another side. The duly lollygagging of the IDF and Border Police to the active participation believe you me when that happens in the States it makes news around the world. My apologies, there was no anti-Israel intent.

These are not images of Israel, these are images of Israelis in contact with non-Israeli Palestinians, and one of these videos was a specific controversy that has nothing to do with the Palestinians (the Ethiopian issue) that was refuted in Israeli media as a conspiracy theory, but seems to still be well alive in the minds of pro-Palestinian propagandists. While my video actually shows an example of how most of Israel is managed, your videos where focusing on specific cases - and that's a great example of propaganda.

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Erikl,

What are your thoughts on Israel's routine practice of refusing Americans of Arab ethicity or Muslim backgrounds to enter its country or the occupied territories it controls. And it also bars those who are critical of Israeli actions or supportive of Palestinian rights?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/13/barbara-boxer-aipac-israel-discrimination

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/bs-ed-israel-visas-20130429,0,4732441.story

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2013/04/13/aipac-asks-congress-to-approve-israel-visa-waiver-program/

That is racially motivated and discriminatory towards Americans, wouldn't you agree?

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These are not images of Israel, these are images of Israelis in contact with non-Israeli Palestinians, and one of these videos was a specific controversy that has nothing to do with the Palestinians (the Ethiopian issue) that was refuted in Israeli media as a conspiracy theory, but seems to still be well alive in the minds of pro-Palestinian propagandists. While my video actually shows an example of how most of Israel is managed, your videos where focusing on specific cases - and that's a great example of propaganda.

Hmm, whatevah, that's a whole lotta of lucky cameramen to catch such "rare" incidences.

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Hmm, whatevah, that's a whole lotta of lucky cameramen to catch such "rare" incidences.

Not at all. The Middle East is a harsh region. The disputed territories are managed by non-democratic, corrupted regimes (both PLO and Hamas) with little respect to human life and as such, the area is generally less safe than Israel. Add to that nationalistic agendas of both regimes and nationalistic aspirations of their citizens, and armed Israeli forces. You bound to have some priceless TV coverages, just minutes away from a highly developed major cities in Israel. Book a 5 stars hotel in Jerusalem or Tel-Aviv, and go fetch your 6 o'clock headlines in the real Middle East (the disputed territories), without all the risks or inconvenience of actually living in a harsh country. And the region always provides "shocking" news.

It's also a great place for salon socialists to fight for human rights - there is no real threat to their lives, and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a hot spot in terms of world attention. I would like to see them going to China, Syria or Sudan and fight real horrible human rights violations.

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I was referring to your following claim:

Don't try to change the subject that was raised as a result of your erroneous claims.

Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, and they are about 20% of Israeli citizenship today, enjoy full human rights, the same as their fellow Israeli Jews. That's 1 in 5 Israelis. They are the exact same people as the ones living in the West Bank and Gaza, just with Israeli citizenship. Same race, same language, same religion, even same families.

It seems that you go a great length to refute their existence, because it undermines all your "Israel is racist" arguments. If Palestinians living in Israel enjoy full human and political rights, then Israel's actions cannot be the result of some racist agenda to eradicate or ethnic cleanse the Palestinians. So first, you try to deny their entire existence. However, denying they exist, undermines the entire idea of a Palestinian nationhood. It also goes completely against the Palestinian national narrative, and against their own self-designation as Israeli Palestinians.

The blockade is a right of any nation to put upon an enemy entity. The Gaza Strip under Hamas is such. It seems that even Egypt thinks so, which is why they didn't cancel the blockade on their side.

It's funny you talk about civil liberties, while completely ignore the fact that you bash the only side of the conflict that actually respect civil liberties, and support the one that completely ignores them.

The thing is, in Israel a Palestinian judge sent a Jewish president to jail. And that sums up any claim or apartheid/racist oppressiveness etc..

I Googled "Israeli Palestinian" and there's no such thing. If such a person did exist, it would be a person with dual citizenship. Show me the examples referring to these people. Let me see those Palestine passports accepted by Israel in Israel. If you can't do that, then in my mind, there's no such thing. It's just possessive rhetoric that matches your true political ambitions.

Whether a blockade is a "right" or not, it's an act of war. That a tiny minority of Palestinians would take up arms against you to retaliate is the expected outcome, not a "terrorist" act. If some foreign entity was cutting off trade to the US, it would use its military power and put a stop to that nonsense real quick. We have to stoop down to double standards when we say that someone else doesn't have the rights that we do.

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I Googled "Israeli Palestinian" and there's no such thing. If such a person did exist, it would be a person with dual citizenship. Show me the examples referring to these people. Let me see those Palestine passports accepted by Israel in Israel. If you can't do that, then in my mind, there's no such thing. It's just possessive rhetoric that matches your true political ambitions.

Wow. Really. I just quoted for you the wikipedia article that gives you a simple, plain definition of what is an Israeli Palestinian. And you simply ignore it and continue with your rants. Amazing. Nothing can penetrate your bubble.

As for duel citizenship - being that there is no Palestinian state (yet), there is no such citizenship. And if judging by citizenship, then I guess there are only about 3.5 million Palestinians worldwide, as all the Palestinians living in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Israel are not Palestinians at all, right? Tell that to them and their precious "right of return" for all their "refugees" :rolleyes:.

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Wow. Really. I just quoted for you the wikipedia article that gives you a simple, plain definition of what is an Israeli Palestinian. And you simply ignore it and continue with your rants. Amazing. Nothing can penetrate your bubble.

As for duel citizenship - being that there is no Palestinian state (yet), there is no such citizenship. And if judging by citizenship, then I guess there are only about 3.5 million Palestinians worldwide, as all the Palestinians living in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Israel are not Palestinians at all, right? Tell that to them and their precious "right of return" for all their "refugees" :rolleyes:.

This..... And it is why their supporters will never admit that the PA nor Hamas has EVER nor will ever utter the admission that Israel is a state for the JEWISH people - a homeland for the Jew - regardless it's size or scope. To do so is to admit that the Palestinians will never be allowed to return. Any Arab leader who ever does that will be as dead as Sadat or Rabin in no time. They envision another Arab state in the M.E. to compliment all those others that are such prosperous beacons of freedom and tolerance :w00t:
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Wow. Really. I just quoted for you the wikipedia article that gives you a simple, plain definition of what is an Israeli Palestinian. And you simply ignore it and continue with your rants. Amazing. Nothing can penetrate your bubble.

As for duel citizenship - being that there is no Palestinian state (yet), there is no such citizenship. And if judging by citizenship, then I guess there are only about 3.5 million Palestinians worldwide, as all the Palestinians living in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Israel are not Palestinians at all, right? Tell that to them and their precious "right of return" for all their "refugees" :rolleyes:.

You provided a link about Arab citizens of Israel which is the appropriate name for who they are. Your label doesn't exist; it's a figment of your imagination; a convenient and possessive rhetoric. That you even insist on focusing on these people is symptomatic of your need to focus on ethnic groups. It matters to you that they're Arab. It's the people who are propagandizing the Arab vs. Jew dynamic that are responsible for the violence at this point. Just like Ireland vs N. Ireland has nothing to do with religion, neither does this. This is about money, power and resources, and politics being played by nationalistic bigots on one side and violent freedom fighters on the other. The stain stains them all alike, but there is no dynamic, whether racial or ethnic or political that can excuse it. Reassessing our foreign policy and reforming domestic centers of power in Israel and Palestine in this conflict are parts of the way forward.

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Posted (edited)

http://adalah.org/Pu...2012-Update.pdf

Adalah launches comprehensive online ‘Discriminatory Laws Database’ to monitor racist Israeli legislation

by Adam Horowitz on March 19, 2013

From Adalah: The Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel :

There are more than 50 Israeli laws that discriminate against Palestinian citizens of Israel in all areas of life, including their rights to political participation, access to land, education, state budget resources, and criminal procedures. Some of the laws also violate the rights of Palestinians living in the 1967 OPT and Palestinian refugees.

You can also see Adalah's Brief on Discriminatory Laws and Bills Since 2009.

This database collects text, analyses, and legal action for present and proposed discriminatory laws in Israel and the OPT. Please explore:

Here's an example of one entry:

"Nakba Law" - Amendment No. 40 to the Budgets Foundations Law

Name: "Nakba Law" - Amendment No. 40 to the Budgets Foundations Law

Enacted: 2011

Status: Active

Themes: Civil and Political Rights

Description: The “Nakba Law” authorizes the Finance Minister to reduce state funding or support to an institution if it holds an activity that rejects the existence of Israel as a “Jewish and democratic state” or commemorates “Israel’s Independence Day or the day on which the state was established as a day of mourning.”

Palestinians traditionally mark Israel’s official Independence Day as a national day of mourning and organize commemorative events. The law violates their rights, and restricts their freedom to express their opinion, and will cause substantial harm to cultural and educational institutions and further entrench discrimination. The law causes major harm to the principle of equality and the rights of Arab citizens to preserve their history and culture. The law deprives Arab citizens of their right to commemorate the Nabka, an integral part of their history.

On 4 May 2011, Adalah, ACRI, the parents of school children and school alumni filed a petition against the law to the Supreme Court, requesting that it find the Nakba Law unconstitutional. The Supreme Court rejected the petition in January 2012, ruling that the case was premature as the law had not been used against any specific institution.

http://mondoweiss.ne...egislation.html

Here is a factsheet on Israel's discriminatory laws against Palestinians living in Israel compiled by the Middle East Monitor: http://www.middleeas...g-in-israel.pdf

Q: Does anyone know how to cut & paste from PDFs? I am feeling like an idiot for this bit of computer illiteracy.

Edited by B Jenkins
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The non-Israeli Arabs are guilty of not moving over and letting Israel have its Jewish state. The Israelis are guilty of enacting policies to define what that "Jewish state" means. Among the numerous consequences of Zionist policy, another seems to be stealing the identify of Jews worldwide and redefining who they are - relative to a piece of land whose location is conveniently located in the Bible. By adding the religious spin to their claim on the land, Zionists become able to duck behind the "you're anti-semitic!" defense they carry in droves. It's a powerful weapon when one can change the subject of the conversation to the character of the person who dared speak critically of Israel. You must defend your character before speaking with an ill-tongue against Israel! It's clear from past debates that Zionists frequently attack the character of Israel's critic, a very personal and desperate act and yet still highly effective.

The deepest underlying difference in how we view this conflict is whether or not we respect the individual rights of ALL individuals. 800,000 kids in Gaza and never did a damned thing wrong. With all due respect, but how dare you, Zionists?

I think that once we stick to our principles and don't carelessly insist on applying them to only one group of people, there can be agreement between sides in this conflict. There can be agreement between myself and and then. Achieving universal rights would be a huge victory to both Palestinians and Israelis for the long term and I hope younger Zionists can see that and eventually stop the violence and force-control through political means, which is likely after their chickens come back to roost and they suffer economically and politically for it.

Plenty of Jews outside of Israel look at Israel and realize that it's doing what they were explicitly told not to do. How good a Jew you are in Zionist circles has fallen on what one's views on Israel happen to be. The nationalism and its national identity is more powerful than the religion and its scripture to the Zionists. Ahmadinejad is reviled in the media because he brings Jews to a Holocaust Conference he hosted; Jews who happen to disagree with Zionist Israel. Oh my goodness, what a shocking house of horrors. That's how one becomes a "Holocaust denier" btw.

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Based on B Jenkins' recent input, I have to admit there are signs of apartheid within the state of Israel too. Surprise surprise.

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