Is Israel an Apartheid state?

[buckskin scout]

Wow. Really. I just quoted for you the wikipedia article that gives you a simple, plain definition of what is an Israeli Palestinian. And you simply ignore it and continue with your rants. Amazing. Nothing can penetrate your bubble.

As for duel citizenship - being that there is no Palestinian state (yet), there is no such citizenship. And if judging by citizenship, then I guess there are only about 3.5 million Palestinians worldwide, as all the Palestinians living in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Israel are not Palestinians at all, right? Tell that to them and their precious "right of return" for all their "refugees" .

No there is 5 million refugees, these are dispossessed peoples of a dispossessed land that live in horrid conditions in refugees CAMPS.

Israel don't want them because Israel knows they will have to bend and fold to Palestinian interests and Palestinian politics. The Zionists maintain majority with iron fist policies and marginalizes the Arab Israelis.

[+and-then]

No there is 5 million refugees, these are dispossessed peoples of a dispossessed land that live in horrid conditions in refugees CAMPS.

Israel don't want them because Israel knows they will have to bend and fold to Palestinian interests and Palestinian politics. The Zionists maintain majority with iron fist policies and marginalizes the Arab Israelis.

Wow, you actually stumbled over the truth. BJ if Israel is a state/homeland for the Jews - and it is - then how could it absorb 5 million refugees who hate everything about it and still remain a state for the Jews? I never watch your spamming attempts so spare me any more lessons please and just answer the question - please?

[buckskin scout]

Wow, you actually stumbled over the truth. BJ if Israel is a state/homeland for the Jews - and it is - then how could it absorb 5 million refugees who hate everything about it and still remain a state for the Jews? I never watch your spamming attempts so spare me any more lessons please and just answer the question - please?

Spamming attempts? No, what you are saying is you're going to be selective and indifferent.

Did you miss this post? http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=247582&st=0&p=4767253entry4767253

Additionally, the results of two recent studies support a feasible right of return for the Palestinians.

First, 92% of Israelis live in urban areas, 8% of Israelis live in rural areas.

Second, 78% of Israelis live on 15% of Israeli land c.f. 22% of Israelis live on 85% of Israeli land.

[+and-then]

Spamming attempts? No, what you are saying is you're going to be selective and indifferent.

Did you miss this post? http://www.unexplain...3

Additionally, the results of two recent studies support a feasible right of return for the Palestinians.

First, 92% of Israelis live in urban areas, 8% of Israelis live in rural areas.

Second, 78% of Israelis live on 15% of Israeli land c.f. 22% of Israelis live on 85% of Israeli land.

I fail to see how the location of the citizens of the state could change the dynamic that would occur just by those 5 million BECOMING citizens of the state. Would the right to vote or be MK's be nullified if they were rural vs urban dwellers? The point is that the essential nature of the state would be changed completely and that is never going to be acceptable. Israel is never going to become the 23rd Arab state.

[buckskin scout]

I fail to see how the location of the citizens of the state could change the dynamic that would occur just by those 5 million BECOMING citizens of the state. Would the right to vote or be MK's be nullified if they were rural vs urban dwellers? The point is that the essential nature of the state would be changed completely and that is never going to be acceptable. Israel is never going to become the 23rd Arab state.

The Bible can be problematic if one reads it too literally. For instance:

16 I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth, so that if anyone can number the dust of the earth, then your descendants can also be numbered. Genesis 13:16

5 And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” Genesis 15:5

In 1939, it is estimated that there were 18 million Jews worldwide. In 1945, it is estimated that there were 12 million Jews worldwide. In 2012, it is estimated there were roughly 14 million Jews worldwide. Roughly 50% live in the United States, and 50% live in Israel.

By comparision, Arabs make up 5% of the world population of 7 billion at 367.4 million.

Yet...

18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying,

“To your descendants I have given this land,

From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates: Genesis 15:18

How is a population so small as 14 million going to possess all that land? How is a population so small that has only grown by 2 million since 1945?

Something is fishy here because the math and the promises made to Abraham simply does not add up.

A mere 14 million souls are going to possess the land from the river of Egypt to the river Euphrates? Puh, do I look stupid to you?

But the David Kingdom was the closest Israel would ever achieve this back in 1000-926 BCE. So I guess, fellow Bible readers, one can surmise the promise of Abraham was fulfilled through King David and it lasted roughly 74 years.

[+and-then]

The Bible can be problematic if one reads it too literally. For instance:

16 I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth, so that if anyone can number the dust of the earth, then your descendants can also be numbered. Genesis 13:16

5 And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” Genesis 15:5

In 1939, it is estimated that there were 18 million Jews worldwide. In 1945, it is estimated that there were 12 million Jews worldwide. In 2012, it is estimated there were roughly 14 million Jews worldwide. Roughly 50% live in the United States, and 50% live in Israel.

By comparision, Arabs make up 5% of the world population of 7 billion at 367.4 million.

Yet...

18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying,

“To your descendants I have given this land,

From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates: Genesis 15:18

How is a population so small as 14 million going to possess all that land? How is a population so small that has only grown by 2 million since 1945?

Something is fishy here because the math and the promises made to Abraham simply does not add up.

A mere 14 million souls are going to possess the land from the river of Egypt to the river Euphrates? Puh, do I look stupid to you?

But the David Kingdom was the closest Israel would ever achieve this back in 1000-926 BCE. So I guess, fellow Bible readers, one can surmise the promise of Abraham was fulfilled through King David and it lasted roughly 74 years.

What does any of that have to do with my statement about voters in Israel?

[Erikl]

Wow Yamato - I haven't been to this forum for few days and I see you and Jenkings have turned this thread into the sci-fi channel, with a nutjob conspiracy special!

Yamato, you are so brain washed as to actually see facts as they are when presented to you plain and simple.

Yes I gave you quotes to the Israeli Arabs entry on wikipedia. But just in the beginning, and through out all the article, it says, plain and simple, that they are Palestinians. The Palestinians themselves see them as such, Israeli Palestinian member of the Israeli parliament see themselves as representing not only Israeli Palestinians but the voice of the Palestinians living in the disputed territories.

You can continue with you mish mash of yapping and ranting as much as you like, throwing big words such as "liberty", "human rights" without anything to do with the subject of this thread, but the truth is you've proven wrong here, plain and simple. I do not care if a person is a Jew or a Palestinian, but as we do talk about Israel's treatment of it's own Palestinian citizens, ofcourse it has anything to do with that. That's the topic of this thread.

Seeing you pathetic attempts to paint Israel as an apatheid state just makes me look at you as two aliens from some other world. Just children playing games and making up stuff. Who cares - it seems you don't, when it comes to facts.

But hey, tomorrow I'm going to work (we start our working day on Sundays here). Oh, did I mention my boss at work, in a IT software company, is a Muslim Palestinian? Oops. Guess that apartheid is being enforced so hard, that Israeli Palestinians can be the boss of Israeli Jews in Apartheid Israel .

Give me a break .

Edited May 11, 2013 by Erikl

[Erikl]

What does any of that have to do with my statement about voters in Israel?

I like it how both of them just ignore simple facts and avoid answers by ranting and posting sub-topics to go off the main topic, while covering the fact that they do not give simple, straight answers with smoke and mirrors.

[buckskin scout]

Wow Yamato - I haven't been to this forum for few days and I see you and Jenkings have turned this thread into the sci-fi channel, with a nutjob conspiracy special!

Yamato, you are so brain washed as to actually see facts as they are when presented to you plain and simple.

Yes I gave you quotes to the Israeli Arabs entry on wikipedia. But just in the beginning, and through out all the article, it says, plain and simple, that they are Palestinians. The Palestinians themselves see them as such, Israeli Palestinian member of the Israeli parliament see themselves as representing not only Israeli Palestinians but the voice of the Palestinians living in the disputed territories.

You can continue with you mish mash of yapping and ranting as much as you like, throwing big words such as "liberty", "human rights" without anything to do with the subject of this thread, but the truth is you've proven wrong here, plain and simple. I do not care if a person is a Jew or a Palestinian, but as we do talk about Israel's treatment of it's own Palestinian citizens, ofcourse it has anything to do with that. That's the topic of this thread.

Seeing you pathetic attempts to paint Israel as an apatheid state just makes me look at you as two aliens from some other world. Just children playing games and making up stuff. Who cares - it seems you don't, when it comes to facts.

But hey, tomorrow I'm going to work (we start our working day on Sundays here). Oh, did I mention my boss at work, in a IT software company, is a Muslim Palestinian? Oops. Guess that apartheid is being enforced so hard, that Israeli Palestinians can be the boss of Israeli Jews in Apartheid Israel .

Give me a break .

Gaza is under siege.

The West Bank is occupied and the Palestinians live under Israeli military law.

There are literally several hundred checkpoints peppered through out the West Bank which restrict the movements of Palestinian citizens.

Israel is building Jabotinsky's "Iron Wall"

".... Settlement can thus develop under the protection of a force that is not dependent on the local population, behind an Iron Wall which they will be powerless to break down. ....a voluntary agreement is just not possible. As long as the Arabs preserve a gleam of hope that they will succeed in getting rid of us, nothing in the world can cause them to relinquish this hope, precisely because they are not a rubble but a living people. And a living people will be ready to yield on such fateful issues only when they give up all hope of getting rid of the Alien Settlers. Only then will extremist groups with their slogan 'No, never' lose their influence, and only then their influence be transferred to more moderate groups. And only then will the moderates offer suggestions for compromise. Then only will they begin bargaining with us on practical matters, such as guarantees against pushing them out, and equality of civil, and national rights."

Ze'ev Jabotinsky, as quoted from the Haaretz Daily, 1923.

Israel is guilty of ethnic cleansing, they are undergoing a program of Judaization or Zionization of the Israel but not only that but the West Bank. Meanwhile the Gaza is simply the world's largest open air prison. Israelis have no right to settle in the West Bank. Furthermore, JEWISH State and democracy is a misnomer. That is oil and water. A state can't be a Jewish one and still claim to be a democracy like the United States is.

I trust the intelligence of UM members that they will see through all the deceptions and censors that Israel relies upon. Unfortunately, western media is owned and run by the Zionists or rather Jews that are fully supportive of Zionism. These same Zionists brag about how they own 90% of the world's porn industry too.

[buckskin scout]

I fail to see how the location of the citizens of the state could change the dynamic that would occur just by those 5 million BECOMING citizens of the state. Would the right to vote or be MK's be nullified if they were rural vs urban dwellers? The point is that the essential nature of the state would be changed completely and that is never going to be acceptable. Israel is never going to become the 23rd Arab state.

Don't worry about it, and then. Afterall only 12 of the 120 member Knesset are Arab Israelis and only 9 of those 12 have official titles. There's your democracy for you!

South Africa's apartheid was more of a deliberate and planned system, whereas what Israel is doing is more of a defensive military measure out of knee-jerk necessity.

Is that what the settlements are?

[Zaphod222]

Israel is an apartheid state for anyone thinking that Palestine is part of Israel, yes. But in the general sense I would say no, Israel is not an apartheid state. There is no apartheid inside of Israel proper. There is fiendish apartheid present in Israel's stranglehold over Palestinian land, and it's the worst case of apartheid on the planet.

That is a ridiculous claim. The "palestine land" that you talk about is the West Bank, and yes, until there is a final solution for that territoriy it will remain under occupation.

But "apartheid"?? "Worst case on the planet"?? How do you come up with bombastic nonsense like that, short of quoting Al Quaeda pamphlets directly.

Fact is, apartheid is practised in all islamic countries. Muslims are privileged over non-muslims, and men are privileged over women. In that sea of apartheid, Israel stands out as the only modern democracy in this sea of apartheid.

And some deluded PC clowns have the nerve to single out for attack.... Israel??? Why don´t you try life in Saudi-Arabia before spouting off this nonsense.

Sheesh.

[Zaphod222]

Don't worry about it, and then. Afterall only 12 of the 120 member Knesset are Arab Israelis and only 9 of those 12 have official titles. There's your democracy for you!

Yes, that is democracy for you. 12 out 120 represent the 10% Arab population of Israel. Duh!

Now please tell me how many Jews are in the PA government. I am all ears.

Is that what the settlements are?

Settlements are houses where people live. In a sane world, that would not be an issue. If the PA wanted peace, they would let the Jews live among their population under equal protection just as the Arabs enjoy in Israel.

But oops.... the PA demands that the West Bank becomes cleansed of all Jews. "Judenrein" as Hitler called it.

Now how you call that concept? Pure democracy, I suppose.

The sheer ignorance and hypocrisy of the Israel bashers is amazing.

[SHaYap]

what a tangled web this that we weave ....

[buckskin scout]

Yes, that is democracy for you. 12 out 120 represent the 10% Arab population of Israel. Duh!

Now please tell me how many Jews are in the PA government. I am all ears.

Get outta here! Arabs make up 20% of the population! D'OH!

Settlements are houses where people live. In a sane world, that would not be an issue. If the PA wanted peace, they would let the Jews live among their population under equal protection just as the Arabs enjoy in Israel.

But oops.... the PA demands that the West Bank becomes cleansed of all Jews. "Judenrein" as Hitler called it.

Now how you call that concept? Pure democracy, I suppose.

The sheer ignorance and hypocrisy of the Israel bashers is amazing.

Because it is on occupied land these settlers are building on. These settlers live under Israeli law btw while the occupied Palestinians live under military law. Why is that? Why do not these settlers live under military law like the Palestinians do?

[Zaphod222]

When Gaza was evacuated of Israelis it was besieged by Israelis. Settlement/occupation can't be replaced by blockade and offered as a reason to support Zionist policy.

What the heck do you mean by "besieged"?? If your country is bombarded with rocket from an a neighbouring territory, you have all the right in the world to check the cargo that goes into that country to limit the amounts of rocketry. Meanwhile, Israel supplies Gaza with most of its electricity and all sorts of humanitarian aid, including hospital service.... some siege.

Also it has escaped your attention that Egypt also has a border with Gaza and also controls what goes in and out there (although with much less enthusiasm now, after the Muslim Brotherhood takeover).

I suggest you do a minimum of research before posting more such pompous nonsense.

[buckskin scout]

Some people don't like my videos here but this one runs just runs 2 minutes and 7 seconds. And shows the degradation of the Occupied Territories as a viable, contiguous, soveriegn, and independent state due to settlements, Jew-only roads, the apartheid wall, checkpoints, military occupancy, etc. Brilliant little piece of video!

[SHaYap]

The question is not "Is Israel the same as South Africa?"

It is "do Israel's actions meet the international definition of what apartheid is?"

The crime of apartheid is defined by the 2002 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court as inhumane acts of a character similar to other crimes against humanity "committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime."

http://www.ceia-sc.org/page55/page55.html

it might not be apartheid but it is zionapartheid

[Erikl]

Get outta here! Arabs make up 20% of the population! D'OH!

LOL. You do realize that in a real apartheid, Arabs had no representation what so ever in Israeli parliament, right?

I also like how you completely ignore the fact that my boss is an Israeli Palestinian. Can't happen in an apartheid system, as well I'm afraid.

Also, in an apartheid system, an Israeli Palestinian judge wouldn't send an Israeli Jewish president to jail. Can't happen as well, I'm afraid.

But, just as I said, you do not tackle these issues, repeatedly raised in this thread - you just start your own mini-topics in hope to cover the fact that you do not reply to these simple, blatant, facts. For me and the rest of the intelligent UM members, that's a clear and cut proof of your dishonesty, and "politician" like behavior of both you and Yamato.

[Yamato]

All the malingering meandering diatribe about ethnic groups aside, the status quo of Israel-Palestine is unacceptable, period. People complaining about the treatment of Israelis and Palestinians both should be able to agree on that much. If we can't even agree on that, there is no agreement possible. Some people will just have to keep complaining about the status quo while propping it up and insisting on it at the same time, a worthless combination to make a position out of.

[buckskin scout]

LOL. You do realize that in a real apartheid, Arabs had no representation what so ever in Israeli parliament, right?

I also like how you completely ignore the fact that my boss is an Israeli Palestinian. Can't happen in an apartheid system, as well I'm afraid.

Also, in an apartheid system, an Israeli Palestinian judge wouldn't send an Israeli Jewish president to jail. Can't happen as well, I'm afraid.

But, just as I said, you do not tackle these issues, repeatedly raised in this thread - you just start your own mini-topics in hope to cover the fact that you do not reply to these simple, blatant, facts. For me and the rest of the intelligent UM members, that's a clear and cut proof of your dishonesty, and "politician" like behavior of both you and Yamato.

Erikl, why doesn't Israel have a constitution? *coughequalityisconstitutedcough* And why does Israel have undeclared borders? *coughexpansionist,wanttheWestBank,EastJerusalemcough*

BTW, did you happen to click on third_eye's link? Here I will cut and paste it for you.

The question is not "Is Israel the same as South Africa?"

It is "do Israel's actions meet the international definition of what apartheid is?"

The crime of apartheid is defined by the 2002 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court as inhumane acts of a character similar to other crimes against humanity "committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime."

Israel’s Apartheid Laws more

Goldstone Report and Israeli Apartheid more

Articles about Israeli Apartheid more

Recommended reading: "Israeli Apartheid - A Beginner's Guide" more

Not an Analogy: Israel and the Crime of Apartheid more

Applicability of the Crime of Apartheid to Israel more

Apartheid Powerpoint Presentation view

A brief overview of apartheid in the only democracy in the Middle East:

For references, click here

Right of return for Jews only

Palestinians are denied the right to return to homes and lands that have been taken from them in Israel, while a person with one Jewish grandparent anywhere in the world can settle on that same land.

For a fascinating bit of mental gymnastics justifying the Law of Return click here

Limits on Palestinian growth

Since 1948, scores of new communities have been founded for Jews, but very few for Palestinians, causing severe residential overcrowding.

Unequal funding for Palestinian towns

Palestinian towns and villages in Israel do not receive the same funding as Jewish towns, even though taxation rates are equal for Palestinians and Jews.

Limits on land leased to Palestinians

Until recently, Palestinians were not permitted to lease land from the Israeli Land Administration, which controls 93% of the land in Israel.

Unrecognized Palestinian villages denied basic services

Many Palestinian villages, some predating the State of Israel, are unrecognized by the government, and thus receive no running water, electricity, or access roads.

Destruction of unrecognized Palestinian villages

The Bedouin citizens residing in the unrecognized villages of the Negev have for many years suffered from severe discrimination and marginalization.

Unequal application of the law to Jews and non-Jews

A dual system of law discriminates between Jewish Israelis and indigenous Palestinians based on a constructed status of "Jewish nationality."

No constitutional protection for minorities

Israel openly declares itself "a state of the Jewish people" yet has no constitution to protect the rights of the 24.5% of its citizens who are non-Jewish.

Unequal funding for Palestinian education

There are separate and inferior school systems for Palestinians inside Israel.

Restricted access to good jobs for Palestinians

Service in the Israeli army is a prerequisite for the best private and public sector jobs.

Confiscation of Palestinian land for Jewish use

Land is confiscated from Palestinian villages and made available for Jewish use.

Poisoning, uprooting of Bedouin Israeli citizens’ crops

The government of Israel has sent planes to spread poison on Bedouin crops.

Plans to "Judaize" the Palestinian areas of the Galilee

The area of the Galilee in northern Israel is where many Israeli

Palestinians live. Some are descended from the earliest Christians, while others are Muslim.

Discrimination in public places

Palestinian citizens of Israel are often discriminated against through denial of access to recreation spaces.

Israeli anthem discriminates

Israelis who are Muslim or Christian must extol the Jewish spirit when singing Israel’s national anthem.

Israeli flag discriminates

The flag of Israel displays the religious symbol of Judaism, though nearly one-quarter of its citizens are Christian or Muslim.

House demolitions

In 2007, 759 Palestinian homes were destroyed inside Israel.

Denial of family unification for Arabs

In 2003, the Israeli Knesset enacted legislation that denies any possibility of residency status for Palestinians from the West Bank or Gaza who are married to Israeli citizens.

Failure to protect Palestinian citizens during wartime

Almost all Palestinian towns and villages in northern Israel lack public bomb shelters.

Unequal compensation for Palestinian citizens for war damages

After the Lebanon war, Palestinian villages were denied compensation for damages.

Discrimination at airports and train stations

Palestinians are frequently taken aside at Israel’s airports and train stations and searched, often invasively.

Government leaders talk openly of expelling Arabs from Israel

Christians have lived in the land that became Israel for 2000 years, Muslims for more than 1300 years. Now these citizens are referred to as a demographic threat, or "the Arab Problem."

Palestinian history and Israel’s borders removed from textbooks

Teachers are not allowed to teach students in public schools about Palestinian history.

Edited May 11, 2013 by B Jenkins

[Erikl]

Erikl, why doesn't Israel have a constitution? *coughequalityisconstitutedcough* And why does Israel have undeclared borders? *coughexpansionist,wanttheWestBank,EastJerusalemcough*

What does that have to do with Apartheid?

It seems you've resorted to yet another childish game - "find whats unique in Israel". I can ask why don't the British have a constitution as well, or why Cyprus has undeclared borders.

None of this has got anything to do with the topic here. Which just proves my exact point in the last few posts here - you do not response to any trivial facts given to you, you just post your own stuff, tons of it, in hope it will cover the fact you didn't response.

As for the rest of what you've written - I'll tackle it later, most of it as got nothing to do with apartheid. As I said before, today we work here in Israel, and I'm off to my job, to be managed by a Palestinian boss, as a token of Israeli apartheid .

[SHaYap]

there is always one to bring the ship down ....

[+and-then]

there is always one to bring the ship down ....

What does this mean?

[Antilles]

Having actually visited Israel and the Middle East, I think I can talk a little about this.

For a start, no-one here has mentioned the fact that it was the UK!!! who created all of this schmozzle in the 1st place.

Everyone of the Jewish faith is welcome to live in Israel. How's that for tolerance?

The only people I came across who appeared to be intolerant were the Palestinians, who try to ram their ideas about everything down everyone else's throats.

And the fact that everything's closed on Saturdays. That's a bit difficult to get used to.

[SHaYap]

What does this mean?

maybe just maybe ... someone else might have got a point ....