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Erikl

Is Israel an Apartheid state?

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That part is simple, third... I just accept the fact that I am a creation and not the Creator. My reference for understanding Him is His word in the scripture and He "proves" His existence by prophecy. Obviously you do not believe and I'm okay with that - everyone has the choice and some simply cannot get past proof to faith. The mistake a lot of non-believers make though, is to assume that believers rabidly agree with everything that is happening. There is much in the word and the world that I cannot understand and from my limited moral outlook I cannot approve of but I understand that I...AM...limited. He isn't.

You not the first I've met that sees things that way ... and believes it to be so ... but a fair and friendly warning ... you don;t want to get into this bit with my sis ... she's gonna throw down the wrath and glory of Mother Mary on you so vicious I think we won't have time for a beer ... :lol:

~cheers

.

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Posted (edited)

That part is simple, third... I just accept the fact that I am a creation and not the Creator. My reference for understanding Him is His word in the scripture and He "proves" His existence by prophecy. Obviously you do not believe and I'm okay with that - everyone has the choice and some simply cannot get past proof to faith. The mistake a lot of non-believers make though, is to assume that believers rabidly agree with everything that is happening. There is much in the word and the world that I cannot understand and from my limited moral outlook I cannot approve of but I understand that I...AM...limited. He isn't.

I place my faith in the good will of God. I can not accept a doctrine that insists Christ will come again once the Jews establish a state, gathered all the Jews in Israel, and built a third temple. Upon which the world ends and practically all the Jews are killed at Armageddon. The few Jewish survivors would then convert to Christianity.

Yay, Christ can be equated to Hitler in his grand designs for the Jewish Aliyah and Christian Zionists take on Christian eschatology.

Christian Zionism is so blatantly anti-semitic and hypocritical it appalls me. I believe it is downright human ignorance.

Edited by B Jenkins
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No doubt ANY doctrine with which you do not approve can be counted ignorance BJ. But my point that you referenced is valid. Israel IS IN THE LAND. They are not going to be easily pushed out of it again regardless whether every cent of US aid were stopped tomorrow. You should really ponder this obsession you seem to have with convincing people that Israel needs destroying. And save the lame denials. If it happened tomorrow you'd be cheering. What was that you said about "ignorance"?

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No doubt ANY doctrine with which you do not approve can be counted ignorance BJ. But my point that you referenced is valid. Israel IS IN THE LAND. They are not going to be easily pushed out of it again regardless whether every cent of US aid were stopped tomorrow. You should really ponder this obsession you seem to have with convincing people that Israel needs destroying. And save the lame denials. If it happened tomorrow you'd be cheering. What was that you said about "ignorance"?

I've never seen him try to convince people that Israel needs destroying. Can you provide some quotes to support your claim? The regime ruling Israel needs to change and that's true of more regimes than not. This Israel-Palestine debate includes disagreement over governments, not nations. It's accurate to state that your obsession is defending the Israeli government, while his is making the point that the Zionist regime should be replaced. Reforming Zionist policy will be good for Israel, the region, the "war on terror" and the world. Hardly "destruction".

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everybody now ....

it's fun to go to the ...

559343_400166726716072_980153028_n.jpg

hmmm ... I wonder if JC accepts early membership dues ....

~

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Posted (edited)

I've never seen him try to convince people that Israel needs destroying. Can you provide some quotes to support your claim? The regime ruling Israel needs to change and that's true of more regimes than not. This Israel-Palestine debate includes disagreement over governments, not nations. It's accurate to state that your obsession is defending the Israeli government, while his is making the point that the Zionist regime should be replaced. Reforming Zionist policy will be good for Israel, the region, the "war on terror" and the world. Hardly "destruction".

Yes, Yam, we all know that only peaceful removal of the Israeli government is what BJ wants. It's easy enough to say but it refuses to admit the real consequences of the act of removing the safeguards that keep Israel secure. He and you as well, either do not understand (doubtful) or do not care what the consequences would be if the IDF was forced to remove from the Jordan Valley and the Golan. It is easy to SAY that a process will work, but when the rockets begin to fall on Ben Gurion and the Knesset...will you then admit being wrong and demand a price of the Palestinians? Or will equivocation be the order of the day? How many times must they give ground and have it used as a base to kill them before someone at least admits that they simply do not care what happens to Israel? The state of Israel is not a nation of hostages you know... apparently the Zionist government you and BJ abhor is mostly supported by the majority of Jews living there. I would rather that I'd NEVER even heard the name Barack Obama but the majority of my fellow citizens feel differently so I make the best of a horrid situation. Maybe Israelis feel the same? Or maybe they genuinely support the idea that the Zionists are right and that if they do not stand to protect the survival of Jews then NO ONE WILL.

ETA as to the point of supporting the claim with quotes from him.... I cannot present what he has never had the integrity to spell out. But it would take a truly dense or legalistic mind to miss his intent. His or your's - or a few others here. I say again, it is the right of everyone here to hold an opinion about this controversy. I state my position loudly and openly and do not play the edges acting as if I am impartial. If I say I am all for a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as it's capital yet I want Palestinians to have no rights, no government I don't approve of and want to make them meet a list of impossible requirements prior to having their state then what is the point? This is what many here at UM say is required of Israel before it can be considered a legitimate state. And the greatest joke of all is that those here are being generous compared to the real designs of the Palestinians and the Arab states that surround Israel. Even what you ask for is unacceptable to them. They want ALL THE LAND.

Edited by and then

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Posted (edited)

No doubt ANY doctrine with which you do not approve can be counted ignorance BJ. But my point that you referenced is valid. Israel IS IN THE LAND. They are not going to be easily pushed out of it again regardless whether every cent of US aid were stopped tomorrow. You should really ponder this obsession you seem to have with convincing people that Israel needs destroying. And save the lame denials. If it happened tomorrow you'd be cheering. What was that you said about "ignorance"?

Just to jump back to this Biblical prophecy, what entails the Jewish Aliyah (regathering), is not Jewish obedience during its diaspora?

But according to Christian Zionism, the Jewish Aliyah is going to entail not only a second holocaust but also the end of the world as we know it.

Where in the Bible does it ever make this claim?

If Christian Zionism is the Gospel truth, what incentive does the Jewish Aliyah hold for the Jews if it is only going to result in their ULTIMATE FINAL destruction.

Here is piece from The Passionate Attachment:

The Illegality Of Israel's Conduct In The Occupied Areas

Although disputed by the Israelis and their American protagonists, there is little doubt that Israel's settlements program and other aspects of its conduct in the Occupied Territories violate international law.

Israel behaves as though it had acquired sovereignty over the territories, but in fact, under established international law, all that Israel achieved by military conquest (which in turn has accounted for more than half the territory it now governs) was the status of "belligerent occupant". A belligerent occupant possesses only a temporary and de facto authority to protect its security interests, and it is subject to various substantive limitations designed to protect the inhabitants.

We make this point to emphasize Israel's dubious status in the Occupied Territories and the conditions which treaties and statutory law have now imposed on it. The fact that under such law Israel is merely a "belligerent occupant" and therefore subject to severe limitations is wholly rejected in action if not in theory by the Israeli government. In fact, at the time of the passage of Resolution 242, the Israeli negotiator Abba Eban dismissed with scorn that provision of the preamble to the resolution which reaffirms the proposition that "the acquisition of territory by force is inadmissible, in accordance with the United Nations Charter, the principles of international law, and relevent Security Council resolutions."

The relevent treaties and conventions are the Hague Convention IV adopted in 1907, which the Israeli Supreme Court held binding on the State of Israel in the so-called "Elon Moreh" decision in 1979, and Geneva Convention IV, one of four Conventions adopted in 1949 to ensure that abuses practiced by the Axis powers could not be legally repeated. The Fourth Geneva Convention, "Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War," puts responsibility for its enforcement on all of the signatories (including the United States) by the following language:

The High Contracting Parties undertake to respect and to ensure respect for the present Convention in all circumstances.

The provision "to respect" means to abide by a Convention, the provision "to ensure respect," added in 1949, means that if one state is in violation, others are also in violation unless they take energetic measures to compel the erriing state to comply. Consequently, if Israel violates the Convention, other signatory states are accessories after the fact, unless they stop such practices. Although the United States has declared many Israeli practices unlawful or a violation of Palestinian human rights, it has utterly neglected its duty to stop these criminal acts or to allow the Security Council to do so.

The most directly pertinent violations by Israel of the Fourth Geneva Convention fall into the following catagories.

Pgs. 182-184

Then the author goes on to list and descibe these violations of the Fourth Geneva Convention (note I am only going to list the violations sans the author's description):

Implanting of settlements in the occupied territories.

Destruction of private property and humiliation of the residents.

Interference with religious rights.

Attacks on hospitals and hospital personnel.

Physical violence against protected persons.

Collective and guilt-by-association punishments.

Unjustifiable destruction of private property.

Seizure and plunder of private property.

Unlawful tax collections.

Unlawful deportations.

Closing of schools in the occupied areas.

Deprivation of procedural and substantive due process of law.

Commission of aggressive annexations.

Specification of grave breaches.

Pgs 184-187

And the author finishes this part of the book with this:

The horrible suffering imposed by the Nazis particularly on the Jewish people, their deportations from their homes, the seizure of their property without compensation, their enslavement, maltreatment, and slaughter, ought to have inspired the Israelis to make a particularly careful effort to observe these rules. Unhappily, current Israeli authorities now appear to be repeating most of the abuses the Geneva Convention were intended to prevent.

Pg 187.

I am not about the destruction of Israel but rather a change in the government and the correction of a "Jewish Democracy" into a multicultural democracy, a truly Western democracy. And it will take America to lower its chin and stiffen its upperlip and never to take up a passive stance against Israel and its violations of international law. The Zionist dream of a Jewish utopia and a (Jewish) "city on a hill" has failed.

Edited by B Jenkins
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Posted (edited)

I am not about the destruction of Israel but rather a change in the government and the correction of a "Jewish Democracy" into a multicultural democracy, a truly Western democracy.

That is what Israel IS, unlike the islamist regimes surrounding it.

In contrast to Israel, Hamas-run Gazah is an apartheid regime. Iran is an apartheid regime. Egypt under the Muslim Brothers is turning into an apartheid regime. The Syria that the Muslim Brothers/Al Quaeda "freedom fighters" will create is an apartheid regime. Saudi Arabia (the great supporter of the Syrian rebels) is an apartheid regime. In fact, all Shariah countries are apartheid regimes.

And you can bet your behind that a muslim-majority "one state solution" of the type that the PLO imagines would be an apartheid regime, where a male muslim is always priviliged versus non-males and non-muslims.

Chew on that, before parrotting your talking points again.

Edited by Zaphod222
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Posted (edited)

That is what Israel IS, unlike the islamist regimes surrounding it.

In contrast to Israel, Hamas-run Gazah is an apartheid regime. Iran is an apartheid regime. Egypt under the Muslim Brothers is turning into an apartheid regime. The Syria that the Muslim Brothers/Al Quaeda "freedom fighters" will create is an apartheid regime. Saudi Arabia (the great supporter of the Syrian rebels) is an apartheid regime. In fact, all Shariah countries are apartheid regimes.

And you can bet your behind that a muslim-majority "one state solution" of the type that the PLO imagines would be an apartheid regime, where a male muslim is always priviliged versus non-males and non-muslims.

Chew on that, before parrotting your talking points again.

No, I agree in part with your assessment on the Islamic regimes under Shariah law in the region. But Israel is not a Western democracy, it is a Jewish State and an ostensible democracy.

Edited by B Jenkins
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No, I agree in part with your assessment on the Islamic regimes under Shariah law in the region. But Israel is not a Western democracy, it is a Jewish State and an ostensible democracy.

Your solution leaves Israel as the 23rd Arab state. It isn't ever going to happen.

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Yes, Yam, we all know that only peaceful removal of the Israeli government is what BJ wants. It's easy enough to say but it refuses to admit the real consequences of the act of removing the safeguards that keep Israel secure. He and you as well, either do not understand (doubtful) or do not care what the consequences would be if the IDF was forced to remove from the Jordan Valley and the Golan.

I've never suggested the IDF be forced out of the Golan Heights so where do you figure that I don't care about that? Removed from the Jordan Valley? So Israel is under threat of invasion from Jordan now? Where do you get this stuff from? If Israel is worried about whatever it's worried about from the east it should be on its own eastern border not someone else's.

If Zionist Israel didn't try so hard to redefine the definition of Jewish and clusterfudge them all into a tiny strip of land I'm sure they'd be a lot more spread out in the world and living in any number of free countries able to practice their religion in peace and promote their ethnic gene pool reproduction techniques as they please. As for these bizarre ethnic and religious and cultural wars that you describe with so many words because Christians-for-Israel demand that millions of Jews must burn in the furnace of Armageddon - I have no interest in entertaining.

ETA as to the point of supporting the claim with quotes from him.... I cannot present what he has never had the integrity to spell out.

Of course you can't. That's why I asked.

Even what you ask for is unacceptable to them. They want ALL THE LAND.

Actually, polls have been taken about what they really want. You ignore the evidence and just make up your own stories.

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Posted (edited)

I've never suggested the IDF be forced out of the Golan Heights so where do you figure that I don't care about that? Removed from the Jordan Valley? So Israel is under threat of invasion from Jordan now? Where do you get this stuff from? If Israel is worried about whatever it's worried about from the east it should be on its own eastern border not someone else's.

If Zionist Israel didn't try so hard to redefine the definition of Jewish and clusterfudge them all into a tiny strip of land I'm sure they'd be a lot more spread out in the world and living in any number of free countries able to practice their religion in peace and promote their ethnic gene pool reproduction techniques as they please. As for these bizarre ethnic and religious and cultural wars that you describe with so many words because Christians-for-Israel demand that millions of Jews must burn in the furnace of Armageddon - I have no interest in entertaining.

Of course you can't. That's why I asked.

Actually, polls have been taken about what they really want. You ignore the evidence and just make up your own stories.

Were those polls in English or Arabic ? I only ask because their leaders have a funny way of translating between the two. Yes is no...up is down... that kind of thing. Edited by and then

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Were those polls in English or Arabic ? I only ask because their leaders have a funny way of translating between the two. Yes is no...up is down... that kind of thing.

What evidence do you have for this story? You saw those polls. You participated in those threads. Amnesia again, i from 1 to n.

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What evidence do you have for this story? You saw those polls. You participated in those threads. Amnesia again, i from 1 to n.

I'm not digging across MEMRI or AlJazeera for you Yam. You are unaware, I suppose, of Arafat and Abbas routinely giving one speech in English and another for the "home crowd" in Arabic on the same topic and the two being diametrically opposed? The polls you speak of WHATEVER they may have been about, do not disprove the lying of the Islamic crowd about their intentions in the M.E. Or is that their right in your opinion? Ends justifies the means and Israel is owed everything they can bring to bear against them..that kind of where we are here?

As for your constant harping about my veracity or believe-ability here's a clue - I DON'T CARE. If anyone here at UM doubts me enough to discredit what I say and believe then so be it. This isn't a court room. And just for the record, I ROUTINELY admit my mistakes - have no problem with doing so. I'm the first to admit I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Try it sometime - it's very liberating.

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The intent was never anti-Israel but to present images of Israel that most Americans and Europeans never have an opportunity to see on their televisions. It was an opportunity to present another side. The duly lollygagging of the IDF and Border Police to the active participation believe you me when that happens in the States it makes news around the world. My apologies, there was no anti-Israel intent.

Patently nonsensical claim. Check your local news coverage: Muslim Arab violence is hardly ever mentioned (like the ongoing rocket attacks from Gazah into Israel). But the moment Israel responds, it is reported as an "attack", and the reason for the response is only mentioned as a by-note, if at all. That goes for all the channels of your TV alphabet soup. So, precisely the opposite of your claim is true.

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Posted (edited)

No, I agree in part with your assessment on the Islamic regimes under Shariah law in the region. But Israel is not a Western democracy, it is a Jewish State and an ostensible democracy.

Israel (as the only country in the region) has free elections, respects human rights, and gives equal treatment to its citizens under the law to all its citizens. That to me sounds like the textbook definition of a Western democracy; where exactly do you disagree with that?

And before you bring it up, the West Bank is not Israel proper, it is a special situation. and pontificating about possible solutions for it would be an entirely different thread.

Edited by Zaphod222

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Israel (as the only country in the region) has free elections, respects human rights, and gives equal treatment to its citizens under the law to all its citizens. That to me sounds like the textbook definition of a Western democracy; where exactly do you disagree with that?

And before you bring it up, the West Bank is not Israel proper, it is a special situation. and pontificating about possible solutions for it would be an entirely different thread.

I would hope he disagrees with all three statements. That special situation is a human situation, so no respect for human rights there. You can't be a state for a single ethnic group or religion and give equal rights to people who aren't of that ethnic group or religion. The examples of this have been provided ad nauseum so I won't bother repeating it again; and homework is suggested. Israel isn't the only state in the Middle East to have free elections so that doesn't distinguish it.

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All talk of Israel not been an Apartheid state must be considered in the light of the fact that it occupies substantial foreign territory over which it imposes a different set of laws and rights to those offered to its own citizens. It allows those occupied citizens access to Israel for the purposes of work under a strictly limited set of rights. The Citizens of these occupied zones have no say in the rules under which they are administered, and no access to what could be considered a fair and impartial judicary. They are subject to summery arrest and imprisonment without access to the details of the charges and are routinely subjected to torture under interrogation.

This is directly comparable to the way in which the south African government administered the Townships which were nominally independent states under South African military control.

http://uk.zeebox.com/tv/episode/804669/storyville

Br Cornelius

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All talk of Israel not been an Apartheid state must be considered in the light of the fact that it occupies substantial foreign territory over which it imposes a different set of laws and rights to those offered to its own citizens. It allows those occupied citizens access to Israel for the purposes of work under a strictly limited set of rights. The Citizens of these occupied zones have no say in the rules under which they are administered, and no access to what could be considered a fair and impartial judicary. They are subject to summery arrest and imprisonment without access to the details of the charges and are routinely subjected to torture under interrogation.

This is directly comparable to the way in which the south African government administered the Townships which were nominally independent states under South African military control.

http://uk.zeebox.com...4669/storyville

Br Cornelius

And this entire situation could be alleviated if the Palestinians were willing to give up the right to all of Jerusalem and the right to destroy the Jewish state with millions of "refugees" in a right of return scheme. An answer could be found except there are too many vested interests working against it from both sides. Even with those in play I believe Israel would eventually be forced into an agreement IF the Palestinians gave on those two issues. I think that minor land swaps would be secondary in concern. Israel's leaders KNOW that a Palestinian state is essential for Israel to survive. So do the Palestinians. But the Palestinians seem fully willing to let time and demographics destroy the state of Israel. There will be a war that settles this issue before that happens.

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And this entire situation could be alleviated if the Palestinians were willing to give up the right to all of Jerusalem and the right to destroy the Jewish state with millions of "refugees" in a right of return scheme. An answer could be found except there are too many vested interests working against it from both sides. Even with those in play I believe Israel would eventually be forced into an agreement IF the Palestinians gave on those two issues. I think that minor land swaps would be secondary in concern. Israel's leaders KNOW that a Palestinian state is essential for Israel to survive. So do the Palestinians. But the Palestinians seem fully willing to let time and demographics destroy the state of Israel. There will be a war that settles this issue before that happens.

Israel's leaders are doing everything to ensure a Palestinian state is impossible. Look at a map already.

Palestinians are living in perpetual oppression by the state of Israel in the worst example of tyranny on the planet. Anyone who supports that is no lover of liberty. There is no excuse. I don't care what your domestic ideas are. You fail that bad when it's not your own self interests on the chopping block and you fail the acid test. Freedom is good enough for everyone. I suggest the US and Israeli government get out of peoples' ways and let them have it. Any state that needs terrorism, apartheid, sieges, bigotry and foreign welfare to keep itself propped up is a failure of a state.

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Israel's leaders are doing everything to ensure a Palestinian state is impossible. Look at a map already.

Palestinians are living in perpetual oppression by the state of Israel in the worst example of tyranny on the planet. Anyone who supports that is no lover of liberty. There is no excuse. I don't care what your domestic ideas are. You fail that bad when it's not your own self interests on the chopping block and you fail the acid test. Freedom is good enough for everyone. I suggest the US and Israeli government get out of peoples' ways and let them have it. Any state that needs terrorism, apartheid, sieges, bigotry and foreign welfare to keep itself propped up is a failure of a state.

And all those things happen in a vacuum, right? There is no cause that justifies any of it in your estimation, correct? Whatever Yam.

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"Doesn't happen in a vacuum" is just rhetorical fluff that can be used to excuse anything.

Oppression of innocent populations is the worst problem there is. No lesser problem justifies it. Israeli hypocrisy certainly doesn't justify it.

Anyone who supports collective punishment is the greatest proponent of tyranny I've ever seen. There are better uses for American taxpayer wealth than propping up tyranny, such as eradicating it wherever it rears its ugly head. The opportunity cost of paying for Israel is immense. We have the power to tremendous good in the world, but we blow it on aiding terrorists.

Back before all this Zionist grease slathered through our media, when they called Zionist behavior what it was:

king-david-hotel-3.jpg

Well, there were people there other than Palestinians! Now every time Zionists target a school, hospital, police station, hotel or neighborhood, it's just Palestinians. What's the big deal.

It should have been obvious that rewarding terrorists with their own state was a bad idea and just look at the results. Propping up this man-made disaster for another day is nothing I deserve to be responsible for paying for. You should be free to spend your money on what you want, I should be free to spend mine on what I want. There is no authority for the US government to subsidize terrorist regimes in the world. That includes Israel, Egypt, Palestine, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Saudi Arabia.

If security is the excuse, welcome international peacekeepers. If the US opened up its nuclear silos and was willing to risk World War 3 with the Soviet Union over Soviet intervention in Israel's wars, it should also be able to scrounge up an international coalition of security forces to end Zionism's limp excuse for terrorism overnight.

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What you so casually call "collective punishment" I fully support because it stands in the way of people who otherwise would butcher Israeli civilians as easily as they would sheep. End of discussion.

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The is the chicken and there is the egg, but in this case the occupation came first.

Occupied people have a right to resist their occupier under international law. Its just to bad that the USA has made the UN an ineffective vehicle for intervention to punish the crimes of Israel against an occupied people.

Br Cornelius

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What you so casually call "collective punishment" I fully support because it stands in the way of people who otherwise would butcher Israeli civilians as easily as they would sheep. End of discussion.

All I get for delivering the principle any real American should be able to accept is another tyrannical Zionist garbage spew. If people hate being oppressed and fight back, maybe they should. Not everyone is going to be a coward in the face of your favorite terrorists. Get over it.

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