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Erikl

Is Israel an Apartheid state?

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What does this mean?

543509_10151461496860708_1786406084_n.jpg

maybe just maybe ... someone else might have got a point ....

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Treating one group of people apart from another may or may not be apartheid, but I still know it's wrong, just as I know apartheid is wrong.

Israel codified its policy in writing and so grants rights to people because of their ethnicity. Who else in the world does this? The Vatican? Anybody? If Israel wants to be a Jewish state and we're actually okay with that, it shouldn't have Arabs living in it. But it does because of its conquests and acquisitions of surrounding land over the years. Eating its next-door neighbor's innards every time somebody else in the region starts trouble. How convenient! Is this any way of expressing gratitude after they were so generously granted statehood the way they were? Israel sends the giant bulldozer in and destroy a doctor's home with his wife and children outside shrieking in the street! What a country! And of course the West is going to find bulldozing private property instantly agreeable, primarily because their homes aren't the ones being bulldozed, and also because it gets zero mainstream media coverage. That doctor's yard and his family home are going to be better used by the Jews. Terrific.

Palestine remains the worst ongoing human rights violation in the world. Gaza is the most crowded place on earth, it's an open-air concentration camp housing 800,000 children, all of them innocent of any wrongdoing. What kind of a person does it take not to care about that?

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What does that have to do with Apartheid? :huh:

It seems you've resorted to yet another childish game - "find whats unique in Israel". I can ask why don't the British have a constitution as well, or why Cyprus has undeclared borders.

None of this has got anything to do with the topic here. Which just proves my exact point in the last few posts here - you do not response to any trivial facts given to you, you just post your own stuff, tons of it, in hope it will cover the fact you didn't response.

As for the rest of what you've written - I'll tackle it later, most of it as got nothing to do with apartheid. As I said before, today we work here in Israel, and I'm off to my job, to be managed by a Palestinian boss, as a token of Israeli apartheid :lol:.

Israel is a Jewish state. It has no written constitution in order to re-enforce its Jewish identity. It has never declared its borders because its ultimate goal is to expand those borders for the Greater Israel (and well, it occupies the West Bank and has the Gaza Strip under blockade and siege). The UN recently and accurately described Israel's occupation of- and settlements in- the West Bank as a "crawling annexation".

Hope everyone takes the time to read these two articulate articles on the subject of Israel and apartheid:

http://palestinechronicle.com/old/view_article_details.php?id=17009

http://www.mediamonitors.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&expire=&urlID=15286&fb=Y&partnerID=31

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Wow Yamato - I haven't been to this forum for few days and I see you and Jenkings have turned this thread into the sci-fi channel, with a nutjob conspiracy special! :lol:

Yamato, you are so brain washed as to actually see facts as they are when presented to you plain and simple.

Yes I gave you quotes to the Israeli Arabs entry on wikipedia. But just in the beginning, and through out all the article, it says, plain and simple, that they are Palestinians. The Palestinians themselves see them as such, Israeli Palestinian member of the Israeli parliament see themselves as representing not only Israeli Palestinians but the voice of the Palestinians living in the disputed territories.

You can continue with you mish mash of yapping and ranting as much as you like, throwing big words such as "liberty", "human rights" without anything to do with the subject of this thread, but the truth is you've proven wrong here, plain and simple. I do not care if a person is a Jew or a Palestinian, but as we do talk about Israel's treatment of it's own Palestinian citizens, ofcourse it has anything to do with that. That's the topic of this thread.

Seeing you pathetic attempts to paint Israel as an apatheid state just makes me look at you as two aliens from some other world. Just children playing games and making up stuff. Who cares - it seems you don't, when it comes to facts.

But hey, tomorrow I'm going to work (we start our working day on Sundays here). Oh, did I mention my boss at work, in a IT software company, is a Muslim Palestinian? Oops. Guess that apartheid is being enforced so hard, that Israeli Palestinians can be the boss of Israeli Jews in Apartheid Israel :lol:.

Give me a break :rolleyes:.

I didn't paint Israel as an apartheid state, I said whether they are or not doesn't even matter. What Palestinians are going through on their own soil is a terrible case of apartheid. How Israel treats Arab citizens in a Jewish state is another thing. Apartheid or not, you can't have universal rights with an Arab population and a Jewish state at the same time; they are mutually exclusive and that proves itself by way of policy in fact after fact that's been presented to you.

Now the discussion in Zionist circles is whether or not to strip Arabs of their citizenship for not supporting the Zionist state enough. Whatever, you are referring to Arab Israelis, or the backwards but still correct "Israeli Arabs", not "Israeli Palestinians".

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Posted (edited)

Israel is a Jewish state.

In the same way that the United Kingdom is a Christian state. In case you don't know, being a Jew now days mean not only that you follow Judaism, but that you belong to an ethno-religious group, in much the same way as Armenians, Copts, Samaritans, Zoroastrians, and many other ancient nations couple religion with ethnicity. To someone coming from a Christian or Muslim background such as yourself, even if your society is now totally secular, it's hard to grasp, as both Christianity and Islam see themselves as universal religions - for this reason back in the middle ages Christian Germans and Christian Poles could go to war against each other, as the fact that they were both Christian did not mean the belong to the same nation. That also pretty much dictated modern European nationhood. However, for some people, their religion went hand to hand to define what they are - this is not unique to Jews, but also to Egyptian Copts, Zoroastrians (like Freddy Mercury), and to Samaritans. So Israel is a secular Jewish state - most of it's Jewish population is secular, and so it sees it's Jewishness in national view, not some medieval theocratic way.

I myself eat pork and until recently mixed meat with dairy (as I've grown older I developed lactose intolerance :( ).

It has no written constitution in order to re-enforce its Jewish identity

Israel doesn't re-enforce Jewish identity on any of it's minorities.

It's like saying that the UK or the US re-enforce Christian identity because Christmas is a national holiday and Sunday is a day off.

In Israel, all religious minorities are free to observe their own religion, and they do, and their respective holidays are respected.

Each religion minority is also recognized legally - there are Sharia courts and Jewish courts to decide in religious matters between people (for example - religious ceremonies and such) and they both get funded by the government.

Even more so, Arabic is one of the two official languages in Israel - while France is 10% Arab and didn't do the same.

And we have here another example of you avoiding responses - I said that the UK doesn't have a constitution as well. Is that because the British actually want to re-enforce Christian identity? :rolleyes:

. It has never declared its borders because its ultimate goal is to expand those borders for the Greater Israel (and well, it occupies the West Bank and has the Gaza Strip under blockade and siege).

Oh now you've resorted to quote Al-Qaeda directly?

In the meantime, Israel is the only country in the region to actually give off land - some of it several times it's size - ie the Sinai peninsula to Egypt - for peace, and sometimes even just to avoid loss of human life. Actually, in the past 30 years, we retreated from Sinai, Lebanon and Gaza. If that's how you build an empire, then I guess we've got it all backwards now did we? :lol::wacko:

Edited by Erikl

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Posted (edited)

Quoting Chief Rabbi of South Africa, Warren Goldstein, regarding the Israel-Apartheid lie:

"In the State of Israel all citizens – Jew and Arab – are equal before the law. Israel has no Population Registration Act, no Group Areas Act, no Mixed Marriages and Immorality Act, no Separate Representation of Voters Act, no Separate Amenities Act, no pass laws or any of the myriad apartheid laws. Israel is a vibrant liberal democracy with a free press and independent judiciary, and accords full political, religious and other human rights to all its people, including its more than 1 million Arab citizens, many of whom hold positions of authority including that of cabinet minister, member of parliament and judge at every level — including that of the Supreme Court. All citizens vote on the same roll in regular, multiparty elections; there are Arab parties and Arab members of other parties in Israel’s parliament. Arabs and Jews share all public facilities, including hospitals and malls, buses, cinemas and parks. And, archbishop, that includes universities and opera houses."

And even more quotes:

"the equivalence simply isn't true. Israel is not an apartheid state. Israel's human rights record in the occupied territories, its settlement policy, and its firm responses to terror may sometimes warrant criticism. And Prime Minister Ehud Olmert himself recently warned that Israel could face an apartheid-style struggle if it did not reach a deal with the Palestinians and end the occupation in the West Bank. But racism and discrimination do not form the rationale for Israel's policies and actions. Arab citizens of Israel can vote and serve in the Knesset; black South Africans could not vote until 1994. There are no laws in Israel that discriminate against Arab citizens or separate them from Jews. Unlike the United Kingdom, Greece, and Norway, Israel has no state religion, and it recognizes Arabic as one of its official languages."

—Kadalie, Rhoda and Julia Bertelsmann, black South Africans whose families fought against apartheid

Calling Israel an 'apartheid state' is absolute nonsense. You might have structures that look like apartheid, but they're not. The barrier fence has nothing to do with apartheid and everything to do with Israel's self-defense. There was no such barrier until the second intifada, when people were being murdered on the highways. And the country does not dehumanize its minority in the sense of apartheid. The issues are totally different."

Malcolm Hedding, a South African minister and fighter against South African apartheid [121]

Do Israel's Arab citizens suffer from disadvantage? You better believe it. Do African Americans 10 minutes from the Berkeley campus suffer from disadvantage – you better believe it, too. So should we launch a Berkeley Apartheid Week, or should we seek real ways to better our societies and make opportunity more available...Vilification and false labeling is a blind alley that is unjust and takes us nowhere...You deny Israel the fundamental right of every society to defend itself...Your criticism is willfully hypocritical....You are betraying the moderate Muslims and Jews who are working to achieve peace...To the organizers of Israel Apartheid Week I would like to say: If Israel were an apartheid state, I would not have been appointed here, nor would I have chosen to take upon myself this duty.

Ishmael Khaldi, US Pacific Northwest deputy consul of Israel, and Bedouin Muslim, in response to Israel Apartheid Week[251]

And more are quotes from the wikipedia entry on the analogue.

To summarize - it's utter nonsense.

Edited by Erikl

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Quoting Chief Rabbi of South Africa, Warren Goldstein, regarding the Israel-Apartheid lie:

"In the State of Israel all citizens – Jew and Arab – are equal before the law.

Then the settlements are not the state of Israel. So get the hell out.

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Then the settlements are not the state of Israel. So get the hell out.

Ofcourse not - and Israel have never annexed them. The area is a disputed territory - disputed because two sides have claims of ownership. The thing is, in international law, usually an already established country has precedent over a group of militias. However, being that there are 22 hostile countries to Israel (the Arab countries), with a big international influence (through oil and Islam, which in total is a majority religion in 53 countries around the world), the notion that the Palestinians have the exact same equal rights, has for some reason became accepted. It is unique in that this isn't the case in any other disputed region in the world, because no other country in the world has so many enemies wishing for its disappearance.

In the meantime, in Israel, it has become a consensus that the Palestinians should have their own state as well, alongside Israel, in the disputed territories. The only difference is what part of the disputed territories should we give up, but it's clear and simple that most of it will be given to a future Palestinian state. That's the current Zionist consensus. The settlements themselves sit on less than 7% of the disputed territories. about 97% of the Palestinians in the disputed territories are currently self-governed by either Hamas or the PLO, so most of them are not occupied. Currently only 60% of the West Bank is under Israeli Military management (known also as Area C), while that is indeed the majority of the land in the West Bank, it is thinly populated - only 150,000 Palestinians as opposed to 300,000 Israelis. And no, that's not the result of ethnic cleansing or anything, but that rural area was thinly populated in first place - the entire idea of the Oslo accords was to give most of the Palestinians self-rule.

There are some in the right corner of what is considered legitimate part of the political spectrum in Israel that call for the annexation of all of Area C, and to offer all of the 150,000 Palestinians living there full Israeli citizenship. However, no one in the legitimate political spectrum of Israel calls for the entire annexation, only fanatical right wingers or hard left communists (that call for one state solution). No one takes these calls seriously and they are so radical that they have no representation in the Israeli parliament.

All in all - that's still got nothing to do with apartheid. The Jim Crow laws in the United States were similar to apartheid. The fact that Palestinian refugees are kept in camps, stripped of all their civil rights in neighboring Arab countries (Lebanon, Syria etc.) is similar to an apartheid. In Israel, Palestinians are free and equal citizens. As I said before, my boss is one. We are born in the same hospitals, taken care by the same doctors, study in the same universities, answer to the same judicial system, work in the same work places, and vote for and into the same parliament. That's obviously NOT apartheid, no matter how hard you or your demagogue friend Jenkings try to put it. Are you so dishonest as to admit you were wrong, or do you simply try to fool other here and brainwash them?

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Ofcourse not - and Israel have never annexed them. The area is a disputed territory - disputed because two sides have claims of ownership. The thing is, in international law, usually an already established country has precedent over a group of militias. However, being that there are 22 hostile countries to Israel (the Arab countries), with a big international influence (through oil and Islam, which in total is a majority religion in 53 countries around the world), the notion that the Palestinians have the exact same equal rights, has for some reason became accepted. It is unique in that this isn't the case in any other disputed region in the world, because no other country in the world has so many enemies wishing for its disappearance.

In the meantime, in Israel, it has become a consensus that the Palestinians should have their own state as well, alongside Israel, in the disputed territories. The only difference is what part of the disputed territories should we give up, but it's clear and simple that most of it will be given to a future Palestinian state. That's the current Zionist consensus. The settlements themselves sit on less than 7% of the disputed territories. about 97% of the Palestinians in the disputed territories are currently self-governed by either Hamas or the PLO, so most of them are not occupied. Currently only 60% of the West Bank is under Israeli Military management (known also as Area C), while that is indeed the majority of the land in the West Bank, it is thinly populated - only 150,000 Palestinians as opposed to 300,000 Israelis. And no, that's not the result of ethnic cleansing or anything, but that rural area was thinly populated in first place - the entire idea of the Oslo accords was to give most of the Palestinians self-rule.

There are some in the right corner of what is considered legitimate part of the political spectrum in Israel that call for the annexation of all of Area C, and to offer all of the 150,000 Palestinians living there full Israeli citizenship. However, no one in the legitimate political spectrum of Israel calls for the entire annexation, only fanatical right wingers or hard left communists (that call for one state solution). No one takes these calls seriously and they are so radical that they have no representation in the Israeli parliament.

All in all - that's still got nothing to do with apartheid. The Jim Crow laws in the United States were similar to apartheid. The fact that Palestinian refugees are kept in camps, stripped of all their civil rights in neighboring Arab countries (Lebanon, Syria etc.) is similar to an apartheid. In Israel, Palestinians are free and equal citizens. As I said before, my boss is one. We are born in the same hospitals, taken care by the same doctors, study in the same universities, answer to the same judicial system, work in the same work places, and vote for and into the same parliament. That's obviously NOT apartheid, no matter how hard you or your demagogue friend Jenkings try to put it. Are you so dishonest as to admit you were wrong, or do you simply try to fool other here and brainwash them?

Oppressive policies that discourage people from living in certain parts of the country is a great way to curb population growth. There's an epidemic of video evidence showing the harassment, murder, wrongful imprisonment and intimidation Palestinians put up with in this circus of Israeli control. You've captured the rural areas and cut off densely populated ones like Gaza and E. Jerusalem. Primed the pump for the big takeover, that's what it looks like to me.

The issue is not about amnesty or how governments treat asylum seekers. That's a whole other topic but worth discussing in a new thread. I might put up a new discussion about Israel's racist record on asylum seekers from Africa. These people can't even get refugee status in Israel. They're being forcibly extradited back to their home countries to be raped and murdered. Getting back on topic, Palestinians don't have rights on their own soil, like the right of return, and this is thanks to the Israeli government. Complaining about Palestinian living conditions outside of Israel/Palestine while being the cause of the problem is pretty bold of you. Stop causing the problem and then your complaints about what somebody else is doing might matter.

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Q: Does anyone know how to cut & paste from PDFs?

Open the PDF document in adobe acrobat reader. Click the button: "selection tool for text and images". Select the text that you want to quote, copy and paste. This is the easiest method but the formatting may not be preserved.

Result:

FACT SHEET – 08 December 2010

Discriminatory laws against Palestinians living in Israel

Ever since the founding of the Zionist state of Israel in Palestine in 1948, Israeli governments have been trying to make life as uncomfortable as possible for the indigenous Palestinian population. The aim has been to create the circumstances whereby Palestinians will leave their homeland, willingly or unwillingly, in what Israeli historian Ilan Pappe calls “the ethnic cleansing of Palestine”. That illegal and immoral process has been ongoing for more than sixty years. Such “transfer” of the Palestinians has, in fact, been going on since before the state of Israel came into being. More than three-quarters of a million Palestinians were driven from their homes before and after 15th May 1948 by Zionist forces, who went on to wipe more than 540 Arab towns and villages from the map. The Israeli town of Sderot, for example, lauded by Israel and its supporters for its stoicism in the face of rockets being fired from Gaza, was built on the ruins of the Palestinian village of Najd, whose 700 inhabitants were driven out by Jewish militias on 13th May 1948.

Not all expulsions have been carried out by military force; successive Israeli governments have passed racist laws to legalise their discrimination against Palestinians as part of their strategy to “cleanse” the state of non-Jews. This paper sets out the details of such existing and proposed laws and illustrates why the struggle for justice for Palestinians cannot be limited to those living under occupation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

1. On 5th July 1950, the Israeli Knesset (parliament) approved the “law of return” under which all Jews, wherever their place of birth and whatever their nationality, were granted the “right” to migrate to Israel. This “right” also applied to the Jews who had migrated to Palestine during the British Mandate period and before, as well as those who were born in Palestine.

2. Thereafter followed the “citizenship law”, passed by the Knesset on 1st April 1952 and under which those immigrants are granted Israeli citizenship immediately. The purpose is clearly to give priority to the Jewish character of the state (so-called Judaisation) in Palestine and the confiscation/eradication of the land’s Palestinian identity.

The Zionist occupation authorities have imposed on the Arab population the need to obtain Israeli citizenship, without which they are considered “absent” and lose their right to their property and access to even the most basic civil amenities. Moreover, despite the imposition of Israeli citizenship on the remaining Arab population in Israel, emergency regulations and military rule deprive them of most of the legal rights and privileges enjoyed by their Jewish co-citizens, so that the Arabs are de facto second-class citizens

3. The “intifada law” is designed to prevent Palestinians wounded and otherwise affected by the operations of the Israel Defence Forces from taking legal action against the State of Israel. The exception is if damage has occurred due to negligence or an accident, or if a Palestinian is injured in any way while in detention.

Under this law, all claims lodged in Israeli courts by Palestinians seeking compensation for damage inflicted by Israeli forces since the “Al-Aqsa Intifada” began in September 2000 are cancelled. The Israeli government has justified it by claiming that the thousands of lawsuits made by Palestinians to-date would require compensation payments totalling millions of shekels.

FACT SHEET – 08 December 2010

The Central regulation in the “intifada law” says that “in spite of the other laws, the state [of Israel] is not responsible for the damages [inflicted upon Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip] resulting from confrontations and because of actions carried out by the Israeli security forces”. Israel is not at war with a State of Palestine; it is occupying Palestinian territories and it isn’t free to absolve itself and its soldiers of any responsibility for damage done to innocent people in the occupied areas for which the government is responsible. If Israel wants to be free from civil or criminal liability, all it has to do is withdraw from the occupied territories. However, Israel wants the power, authority and hegemony of an occupying state but without the responsibilities. As it now stands, Israeli law practically encourages the occupation soldiers to commit crimes against civilians in the knowledge that they will not be called to account for their actions.

4. Another “citizenship law” deals directly with the reunification of Arab families in Israel where one spouse is a Palestinian who is not a citizen of Israel. Under this law, the Israeli authorities prevent an Arab man or woman from bringing his or her spouse to live in Israel when the latter is a Palestinian from the West Bank, Gaza Strip or further afield.

The Israeli authorities will consider requests for family reunification in which Palestinian men are over the age of 35 and Palestinian women are over 25 years. The law also defines the age of children who are allowed to enter the country accompanied by their parents.

It is worth mentioning that the Knesset has made several amendments to the citizenship law to prevent the reunification of Arab families in which one spouse is a Palestinian from the West Bank or Gaza. According to data published recently in Israel, tens of thousands of people from the members of these families will be affected negatively by the enactment of this law.

If you want to preserve the formatting (paragraphs, bold, underline, etc. but not graphics) then you will need to first convert the PDF document into MS-Word format. If you have adobe acrobat pro or a conversion tool then you can do the conversion locally, if not then you can do it online for free. There are many websites for that, a good one is http://convertonline...DFToWORDEN.aspx . Visit this link, upload your PDF document, open the converted MS-Word file in MS-Word application, select and copy the text you want to quote, click "More Reply Options" button below the post reply box of this forum to display formatting buttons, click the "Paste From Word" button, paste the copied text, click OK. You might need to edit out graphic placeholders later.

Result:

FACT SHEET – 08 December 2010

Discriminatory laws against Palestinians living in Israel

Ever since the founding of the Zionist state of Israel in Palestine in 1948, Israeli governments have been trying to make life as uncomfortable as possible for the indigenous Palestinian population. The aim has been to create the circumstances whereby Palestinians will leave their homeland, willingly or unwillingly, in what Israeli historian Ilan Pappe calls “the ethnic cleansing of Palestine”. That illegal and immoral process has been ongoing for more than sixty years. Such “transfer” of the Palestinians has, in fact, been going on since before the state of Israel came into being. More than three-quarters of a million Palestinians were driven from their homes before and after 15th May 1948 by Zionist forces, who went on to wipe more than 540 Arab towns and villages from the map. The Israeli town of Sderot, for example, lauded by Israel and its supporters for its stoicism in the face of rockets being fired from Gaza, was built on the ruins of the Palestinian village of Najd, whose 700 inhabitants were driven out by Jewish militias on 13th May 1948.

Not all expulsions have been carried out by military force; successive Israeli governments have passed racist laws to legalise their discrimination against Palestinians as part of their strategy to “cleanse” the state of non-Jews. This paper sets out the details of such existing and proposed laws and illustrates why the struggle for justice for Palestinians cannot be limited to those living under occupation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

  1. On 5th July 1950, the Israeli Knesset (parliament) approved the “law of return” under which all Jews, wherever their place of birth and whatever their nationality, were granted the “right” to migrate to Israel. This “right” also applied to the Jews who had migrated to Palestine during the British Mandate period and before, as well as those who were born in Palestine.
  2. Thereafter followed the “citizenship law”, passed by the Knesset on 1st April 1952 and under which those immigrants are granted Israeli citizenship immediately. The purpose is clearly to give priority to the Jewish character of the state (so-called Judaisation) in Palestine and the confiscation/eradication of the land’s Palestinian identity.
    The Zionist occupation authorities have imposed on the Arab population the need to obtain Israeli citizenship, without which they are considered “absent” and lose their right to their property and access to even the most basic civil amenities. Moreover, despite the imposition of Israeli citizenship on the remaining Arab population in Israel, emergency regulations and military rule deprive them of most of the legal rights and privileges enjoyed by their Jewish co-citizens, so that the Arabs are de facto second-class citizens
  3. The “intifada law” is designed to prevent Palestinians wounded and otherwise affected by the operations of the Israel Defence Forces from taking legal action against the State of Israel. The exception is if damage has occurred due to negligence or an accident, or if a Palestinian is injured in any way while in detention.
    Under this law, all claims lodged in Israeli courts by Palestinians seeking compensation for damage inflicted by Israeli forces since the “Al-Aqsa Intifada” began in September 2000 are cancelled. The Israeli government has justified it by claiming that the thousands of lawsuits made by Palestinians to-date would require compensation payments totalling millions of shekels.
    The Central regulation in the “intifada law” says that “in spite of the other laws, the state [of Israel] is not responsible for the damages [inflicted upon Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip] resulting from confrontations and because of actions carried out by the Israeli security forces”. Israel is not at war with a State of Palestine; it is occupying Palestinian territories and it isn’t free to absolve itself and its soldiers of any responsibility for damage done to innocent people in the occupied areas for which the government is responsible. If Israel wants to be free from civil or criminal liability, all it has to do is withdraw from the occupied territories. However, Israel wants the power, authority and hegemony of an occupying state but without the responsibilities. As it now stands, Israeli law practically encourages the occupation soldiers to commit crimes against civilians in the knowledge that they will not be called to account for their actions.
  4. Another “citizenship law” deals directly with the reunification of Arab families in Israel where one spouse is a Palestinian who is not a citizen of Israel. Under this law, the Israeli authorities prevent an Arab man or woman from bringing his or her spouse to live in Israel when the latter is a Palestinian from the West Bank, Gaza Strip or further afield.
    The Israeli authorities will consider requests for family reunification in which Palestinian men are over the age of 35 and Palestinian women are over 25 years. The law also defines the age of children who are allowed to enter the country accompanied by their parents.
    It is worth mentioning that the Knesset has made several amendments to the citizenship law to prevent the reunification of Arab families in which one spouse is a Palestinian from the West Bank or Gaza. According to data published recently in Israel, tens of thousands of people from the members of these families will be affected negatively by the enactment of this law.
  5. Israeli law prohibits the Jewish National Fund to sell or lease land to non-Jews. The Ehud Olmert government, of which the Israeli Labour Party was part, proposed this law which overrode a decision of Israel's Supreme Court which ruled that non-Jews could buy and lease land belonging to the JNF, which owns millions of acres of land.
  6. Jewish-led local authorities have the legal right to prevent Arabs from living in areas of influence. This law was passed after the local council in Rakefet refused to allow a Palestinian couple – Israeli citizens - to settle in the town, claiming that “the absorption of an Arab family would deter other Jews from living there”.

I think IP.Board does not support embedded PDFs yet. VBulletin already supports them with [PDF] link.pdf [/PDF] bbcode.

Spamming attempts?

"Spammer" is a new addition in the ever-expanding list of straw man accusations like "Racist" ,"Jew-hater", "Anti-Semite", "Propagandist", "Holocaust Denier" and so on... for anyone that speaks up against Zionist atrocities. Hahaha, Hilarious!

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In the same way that the United Kingdom is a Christian state. In case you don't know, being a Jew now days mean not only that you follow Judaism, but that you belong to an ethno-religious group, in much the same way as Armenians, Copts, Samaritans, Zoroastrians, and many other ancient nations couple religion with ethnicity. To someone coming from a Christian or Muslim background such as yourself, even if your society is now totally secular, it's hard to grasp, as both Christianity and Islam see themselves as universal religions - for this reason back in the middle ages Christian Germans and Christian Poles could go to war against each other, as the fact that they were both Christian did not mean the belong to the same nation. That also pretty much dictated modern European nationhood. However, for some people, their religion went hand to hand to define what they are - this is not unique to Jews, but also to Egyptian Copts, Zoroastrians (like Freddy Mercury), and to Samaritans. So Israel is a secular Jewish state - most of it's Jewish population is secular, and so it sees it's Jewishness in national view, not some medieval theocratic way.

I myself eat pork and until recently mixed meat with dairy (as I've grown older I developed lactose intolerance :( ).

I said just what I meant, Israel is not simply a nation... it is a Jewish... state.

Israel doesn't re-enforce Jewish identity on any of it's minorities.

It's like saying that the UK or the US re-enforce Christian identity because Christmas is a national holiday and Sunday is a day off.

In Israel, all religious minorities are free to observe their own religion, and they do, and their respective holidays are respected.

Each religion minority is also recognized legally - there are Sharia courts and Jewish courts to decide in religious matters between people (for example - religious ceremonies and such) and they both get funded by the government.

Even more so, Arabic is one of the two official languages in Israel - while France is 10% Arab and didn't do the same.

No, lacking a constitution basically institutionalizes discrimination and inequality.

And we have here another example of you avoiding responses - I said that the UK doesn't have a constitution as well. Is that because the British actually want to re-enforce Christian identity? :rolleyes:

Oh now you've resorted to quote Al-Qaeda directly?

In the meantime, Israel is the only country in the region to actually give off land - some of it several times it's size - ie the Sinai peninsula to Egypt - for peace, and sometimes even just to avoid loss of human life. Actually, in the past 30 years, we retreated from Sinai, Lebanon and Gaza. If that's how you build an empire, then I guess we've got it all backwards now did we? :lol::wacko:

Al-Qaeda? WTH? Haven't you heard of "Eretz Israel" (translated "Greater Israel"?

Israel invaded lands partitioned to Palestinians by the UN from 1947 through 1949 via Plan Dalet. Israel invaded Egypt twice, once in 1956 and once again in 1967 both times Israel conquered the Sinai peninsula. Israel invaded the Gaza Strip and West Bank once in 1967 and has occupied the latter ever since. Israel invaded Syria in 1967 and illegally "annexed" or rather has occupied the Golan Heights ever since, Israel claims to have legally annexed the Golan Heights but the whole international community claims Israel illegally occupies the Golan Heights. Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 and occupied it until 2000, 18 years later before withdrawing back to the international borders.

I recommend everyone read the real history of Israel's history: http://nido-del-cuco.blogspot.com/2009/04/mitos-y-hechos-sobre-las-guerras-de.html

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Posted (edited)

I said just what I meant, Israel is not simply a nation... it is a Jewish... state.

Wow, you completely ignored every I wrote. It is kind of a nag for you and Yamato - you raise a false point, I refute it, then instead of responding to the fact it was just refuted, you ignore it completely and just go along and spread you propaganda. We're not here to listen to your monologues you know.

Israel is Jewish in the same way that Poland is Polish and Norway is Norwegian. Jews are seen not only as members of religion but also as an ethnicity, or a nation. Right of return to Jews is nothing special to Israel, but is applied in many other nations with big diaspora - Armenia, Italy, Germany, etc..

No, lacking a constitution basically institutionalizes discrimination and inequality.

Really? Oh well, I guess the UK has also institutionalize discrimination and inequality, as seen here:

"Unlike many other nations, the UK has no single constitutional document. This is sometimes expressed by stating that it has an uncodified or "unwritten" constitution.[2] Much of the British constitution is embodied in written documents, within statutes, court judgments and treaties. The constitution has other unwritten sources, including parliamentaryconstitutional conventions (as laid out in Erskine May) and royal prerogatives."

http://en.wikipedia...._United_Kingdom

To read more, you can look at the article about Uncodified constitution:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncodified_constitution

This is exactly the same as in Israel. There is no actual written document called a constitution, but a set of laws called Basic Laws, used and respected as a constitution. And what does that have anything to do with Apartheid or this topic anyhow, beats me.

Al-Qaeda? WTH? Haven't you heard of "Eretz Israel" (translated "Greater Israel"?

Yep, al-Qaeda, as you resort into accusing Israel in the same conspiracy theories. Israel has actually been giving away land in the last 40 years, every land it occupied it eventually retreated from, except for the West Bank, which is a disputed territory. Israel retreated from the Sinai peninsula in 1982, a territory more than two times the size of Israel. From Lebanon in 2000. From the Gaza Strip in 2005. It's actually the only country in the region to give away land. No other county around it has done so since 1948.

Edited by Erikl

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Wow, you completely ignored every I wrote. It is kind of a nag for you and Yamato - you raise a false point, I refute it, then instead of responding to the fact it was just refuted, you ignore it completely and just go along and spread you propaganda. We're not here to listen to your monologues you know.

Israel is Jewish in the same way that Poland is Polish and Norway is Norwegian. Jews are seen not only as members of religion but also as an ethnicity, or a nation. Right of return to Jews is nothing special to Israel, but is applied in many other nations with big diaspora - Armenia, Italy, Germany, etc..

Really? Oh well, I guess the UK has also institutionalize discrimination and inequality, as seen here:

"Unlike many other nations, the UK has no single constitutional document. This is sometimes expressed by stating that it has an uncodified or "unwritten" constitution.[2] Much of the British constitution is embodied in written documents, within statutes, court judgments and treaties. The constitution has other unwritten sources, including parliamentaryconstitutional conventions (as laid out in Erskine May) and royal prerogatives."

http://en.wikipedia...._United_Kingdom

To read more, you can look at the article about Uncodified constitution:

http://en.wikipedia....ed_constitution

This is exactly the same as in Israel. There is no actual written document called a constitution, but a set of laws called Basic Laws, used and respected as a constitution. And what does that have anything to do with Apartheid or this topic anyhow, beats me.

Yep, al-Qaeda, as you resort into accusing Israel in the same conspiracy theories. Israel has actually been giving away land in the last 40 years, every land it occupied it eventually retreated from, except for the West Bank, which is a disputed territory. Israel retreated from the Sinai peninsula in 1982, a territory more than two times the size of Israel. From Lebanon in 2000. From the Gaza Strip in 2005. It's actually the only country in the region to give away land. No other county around it has done so since 1948.

Erikl when one starts from the premise that Israel is an illegitimate entity then all sorts of wonderful moral convolutions become possible. My biggest problem with this lot is that they do not have the integrity to just tell the truth and say they believe Israel should not exist at all. AND that they agree with whatever means are required to "set things right". I guess they feel, in their heart of hearts that if they do not SAY it then they cannot be guilty when the bloodshed happens.
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Posted (edited)

Wow, you completely ignored every I wrote. It is kind of a nag for you and Yamato - you raise a false point, I refute it, then instead of responding to the fact it was just refuted, you ignore it completely and just go along and spread you propaganda. We're not here to listen to your monologues you know.

Israel is Jewish in the same way that Poland is Polish and Norway is Norwegian. Jews are seen not only as members of religion but also as an ethnicity, or a nation. Right of return to Jews is nothing special to Israel, but is applied in many other nations with big diaspora - Armenia, Italy, Germany, etc..

Saying Israel is a Jewish STATE... what does that say of the indigeneous peoples that have lived in Palestine for 1,300 years prior to the creation of the State of Israel?

Really? Oh well, I guess the UK has also institutionalize discrimination and inequality, as seen here:

"Unlike many other nations, the UK has no single constitutional document. This is sometimes expressed by stating that it has an uncodified or "unwritten" constitution.[2] Much of the British constitution is embodied in written documents, within statutes, court judgments and treaties. The constitution has other unwritten sources, including parliamentaryconstitutional conventions (as laid out in Erskine May) and royal prerogatives."

http://en.wikipedia...._United_Kingdom

To read more, you can look at the article about Uncodified constitution:

http://en.wikipedia....ed_constitution

This is exactly the same as in Israel. There is no actual written document called a constitution, but a set of laws called Basic Laws, used and respected as a constitution. And what does that have anything to do with Apartheid or this topic anyhow, beats me.

Without a constitution, Israel can and Israel has granted more rights and privilages in a discriminatory manner over non-Jews. Non-Jews are second class citizens who face further difficulties because they have no constitution to use in their defense in legal matters and court cases and human rights, basically the Israeli government can and has washed its hands of personal accountability. EDIT: the lack of a constitution basically is the denial and/admittance of Jewish exclusivity.

Yep, al-Qaeda, as you resort into accusing Israel in the same conspiracy theories. Israel has actually been giving away land in the last 40 years, every land it occupied it eventually retreated from, except for the West Bank, which is a disputed territory. Israel retreated from the Sinai peninsula in 1982, a territory more than two times the size of Israel. From Lebanon in 2000. From the Gaza Strip in 2005. It's actually the only country in the region to give away land. No other county around it has done so since 1948.

I should report you for your personal attack by associating me with one of the world's worst terrorist organizations. Did you click on the link I posted. Get outta here with your lame personal attacks, buddy! :td:

Edited by B Jenkins
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Erikl when one starts from the premise that Israel is an illegitimate entity then all sorts of wonderful moral convolutions become possible. My biggest problem with this lot is that they do not have the integrity to just tell the truth and say they believe Israel should not exist at all. AND that they agree with whatever means are required to "set things right". I guess they feel, in their heart of hearts that if they do not SAY it then they cannot be guilty when the bloodshed happens.

Ancient Jews failed to be obedient to God's commandments and therefore forfeited the promise (Biblical claims to Palestine) - Dr Dewey Beegle of Wesley Theological Seminary.

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Thank you for help bringing awareness of this apartheid to the world. Keep spreading the "propaganda".... ;)

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Saying Israel is a Jewish STATE... what does that say of the indigeneous peoples that have lived in Palestine for 1,300 years prior to the creation of the State of Israel?

Your twisted logic, which seems to try to find things which aren't there, just for the heck of it, is frustrating. Israel is Jewish as Poland is Polish. It's not Jewish as Iran is Islamist. Got it? (probably not).

Without a constitution, Israel can and Israel has granted more rights and privilages in a discriminatory manner over non-Jews. Non-Jews are second class citizens who face further difficulties because they have no constitution to use in their defense in legal matters and court cases and human rights, basically the Israeli government can and has washed its hands of personal accountability. EDIT: the lack of a constitution basically is the denial and/admittance of Jewish exclusivity.

Oh my. I give up. This was the fourth time I dismissed this wrong logic. I also gave an example of the UK - and gave links from wikipedia explaining to you why your entire case is wrong, irrelevant and nothing more than yet another false libel. I guess your native tongue is English. I know mine is not, but I think I and the sources I gave here were pretty clear on this issue. I don't know how else to pass that to you. I hope the rest of the UM member got it. As for the "second class citizens" issue, apartheid claim etc., in 5 pages both you and Yamato have failed to contradict each and every claim, quote or proof that refutes these ugly libels. All you two did was to ignore replies to your posts, and simply keep on repeating your propaganda over and over again without any relevance to the way the discussion progressed.

I should report you for your personal attack by associating me with one of the world's worst terrorist organizations.

OK, just for that I would resort into your childish game and say that I could easily report you for repeating vile anti-Semitic accusations against Israel without any base whatsoever - the old "Jews want to take over the world" blood libel now channeled through they myth that Israel wants to take over the middle east. However, I won't, because that would be stretching it, plus I don't need to accuse you of anything because you make a fool of yourself by claiming that anyhow. In any case, just so you know, this exact claim is being used by radical Islamists, Hamas and Al-Qaeda included. Sheesh.

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Ancient Jews failed to be obedient to God's commandments and therefore forfeited the promise (Biblical claims to Palestine) - Dr Dewey Beegle of Wesley Theological Seminary.

Gotcha! So any means necessary to rid the world of this problem is okay, right? To paraphrase the words of a Red Ryder song - "we're wise to you this time, no more final solutions"

Deny it if you like BJ, but the result of what you preach INEXORABLY leads to that conclusion. And it's ashamed you should be.

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Your twisted logic, which seems to try to find things which aren't there, just for the heck of it, is frustrating. Israel is Jewish as Poland is Polish. It's not Jewish as Iran is Islamist. Got it? (probably not).

Oh my. I give up. This was the fourth time I dismissed this wrong logic. I also gave an example of the UK - and gave links from wikipedia explaining to you why your entire case is wrong, irrelevant and nothing more than yet another false libel. I guess your native tongue is English. I know mine is not, but I think I and the sources I gave here were pretty clear on this issue. I don't know how else to pass that to you. I hope the rest of the UM member got it. As for the "second class citizens" issue, apartheid claim etc., in 5 pages both you and Yamato have failed to contradict each and every claim, quote or proof that refutes these ugly libels. All you two did was to ignore replies to your posts, and simply keep on repeating your propaganda over and over again without any relevance to the way the discussion progressed.

Propaganda eh? No sir!

The most significant human rights problems during the year were terrorist attacks against civilians; institutional and societal discrimination against Arab citizens, in particular in access to equal education and employment opportunities; societal discrimination and domestic violence against women; and the treatment of refugees, asylum seekers, and irregular migrants.

Other human rights problems included institutional and societal discrimination against non-Orthodox Jews and some minority religious groups; societal discrimination against persons with disabilities and Ethiopian Jews; and serious labor rights abuses against foreign workers.

http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/2012/nea/204363.htm

A report on the Occupied Territories (including areas subject to the jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority) is appended at the end of this report.

The Israeli Basic Law on Human Dignity and Liberty provides for freedom of worship and the Government generally respected this right in practice. While there is no constitution, government policy continued to support the generally free practice of religion.

While the Basic Law on Human Dignity and Liberty does not specifically refer to freedom of religion, it does refer to the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel, which explicitly provides for the protection of religious freedom. In addition, numerous Supreme Court rulings incorporate the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, including their religious freedom provisions, into the country's body of law. The Declaration describes the country as a Jewish state, establishing Judaism as the dominant religion while also promising full social and political equality, regardless of religious affiliation. The Basic Law describes the country as a "Jewish and democratic state." Government policy continued to support the generally free practice of religion, although governmental and legal discrimination against non-Jews and non-Orthodox streams of Judaism continued.

The status of respect for religious freedom by the Government was unchanged during the reporting period. Government allocations of state resources favored Orthodox (including Modern and National Religious streams of Orthodoxy) and ultra-Orthodox (sometimes referred to as "Haredi") Jewish religious groups and institutions, discriminating against non-Jews and non-Orthodox streams of Judaism. Officials at the Ministry of the Interior blocked three Messianic Jews (persons who identify as Jews and follow Jewish traditions but who believe Jesus was the Messiah) seeking to immigrate to the country under the Law of Return and continued to differentiate between Jews and non-Jews on national identification documents.

Some individuals and groups committed abusive and discriminatory practices against Israeli-Arab Muslims, evangelical Christians, and Messianic Jews at the same elevated level cited in the 2008 International Religious Freedom Report. Relations among religious and ethnic groups--between Jews and non-Jews, Muslims and Christians, Arabs and non-Arabs, secular and religious Jews, and among the different streams of Judaism--often were strained during the reporting period. This was due primarily to the continuing Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the Government's unequal treatment of non-Orthodox Jews, including the Government's recognition of only Orthodox Jewish religious authorities in personal and some civil status matters concerning Jews.

http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2009/127349.htm

OK, just for that I would resort into your childish game and say that I could easily report you for repeating vile anti-Semitic accusations against Israel without any base whatsoever - the old "Jews want to take over the world" blood libel now channeled through they myth that Israel wants to take over the middle east. However, I won't, because that would be stretching it, plus I don't need to accuse you of anything because you make a fool of yourself by claiming that anyhow. In any case, just so you know, this exact claim is being used by radical Islamists, Hamas and Al-Qaeda included. Sheesh.

Okay, here is a fairy tale for you...

Once upon a time Palestine had 600,000+ Jews and 1,300,000 million Palestinians... 750,000 Palestinians were expelled from their homes and lands. Then there was an electorate of 600,000+ Jews and 100,000+ Palestinians in the newly declared state of Israel. This self proclaimed "Jewish State and democracy" refused to grant these Palestinians the right of return their OWN homeland for time immemorial.

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Gotcha! So any means necessary to rid the world of this problem is okay, right? To paraphrase the words of a Red Ryder song - "we're wise to you this time, no more final solutions"

Deny it if you like BJ, but the result of what you preach INEXORABLY leads to that conclusion. And it's ashamed you should be.

I can always rely on you twist things around. My post was dealing with the often whine of Christian Zionists and their claim that the Jews have historical rights to the lands whether or not they even have an real lineage to ancient Jews or not.

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I can always rely on you twist things around. My post was dealing with the often whine of Christian Zionists and their claim that the Jews have historical rights to the lands whether or not they even have an real lineage to ancient Jews or not.

I stand corrected then. So are you saying that the HUMAN BEINGS who call themselves Jews who are living in the land today are illegitimate and should be removed by any means necessary? Because THAT is what your clients, the Palestinians, believe. So what is it BJ? If they have no right to be there then how, exactly, would you remove them - especially considering they are quite willing to die to defend what they so foolishly (in your opinion) believe is their home?

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Posted (edited)

All criminals claim innocence before a judge and cries injustice from the gallows .... the Zionists are no different ...

they go one step further to disregard and totally ignore international 'Laws' by claiming and insisting to be 'victims.

There is an old Chinese saying .... 'A thief that cries theft, an assaulter that cries for help .... ' it is the lowest of the lowest of all criminals ....

~edit : for clarity's sake

Edited by third_eye
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All criminals claim innocence before a judge and cries injustice from the gallows .... the Zionists are no different ...

they go one step further to disregard and totally ignore international 'Laws' by claiming and insisting to be 'victims.

There is an old Chinese saying .... 'A thief that cries theft, an assaulter that cries for help .... ' it is the lowest of the lowest of all criminals ....

~edit : for clarity's sake

Again with the hedging. What's the matter third? Can't just say fry them all? If you really are being just then offer a real solution - not just a one sided list of demands that are totally unworkable in the real world. But they don't DESERVE that consideration do they? Much too evil are the Joos.

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Again with the hedging. What's the matter third? Can't just say fry them all? If you really are being just then offer a real solution - not just a one sided list of demands that are totally unworkable in the real world. But they don't DESERVE that consideration do they? Much too evil are the Joos.

Your one sided mentality is not infectious .... you are the discriminator here and can't play when there's no other to play by your filthy rules ...

I can understand the Israelis when they stand by their conviction ... you on the other hand just derives pleasure from the suffering from all that suffers

58119_10151600868325708_1596322829_n.jpg

Albert would be the first to tell you you know nothing of the Jews ... at least have the conviction to spell it right.

You want links that you can ignore or are you too gutless to search for the 'truth' that don't color your convictions 'pretty' ?

You play in your malicious trash den .... don't cry when no one wants to play with you there ...

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Your one sided mentality is not infectious .... you are the discriminator here and can't play when there's no other to play by your filthy rules ...

I can understand the Israelis when they stand by their conviction ... you on the other hand just derives pleasure from the suffering from all that suffers

58119_10151600868325708_1596322829_n.jpg

Albert would be the first to tell you you know nothing of the Jews ... at least have the conviction to spell it right.

You want links that you can ignore or are you too gutless to search for the 'truth' that don't color your convictions 'pretty' ?

You play in your malicious trash den .... don't cry when no one wants to play with you there ...

Still no answers - just more misdirection. It's like the hateful bleating of sheep -

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