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Raptor Witness

Where are the men who can move mountains?

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Posted (edited)

For me it is very simple. A man or men with faith/ belief, can do anything they can imagine doing. A man/men with no faith will never attempt anything and thus will never accomplish anything. It is not the physical power of faith which directly moves the mountain, but the power of the faith in the men who, given such power of faith, then move the mountain. I regularly drive past several mountains which have been moved by the faith of men. They held a fortune in iron ore. and men had faith they could profit from mining it.

Over a couple of decades mountains were moved form one location to another as the ore was mined and processed.

I saw one of these in the Kimberlys which was named "Faith". Someone obviously had some biblical knowledge and a sense of humour ie "with faith we shall move mountains"

cat797B.jpg

Heres a picture of the iron duke mine in my home state when production began. it was a small mountain. Like iron baron and iron knob, (yup a real place) today it is almost non existent, replaced by a giant slag heap.

h64ou.jpg

Edited by Mr Walker

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For me it is very simple. A man or men with faith/ belief, can do anything they can imagine doing. A man/men with no faith will never attempt anything and thus will never accomplish anything. It is not the physical power of faith which directly moves the mountain, but the power of the faith in the men who, given such power of faith, then move the mountain. I regularly drive past several mountains which have been moved by the faith of men. They held a fortune in iron ore. and men had faith they could profit from mining it.

Well obviously people cannot do anything they can imagine doing based on faith or anything else; you nor I can fly without a lot of assistance, faith or not. Despite what you assert, people attempt things without faith all the time; I've played the lottery multiple times without any 'faith' that I was going to win. I think the words 'reason' and 'evidence' are far better words than 'faith' in about every one of your sentences above; men didn't have 'faith' they could profit from mining, they had very good reason to believe they could and plenty of evidence to support it.

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I think Mr. Walker's use of the word "faith" is a bit of sloppy thinking. They had "faith" that they could make money mining a mountain of iron ore. That isn't quite the same sort of "faith" that one must have to believe in the irrational. I think that is known as the fallacy of equivocation.

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I think Mr. Walker's use of the word "faith" is a bit of sloppy thinking. They had "faith" that they could make money mining a mountain of iron ore. That isn't quite the same sort of "faith" that one must have to believe in the irrational. I think that is known as the fallacy of equivocation.

"Irrational" examples of faith are the types used sometimes in metaphor to make a more extreme impression. Faith that you can ride a bike without falling could equally be equated to this (dare I say it again) metaphor, and it wouldn't be wrong.

But I thought Walker was just implying that the name giver of the equipment had a tongue in cheek aim for that name, and the two weren't meant to be equated like you're saying.

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Posted (edited)

Well obviously people cannot do anything they can imagine doing based on faith or anything else; you nor I can fly without a lot of assistance, faith or not. Despite what you assert, people attempt things without faith all the time; I've played the lottery multiple times without any 'faith' that I was going to win. I think the words 'reason' and 'evidence' are far better words than 'faith' in about every one of your sentences above; men didn't have 'faith' they could profit from mining, they had very good reason to believe they could and plenty of evidence to support it.

No you are wrong. I can fly, and indeed have done so with nothing more than a hang glider or a glider to support me. ANd only human imagination and faith enabled this to happen. The first people to fly, the first to build a hot air balloon, the first to build a steam engine, or a boomerang had only faith.

Yes reason and logic help once the principles and practicality of a thing are established, but initially one needs imagination and faith. So many humans live such ordinary lives because they do not have faith in who and wha they could be and what they could do and become

One can also invest faith in unlikely things. I take a lottery ticket whenever the pool reaches 20 million or more. I know the chance of winning is 1 in 140 million but I also know that if i dont take a ticket I have NO chance of winning. And so far minor winings have kept me in front over several decades. Anyone can attempt something they know will succeed. It takes faith to atempt things we do NOT know will work. Eg making a parachute brake for a push bike, or constructing ones own skate board water skis sand boards and surf boards before they were commercially available, creating ones own explosive devices, timers mortars and rockets, or designing and building an A frame holiday home from scratch. Entering an underground storm water system with nothing more than a torch strapped to your head and a home made skateboard to lie on, at the age of about 12 or 13, in an attempt to explore and map it, requires faith in your self and your abilities. Sure i checked the weather forecast to make sure it wasnt going to rain, but even then it required faith /belief to accept that there would be no flooding.

All these are projects (among hundreds) which I have been involved in during my life. None of these were guaranteed success, but I had faith in my self and in my father (who designed the two story A frame beach home)

I repeat; humans can eventually do ANYTHING they have faith in doing, using imagination and technology. Only lack of faith/belief, limits what we are capable of.

Edited by Mr Walker

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Posted (edited)

I think Mr. Walker's use of the word "faith" is a bit of sloppy thinking. They had "faith" that they could make money mining a mountain of iron ore. That isn't quite the same sort of "faith" that one must have to believe in the irrational. I think that is known as the fallacy of equivocation.

The name of the truck was a deliberate play on words. "Faith" literally moved mountains of ore in its lifetime.

But all mining and other ventures of capital which are speculative require initial faith. Sometimes the faith does not pay off. One spectacular failure was the poseidon Nickel boom in the 70s, but without faith NO venture capital projects would ever get started. Faith is a step we take when we do not know the outcome. It is a step "in faith", or in belief that we can do something. Without faith, NOTHING new would ever be achieved. As I said, for me the biblical pasage has ALWAYS meant that men use/need faith to do great works. This is self evidently true. With faith (plus our skills abilities and technologies) we can accomplish anything, even the movement of a mountain. Without it (despite our skills abilities and technologies) nothing can or will be done, because nothing will be attempted.

Edited by Mr Walker
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As I said, for me the biblical pasage has ALWAYS meant that men use/need faith to do great works. This is self evidently true. With faith (plus our skills abilities and technologies) we can accomplish anything, even the movement of a mountain. Without it (despite our skills abilities and technologies) nothing can or will be done, because nothing will be attempted.

And some of the things we don't have faith in being able to do in our lives seem as if we are having to move a mountain.

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"Faith" begins to sound like the enthusiasm of the manic-depressive. A middle road is advised.

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"Faith" begins to sound like the enthusiasm of the manic-depressive.

I'm not sure what that means exactly, but that seems to be taking a term as broad as relating to any trust that you can accomplish a goal, and tightening it down to something unhealthy or abnormal.

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You read it as I intended; I meant a warning not to get carried away with "faith."

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"Faith" begins to sound like the enthusiasm of the manic-depressive. A middle road is advised.

Faith is not an excessive thing. It should be a natural part of the human experience. Most people do every thing every day in faith. We start our car believing that it will go we turn on the light having faith it will not explode. We hop in a lift having faith it will not get stuck or crash. We have reasons for our faith but still they are acts of faith A person without any faith would be stuck unable to do anything unles they were 100 % sure of the outcomes. I am a very cautious and conservative person, but still i act in/ on faith in almost every thing i do. It is impossible not to.

HOwever to stop taking medicine and relying on faith to heal you is like having faith that a car with a flat battery will start. Extremely optimistic

None the less sometimes the engine fires and the car goes. Having faith in healing is not like having faith that a car with NO battery will start That is physically impossible. Healing via faith IS physically possible, and happens all the time. But still I'd be taking the medicines as well.

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can I say, that as a non-believer, i'm finding it interesting that different people have totally different interpretations of the same passages from the bible.

guess there's more mileage in the good book than I thought.....

The difference of opinion extends to the writing of the Text. There are more than just variations, there are complete contradictions. However, these are not products of a failed education system; rather, a simple improvement over story telling by the camp fire.

As with any good story, if you believe, you believe because it's in you to do so, not because someone taught you.

The same is true of how men can move mountains, only instead of hearing, you tell a story to the elements.

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sadly, for every one whose faith can move mountains there's another whose faith that the mountain shan't move is just as trong.

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sadly, for every one whose faith can move mountains there's another whose faith that the mountain shan't move is just as trong.

I thought one of those two types greatly outnumbers the other.

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The key was that Jesus was hungry and was returning to Jerusalem. The fig tree was a symbol for Jerusalem and Jesus sought righteousness from the people, but did not find it.

Matthew's gospel pointed to Jerusalem's destruction in many parables.

A mountain is symbolic for obstacles. The Jewish leadership were obstacles to the Gospel as it was spread to the Gentiles. With the destruction of Jerusalem, there no more stood a barrier to the kingdom of God.

While generally assumed to be allegorical by most scholars and students, the example Jesus gave clearly wasn't an allegory. It was a real manifestation of supernatural power that astonished his Disciples.

I beg the differ and I hope my argument has provided another avenue for you to explore.

So where are these men of whom Jesus spoke? If no human will ever attain this level of faith in all of history, why bother putting it out there as an example?

8719249274_d917aff267_z.jpg

The twelve disciples spread the Gospel despite being harassed, imprisoned, tortured, and murdered. Yet they still prevailed and left a legacy that has only continuously grown. I'd say they moved that mountain through prayer and faith.

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The key was that Jesus was hungry and was returning to Jerusalem. The fig tree was a symbol for Jerusalem and Jesus sought righteousness from the people, but did not find it.

Matthew's gospel pointed to Jerusalem's destruction in many parables.

A mountain is symbolic for obstacles. The Jewish leadership were obstacles to the Gospel as it was spread to the Gentiles. With the destruction of Jerusalem, there no more stood a barrier to the kingdom of God.

I beg the differ and I hope my argument has provided another avenue for you to explore.

The twelve disciples spread the Gospel despite being harassed, imprisoned, tortured, and murdered. Yet they still prevailed and left a legacy that has only continuously grown. I'd say they moved that mountain through prayer and faith.

It has, and He was indeed about to move a mountain symbolically, also, which may have been underlined by a real miracle.

What would you argue the "sea" represents in the story? Why throw a mountain into the sea, using your example. Also, why repeat this same scenario in Revelation, linked directly to wrath and final judgement?

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I'm kinda glad that in my experience mountains tend to stay put. It would be a different world if every wild-eyed preacher were able to hurl them about.

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I'm kinda glad that in my experience mountains tend to stay put.

If you watch very carefully you can see that they are not.

I think scientists call it erosion.

http://www.mountainnature.com/geology/Erosion.htm

You'll have to ask a specialist where it all goes though. :-)

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For me it is very simple. A man or men with faith/ belief, can do anything they can imagine doing. A man/men with no faith will never attempt anything and thus will never accomplish anything. It is not the physical power of faith which directly moves the mountain, but the power of the faith in the men who, given such power of faith, then move the mountain. I regularly drive past several mountains which have been moved by the faith of men. They held a fortune in iron ore. and men had faith they could profit from mining it.

Over a couple of decades mountains were moved form one location to another as the ore was mined and processed.

I saw one of these in the Kimberlys which was named "Faith". Someone obviously had some biblical knowledge and a sense of humour ie "with faith we shall move mountains"

cat797B.jpg

Heres a picture of the iron duke mine in my home state when production began. it was a small mountain. Like iron baron and iron knob, (yup a real place) today it is almost non existent, replaced by a giant slag heap.

h64ou.jpg

Hahaha that's not a mountain. That's a hill. I live at the foot of the Sierra Nevada, there are real mountains here. ;)

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It has, and He was indeed about to move a mountain symbolically, also, which may have been underlined by a real miracle.

What would you argue the "sea" represents in the story? Why throw a mountain into the sea, using your example. Also, why repeat this same scenario in Revelation, linked directly to wrath and final judgement?

The sea represents a great body of people. This interpretation can be derived from Revelation 17.

"Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters, And the angel said to me, "The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages." (Revelation 17:1, 15 ESV)

The nation of Israel was destroyed by the Romans and its people exiled as slaves, trophies, or colisseum entertainment, as recorded by Josephus.

Thus, as Jesus prophecied, the mountain was removed from its place and thrown into the sea. This was the prayer of the martyrs in Rev. 6.

"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been." (Revelation 6:9-11 ESV)

I hope this clears up my interpretation more. Have a good day!

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I'm kinda glad that in my experience mountains tend to stay put. It would be a different world if every wild-eyed preacher were able to hurl them about.

Your sense of humor might save us all, Mr. Merton.

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What Jesus said mean you can do all things if you just enough faith to believe you can do it..It's just like peter while he was walking in the water with Jesus at first he had enough faith but when he realize that he is actually walking in the water he fell afraid that he would sink in the water.. Then He Immediately sink then Jesus saved him and said "Peter what a small faith you have..".

And Jesus also said that if your faith is as big of Mustard Seed you could command a tree the pull out his root and plant himself at the sea..

I don't really memorize Jesus line.. :whistle:

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Posted (edited)

The sea represents a great body of people. This interpretation can be derived from Revelation 17.

The nation of Israel was destroyed by the Romans and its people exiled as slaves, trophies, or colisseum entertainment, as recorded by Josephus.

Thus, as Jesus prophecied, the mountain was removed from its place and thrown into the sea. This was the prayer of the martyrs in Rev. 6.

I hope this clears up my interpretation more. Have a good day!

You lost me when you drifted into a dead end. You forgot to explain the effects that the burning mountain has, when it is thrown into the sea.

Animal life and instruments of human endeavor(ships,) share only two things in the following passage, their location, and the cause and origin of their peril. They aren't united by anything else, nor are they meant to be.

Edited by Raptor Witness

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