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jugoso

God's promise on Israel

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I read this this morning and quite liked it.

Promises about the land of Israel were never intended to be taken literally,

or as applying to a defined geographical territory. They are a way of speaking

about how to live under God so that justice and peace reign, the weak and poor

are protected, the stranger is included, and all have a share in the community

and a contribution to make to it. The ‘promised land’ in the Bible is not a

place, so much as a metaphor of how things ought to be among the people of God.

This ‘promised land’ can be found – or built – anywhere.

http://meloney.newsvine.com/_news/2013/05/08/18122609-gods-promise-on-israel-not-a-place-but-the-reign-of-peace-and-justice-jews-for-justice-for-palestinians

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I read this this morning and quite liked it.

http://meloney.newsv...or-palestinians

Those pesky Israelis... just won't disappear like they're supposed to. Even have the audacity to be willing to fight to maintain their home - how DARE they? Seriously though, don't you find it interesting that when we receive these new and "enlightened" interpretations of God's word, they all seem to appeal for the dissipation or even destruction of the state of Israel as a home for the Jews? Coincidence?
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Posted (edited)

It's another example of man taking religion and using it for greed and selfishness.

Those pesky Israelis... just won't disappear like they're supposed to. Even have the audacity to be willing to fight to maintain their home - how DARE they? Seriously though, don't you find it interesting that when we receive these new and "enlightened" interpretations of God's word, they all seem to appeal for the dissipation or even destruction of the state of Israel as a home for the Jews? Coincidence?

It never said that, in fact it said the opposite in a way. It only meant that the Jews who established Israela nd cause trouble clearly don't understand the meaning. But now it's established they still don't.

Edited by Coffey
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Posted (edited)

Those pesky Israelis... just won't disappear like they're supposed to. Even have the audacity to be willing to fight to maintain their home - how DARE they? Seriously though, don't you find it interesting that when we receive these new and "enlightened" interpretations of God's word, they all seem to appeal for the dissipation or even destruction of the state of Israel as a home for the Jews? Coincidence?

You're the Christian Zionist not I. Do not Christian Zionists vow that an obscure passage of scripture in Zechariah 13:8-9 has yet to be fulfilled and regards the current state of Israel.

Here is that piece of scripture for all whom may not have a Bible handy:

And it will come about in all the land,

Declares the Lord,

That two parts in it will be cut off and perish;

But the third will be left in it.

And I will bring the third part through fire,

Refine them as silver is refined,

And test them as gold is tested.

They will call on My name,

And I will answer them;

I will say, 'They are my people,'

And they will say, 'The Lord is my God.'

Zechariah 13:8-9

So basically what you are saying is God raised this oppressive regime and then will destroy 2/3 of the current Jewish Israelis and leave 1/3 of the Jewish Israelis alive to lead humbled and contrite lives and basically will love their neighbors (the Palestinians).

Christian Zionism believes the Zionists have inalienable rights to the land.

What Christians such as myself believe is that the Palestinians have lived continuously in these lands for 1,300 years and have no rights.

We see prophecy and the Word of God directly conflicting with and contradicting Zionism. Thus, we go with the word of God and reject Zionism and its apartheid policies because it was these very same social issues and disobedience that led God to put the ancient Jews into the Babylonian captivity IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Edited by B Jenkins
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Peace and justice eh? Given the history of the Jewish people I'd be asking for my money back. ;)

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You're the Christian Zionist not I. Do not Christian Zionists vow that an obscure passage of scripture in Zechariah 13:8-9 has yet to be fulfilled and regards the current state of Israel.

Here is that piece of scripture for all whom may not have a Bible handy:

And it will come about in all the land,

Declares the Lord,

That two parts in it will be cut off and perish;

But the third will be left in it.

And I will bring the third part through fire,

Refine them as silver is refined,

And test them as gold is tested.

They will call on My name,

And I will answer them;

I will say, 'They are my people,'

And they will say, 'The Lord is my God.'

Zechariah 13:8-9

So basically what you are saying is God raised this oppressive regime and then will destroy 2/3 of the current Jewish Israelis and leave 1/3 of the Jewish Israelis alive to lead humbled and contrite lives and basically will love their neighbors (the Palestinians).

Christian Zionism believes the Zionists have inalienable rights to the land.

What Christians such as myself believe is that the Palestinians have lived continuously in these lands for 1,300 years and have no rights.

We see prophecy and the Word of God directly conflicting with and contradicting Zionism. Thus, we go with the word of God and reject Zionism and its apartheid policies because it was these very same social issues and disobedience that led God to put the ancient Jews into the Babylonian captivity IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I said no such thing - YOU did - God raised no repressive regime. He kept His word and regathered Israel from the nations to bring them home to the land. I agree that they are still in disobedience. If your problem is that you cannot accept a God who would destroy 2/3 of His own people for disobedience you need to take that up with Him. But while we're on the subject BJ, if you are familiar with the book of Revelation you'd know that He is going to eradicate about 2/3 of ALL life before the final war is over. Disobedience seems to be a REALLY touchy infraction for him.

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Posted (edited)

.

Are the "jews" who now occupy Palestine Israelites or Edomites ?

Ezekiel 36 says the Edomites will spitefully occupy God's ancient Holy Land.

In the 2nd century BC, Israel's enemy, Edom [Greek/Latin = Idumea], lost a war

with Israel. Then the Prince/High Priest of Israel did a very evil thing... he forced

the "conversion" of Israel's Edomite enemies and the Edomites became "jews"

[Josephus - Antiquities Book XIII, CHAPTER 9.1]

At the time of Christ, Edomite-jews had taken over the palace and temple. King Herod

was an Edomite-jew. The "wailing wall" is said to be a remnant of Herod's remodelled

addition to the temple [sometimes called Herod's third temple.]

.

Edited by AlasBabylon

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Those pesky palestinians... just won't disappear like they're supposed to. Even have the audacity to be willing to fight to maintain their home - how DARE they? Seriously though, don't you find it interesting that when we receive these new and "enlightened" interpretations of God's word, they all seem to appeal for the dissipation or even destruction of the state of Palestine as a home for the Palestinians? Coincidence?

*whistles* :P

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*whistles* :P

The stories are remarkably similar I think. When I was growing up in the 60's I felt for Israel because I perceived them to be an "under dog". They were fighting for survival and appeared to be sorely mistreated by all. TODAY that role is held by the Palestinians. I really do understand why people have a natural affinity for supporting them. But when they overlook all the evil done by one side and blame everything on Israel then I don't respect them. Call it my own tip of the hat to, (dare I say it?) "fairness" :)
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I said no such thing - YOU did - God raised no repressive regime. He kept His word and regathered Israel from the nations to bring them home to the land. I agree that they are still in disobedience. If your problem is that you cannot accept a God who would destroy 2/3 of His own people for disobedience you need to take that up with Him. But while we're on the subject BJ, if you are familiar with the book of Revelation you'd know that He is going to eradicate about 2/3 of ALL life before the final war is over. Disobedience seems to be a REALLY touchy infraction for him.

You missed the whole irony of the obscure passage of prophecy in Zechariah 13:8-9 how it contradicts passages of Israel's regathering in passages such as Deuteronomy 30:20, Ezekiel 36:8-12, 33-36, etc. Christian Zionism doesn't hold up to scriptural prophecy and scrutiny.

Say that obscure piece of prophecy in Zechariah occured today, this very day, 05/09/13, well... um there's only going to be 1.5-2 million Israeli Jews left in Israel. Yet, read those passages I posted above and see if I am not right. I believe, and this is not just my opinion alone among Christians is that Christian Zionism is a heresy and corruption of the Bible. It is a warwongering and militant view of scriptures.

1.5-2 million Israel Jews left alive in Israel if Zechariah's prophecy is fulfilled today... hmm... :no:

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Posted (edited)

Those pesky Israelis... just won't disappear like they're supposed to. Even have the audacity to be willing to fight to maintain their home - how DARE they? Seriously though, don't you find it interesting that when we receive these new and "enlightened" interpretations of God's word, they all seem to appeal for the dissipation or even destruction of the state of Israel as a home for the Jews? Coincidence?

Did you know 41% of Israelis live in the Central District and Tel Aviv alone? And if we include the Jerusalem District, it amounts to 53% of Israel's total population!

Central District, 24% of Israelis

150px-Center_District_in_Israel_(%2Bdisputed).svg.png

Tel Aviv, 17% of Israelis

150px-Tel_Aviv_District_in_Israel.svg.png

Northern District, 17% of Israelis (60% of Arab Israelis according to the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics)

150px-Israel_north_dist.png

Southern District, 14% of Israelis

150px-Southern_District_in_Israel.svg.png

Haifa District, 12% of Israelis

150px-Haifa_District_in_Israel.svg.png

Jerusalem District, 12% of Israelis

150px-Jerusalem_District_in_Israel_(%2Bdisputed_hatched)_(semi-Israel_areas_hatched).svg.png

Judea And Samaria Areas, 4% of Israelis

150px-Israel_judea_and_samaria_dist.png

263px-Israel_population_density.png

There is no doubt that the Palestinians refugees can be granted the right of return.

Emigration [edit]

For many years definitive data on Israeli emigration was unavailable.[38] In The Israeli Diaspora sociologist Stephen J. Gold maintains that calculation of Jewish emigration has been a contentious issue, explaining, "Since Zionism, the philosophy that underlies the existence of the Jewish state, calls for return home of the world's Jews, the opposite movement – Israelis leaving the Jewish state to reside elsewhere – clearly presents an ideological and demographic problem."[39]

In the past several decades, emigration (yerida) has seen a considerable increase. From 1990 to 2005, 230,000 Israelis left the country; a large proportion of these departures included people who initially immigrated to Israel and then reversed their course (48% of all post-1990 departures and even 60% of 2003 and 2004 departures were former immigrants to Israel). 8% of Jewish immigrants in the post-1990 period left Israel, while 15% of non-Jewish immigrants did. In 2005 alone, 21,500 Israelis left the country and had not yet returned at the end of 2006; among them 73% were Jews, 5% Arabs, and 22% "Others" (mostly non-Jewish immigrants, with Jewish ancestry, from USSR). At the same time, 10,500 Israelis came back to Israel after over one year abroad; 84% were Jews, 9% Others, and 7% Arabs.[40]

According to the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics, as of 2005, 650,000 Israelis had left the country for over one year and not returned. Of them, 530,000 are still alive today. This number does not include the children born overseas. It should also be noted that Israeli law grants citizenship only to the first generation of children born to Israeli emigrants.

http://en.wikipedia....rael#Emigration

Edited by B Jenkins
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Here is a repost of mine and sound refutation of Christian Zionism!

The Bible can be problematic if one reads it too literally. For instance:

16 I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth, so that if anyone can number the dust of the earth, then your descendants can also be numbered. Genesis 13:16

5 And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” Genesis 15:5

In 1939, it is estimated that there were 18 million Jews worldwide. In 1945, it is estimated that there were 12 million Jews worldwide. In 2012, it is estimated there were roughly 14 million Jews worldwide. Roughly 50% live in the United States, and 50% live in Israel.

By comparision, Arabs make up 5% of the world population of 7 billion at 367.4 million.

Yet...

18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying,

“To your descendants I have given this land,

From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates: Genesis 15:18

How is a population so small as 14 million going to possess all that land? How is a population so small that has only grown by 2 million since 1945?

Something is fishy here because the math and the promises made to Abraham simply does not add up.

A mere 14 million souls are going to possess the land from the river of Egypt to the river Euphrates? Puh, do I look stupid to you?

But the David Kingdom was the closest Israel would ever achieve this back in 1000-926 BCE. So I guess, fellow Bible readers, one can surmise the promise of Abraham was fulfilled through King David and it lasted roughly 74 years.

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Posted (edited)

.

.

Jenkins

The promise to Abraham also includes the descendants of his son, Ishmael [Arabs.]

God knew tiny Israel could not hold Israelites numbering as the sand and stars...

that is why God arranged for Assyria to conquer and scatter the Northern Kingdom

of Israel... and Babylon to conquer Jerusalem and remove most of the Kingdom of Judah...

only a portion of Judah returned to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple at Cyrus' decree.

Speaking of Cyrus... over a century before Cyrus was born... Assyria had resettled

Israelites into the "cities of the Medes"... Cyrus' Persians were a lesser people

connected with the Medes... makes one wonder who those Persians really were...

especially since Persians like Israelites were divided into 10 to 12 tribes

[10 or 12 tribes depending upon the ancient Greek historian who is telling the story.]

God called Cyrus [who united the Medes and Persians] "Anointed"... a term usually

reserved for the Kings of Israel.

.

Edited by AlasBabylon

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Posted (edited)

.

.

Jenkins

The promise to Abraham also includes the descendants of his son, Ishmael [Arabs.]

God knew tiny Israel could not hold Israelites numbering as the sand and stars...

that is why God arranged for Assyria to conquer and scatter the Northern Kingdom

of Israel... and Babylon to conquer Jerusalem and remove most of the Kingdom of Judah...

only a portion of Judah returned to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple at Cyrus' decree.

Speaking of Cyrus... over a century before Cyrus was born... Assyria had resettled

Israelites into the "cities of the Medes"... Cyrus' Persians were a lesser people

connected with the Medes... makes one wonder who those Persians really were...

especially since Persians like Israelites were divided into 10 to 12 tribes

[10 or 12 tribes depending upon the ancient Greek historian who is telling the story.]

God called Cyrus [who united the Medes and Persians] "Anointed"... a term usually

reserved for the Kings of Israel.

.

Indeed. There are 367.4 million Arabs in the world today. There are 81 million Persians in the world today. And there are 14 million Jews in the world today (just roughly 2 million up from 1945). This presents quite a load of evidence that some Biblical world views are definitely eschewed concerning the promises of Abraham.

Edited by B Jenkins
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Indeed. There are 367.4 million Arabs in the world today. There are 81 million Persians in the world today. And there are 14 million Jews in the world today (just roughly 2 million up from 1945). This presents quite a load of evidence that some Biblical world views are definitely eschewed concerning the promises of Abraham.

Someday when you have time to kill... check out the people the Bible calls

the smallest in number among the nations... the Bible also gives their fate.

Then check out my first post on this topic and you will know who those people

are today.

I'll give you a head start:

http://bible.cc/obadiah/1-2.htm

.

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Someday when you have time to kill... check out the people the Bible calls

the smallest in number among the nations... the Bible also gives their fate.

Then check out my first post on this topic and you will know who those people

are today.

I'll give you a head start:

http://bible.cc/obadiah/1-2.htm

.

Nice try - but all you'll hear is "but these aren't the REAL JEWS. These are ZIONISTS. They are from Eastern Europe and they coveted the rich, green, prosperous places of the peaceful Palestinians...oh, wait...

These eastern European usurpers had to work, sweat and bleed to make the land green and prosperous. Raise their children and nurture their hopes surrounded by a world that would rather them dead. These fakes just came to steal the ancient homeland of the great and noble people of Palestine - who have no culture or language or books or art that is demonstrably different than their kin in Jordan, Egypt, Syria or Lebanon. This great and historic people of Palestine who have given so much to the world before they were turned to wanderers by the evil Zionist entity.

Getting the picture yet? Reality need not apply in this situation- there is a story to be told.

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No, actually the Palestinians had a rich and diverse culture. And they had agriculture.

You are just spewing the same Zionist car salemen propaganda we have heard for most of the 20th century.

"Make the desert bloom, a land without a people for a people without a land, etc" ad nauseum.

The world population of Jewry has only risen 2 million over the last 68 years. At that rate, it will take world Jewry to match the current world population of Arabs ... 12,000 years or until the year 3213 CE.

"Then you shall be left few in number, whereas you were as the stars of heaven for multitude, BECAUSE you did not obey the Lord your God. Deuteronomy 28:62

c.f.

"Thus says the Lord God, "This also I will let the house of Israel ask Me to do for them: I will increase their men like a flock. Like the flock for sacrifices, like the flock at Jerusalem during her appointed feasts, so will the waste cities be filled with flocks of men. Then they will know that I am the Lord." Ezekiel 36:37-38

See, things just aren't adding up, and then.

And one of the beliefs of Christian Zionism is they literally believe the Jews will possess the land from the river of Egypt to the river Euphrates... what in the year 3213?

If the world is still around, who knows what the world population of Arabs will be by then. Perhaps, we will have colonized the oceans or Mars by then, who knows?

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Posted (edited)

No, actually the Palestinians had a rich and diverse culture. And they had agriculture.

You are just spewing the same Zionist car salemen propaganda we have heard for most of the 20th century.

"Make the desert bloom, a land without a people for a people without a land, etc" ad nauseum.

The world population of Jewry has only risen 2 million over the last 68 years. At that rate, it will take world Jewry to match the current world population of Arabs ... 12,000 years or until the year 3213 CE.

"Then you shall be left few in number, whereas you were as the stars of heaven for multitude, BECAUSE you did not obey the Lord your God. Deuteronomy 28:62

c.f.

"Thus says the Lord God, "This also I will let the house of Israel ask Me to do for them: I will increase their men like a flock. Like the flock for sacrifices, like the flock at Jerusalem during her appointed feasts, so will the waste cities be filled with flocks of men. Then they will know that I am the Lord." Ezekiel 36:37-38

See, things just aren't adding up, and then.

And one of the beliefs of Christian Zionism is they literally believe the Jews will possess the land from the river of Egypt to the river Euphrates... what in the year 3213?

If the world is still around, who knows what the world population of Arabs will be by then. Perhaps, we will have colonized the oceans or Mars by then, who knows?

Quoting scripture that doesn't support your claims now? The Bible does tell that they will inhabit that land - I assume you believe the Bible, since you quote it so often? If so, WHEN, do you believe they will possess this land? And what do you imagine has become of the "rightful" owners? Did God *gasp* make them give it up?

And can you name a Palestinian King, Prince, Potentate or president prior to 1960? A Palestinian invention? Perhaps a car or a plane or even a desk that is called Palestinian in a museum?

Edited by and then

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Posted (edited)

Nice try - but all you'll hear is "but these aren't the REAL JEWS. These are ZIONISTS.

They are from Eastern Europe and they coveted the rich, green, prosperous places of the peaceful Palestinians...oh, wait...

These eastern European usurpers had to work, sweat and bleed to make the land green and prosperous. Raise their children and nurture their hopes surrounded by a world that would rather them dead. These fakes just came to steal the ancient homeland of the great and noble people of Palestine - who have no culture or language or books or art that is demonstrably different than their kin in Jordan, Egypt, Syria or Lebanon. This great and historic people of Palestine who have given so much to the world before they were turned to wanderers by the evil Zionist entity.

Getting the picture yet? Reality need not apply in this situation- there is a story to be told.

"Eastern Europeans" = Khazars who have turned God's Holy Land into Sodom and Gomorrah.

Tel Aviv named world's best gay city

http://www.ynetnews....4174274,00.html

Israelis flock by the thousands to Tel Aviv's annual Gay Pride Parade

http://www.haaretz.c...parade-1.435237

Israeli political and military leaders born in Russia/USSR.

http://en.wikipedia...._Russian_Empire

Here is a partial list... with names you may recognize:

# Menachem Begin, Israeli Prime Minister

# Yitzhak Ben-Zvi, second President of Israel (1952–63)

# Shmuel Dayan, Zionist activist, Israeli politician

# Levi Eshkol, Israeli Prime Minister (1963–69)

# Ephraim Katzir, fourth President of Israel (1973–78)

# Avigdor Lieberman, Israeli Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Strategic Affairs (2006–2008)

# Golda Meir, Israeli Prime Minister (1969–74)

# Shimon Peres, Israeli Prime Minister (1984–86)

# Yitzhak Shamir, Israeli Prime Minister (1983–84, 1986–92)

# Natan Sharansky, Israeli politician

# Moshe Sharett, Israeli Prime Minister (1954–55)

# Zalman Shazar, third President of Israel (1963–73)

# Chaim Weizmann, first President of Israel (1949–52)

The current Israeli PM, Netanyahu, was born in Tel Aviv...

but his father was born in Warsaw which was part of Russia

at the time.

http://en.wikipedia....nzion_Netanyahu

After the fall of the USSR... over a million more Russian jews immigrated to Israel.

http://en.wikipedia....el_in_the_1990s

.

Edited by AlasBabylon
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If mankind survives its meteors, earthquakes and wars, by the year 3200 none of this nonsense will even matter anymore. This ancient embarrassment is a stain on the world. If another group of people followed Israel's example and got a homeland for their efforts, the inhumanity in administering such a policy would replicate itself as many times as the experiment was repeated.

I need a God who's more high-minded than what happens to a tiny group of people on a tiny plot of land endlessly causing trouble with their neighbors. My God sees 10,000 starving children daily and puts the egg on each of our faces for allowing it.

Using religion and ethnicity as reasons to control others has absolutely no place in the 21st century.

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If mankind survives its meteors, earthquakes and wars, by the year 3200 none of this nonsense will even matter anymore. This ancient embarrassment is a stain on the world. If another group of people followed Israel's example and got a homeland for their efforts, the inhumanity in administering such a policy would replicate itself as many times as the experiment was repeated.

I need a God who's more high-minded than what happens to a tiny group of people on a tiny plot of land endlessly causing trouble with their neighbors. My God sees 10,000 starving children daily and puts the egg on each of our faces for allowing it.

Using religion and ethnicity as reasons to control others has absolutely no place in the 21st century.

Ah but Yam, with the same hand you free the Palestinians you would curse the Israelis. Or do they not matter? Sure they do. One can argue forever about the righteousness of the decision to create a Jewish state but one cannot un-create it.

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Ah but Yam, with the same hand you free the Palestinians you would curse the Israelis. Or do they not matter? Sure they do. One can argue forever about the righteousness of the decision to create a Jewish state but one cannot un-create it.

I'm not cursing anybody. They are all to be free and free alike. How free Israelis are right now? That's exactly how free Palestinians should be right now.

Liberty or death is how some Americans once described it. Oh those terrorists. We walk down the roads they paved for us and yet some of us betray their spirit.

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I'm not cursing anybody. They are all to be free and free alike. How free Israelis are right now? That's exactly how free Palestinians should be right now.

Liberty or death is how some Americans once described it. Oh those terrorists. We walk down the roads they paved for us and yet some of us betray their spirit.

"Freeing" the Palestinians to murder Israelis? I'd find it hard not to call that a curse - but you never acknowledge that unpleasant truth - just brush past it with more rhetoric.

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Posted (edited)

"Freeing" the Palestinians to murder Israelis? I'd find it hard not to call that a curse - but you never acknowledge that unpleasant truth - just brush past it with more rhetoric.

Quote where I said murder or zip your cockeyed BS. Zionists and their false choice between tyranny and murder are pathetic excuses for humanity.

Edited by Yamato
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