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Child of Bast

Pope Francis Names 800 New Saints In One Go

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Do you think he was right to gloss over the real circumstances of these individuals' martyrdom?

Pope Francis's first canonization ceremony was a record-breaking one. The new pontiff named over 800 new saints on Sunday. That's already almost double the number of saints declared by Pope John Paul II, whose 480-odd canonizations were, at the time, more than those of all of his predecessors since 1588, combined. But the latest canonization bonanza is notable for another reason: most of the 800 new saints are 15th-century martyrs, who were approved as a group for sainthood by Francis's predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI. Given Pope Francis's previous public commitment to improving the Catholic church's relationship with Muslim communities worldwide, Benedict XVI's unfinished business put the new pontiff in a delicate position. The 813 "Martyrs of Otranto" were beheaded by Ottoman soldiers for refusing to convert to Islam.

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Posted (edited)

Doesn't matter what we think, he's infallible! lol

I hope he was singing 'the saints go marching in' while dishing the sainthoods out. With his minions dancing and walloping tambourines in the background.

Edited by Eldorado
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Right ... next .. 'Hosanna' in the key of Gm ... ready ?

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Do you think he was right to gloss over the real circumstances of these individuals' martyrdom?

Full story

I don't think so, tell it like it is, they wouldn't convert to Islam and were beheaded for it.

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Missing from that article is the historical background;

"The 800 "Otranto Martyrs" (actually 813) were brutally slaughtered after they refused to convert to Islam following an assault on their town by Ottoman Turks."

"The Ottoman Turks laid siege to the village of Otranto in 1480, and after a day, captured the town as the faithful retreated inside their cathedral. The unlucky citizens waited in terror as the Turks sacked their town."

"To punish the inhabitants, the Ottoman commander ordered the execution of all men over the age of 15. All of the women and children were to be enslaved."

Islam, the religion of peace.

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Posted (edited)

Full story :

At Otranto, the terms of the Pasha were ostensibly generous. If the town surrendered, the defenders would be permitted to live. Otranto was forfeit. The answer to the Pasha’s demands was firm: The Christians would not surrender. When a second messenger was sent to the walls to repeat the demands, he was met with arrows from the walls. To settle the issue, the leaders of the castle defense climbed to the top of the tower and threw the keys of the city into the sea. When the determined defenders awoke in the morning, however, some of the soldiers had fled by climbing down the walls and running for their lives.

terms offered but was rejected ....

The Pasha Ahmet ordered the men of Otranto, 800 exhausted, beaten, and starved survivors of the battle, to be brought before him. The Pasha informed them that they had one chance to convert to Islam or die. To convince them, he instructed an Italian apostate priest named Giovanni to preach.....

.... One of the men of Otranto, a tailor named Antonio Primaldi (he is also named Antonio Pezzulla in some sources), came forward to speak to the survivors. He called out that he was ready to die for Christ a thousand times. He then added, according to the chronicler Giovanni Laggetto in the Historia della guerra di Otranto del 1480:

My brothers, until today we have fought in defense of our country, to save our lives, and for our lords; now it is time that we fight to save our souls for our Lord, so that having died on the cross for us, it is good that we should die for him, standing firm and constant in the faith, and with this earthly death we shall win eternal life and the glory of martyrs. [author translation]

At this, the men of Otranto cried out with one voice that they too were willing to die a thousand times for Christ. The angry Pasha Ahmed pronounced his sentence: death.

rejected again and spurned ....

The old tailor gave one final exhortation to his fellow prisoners and knelt before the executioner. The blade fell and decapitated him, but then, as the chronicler Saverio de Marco claimed in the Compendiosa istoria degli ottocento martiri otrantini ("The Brief History of the 800 Martyrs of Otranto"), the headless corpse stood back upright. The body supposedly proved unmovable, so it remained standing for the entire duration of the gruesome executions. Stunned by this apparent miracle, one of the executioners converted on the spot and was immediately killed. The executioners then returned to their horrendous business. The bodies were placed into a mass grave, and the Turks prepared to begin their march up the peninsula toward Rome. Otranto was in ruins, its population gone, its men dead and thrown into a pit, seemingly to be forgotten.

How the 800 Martyrs of Otranto Saved Rome

link

As alike it is with all legends .... this particular version is disputed by the Turkish historians .... wiki link

~edit : link fix

Edited by third_eye

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Coming to a town near you. (Sooner than you think!)

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Posted (edited)

Pope Francis is "damned if he does and damned if he doesn't" he has already kissed the feet of a Muslim on Maundy thursday and the world gasps tsk tsk! Then he canonises the Roman Catholics beheaded for not converting to Islam and is diplomatic by not slamming Islam for it. Everyone who is RCC knows that interrelationship with other faiths is important for good dialogue. So, perhaps Pope Francis has 'erred' on the side of not trying to flame another faith for something that happened hundreds of years ago. More importantly Islam is not off the hook or any other faith for that matter. For those who murder Christians he has made it clear in his not so 'veiled' message:

""Let us ask God to sustain those many Christians who, in these times and in many parts of the world, right now, still suffer violence, and give them the courage and fidelity to respond to evil with good,”

Edited by Star of the Sea
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Were all the 800 new saints from that one battle who were beheaded?

What were the background on the others?

This seems highly unusual, is there any historical precedent?

To my non-Catholic mind it almost seems that there is a spiritual battle going on and that more saints were needed as backup?

Sort of like the military "surge" America pushed in Afghanistan?

Of course my view is uninformed, could a Catholic or someone knowledgable of their history and current situation chime in?

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THe many historical accounts of the 'Pagan' and 'Judaic' mass suicides rather than yield was prevalent and highly revered in those times and age, I guess Christendom too wants a bit of the action ....

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This seems highly unusual, is there any historical precedent?

I believe it is highly unusual. The requirements for canonization include two miracles that can be ascribed to that person. So I was wondering how did they verify all these necessary miracles? Short answer, they didn't, they were fast tracked.

"Roman Catholic sainthood requires that two miracles be attributed to those who are being made saints - one before beatification, and another before canonisation. In the case of the 813 Italians, the requirement for the first miracle was waived because they were killed 'in hatred of the faith'.

The miracle approved for their canonisation was that of a nun who had cancer which, according to the Church, was healed after she prayed at a memorial to the martyrs in Otranto."

News source.

There have been lots of martyrs, but that doesn't automatically mean they have achieved sainthood. Oh well, who am I to judge.

/shrug

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What a farce for the Pope to name certain Catholics as saints. The Bible calls everyone who is born again and has dedicated themselves to Jesus Christ to be a saint regardless of what they have done and what miracle has happened. The apostles wrote all those letters to saints who were also brethren and servants in Christ. Some were "saints scattered abroad."

A Pope cannot declare one a saint based upon some work and always a Catholic. He actually doesn't have a right. UGH!

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What a farce for the Pope to name certain Catholics as saints. The Bible calls everyone who is born again and has dedicated themselves to Jesus Christ to be a saint regardless of what they have done and what miracle has happened. The apostles wrote all those letters to saints who were also brethren and servants in Christ. Some were "saints scattered abroad."

A Pope cannot declare one a saint based upon some work and always a Catholic. He actually doesn't have a right. UGH!

If the Pope wishes to recognise someone as a Saint it's his prerogative. You're NOT Catholic so what's your beef? How does it affect your life? How does it affect your faith? Copen are you a Saint? :no:

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I believe it is highly unusual. The requirements for canonization include two miracles that can be ascribed to that person. So I was wondering how did they verify all these necessary miracles? Short answer, they didn't, they were fast tracked.

"Roman Catholic sainthood requires that two miracles be attributed to those who are being made saints - one before beatification, and another before canonisation. In the case of the 813 Italians, the requirement for the first miracle was waived because they were killed 'in hatred of the faith'.

The miracle approved for their canonisation was that of a nun who had cancer which, according to the Church, was healed after she prayed at a memorial to the martyrs in Otranto."

News source.

There have been lots of martyrs, but that doesn't automatically mean they have achieved sainthood. Oh well, who am I to judge.

/shrug

1. Skipping the first miracle and 2. using one miracle but extending it to abscribe a whole group as responsible?

I am not being overly critical and it is all interesting, so it is more for interest's sake that I ask, but are there any precedents for either 1 or 2?

I kind of like the idea of the power of a group collectively causing a miracle but is it unusual?

What is the reasoning behind canonizing so many saints in one go?

Anyone have theories?

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Posted (edited)

1. Skipping the first miracle and 2. using one miracle but extending it to ascribe a whole group as responsible?

I am not being overly critical and it is all interesting, so it is more for interest's sake that I ask, but are there any precedents for either 1 or 2?

I kind of like the idea of the power of a group collectively causing a miracle but is it unusual?

What is the reasoning behind canonizing so many saints in one go?

Anyone have theories?

Hi,

In the case of the 813 Italians the requirement for the first miracle was waived because they were killed 'in hatred of the faith.' So it was a 'collective canonisation' by Pope Francis under unusual circumstances as a large group died together for their Catholic faith.

Edited by Star of the Sea
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That part was explained clearly in redhen's post and linked article.

Do you know if that has ever been done before? Precedent is what I was wondering about.

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Apologies, I missed redhen's post.

I don't think this is setting a precedent. The Pope has only to make a declaration of martyrdom, a certification that the venerable gave his or her life voluntarily as a witness for the faith. It just happened that there were 813.. I can't find any information on such a large group of Catholics being canonised together, but maybe this is just a one off event in time. The Pope obviously decided that they should be canonised together as they died together, which would make perfect sense to me.

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If the Pope wishes to recognise someone as a Saint it's his prerogative. You're NOT Catholic so what's your beef? How does it affect your life? How does it affect your faith? Copen are you a Saint? :no:

Hey, you are right. You Catholics worship the Pope in false spirit and untruths all you want to. Since the scriptures say we are not to esteem one Christian over another nor to set special honors on one over another, thought you just might want to know. Paul didn't always spout compliments. He named names and told how they went against his teachings and caused many Christians to be led astray. The broad way is wide enough for lots of company. I'm sure you have lots of company. So be it.

God bless us all is my prayer.

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Apologies, I missed redhen's post.

I don't think this is setting a precedent. The Pope has only to make a declaration of martyrdom, a certification that the venerable gave his or her life voluntarily as a witness for the faith. It just happened that there were 813.. I can't find any information on such a large group of Catholics being canonised together, but maybe this is just a one off event in time. The Pope obviously decided that they should be canonised together as they died together, which would make perfect sense to me.

It is perfectly reasonable to mention those martyred for Christ and for the Word; but they were saints before they were martyred or even if they were not martyred. He's just trying to get everybody to like him, follow him, worship him for being sooooooooooooo nice.

God bless

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Hey, you are right. You Catholics worship the Pope in false spirit and untruths all you want to. Since the scriptures say we are not to esteem one Christian over another nor to set special honors on one over another, thought you just might want to know. Paul didn't always spout compliments. He named names and told how they went against his teachings and caused many Christians to be led astray. The broad way is wide enough for lots of company. I'm sure you have lots of company. So be it.

God bless us all is my prayer.

Copen you make me smile! Now we worship the Pope :w00t: But it was okay for the early martyrs to be recognised, but by whom? God bless you too in your search for the truth :tu:

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It is perfectly reasonable to mention those martyred for Christ and for the Word; but they were saints before they were martyred or even if they were not martyred. He's just trying to get everybody to like him, follow him, worship him for being sooooooooooooo nice.

God bless

Sheesh Copen, you have a convoluted way of thinking :unsure2:

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Posted (edited)

Hey, you are right. You Catholics worship the Pope in false spirit and untruths all you want to. Since the scriptures say we are not to esteem one Christian over another nor to set special honors on one over another, thought you just might want to know. Paul didn't always spout compliments. He named names and told how they went against his teachings and caused many Christians to be led astray. The broad way is wide enough for lots of company. I'm sure you have lots of company. So be it.

God bless us all is my prayer.

Could you provide scriptural evidence for this?

It seems a way to be exclusionary and judge others for their actions. Romans 2:1 seems quite clear that we do not have the authority to judge others. Romans 2:16 tells us specifically who does have that authority.

If one believes in their mind that only they and those who agree with them are on the right path and everyone else will not go to heaven then they are indeed judging others.

It is perfectly reasonable to mention those martyred for Christ and for the Word; but they were saints before they were martyred or even if they were not martyred. He's just trying to get everybody to like him, follow him, worship him for being sooooooooooooo nice.

God bless

I am certain it was not done just to "get everybody to like him". It still seems like a fantastic first leaving me with great speculation as to why this precedent was set. While some might simply take it for granted and dismiss my awe it still seems something quite special to me and I would like to know the rationale behind it.

Edited by Leave Britney alone!
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Could you provide scriptural evidence for this?

It seems a way to be exclusionary and judge others for their actions. Romans 2:1 seems quite clear that we do not have the authority to judge others. Romans 2:16 tells us specifically who does have that authority.

If one believes in their mind that only they and those who agree with them are on the right path and everyone else will not go to heaven then they are indeed judging others.

No quite sure what you want scripture of. You want to know who Paul mentioned in an unkind judgmental way??? Well, how about II Tim. 1:15 "...all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes." II Tim. 2:17: "And their word will eat as doth a canker (spreading sore); of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;" II Tim. 4: 10 & 14 "Demas hath forsaken me...""Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil; THE LORD REWARD HIM ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS:" Sounds like Paul made a judgement call there.

Are you wanting to know where we are told not to esteem one Christian over another? There are more which I can give if you want; for for now how about Revelation 22:8 "I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. when saith he unto me, SEE THOU DO IT NOT: for I am thy fellowserfant and of thy brethren of the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God."

If you ever get into OLD church history books you might find that Catholic priests have declared other Christians to be atheists and had them killed because they would not kneel down and kiss their ring. Does the Pope get lots of kneeled Christians kissing his ring? Oh yes!!! That's because he is better than the other Christians. He deserves their worship. - - - WRONG!!!

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Posted (edited)

Hey, you are right. You Catholics worship the Pope in false spirit and untruths all you want to. Since the scriptures say we are not to esteem one Christian over another nor to set special honors on one over another, thought you just might want to know. Paul didn't always spout compliments. He named names and told how they went against his teachings and caused many Christians to be led astray. The broad way is wide enough for lots of company. I'm sure you have lots of company. So be it.

God bless us all is my prayer.

The part in bold above specifically. Any scriptural evidence for that?

Edited by Leave Britney alone!

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