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trancelikestate

Question for vegetarians

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So I personally agree that the way animals are generally raised today for our consuption is wrong and I understand why some people choose to be vegetarians.

What about free run animals which are treated well their whole life? How do you vegetarians feel about the idea of eating them?

Is it still "wrong" in your opinons to eat such animals? Keep in mind most of animals farmed like that would have never been born if not for the need to farm them.

So the philisophical question I have here is, Is it better to have lived a good life with the destiny of one day being killed and consumed or to not have experianced life to begin with?

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Posted (edited)

excluding the vegetarians who don't eat meat because of the taste.

the question posed puts vegetarians in a position where there is only 2 wrong answers. if I choose answer 1 'Is it better to have lived a good life with the destiny of one day being killed and consumed?', I would be allowing life but only shortly, a good life would be assumed to be long, a lamb is killed in its first year. a sheep's name in its second year is a hogget and in its third a sheep. we could eat mutton but its not as nice to eat and more cost effective for lambs to be killed.

answer 2 'to not have experienced life to begin with?', at first could make a vegetarian feel bad but animals they would survive in the wild if mans influence hadn't domesticated them. yes there would be predators who would kill the slow and the weak, but this doesn't compare to the mass production of lambs that die for our consumption. what about all the possible lambs who could of been born if were able to reach adolescence and make their own little lambs.

vegetarians promote life by not eating meat, but life is still extinguished by other consumers who don't hold the same view. is it silly to stick to your views when every one acts to the contrary?, maybe, but not every one wants to be sheeple ;)

p.s im a meat eater and this message is going to make me feel even more guilty when eating my favourite choice of meat 'lamb', thanks for the philosophical questions made me think.

Edited by Armchair Educated
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Posted (edited)

So I personally agree that the way animals are generally raised today for our consuption is wrong and I understand why some people choose to be vegetarians.

Glad to hear that.

What about free run animals which are treated well their whole life? How do you vegetarians feel about the idea of eating them?

You mean "happy meat"? Male chicks are still killed, whether individually on a small hobby farm or in an industrial grinder in a factory farm.

Is it still "wrong" in your opinons to eat such animals? Keep in mind most of animals farmed like that would have never been born if not for the need to farm them.

So the philisophical question I have here is, Is it better to have lived a good life with the destiny of one day being killed and consumed or to not have experianced life to begin with?

Let me quote an excerpt from Gary Francione, law professor and philosopher, from his FAQ;

"No. The fact that we are in some sense responsible for the existence of a being does not give us the right to treat that being as our resource. Were that so, then we could treat our children as resources. After all, they would not exist were it not for our actions–from decisions to conceive to decisions not to abort"

Here's one of his articles on happy meat.

Edited by redhen
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vegetarians promote life by not eating meat, but life is still extinguished by other consumers who don't hold the same view. is it silly to stick to your views when every one acts to the contrary?, maybe, but not every one wants to be sheeple ;)

argumentum ad populum

p.s im a meat eater and this message is going to make me feel even more guilty when eating my favourite choice of meat 'lamb', thanks for the philosophical questions made me think.

Emotions of guilt? Good, that means something does not jive with your moral beliefs. This essay than should prove to you The immorality of eating meat, using no new arguments, just the beliefs that you already hold.

And for someone who lives in Plato's cave, the logic should be inescapable. So the question is, how much cognitive dissonance can you live with?

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argumentum ad populum

Emotions of guilt? Good.

.

does a lion feel guilt when it eats a gazelle?

does a fox feel self-loathing when it eats a chicken?

does a rabbit feel immoral when it eats a lettuce?

no. because that is the natural order of things. there is a reason why it's called a 'food chain', and a reason why we're at the top.

what you fail to realise, is that being a vegetarian is a choice. eating meat is a choice. but yet you somehow claim your choice is more valid than ours? why is that? worse than that, you villify us for our choice, and call us immoral. why is that? do you feel guilt when you deprive a tomato of its existence? and if not, why not? showing contempt for another's choice, when it's the same choice as yours but just the other side of the coin is the lowest form of hypocrisy.

you don't mourn for your food, so why should we?

.

the question is, how much cognitive dissonance can you live with?

.

for a bacon sandwich?

I would feel nothing at all.

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.

for a bacon sandwich?

I would feel nothing at all.

Behold the power of L-glutamate receptors!

see Umami

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Posted (edited)

"No. The fact that we are in some sense responsible for the existence of a being does not give us the right to treat that being as our resource. Were that so, then we could treat our children as resources. After all, they would not exist were it not for our actions–from decisions to conceive to decisions not to abort"

Here's one of his articles on happy meat.

One mans opinion I guess.

I personally would have rather lived an enjoyable life even if it meant I had a time of death predetermined for whatever means that may be. Wouldn't you?

Edited by trancelikestate

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You mean "happy meat"? Male chicks are still killed, whether individually on a small hobby farm or in an industrial grinder in a factory farm.

False. I grew up on a "hobby farm" and yes roosters were usually the first consumed, but no we didn't kill male chicks. This is the type of farm I'm referring to, not one which does or the factory farms. As I originally stated I agree those are pretty screwed up.

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Behold the power of L-glutamate receptors!

see Umami

.

nothing wrong with umami red hen!

I don't care for sweet things much, being more of a savoury kinda guy, and i'd much rather have a samosa than a bar of chocolate any day of the week!!

:-)

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False. I grew up on a "hobby farm" and yes roosters were usually the first consumed, but no we didn't kill male chicks. This is the type of farm I'm referring to, not one which does or the factory farms. As I originally stated I agree those are pretty screwed up.

.

where I live TLS, i'm surrounded by farms, so I get to see the living conditions of the animals, and only buy my meat from farms that do their own butchery as opposed to buying from supermarkets where you've no idea where the meat is sourced from, so my conscience is pretty clear when I eat a sausage!

:-)

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animals are dangerous.

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I personally would have rather lived an enjoyable life even if it meant I had a time of death predetermined for whatever means that may be. Wouldn't you?

I think this is a categorical error. It's one thing for you to voluntarily submit to slaughter and being consumed, it's quite another matter when it's applied to animals that weren't asked their for their opinion.

False. I grew up on a "hobby farm" and yes roosters were usually the first consumed, but no we didn't kill male chicks. This is the type of farm I'm referring to, not one which does or the factory farms. As I originally stated I agree those are pretty screwed up.

Yes, I agree, small family farms are much more ethical than factory farms. I wish we could go back in time when this was the norm.

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animals are dangerous.

Are you trying to make an argument? If so, you need at least one more premise, which can also be your main conclusion, i.e.

animals are dangerous.

thus, it is morally ok to kill and eat them.

Is that your argument?

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Are you trying to make an argument? If so, you need at least one more premise, which can also be your main conclusion, i.e.

animals are dangerous.

thus, it is morally ok to kill and eat them.

Is that your argument?

haha I hope not, thats a terrible argument. By that logic we should turn to cannabalism because humans are the most dangerous animals of them all.

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I think this is a categorical error. It's one thing for you to voluntarily submit to slaughter and being consumed, it's quite another matter when it's applied to animals that weren't asked their for their opinion.

Yes, I agree, small family farms are much more ethical than factory farms. I wish we could go back in time when this was the norm.

No I mean even if it wasnt my choice, the exact same situation as any animal, I'd rather be born and eaten than not be born at all. but thats just another mans opinion.

and ya, there should be more family farms but unfortunalty theres too much money to be made and many people nowadays are to urbanized and wouldnt know where to begin if they resettled out of the city anyway

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Oh I wanted to add something to the discussion but wasn't sure where to start. So I thought I'd just point out that animals can be deadly to humans & so vegetarians or people who want animals to roam free should consider that survival may come down to kill the animals or be killed.

Also I believe that plants are living entities, & so vegetarians are in an illusion if they imagine that vegetarians are non violent.

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Oh I wanted to add something to the discussion but wasn't sure where to start. So I thought I'd just point out that animals can be deadly to humans & so vegetarians or people who want animals to roam free should consider that survival may come down to kill the animals or be killed.

Also I believe that plants are living entities, & so vegetarians are in an illusion if they imagine that vegetarians are non violent.

Actualy I brought up the point in another discussion that turned into a meat vs veggie debate. the point kind of fits here as well.

"Don't underestimate the life in plants. They communicate with eachother, react to being hurt and respond to their environment just like any other life form and on a cellular level they are just as alive and actually more complicated then we are.

Scientists have also learnt in recent years that lower life forms such as insects and even fish, lack the full nervous system we have, They don't "feel" like we do, including pain, and it may be possible they are just creatures of pure instinctual programming.

We need to consume life in order to live ourselves. It's just the way nature works. That said it I do believe we need to show more respect to the animals we eat and society as a whole should shift to a more plant based diet as it is far more sustainable and better for the environment and therefore everyone."

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Oh I wanted to add something to the discussion but wasn't sure where to start. So I thought I'd just point out that animals can be deadly to humans & so vegetarians or people who want animals to roam free should consider that survival may come down to kill the animals or be killed.

Indeed. Bears are becoming more of a hazard recently, probably because people have easier access to the forests. Polar bears will actually hunt humans. That said, I don't blame indigenous peoples, for example Eskimos, whose only reliable source of food is meat.

Also I believe that plants are living entities, & so vegetarians are in an illusion if they imagine that vegetarians are non violent.

Yes they are living organisms, but I don't think they feel pain. However I've been feeling twinges of guilt lately while violently pulling out dandelions. All this recent talk of plant communication may be getting to me.

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No I mean even if it wasnt my choice, the exact same situation as any animal, I'd rather be born and eaten than not be born at all. but thats just another mans opinion.

Well, I think this is more of an existential question rather than a moral one. Existential questions make my head spin. :blink:

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Posted (edited)

Oh I wanted to add something to the discussion but wasn't sure where to start. So I thought I'd just point out that animals can be deadly to humans & so vegetarians or people who want animals to roam free should consider that survival may come down to kill the animals or be killed.

Also I believe that plants are living entities, & so vegetarians are in an illusion if they imagine that vegetarians are non violent.

Awesome. I will add to this sentiment. Does anyone realize that it takes MODERN AGRICULTURE to allow vegetarians to even exist. Do modern vegetarians understand that many things die, and ecologies are ruined to support agriculture. It's rediculous actually. If a vegetarian is not a hunter gatherer style vegetarian, then you have no basis in morality nor logic. A health choice, just to avoid the pitfalls... I'm all for it. As long as you do not attach a moral argument.

Edited by Seeker79
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Awesome. I will add to this sentiment. Does anyone realize that it takes MODERN AGRICULTURE to allow vegetarians to even exist. Do modern vegetarians understand that many things die, and ecologies are ruined to support agriculture. It's rediculous actually. If a vegetarian is not a hunter gatherer style vegetarian, then you have no basis in morality nor logic. A health choice, just to avoid the pitfalls... I'm all for it. As long as you do not attach a moral argument.

I don't think the moral arugment of vegetarians is about the destruction of ecosystems, it's about whether or not killing for our own good is right or not.

On the topic of mass agriculture, destruction of the natural world is unfortunatly unavoidable with the exponential growth of our race. There is still alot that can be done though. If the land used for cattle were instead used to grow crops for example, there would be enough to feed the entire world, or so I've read. If people in cities used there yards to grow some of their own food, instead of having fretting over perfect lawns, it would also reduce some of the need for mass argiculture and help reduce the damage we need to do in order to live.

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I don't think the moral arugment of vegetarians is about the destruction of ecosystems, it's about whether or not killing for our own good is right or not.

On the topic of mass agriculture, destruction of the natural world is unfortunatly unavoidable with the exponential growth of our race. There is still alot that can be done though. If the land used for cattle were instead used to grow crops for example, there would be enough to feed the entire world, or so I've read. If people in cities used there yards to grow some of their own food, instead of having fretting over perfect lawns, it would also reduce some of the need for mass argiculture and help reduce the damage we need to do in order to live.

Right, but it's a double standard. It's not ok to hunt or raise and kill an animal, but it's ok plow a field destroying the natural structure of the soil while displacing or ruining animals and other natural processes. Then to support the agriculture waterways must be diverted, pesticides and herbicides dumped on everything, and the crop protected with deadly force or poison from wikd animals that would feed off of it. There is plenty of death and pain associated with plant based foods in a large society not to mention massive ecological damage from poor soil and water Managment. Ever hear of the dust bowl.

Much of the land that cattle graze ( excluding junk like feed lots) was grazed by many other animals in precolumbian times that were decimated by over hunting ( elk, deer, buffalo etc etc). The grazing cattle actually replaces and important factor in the ecosystem. Without it the ecosystem

Grows unchecked and nutrients are not process and redistributed in the soil properly. Often on public lands we allow ranchers to graze cattle there to replace the elk and or buffalo Herds that we're once very numerous. Grazing cattle on land is a very very good thing as long as its not structured like a feed lot.

It is certainly avoidable by structuring farms within the rythems and cycles of nature. It can actually be well over 30 times more efficient and the amount of product per acre multiplied many times over without the use of pesticides, herbicides, gmos, or inhumane treatment of animals.

In addition animals play a very important roll in providing fertilizer and organically enriched soil, without them it would be very hard to sustain a plant based food system without the use of chemical fertilizers like ammonium nitrate ( CAAABBOOOOOOOOMMMM!!!!! :(

All in all vegetarians really have no moral ground to stand plant based agriculture for large populations is much more destructive than ranching or animal based products, and actually in many cases rides on the back of animal production, not to mention the large amount fossil fuels that are used to produce and transport agricultural products. Without modern infrastructure built on fossil fuels vegitarians would not be able to find the right kinds of proteins and fats they need to live and would succumb to range of malnutrition problems.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/216733-what-are-the-consequences-of-a-diet-with-not-enough-fat/

Yes we need to be as humane as possible something we are doing a p*** poor job of amoung other things, but animal production must an integrual part of sustainable and healthy agricultural systems that can very easily feed this world and the world of the future. Hopfully we will wake up to these facts.

This documentary shows how organic sustainable farming within tge rythems of nature is much more productive and healthy than current wide spread practices.

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Right, but it's a double standard. It's not ok to hunt or raise and kill an animal, but it's ok plow a field destroying the natural structure of the soil while displacing or ruining animals and other natural processes.

Land is not being massively converted to agricultural fields solely to grow crops for vegetarians. If I'm wrong on this, please show me the evidence.

There are several formal logical fallacies in your argument, straw men, red herrings and the biggest one; tu quoque or "look who's talking".

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to kind of bring it back to your original question OP, 'if you were an animal, and you knew you were going to be eaten, would you rather not be born at all, the answer is simple-

YOU know you're going to die at some point, would you rather not have existed, or would you rather have lived until you died....?

I know what my answer would be!

.

as everyone's favourite smackhead, renton once said, 'CHOOSE LIFE!!'

:-)

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