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trancelikestate

Question for vegetarians

66 posts in this topic

Right, but it's a double standard. It's not ok to hunt or raise and kill an animal, but it's ok plow a field destroying the natural structure of the soil while displacing or ruining animals and other natural processes. Then to support the agriculture waterways must be diverted, pesticides and herbicides dumped on everything, and the crop protected with deadly force or poison from wikd animals that would feed off of it. There is plenty of death and pain associated with plant based foods in a large society not to mention massive ecological damage from poor soil and water Managment. Ever hear of the dust bowl.

Much of the land that cattle graze ( excluding junk like feed lots) was grazed by many other animals in precolumbian times that were decimated by over hunting ( elk, deer, buffalo etc etc). The grazing cattle actually replaces and important factor in the ecosystem. Without it the ecosystem

Grows unchecked and nutrients are not process and redistributed in the soil properly. Often on public lands we allow ranchers to graze cattle there to replace the elk and or buffalo Herds that we're once very numerous. Grazing cattle on land is a very very good thing as long as its not structured like a feed lot.

It is certainly avoidable by structuring farms within the rythems and cycles of nature. It can actually be well over 30 times more efficient and the amount of product per acre multiplied many times over without the use of pesticides, herbicides, gmos, or inhumane treatment of animals.

In addition animals play a very important roll in providing fertilizer and organically enriched soil, without them it would be very hard to sustain a plant based food system without the use of chemical fertilizers like ammonium nitrate ( CAAABBOOOOOOOOMMMM!!!!! :(

All in all vegetarians really have no moral ground to stand plant based agriculture for large populations is much more destructive than ranching or animal based products, and actually in many cases rides on the back of animal production, not to mention the large amount fossil fuels that are used to produce and transport agricultural products. Without modern infrastructure built on fossil fuels vegitarians would not be able to find the right kinds of proteins and fats they need to live and would succumb to range of malnutrition problems.

http://www.livestron...not-enough-fat/

Yes we need to be as humane as possible something we are doing a p*** poor job of amoung other things, but animal production must an integrual part of sustainable and healthy agricultural systems that can very easily feed this world and the world of the future. Hopfully we will wake up to these facts.

This documentary shows how organic sustainable farming within tge rythems of nature is much more productive and healthy than current wide spread practices.

[media=]

Farming animals for meat is "hunting" them, is it? Do you hunt for the meat you consume? If you do, fair play to you. If you just pop down to your local supermarket, you have no leg to stand on.

For the few comments that vegetarians should feel bad, also, because plants communicate with one another, are they actually aware that fruits and things don't actually kill (nor presumably harm) plants they come from? An apple falls from a tree..the tree doesn't die. Also, it's not news that plants are living things.

How ridiculous to compare that to the slaughter mankind inflicts upon wildlife day in, day out. The attempt to try and demonise vegetarians too comes from a deep rooted personal guilt and desperate justification for their own indulgences.

Just imo of course :tu:

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Posted (edited)

So I personally agree that the way animals are generally raised today for our consuption is wrong and I understand why some people choose to be vegetarians.

I'm glad you agree.

What about free run animals which are treated well their whole life? How do you vegetarians feel about the idea of eating them?

I went vegetarian when I was 17 because I had a love for wildlife and animals in general. It was later I actually discovered the extent of the disgusting workings of the meat industry and that turned me off the idea of ever going back (not that I wanted to). As far as I'm concerned, I've lived a healthy life for 8 years and I see no reason why I would go back to eating meat. Without any meat or fish, my body (and mind) is in tip top condition so why would I go back? Just for the taste of bacon, chicken or whatever else? Well, that would be pretty damn selfish of me. To expect animals to die just so I could eat them for the mere taste. At least those that try to argue (despite being wrong) the point they need meat/fish for a healthy lifestyle actually think they need it for more than just the taste. There's plenty of meat alternatives, many I can't even tell the difference from. Though I personally eat a lot of rice, pasta, vegetables, fruit etc. To put it simply: I wouldn't consider eating "free run" animals either.

Is it still "wrong" in your opinons to eat such animals? Keep in mind most of animals farmed like that would have never been born if not for the need to farm them.

Of course they could still have been born, in a non-farming lifestyle. The animals are perfectly capable of reproducing. You're trying to say that it's okay to eat "free range" animals because they weren't kept in cages, yet they'll still be killed for human consumption. That's simply just the better of two evils to me, doesn't actually make it something acceptable to me. Have you ever watched an animal be killed? Have you seen the fear in their eyes? The squeals of panic? It's heart breaking. And for what? Because there's a lot of selfish people in this world who couldn't possibly go without their favourite tasting meats. Just the bottom line for me.

So the philisophical question I have here is, Is it better to have lived a good life with the destiny of one day being killed and consumed or to not have experianced life to begin with?

Here's an idea. How about we let the animals live without being killed to be consumed in any way by us, period, and we still go on living healthy :o matter of fact..the human population would probably get a whole lot damn healthier and nobody can say that ain't needed.

PS: most of my friends and all my family are meat eaters; it's not my place to preach to them. If they ask me why I don't eat meat, I'll tell them and more often than not, I give them information about the farming of animals they didn't even know which does tend to shock people (and it has turned a few people I've told) but ultimately it's their decision and it's their conscience. Yeah, I do think it's a bit selfish/ignorant of them (or anybody really) to continue eating meat but I have flaws of my own :tu:

Edited by Heaven Is A Halfpipe
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Posted (edited)

argumentum ad populum

Emotions of guilt? Good, that means something does not jive with your moral beliefs. This essay than should prove to you The immorality of eating meat, using no new arguments, just the beliefs that you already hold.

And for someone who lives in Plato's cave, the logic should be inescapable. So the question is, how much cognitive dissonance can you live with?

I gave up meat for lent once and became very ill, I used all the alternative protein foods I could but it still didn't help me. please don't be so judgy, you don't know me. ive struggled my whole life with my diet having a metabolism that burns off fat sitting down, so if Im unable to store carbs, I cant give up meat or id waste away.

p.s theres nothing wrong with pleasing the majority when theirs no ill repercussions, I come here for enjoyment and I have many displeasing views that people don't agree with on this forum.

Edited by Armchair Educated
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The attempt to try and demonise vegetarians too comes from a deep rooted personal guilt and desperate justification for their own indulgences.

Just imo of course :tu:

.

you keep telling yourself that.

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Posted (edited)

haha I hope not, thats a terrible argument. By that logic we should turn to cannabalism because humans are the most dangerous animals of them all.

Aint so terrible argument if you're for voluntary, responsible cannibalism. Well or is, why need a pretext for that. It's gotten us through hard times before.

and plants are livinf beings, so I think it's fair to admit that we dont know dor sure whether they feel pain or not. Plants do thrive more wheb gardener's mood is better too. But we dont have to feel bad about it because plants eventually eat us too. You could say we're already very indirect cannibals.

Edited by Mikko-kun
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Posted (edited)

Land is not being massively converted to agricultural fields solely to grow crops for vegetarians. If I'm wrong on this, please show me the evidence.

There are several formal logical fallacies in your argument, straw men, red herrings and the biggest one; tu quoque or "look who's talking".

[media=]

[/media]

You are miss understanding me. I'm not saying its wrong to grow crops, im just talking about the double standard being applied. This is not a formal debate, indeed I am just pointing out the hypocracy. If we apply these sentiments then no one will eat. I don't have an argument against being a vegetarian it's vegetarians calling eating meat immoral that I have an issue with. They do not seem to want to apply the same standards to what goes into supplying them with their own food. Even if they are elevating animals animals still suffer through eating only plants just not as direct.

I guess if you tell me that punching somone in the face wrong and then do it yourself it is still wrong, but we are talking about food here. In this case we might as well say its immoral to live.

By the way, the video was pretty funny, but I was not saying that it's ok for me to eat meat because eating Vegies causes damage to. I offered up real solutions Faced in agriculture. I don't think it's immoral to eat either, but I do think it's important to be concious of how it was produced and how that fits into ones moral structure.

Edited by Seeker79
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I gave up meat for lent once and became very ill, I used all the alternative protein foods I could but it still didn't help me. please don't be so judgy, you don't know me. ive struggled my whole life with my diet having a metabolism that burns off fat sitting down, so if Im unable to store carbs, I cant give up meat or id waste away.

Certainly, there are always exceptions. The Dalai Lama, who allegedly is the reincarnation of the Buddhist Lord of Compassion (Avalokiteśvara) eats meat, under his doctors instructions.

p.s theres nothing wrong with pleasing the majority when theirs no ill repercussions, I come here for enjoyment and I have many displeasing views that people don't agree with on this forum.

Same here.

cheers

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You are miss understanding me. I'm not saying its wrong to grow crops,

You wrote; "Do modern vegetarians understand that many things die, and ecologies are ruined to support agriculture. It's rediculous actually. "

So is it ok to grow crops or not? Or just not for vegans?

im just talking about the double standard being applied. This is not a formal debate, indeed I am just pointing out the hypocracy.

You also invoked logic; "If a vegetarian is not a hunter gatherer style vegetarian, then you have no basis in morality nor logic."

To which I invoked the tu quoque fallacy.

I don't have an argument against being a vegetarian it's vegetarians calling eating meat immoral that I have an issue with.

What's your issue, besides the fallacious argument you keep repeating? If you live in a modern agricultural society, you don't need to eat meat. Eating meat entails pain and suffering, which is also unnecessary, and thus cruel.

They do not seem to want to apply the same standards to what goes into supplying them with their own food. Even if they are elevating animals animals still suffer through eating only plants just not as direct.

I'm not following you here, are you suggesting we eat only carnivores?

I guess if you tell me that punching somone in the face wrong and then do it yourself it is still wrong, but we are talking about food here. In this case we might as well say its immoral to live.

Ok I see the problem. It looks like you believe that humans must eat meat in order to survive. To which my answer is Carl Lewis, 9 times Olympic Gold medalist, and vegan.

By the way, the video was pretty funny, but I was not saying that it's ok for me to eat meat because eating Vegies causes damage to.

But that's exactly what you said, and called it hypocrisy.

Nothing personal here. I don't know you. I'm not attacking you. I'm just practicing my logic and rhetoric skills.

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Certainly, there are always exceptions. The Dalai Lama, who allegedly is the reincarnation of the Buddhist Lord of Compassion (Avalokiteśvara) eats meat, under his doctors instructions.

Same here.

cheers

that's cool, soz for being over sensitive in my previous comment, I was writing it in the early hours with half my mental faculties working lol

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Not eating meat will not stop animals being killed inhumane way. Buying from your local farmer or from organic free range or if you have the land buy live stock and kill your own this will help in reducing numbers of animals being killed inhumane way. Animals brain is not as complex as our brain they do not know the concept of time nor do they have any understanding of how long they could live for. Killing animals I believe is not wrong because that is how humans over the years have survived what is wrong now is the amount of food wastage people create.

If you want to perform at your best then you have to supply your brain with the right fuels. Unlike back in the old times people did not have supplements so they needed to eat a good source of meat products.

Being a vegetarian makes fuelling your body correctly a hard task. For example our body needs EPA and DHA which is found in fish, tuna, salmon if you are lacking it may result in learning difficulties and heart disease. Vegetarian would need to eat sufficient quantities of flaxseeds roughly three tablespoons of ground seeds.

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Posted (edited)

let'see who started demonising who shall we?

.

http://www.unexplain...pic=247846&st=0

.

can you say hypocrisy....?

What's your point? I do consider the mass slaughter of animals just for selfish indulges a "demonic" act. Problem?

It just staggers me that some people can't comprehend the vegetarian argument and despite everything, even if they're shown the slaughter first hand...they still think this slaughter is okay. And for what? The only possible argument in todays world is the taste...sue me for thinking it's selfish to expect animals to die so you can enjoy the taste of them.

Doesn't mean I'm calling YOU a bad person, I just consider it a flaw. I got plenty of my own. I'm sure you're a grand fella.

Edited by Heaven Is A Halfpipe
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Not eating meat will not stop animals being killed inhumane way. Buying from your local farmer or from organic free range or if you have the land buy live stock and kill your own this will help in reducing numbers of animals being killed inhumane way. Animals brain is not as complex as our brain they do not know the concept of time nor do they have any understanding of how long they could live for. Killing animals I believe is not wrong because that is how humans over the years have survived what is wrong now is the amount of food wastage people create.

If you want to perform at your best then you have to supply your brain with the right fuels. Unlike back in the old times people did not have supplements so they needed to eat a good source of meat products.

Being a vegetarian makes fuelling your body correctly a hard task. For example our body needs EPA and DHA which is found in fish, tuna, salmon if you are lacking it may result in learning difficulties and heart disease. Vegetarian would need to eat sufficient quantities of flaxseeds roughly three tablespoons of ground seeds.

I agree. Thank heavens it's been proven time and time again (without supplements) that a meat/fish free diet can do just that. You know what that means... no more animals should need to die. :tu:

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You wrote; "Do modern vegetarians understand that many things die, and ecologies are ruined to support agriculture. It's rediculous actually. "

So is it ok to grow crops or not? Or just not for vegans?

You also invoked logic; "If a vegetarian is not a hunter gatherer style vegetarian, then you have no basis in morality nor logic."

To which I invoked the tu quoque fallacy.

What's your issue, besides the fallacious argument you keep repeating? If you live in a modern agricultural society, you don't need to eat meat. Eating meat entails pain and suffering, which is also unnecessary, and thus cruel.

I'm not following you here, are you suggesting we eat only carnivores?

Ok I see the problem. It looks like you believe that humans must eat meat in order to survive. To which my answer is Carl Lewis, 9 times Olympic Gold medalist, and vegan.

But that's exactly what you said, and called it hypocrisy.

Nothing personal here. I don't know you. I'm not attacking you. I'm just practicing my logic and rhetoric skills.

Hahaha, no problem I do it all the time. I guess i am using an appeal to hypocrisy. Let me try again.

The moral argument against eating meat is founded on the premis that we should cause no unnecessary pain and suffering (P&S) to other animals. Pain and suffering is a bad thing. Bad things should be avoided. If we really want to get to the bottoms of this we should assign a unit of badness and goodnes. Ill call the unit a B & G.

The first thing that becomes apparent is that if animals can be raised in good natural environments like humane organic farming, then killed instantly without ever knowing or feeling the instrument ( ie a bullet to the head or equivalent), then it's safe to say that no units of B were ever produced. Quit the oposites the multitude of happy animals that were produced producing more units of G. The meat taste great producing even more units of G. The meat generates a productive economy generating even more units of G. Animals produce non chemical fertilizers producing more G, and grazing ( not over grazing) is good for grazed lands as part of the natural cycles of life, to this produces even more G.

The moral argument against eating meat comes from the B produced by mistreating animals. This is not an argument agains EATING meat. This is an argument against MISTREATING animals. EATING meat does not necessarily ( but definantly can) lead to mistreating animals.

If one wants to be moral which means you are a marginal G seeker and a marginal B avoider, it's easy to see EATING meat is not an issue. Buying meat comeing from mistreated animals however is. Buying meat that is produced humanely and organically however is perfectly moral.

The vegitarian claimin that eating all meat is immoral, must make a better argument that more G is produced by avoiding all meat. This means that the B from producing crops must be factored into the equation. This is not pointing out hypocrisy of e vegetarian ( though certainly true ;) ) the vegetarian is makeing a tally of Bs and Gs associated with ones choice in diet but conviently leaving out the Bs of one side of the equation and souly focused on the Bs of another.

If the vegetarian is going to logically claim moral high ground, he/she is going to have to explain why eating only plants creates more marginal G than humainly grown and treated meat does.

( I'm starting to sound like economics professors)

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Posted (edited)

Personally, I say don't live life. It sucks.

And I eat vegetables for health, and also that I don't like killing.

I'm not a vegetarian, but I plan to be one.

Edited by Mnemonix
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Not eating meat will not stop animals being killed inhumane way.

True, but we're not talking about torturing kittens for fun and profit or dog fighting for gambling purposes. This is a Straw man argument.

Buying from your local farmer or from organic free range or if you have the land buy live stock and kill your own this will help in reducing numbers of animals being killed inhumane way.

That's not always the case, there are many examples of animal abuse and neglect on small farms.

Animals brain is not as complex as our brain they do not know the concept of time nor do they have any understanding of how long they could live for.

Neither does an infant or someone who is severely mentally disabled. "“The question is not, "Can they reason?" nor, "Can they talk?" but "Can they suffer?”" ― Jeremy Bentham

Killing animals I believe is not wrong because that is how humans over the years have survived what is wrong now is the amount of food wastage people create.

This is an appeal to tradition, and it is a logical fallacy. Slavery was a long held tradition.

If you want to perform at your best then you have to supply your brain with the right fuels. Unlike back in the old times people did not have supplements so they needed to eat a good source of meat products.

That's not the case. One example is Carl Lewis, 9 time Olympic Gold medalist and vegan.

Being a vegetarian makes fuelling your body correctly a hard task. For example our body needs EPA and DHA which is found in fish, tuna, salmon if you are lacking it may result in learning difficulties and heart disease. Vegetarian would need to eat sufficient quantities of flaxseeds roughly three tablespoons of ground seeds.

see Carl Lewis.

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True, but we're not talking about torturing kittens for fun and profit or dog fighting for gambling purposes. This is a Straw man argument.

Not sure what you mean by straw man argument??

That's not always the case, there are many examples of animal abuse and neglect on small farms.

Yes I know this but you would try go to farmer that has a good reputation, even take the next step and go out to the farm then you can see the living conditions of the animals

Neither does an infant or someone who is severely mentally disabled. "“The question is not, "Can they reason?" nor, "Can they talk?" but "Can they suffer?”" ― Jeremy Bentham

Any animal can suffer in the wrong hands. I don't believe having lambs or cattle grazing on land is going to cause the animal to suffer.

This is an appeal to tradition, and it is a logical fallacy. Slavery was a long held tradition.

You can not compare slavery and eating meat because two are totally different

That's not the case. One example is Carl Lewis, 9 time Olympic Gold medalist and vegan.

I never said you can not live without meat I said it is harder to get the right amount of nutrients if one does not eat any sort of animal

see Carl Lewis.

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Posted (edited)

Farming animals for meat is "hunting" them, is it? Do you hunt for the meat you consume? If you do, fair play to you. If you just pop down to your local supermarket, you have no leg to stand on.

For the few comments that vegetarians should feel bad, also, because plants communicate with one another, are they actually aware that fruits and things don't actually kill (nor presumably harm) plants they come from? An apple falls from a tree..the tree doesn't die. Also, it's not news that plants are living things.

How ridiculous to compare that to the slaughter mankind inflicts upon wildlife day in, day out. The attempt to try and demonise vegetarians too comes from a deep rooted personal guilt and desperate justification for their own indulgences.

Just imo of course :tu:

Actually I do. Deer, wild big, and others with a bow actually. I also raise my own chickens for eggs and ocasionally meat, have an organic garden, and am working on producing most of my meat from a small giant flemish rabbit set up. I buy organic grass raised meat from a small local meat market. We are not 100% yet, but as soon as I can start trading the meat market large rabbits for other types of meat. I will be very very close.

No one is demonizing vegitarians. If Somone wants to tell me I am immoral fur the way that I eat, I deserve the right to defend that aligation and I will point out that simple vegetable production also causes much damage, so there is noone without blood on their hands.

Please believe me, I feel no guilt what so ever eating humainly treated meat. I do have practices of respect and honor given to animals I have hunted including prayers, but these are not guilt driven. As for a fat burger that I know was raised from a feed lot, yes I'll feel guilty if I do indulged which is fairly rare, but my guilt is lessened by the fact that I am actually doing something about and vocal against it. I have looked my food in the face many many times.

You also seem a little misinformed how apples are produced for production. They don't just fall of trees. Land is cleared, water is diverted, pesticides and herbacides dusted, fossil fules burned for transport, then insult to injury most of it is thrown out!!!!

You don't think all those piles of apples at the super market all get sold to you? It makes no sense for a vegetarian to buy one of those apples then frown at the guy buying a chicken. It makes even less sense for the vegetarian buying one of those apples and frowning at the guy buying grass fed organic and no sense at all criticizing the guy raising his own with a kind heart to how they live.

Edited by Seeker79
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Not sure what you mean by straw man argument??

You claimed that "Not eating meat will not stop animals being killed inhumane way."

A straw man argument is an argument that easily defeats a claim (as easy as knocking down a straw man/scarecrow), but does not pertain to the original proposition. The OP claimed that eating "organic" "happy" meat is morally better than eating factory farmed animals. You said that not eating meat will not stop animals from being cruelly killed. Right, but that wasn't the original argument.

Yes I know this but you would try go to farmer that has a good reputation, even take the next step and go out to the farm then you can see the living conditions of the animals

How about taking the next step and watch the farmer slaughter the animal? I don't see the humane part of shooting a bolt or bullet in an animals head, slitting it's throat or sticking it and bleeding it.

Any animal can suffer in the wrong hands. I don't believe having lambs or cattle grazing on land is going to cause the animal to suffer.

It is definitely going to suffer when it is slaughtered.

You can not compare slavery and eating meat because two are totally different

Both beings are treated as property, to be used as seen fit. Keep in mind we are not just talking about eating meat. If you find some roadkill or eat an animal that is already dead, I don't see a problem.

I never said you can not live without meat I said it is harder to get the right amount of nutrients if one does not eat any sort of animal

It may be more inconvenient, but it can be done. Thus, if you don't need to eat meat, as you just agreed to, it would be cruel to do so because it entails unnecessary pain and suffering.

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Actually I do. Deer, wild big, and others with a bow actually. I also raise my own chickens for eggs and ocasionally meat, have an organic garden, and am working on producing most of my meat from a small giant flemish rabbit set up. I buy organic grass raised meat from a small local meat market. We are not 100% yet, but as soon as I can start trading the meat market large rabbits for other types of meat. I will be very very close.

No one is demonizing vegitarians. If Somone wants to tell me I am immoral fur the way that I eat, I deserve the right to defend that aligation and I will point out that simple vegetable production also causes much damage, so there is noone without blood on their hands.

Please believe me, I feel no guilt what so ever eating humainly treated meat. I do have practices of respect and honor given to animals I have hunted including prayers, but these are not guilt driven. As for a fat burger that I know was raised from a feed lot, yes I'll feel guilty if I do indulged which is fairly rare, but my guilt is lessened by the fact that I am actually doing something about and vocal against it. I have looked my food in the face many many times.

You also seem a little misinformed how apples are produced for production. They don't just fall of trees. Land is cleared, water is diverted, pesticides and herbacides dusted, fossil fines burned for transport, then insult to injury most of it is thrown out!!!!

You don't think all those piles of apples at the super market all get sold to you? It makes no sense for a vegetarian to buy one of those apples then frown at the guy buying a chicken. It makes even less sense for the vegetarian buying one of those apples and frowning at the guy buying grass fed organic and no sense at all criticizing the guy raising his own with a kind heart to how they live.

I can respect (in some way) that you kill (most of) your own meat because I think most people wouldn't be able to do that (me included). I think there is a big difference between hunting your own meat and simply buying it down at the shops, where somebody else has done that. That old saying "out of sight, out of mind" springs to mind. It doesn't mean I think it's the right thing to do and I think I made that abundantly clear; in my ideal world the thousands of years of slaughter comes to an end. Of course, this will never happen because $$$$$ rules this world and so does the selfish/ignorant majority. It's easier to simply forget what these animals go through (on a mass scale) rather than have what is supposed to make us different from animals and that's to have a conscience.

I'm sorry but I just don't buy the argument that vegetable farming causes comparable suffering.

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The moral argument against eating meat is founded on the premis that we should cause no unnecessary pain and suffering (P&S) to other animals. Pain and suffering is a bad thing. Bad things should be avoided.

Agreed.

If we really want to get to the bottoms of this we should assign a unit of badness and goodnes. Ill call the unit a B & G.

Interesting thought experiment but highly impractical.

The first thing that becomes apparent is that if animals can be raised in good natural environments like humane organic farming, then killed instantly without ever knowing or feeling the instrument ( ie a bullet to the head or equivalent), then it's safe to say that no units of B were ever produced.

Sounds lovely but animals are routinely mutilated and suffer from all kinds of "humane" practices. There is no such thing as "humane" farming". So the rest of your argument is moot I'm afraid.

Quit the oposites the multitude of happy animals that were produced producing more units of G. The meat taste great producing even more units of G.

But there's other healthy and tasty food available.

The meat generates a productive economy generating even more units of G.

Farmers can generate income from growing crops.

Animals produce non chemical fertilizers producing more G, and grazing ( not over grazing) is good for grazed lands as part of the natural cycles of life, to this produces even more G.

Vegetation can grow without any manure.

The moral argument against eating meat comes from the B produced by mistreating animals. This is not an argument agains EATING meat. This is an argument against MISTREATING animals. EATING meat does not necessarily ( but definantly can) lead to mistreating animals.

That's the animal welfare argument. I disagree, I adhere to the animal rights argument. “To say that a being who is sentient has no interest in continuing to live is like saying that a being with eyes has no interest in continuing to see. Death—however “humane”—is a harm for humans and nonhumans alike.” -- Gary Francione

If one wants to be moral which means you are a marginal G seeker and a marginal B avoider, it's easy to see EATING meat is not an issue. Buying meat comeing from mistreated animals however is. Buying meat that is produced humanely and organically however is perfectly moral.

same argument, see above.

The vegitarian claimin that eating all meat is immoral, must make a better argument that more G is produced by avoiding all meat. This means that the B from producing crops must be factored into the equation. This is not pointing out hypocrisy of e vegetarian ( though certainly true ;) ) the vegetarian is makeing a tally of Bs and Gs associated with ones choice in diet but conviently leaving out the Bs of one side of the equation and souly focused on the Bs of another.

If the vegetarian is going to logically claim moral high ground, he/she is going to have to explain why eating only plants creates more marginal G than humainly grown and treated meat does.

What is missing from this argument is intention. There is a significant moral difference between killing an animal for the express purpose of consuming it and the baby mouse that is run over by a farm tractor.

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You claimed that "Not eating meat will not stop animals being killed inhumane way."

A straw man argument is an argument that easily defeats a claim (as easy as knocking down a straw man/scarecrow), but does not pertain to the original proposition. The OP claimed that eating "organic" "happy" meat is morally better than eating factory farmed animals. You said that not eating meat will not stop animals from being cruelly killed. Right, but that wasn't the original argument.

Sorry yes I agree that it is better to eat organic "happy" meat. Animals should be able to ran around in a paddock not be confirmed to a small pen

How about taking the next step and watch the farmer slaughter the animal? I don't see the humane part of shooting a bolt or bullet in an animals head, slitting it's throat or sticking it and bleeding it.

I personally prefer to have our own cow in the paddock and get the meat man to come shot the cow on your property then meat man bags it up for you. At least you know the meat you are eating has been well looked after, hasn't been put under stress and no chemicals have been added to the cows feed.

It is definitely going to suffer when it is slaughtered.

How is it going to suffer when it is slaughtered? Once the animal is no longer alive all that remains is the material body

Both beings are treated as property, to be used as seen fit. Keep in mind we are not just talking about eating meat. If you find some roadkill or eat an animal that is already dead, I don't see a problem.

No it is completely different. A human has a concept of what is happening, a human can grasp what the future holds, human has emotions. A cow in a paddock only "concerned" would be a) access to water B) gets fed at certain time

It may be more inconvenient, but it can be done. Thus, if you don't need to eat meat, as you just agreed to, it would be cruel to do so because it entails unnecessary pain and suffering.

I don't believe it entails pain and suffering. What is so painful about a cow in the paddock?

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Posted (edited)

Sorry yes I agree that it is better to eat organic "happy" meat. Animals should be able to ran around in a paddock not be confirmed to a small pen

While they may have more comfortable lives, the same fate awaits them all.

How is it going to suffer when it is slaughtered? Once the animal is no longer alive all that remains is the material body

Providing you sneak up on it unawares, with no other cattle watching, I suppose you have a point.

No it is completely different. A human has a concept of what is happening, a human can grasp what the future holds, human has emotions. A cow in a paddock only "concerned" would be a) access to water B) gets fed at certain time

Not so, cattle have emotions.

I don't believe it entails pain and suffering. What is so painful about a cow in the paddock?

castration, dehorning, branding, and nose rings for starters.

I've never used the satirical website the Onion for argumentation before, but I think this article shows the "happy" meat myth for what it is, an economic windfall for producers who are certified "Cage Free," "Free Range," "Humane Certified," "Grass Fed," "Organic," and "Local"

nb. the article talks about abattoirs that don't use bolts but rather incisions, which accounts for a large number of cattle, not just those ritually slaughtered for Halal or Kosher meat.

Edited by redhen

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While they may have more comfortable lives, the same fate awaits them all.

Same fate awaits us all Death is apart of life there is no escaping it. It seems you view death as a suffering like it is the worse fate to place upon an animal. Why is that? For some death would be a blessing an end to the animals suffering especially for the animals that are treated unkindly or are straving.

Providing you sneak up on it unawares, with no other cattle watching, I suppose you have a point.

Not so, cattle have emotions.

Please provide evidence of this

castration, dehorning, branding, and nose rings for starters.

Above is not a constant suffering the animal isn't in pain for the rest of its life. If you want to go down that road then humans shouldn't have pets because that is unnatural.

I've never used the satirical website the Onion for argumentation before, but I think this article shows the "happy" meat myth for what it is, an economic windfall for producers who are certified "Cage Free," "Free Range," "Humane Certified," "Grass Fed," "Organic," and "Local"

nb. the article talks about abattoirs that don't use bolts but rather incisions, which accounts for a large number of cattle, not just those ritually slaughtered for Halal or Kosher meat.

Like I said before research where you buy your meat from

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Same fate awaits us all Death is apart of life there is no escaping it.

True, but what gives us the moral right to kill animals for the sake of pleasure, amusement, and convenience?

Please provide evidence of this

Really, can you not see fear or sadness in a cow? Just take a look at a slaughterhouse and you will see fear. Take a look and listen to a cow ball all night long after its calf is taken away. We've known about emotions in animals for a long time now. Darwin wrote about this in 1872. For cows specifically, there are plenty of academic studies.

Above is not a constant suffering the animal isn't in pain for the rest of its life. If you want to go down that road then humans shouldn't have pets because that is unnatural.

So it's ok to mutilate animals because it's not a permanent state of pain? As for pets, indeed, I am in favour of abolishing the use of animals as pets. Animals don't need human rights or legal rights, they only need one right, the right not to be property.

Like I said before research where you buy your meat from

Again, I submit there is no such thing as humane slaughter, just like there is no such thing as humane rape or humane slavery.

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