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docyabut2

Minoan civilization was made in Europe

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y'know, I don't know what all the big fuss is about the minoans to be honest?

I mean, the aborigines reached australia by boat 60,000yrs ago, which is about 40,000yrs before anyone else got past the 'drowning in a hollow log' stage, and you don't hear them bragging do you?!

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DNA casts doubt on Egyptian origin for ancient Cretans.

http://www.nature.co...-europe-1.12990

I posted this story in this thread:

I hope that's okay. Would love to hear your opinion on this. I find this whole subject interesting to say the least.

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I'd believe it. I was a little more specific in my own thread titled Trojans were Basques - http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=222099&hl

But generally, it was the continuation of many Minoan things from Portugal that led me to this.

Not to mention the OLB telling us Minos was Fryan, but that's for that thread.

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I believe it was Sir Arthur Evans, "discoverer" of Minoa, who formulated the idea that the Minoans were descended from ancient Egyptians. This theory has not been regarded as realistic for many years now. Skeletal remains of Minoans might yield DNA that bears certain similarities to ancient Europeans, but it's my understanding that the brunt of evidence places the Minoans' origins in Anatolia.

The skeletons used in the analysis, according to the article, date at oldest to around 4,900 years BP. That is a hell of a long time ago, but it's more than likely Crete and other islands of the Aegean were settled by westward-migrating Anatolians long before that. More germane to the question would be an analysis of the DNA of skeletal remains dating much farther back into prehistory.

It's not my intent to belittle Evans. He was one of the greatest archaeologists of his time. He did tremendous work. Evans almost single-handedly brought the ancient Minoan civilization to the modern world. However, Evans went to his grave insisting the Linear B script could not be of a European language, even after Michael Ventris and the talented people who followed him definitively proved that the script represented an archaic version of the Greek language. I'm just curious why the article is partly based on such an outdated theory. Connections with ancient Europe are possible but, as far as I'm aware, unlikely.

The script of the Minoans was Linear A, and it remains undeciphered. Simply not enough source material has survived in the archaeological record for linguists to achieve success, and many have tried damn hard to do so. Unlike Linear B, however, Linear A appears to have no similarities with any known European language, and is unlikely to have been part of the Indo-European family. In all likelihood the Minoans spoke some dialect of the parent language originally brought from Anatolia in prehistory, and I don't believe Indo-European languages yet existed in Anatolia that far back in time. The language spoken by the Minoans remains one of history's great unsolved mysteries—we don't even know what the Minoans called themselves.

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Not to mention the OLB telling us Minos was Fryan, but that's for that thread.

OLB tells that everyone was Frisian/Fryan. Doesnt it??

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OLB tells that everyone was Frisian/Fryan. Doesnt it??

I'm sure somewhere in history there might have been somebody insiginificant enough not to be Frisian according to the OLB. You know, Toothless Jim, the idiot boy who picked up scraps for Atilla or Dancing Frigg, the fourth-worst prostitute following Julius Caesar's army. There's a slim chance /they/ weren't Frisians.

--Jaylemurph

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last I looked Crete was still in Europe, so why is this news?

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last I looked Crete was still in Europe, so why is this news?

Because some linguists/historians thought these Cretans came from Libya or Egypt.

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Im little surprise on conclusions made by article. Not saying its not true since I already said many times that fall of Hittites cause fall of Minoans. Suggesting that they were tight connected with Hittites. So my conclusions was that they came from Anatolia. (Mostly, see rest of the post.)

But...how did they know that Minoans originate from Europe. Im mean we dont know how many population live on those Islands.

Also last time I checked Minoans were MULTI ETHNIC society. I think that tells all about this article.

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A bit more about a relation between ancient Crete and ancient Anatolia:

DNA sheds light on Minoans

Crete’s fabled Minoan civilization was built by people from Anatolia, according to a new study by Greek and foreign scientists that disputes an earlier theory that said the Minoans’ forefathers had come from Africa.

The new study – a collaboration by experts in Greece, the USA, Canada, Russia and Turkey – drew its conclusions from the DNA analysis of 193 men from Crete and another 171 from former neolithic colonies in central and northern Greece.

The results show that the country’s neolithic population came to Greece by sea from Anatolia – modern-day Iran, Iraq and Syria – and not from Africa as maintained by US scholar Martin Bernal.

The DNA analysis indicates that the arrival of neolithic man in Greece from Anatolia coincided with the social and cultural upsurge that led to the birth of the Minoan civilization, Constantinos Triantafyllidis of Thessaloniki’s Aristotle University told Kathimerini.

“Until now we only had the archaeological evidence – now we have genetic data too and we can date the DNA,” he said.

Archeological dates for the colonisation of Crete are about 7,000 BC.

In more detail...

(...)

They identified J2a parent haplogroup J2a-M410 (Crete: 25.9%) with the first ancient residents of Crete during the Neolithic (8500 BCE – 4300 BCE) suggesting Crete was founded by a Neolithic population expansion from ancient Turkey/Anatolia. Specifically, the researchers connected the source population of ancient Crete to well known Neolithic sites of ancient Anatolia: Asıklı Höyük, Çatalhöyük, Hacılar, Mersin/Yumuktepe, and Tarsus. Haplogroup J2b-M12 (Crete: 3.1%; Greece: 5.9%) was associated with Neolithic Greece. Haplogroups J2a1h-M319 (8.8%) and J2a1b1-M92 (2.6%) were associated with the Minoan culture linked to a late Neolithic/ Early Bronze Age migration to Crete ca. 3100 BCE from North-Western/Western Anatolia and Syro-Palestine (ancient Canaan, Levant, and pre-Akkadian Anatolia); Aegean prehistorians link the date 3100 BCE to the origins of the Minoan culture on Crete.

http://mathildasanth...ns-dna-and-all/

http://onlinelibrary....20857/abstract

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Posted (edited)

Im little surprise on conclusions made by article. Not saying its not true since I already said many times that fall of Hittites cause fall of Minoans. Suggesting that they were tight connected with Hittites. So my conclusions was that they came from Anatolia. (Mostly, see rest of the post.)

But...how did they know that Minoans originate from Europe. Im mean we dont know how many population live on those Islands.

Also last time I checked Minoans were MULTI ETHNIC society. I think that tells all about this article.

The Minoans originated from Anatolia, which is not Europe ( - only in the European Song Contest, lol - ).

From my former post:

The results show that the country’s neolithic population came to Greece by sea from Anatolia – modern-day Iran, Iraq and Syria – and not from Africa as maintained by US scholar Martin Bernal.

Hittiterulemap-Pala.jpg

selsjukafbfa035.gif

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

Yes Abramelin I agree, but people from Anatolia ,according to Anatolia hypothesis of Indo Europeans, populated Europe before emerging of Minoans.

Europeans are Anatolians. :wacko:

@all

Evans dug Crete with damiging speed. Who knows how many things we have lost. When he dug Crete was under Ottomans. Not crucial info but small interesting info I like.

I always liked information in schooldays when in books is written "its good to know". No one will ask you that but somehow its good to understand it.

edit: Minoans were multi etnhic. Meaning some could carried one genes others different origin then first one. Isnt?

Edited by the L

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Posted (edited)

Yes Abramelin I agree, but people from Anatolia ,according to Anatolia hypothesis of Indo Europeans, populated Europe before emerging of Minoans.

Europeans are Anatolians. :wacko:

@all

Evans dug Crete with damiging speed. Who knows how many things we have lost. When he dug Crete was under Ottomans. Not crucial info but small interesting info I like.

I always liked information in schooldays when in books is written "its good to know". No one will ask you that but somehow its good to understand it.

Many Europeans may have descended from Anatolians, but that does not make them Anatolians. There were also the Scythians from the Russian steppes.

And don't forget about the ancestors of the Basques (= NOT the Basques themselves), maybe related to the ancient Berbers.

So you have 3 possible ancestors of the Europeans: Anatolians, ancient Berbers (North Africans), and Scythians.

But like 11,000 years ago there was a land where another branch of the ancestors of the Europeans thrived, and that was Doggerland (Maglemosian culture).

That was long before any Anatolians showed up in Europe.

That land was flushed by a giant flood 6150 BCE, and whoever was able to survive, fled to the surrounding countries.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Abramelin, Im fan of Marija Gimbutas. So I prefer Russian steppe. And I completly forgot about Basques. You are right.

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Posted (edited)

Abramelin, Im fan of Marija Gimbutas. So I prefer Russian steppe. And I completly forgot about Basques. You are right.

The Anatolians were just part of our ancestry. Maybe they introduced agriculture, part of our languages,but they were not the only ones. So did the Doggerlanders, the Scythians, and so did the ancestors of the Basques.

.

Edited by Abramelin
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Posted (edited)

Abramelin, I know this is offtopic but what do you think where surviving Doggerlanders settled?

Perhaps on Crete? :innocent:

Edited by the L

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Im little surprise on conclusions made by article. Not saying its not true since I already said many times that fall of Hittites cause fall of Minoans. Suggesting that they were tight connected with Hittites. So my conclusions was that they came from Anatolia. (Mostly, see rest of the post.)

But...how did they know that Minoans originate from Europe. Im mean we dont know how many population live on those Islands.

Also last time I checked Minoans were MULTI ETHNIC society. I think that tells all about this article.

I think your timescale is off. The Minoans petered out long before the Hittites. Minoan civilization was probably mostly gone by the end of the sixteenth century BCE or early in the fifteenth, to be supplanted by the Mycenaeans in the Aegean. The Hittites rose to prominence later and disappeared from the stage in the Late Bronze Age, by around the end of the twelfth century BCE.

The Egyptian connection is no longer considered valid. As I explained in my earlier post, this idea was seeded by Evans, and there was really no evidence for it from the start. The weight of evidence tells us the earliest Minoans (meaning in prehistoric times) probably migrated into the Aegean from Anatolia. These were essentially not Europeans (Western Asian would be a more precise designation).

I'm aware of the new theory that Indo-European originated from Anatolia. It seems to be the theory de jour. Just the same, it is not widely accepted.

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Abramelin, I know this is offtopic but what do you think where surviving Doggerlanders settled?

Perhaps on Crete? :innocent:

Or Atlantis?

Oh, crap, I shouldn't have said that. :w00t:

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I would put it slightly differently from the OP. Minoan civilization originated on Crete from a population that can be traced back to Asia Minor, not that the civilization originated in Asia Minor. There are heavy north African influences, apparently built up on a native, Crete-based foundation culture.

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Posted (edited)

OLB tells that everyone was Frisian/Fryan. Doesnt it??

No not at all. There is also many Findas folk and Lydas people too. But specifically it does mention Minos/Minno as being born Fryan. J's answer is ridiculously off what the book states too. There was many non-Fryans.

I'm not here to talk too much OLB but I will link the appropriate part, so for anyone not familiar with it - because it really makes a lot of sense that he did imo. This is not the Cretans, this is one man, Minno the law-maker - so famed for his fair and just laws he holds a place of judge in mythology.

USEFUL EXTRACTS FROM THE WRITINGS LEFT BY MINNO.

Minno was an ancient sea-king. He was a seer and a philosopher, and he gave laws to the Cretans. He was born at Lindaoord, and after all his wanderings he had the happiness to die at Lindahem.

If our neighbours have a piece of land or water which it would be advantageous for us to possess, it is proper that we should offer to buy it. If they refuse to sell it, we must let them keep it. This is Frya’s Tex, and it would be unjust to act contrary to it.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/

So, the Cretans/Minoans could be a culture from wherever, Europe, Anatolia but Minos would be from Europe according to the OLB.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Kmt,

Sanotrini or Thera eruption dating from 1623-1603 years BC. But it wasnt destroyed Minoans. They civilization flourished from 2700 BC and continued after 1500. Minoans were bronze age civilization, small comparing to existing in that time such as Egypt,Mesoptamia and Hittites. They were like third world compared to those and depended on trade. Similar like Venetian republic or Dutch republic. Thera only destroyed Akrotiri. Bronze age civilization on Crete was possibly destroyed when Hittites declined. Maybe after battle of Kadesh 1274 bc Hittites were weaken so when strong Assyrians came and defeated them at battle in north Mesopotamia when Hittites were under Tudhaliya IV, son of Hatussili. 1237 to 1209 was accepted decline of Hittites. After him only four rulers ruled Hittites. But we dont realy know when Hittites start to collapse. Neihter final year of Minoans.

There are signs of Minoans to 1250 as I remember. 24 years after battle of Kadesh.

Fall of Minoans doesnt fit any criteria of collapsing society except collapse due fall of trading partner.

Neither war or ecocide cause their fall.

Again I will point out that Minoans were multi ethnic civilization. They traded with Egypt and with Hittites. Gods know from where topless priestes with snakes came from, or bull skipping sport. From Crete to Africa is nothing. So did part of them came from Lybia? Who knows what Linear A is hiding from us? From where it cames those cryptogram script with 80 signs? You dont need to read books to conclude their multi ethnic society. Just google Minoans and look pictures. Meaning that they were different type gene carriers.

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I'm aware of the new theory that Indo-European originated from Anatolia. It seems to be the theory de jour. Just the same, it is not widely accepted.

Kurgan hypothesis is most likely.

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Posted (edited)

I would put it slightly differently from the OP. Minoan civilization originated on Crete from a population that can be traced back to Asia Minor, not that the civilization originated in Asia Minor. There are heavy north African influences, apparently built up on a native, Crete-based foundation culture.

Yes, Anatolia origin is portrayed as being European in the actual article, like genetics isn't confusing enough.

You put it well, the civilization originated in Crete and may have even come in from anywhere, maybe Greece, Thessaly specifically imo. I also think something from Libya has come in, no doubt.

This says the same thing as the article anyway.

The oldest evidence of inhabitants on Crete are preceramic Neolithic farming community remains that date to approximately 7000 BCE.[15] A comparative study of DNA haplogroups of modern Cretan men showed that a male founder group, from Anatolia or the Levant, is shared with the Greeks.[16] The neolithic population dwelt in open villages. Fishermen's huts were built on the shores, while the fertile Mesara Plain was used for agriculture

http://en.wikipedia....an_civilization

Minoans were traders and had ships, could sail very well and travelled most likely to Africa, based on the Akrotiri frescoe, they were J2 line haplogroup, same as Phoenicians.

It makes logical sense to me at least, that they are also an early Phoenician.

Edited by The Puzzler
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