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AlasBabylon

Assad: Israelis Helping Terrorists

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Why should Palestinians give up their rights, their ancestral lands and homes to the Zionists? If I am not mistaken the Palestinians were the indigenous peoples not the Zionists.

Do you recognize any rights of the Palestinians? The Balfour Declaration promised a homeland not a sovereign state to the Jews afterall. And the indigenous Palestinians were unaware of the Balfour Declaration, this was done behind their back. They were not represented or had representatives present. They were not consulted nor asked for approval.

And they did not agree to the UN partition plan because it gave the immigrant Jewish minority most of the land of Palestine and not only that (I am not sure if you are aware) it also gave the Jews the most fertile and agriculturely rich lands of Palestine.

On both accounts, the Palestinians were given a RAW deal. They were sold out.

The state of Israel, in case you hadn't noticed, is sort of a fait accompli..these 65 years now? I will ask yet again... what is your solution? Save me the ridiculous tripe about right of return, reparations and such. The only solution even vaguely attainable might be land swaps and security GUARANTEES made by outside forces. Israel is never going to allow right of return. As to the unfairness of it all, BJ, life is just like that, or hadn't you noticed? The Palis caught the short end of the stick - that I admit. But the stick could have been fashioned into a garden that both peoples shared had the Palis been willing to try to accommodate even a little. They have been nursing a bitter hatred for 65 years, fought several wars and tried bloody resistance ad infinitum and they STILL have not removed the state of Israel. If they ever do then I will gladly admit being mistaken about this incarnation of Israel being the ingathering foretold. Until they are displaced in another diaspora though, I will continue to remain faithful that THIS is that ingathering.

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Posted (edited)

The state of Israel, in case you hadn't noticed, is sort of a fait accompli..these 65 years now? I will ask yet again... what is your solution? Save me the ridiculous tripe about right of return, reparations and such. The only solution even vaguely attainable might be land swaps and security GUARANTEES made by outside forces. Israel is never going to allow right of return. As to the unfairness of it all, BJ, life is just like that, or hadn't you noticed? The Palis caught the short end of the stick - that I admit. But the stick could have been fashioned into a garden that both peoples shared had the Palis been willing to try to accommodate even a little. They have been nursing a bitter hatred for 65 years, fought several wars and tried bloody resistance ad infinitum and they STILL have not removed the state of Israel. If they ever do then I will gladly admit being mistaken about this incarnation of Israel being the ingathering foretold. Until they are displaced in another diaspora though, I will continue to remain faithful that THIS is that ingathering.

Whatevah!

Since the arrival of the first Zionist to Palestine, hundreds of massacres have been committed against unarmed Palestinian civilians in the name of “Israel”, making this entity synonym to death and destruction. One of the worst Zionist massacres committed against Palestinians is the Deir Yasin massacre. Defenceless Palestinian civilians were tortured before being massacres and their bodies mutilated. Women and children were raped, babies were butchered and pregnant women were bayoneted. Deir Yassin, a Palestinian village located at the outskirts of Jerusalem, had a population of around 750 on the eve of 09.04.1948. The village was surrounded by 6 Zionist colonies, the closest being Giv’at Sha’ul, and the Zionist colonists had blocked the main access road connecting Deir Yasin with Jerusalem, placing Deir Yasin under an almost total blockade. To protect the village from the attacks of the Zionists, the villagers of Deir Yasin formed a local guard whose weaponry consisted only of a few old rifles and very little ammunition. Because the village was surrounded by several Zionists colonists, was besieged and continuously threatened by them and because the villagers had little means to protect themselves, Deir Yasin agreed to a non-aggression pact with the Zionist colonists just one month before the massacre. Nevertheless, on 09.04.1948, and in a joint operation coded “Operation Unity” the 3 terrorist gangs Irgun, Lehi (Stern) and Haganah (later Zionist terrorist army) attacked the peaceful village with the aim of killing as many Palestinians as possible and to force the rest out of their homes and lands. At 4:30 on Friday morning, 09.04.1948, and while the villagers slept, the Zionist terror gangs surrounded Deir Yasin. Palestinians woke up to the sound of loud speakers ordering them to leave the village, and the unsuspecting residents went out of their homes to investigate the situation, and it was then that the massacre began. The Irgun attacked the village from the south east, Stern attacked it from the east while the Haganah bombarded the village with mortars. The Palestinian village guard tried to protect the residents and to stop the Zionist gangs, they fought heroically but with their meagre weaponry had little chance against three fully armed terror gangs. The Zionists opened fire at whoever tried escaping the village, and then moved into the village and started their “clean up”: they moved from one house to the other raping women, slaughtering children and killing whoever was inside with machine guns and knives. Whole families were lined up against the wall and executed. Pregnant women were bayoneted and the bodies of children were mutilated. Money and jewellery were snatched from the bodies of victims and other personal belongings were stolen before houses were burnt. Of the 144 houses of Deir Yasin, at least 15 were blown up over the heads of their inhabitants by the Zionist terror gangs. British interrogating officer, Deputy Inspector General Richard Catling, confirmed that:

“The recording of statements is hampered also by the hysterical state of the women who often break down many times whilst the statement is being recorded. There is, however, no doubt that many sexual atrocities were committed by the attacking Jews. Many young schoolgirls were raped and later slaughtered. Old women were also molested. One story is current concerning a case in which a young girl was literally torn in two. Many infants were also butchered and killed. I also saw one old woman … who had been severely beaten about the head with rifle butts. Women had bracelets torn from their arms and rings from their fingers and parts of some of the women’s ears were severed in order to remove earrings.”[1]

During the massacre; men, women, children and elderly were killed in cold blood and in a gruesome way and hundreds were wounded. The number of victims is disputed. Most sources put the number of martyrs at 254, including 25 pregnant women who were bayoneted and 52 children who were maimed in front of their mothers before being beheaded and the mothers slain.

“A chilling account of the massacre is given by a Red Cross doctor who arrived at the village on the second day and saw himself – the mopping up – as one of the terrorists put it to him. He says that the “mopping up” had been done with machine guns, then grenades and finished off with knives. Women’s bellies were cut open and babies were butchered in the hands of their helpless mothers. Around 250 people were murdered in cold blood.[2] Of those 250 people, 25 pregnant women were bayoneted in their abdomens while still alive. 52 children were maimed under the eyes of their own mothers, and they were slain and their heads cut off. Their mothers were in turn massacred and their bodies mutilated. About 60 other women and girls were also killed and their bodies mutilated[3].

The UN and the Red Cross, whose representatives were among the first to enter the village after the massacre, confirm that the number of the victims is in fact close to the 250 estimate. Other more recent sources name around 120 martyrs (see list of Martyrs), adding that the number of victims was exaggerated by the Zionist terrorists to spread fear amongst Palestinians everywhere. Ethnic cleansing was one of the declared aims of the massacre, and the atrocities committed at Deir Yasin were used to force residents of other Palestinian villages to flee for their lives out of fear of a similar destiny. After the massacre, Zionist terrorist gangs went from one Palestinian village to another, ordering Palestinians to leave “or meet the fate of Dayr Yassin”[4]. They would warn the residents in loud speakers: “The Jericho road is still open, fly from Jerusalem before you are killed, like those in Deir Yassin.”[5] During the expulsion of the inhabitants of Ramleh and Lydd in July 1948, Sari Nair from Ramleh recalled how they were kicked out of their home by a Zionist soldier who told them to leave “Otherwise you know what will happen. What happen at Deir Yassin will happen to you.”[6]

In addition to those butchered in their homes, 25 Palestinian men were rounded up by the Zionist terrorists, loaded onto a truck and paraded through Jerusalem in a sort of “victory tour” before being executed at a nearby quarry and buried in a mass grave. Also, eye witnesses reported that around 150 women and children were paraded naked through the Jewish neighbourhoods of Jerusalem. “The marauders gathered the women and girls who were still alive, and after removing all their clothes, put them in open cars, driving them naked through the streets of the Jewish section of Jerusalem, where they were subjected to the mockery and insult of the onlookers. Many took photographs of those women”[7] 55 children who survived the massacre were left at the Mendelbaum gate. 6 of these orphans went knocking on the door of Palestinian Jerusalemite Hind Al-Husseini seeking shelter. After hearing about the massacre, Al-Husseini went searching for the other children and after finding them decided to take care of them all. Her family gave her the mansion of her grandfather Dar Al-Husseini (the Husseini house) where she was born and which she renamed into Dar Al-Tifl Al-Arabi (Home of the Arab Child). Hind Al-Husseini dedicated her whole life to the orphans of Deir Yasin and other Palestinian children.

da4.jpg

Site of the mass grave of the victims of Deir Yasin massacre

When the news of the massacre spread, the International Red Cross Society requested permission for its representative Jaques Reynier to enter the village and investigate the matter. The Jewish Agency – which claimed it had nothing to do with the massacre and publicly “condemned” it – tried its best to prevent an investigation of the massacre and delayed granting the permission 24 hours to give the Zionist terrorists enough time to erase all traces of the massacred (something the Zionist government and its IOF have been doing since then after every massacre: public condemnation followed by a self-investigation that clears them of the massacre while preventing an independent investigation). But the evidence of the massacre was visible everywhere; it was so horrific that all efforts to erase it failed. The Zionists even tried to change the landmarks of the village so the Red Cross representative would not find the village’s cistern which they locked up. But Reynier found it and testified to finding the maimed bodies and parts of bodies of 150 women, children and elderly. Other bodies were found under the rabble of the destroyed homes, and many were scattered along the streets of the village. Scores of bodies were also found in the mass grave at the quarry. (below is the testimony given by Jaques Reynier)

As the massacre was taking place, both the British commander of the Mandate ground troops and the Jewish Agency knew about it but did nothing to stop it. But after the news of the massacre spread and the horrific details of what had happened were made public, both “denounced” the massacre and denied any previous knowledge. Also the Haganah, the armed forces of the Jewish Agency, “condemned” the massacre and denied any connection or knowledge of it. The leaders of the Haganah tried to hide their role in the massacre and claimed they only entered Deir Yasin after the massacre was over and denied the claims of Irgun and Lehi that they were part of the attack. These were enraged by the claims and published a letter proving that the Haganah commander was fully aware of the plan to attack Deir Yasin and even approved it. The leader of Irgun, Menachim Begin, “admitted on December 28, 1950, in a press interview in New York, that the Deir Yassin incident had been carried out in accordance with an agreement between the Irgun and the Jewish Agency and the Haganah”[8]. In fact, the attack on Deir Yasin was coded “Operation Unity” “to demonstrate the unity between the official Zionist leadership on the one hand and the two terrorist groups on the other”[9]. According to “Plan Dalet”, Deir Yasin was to be occupied together with other Palestinian villages. “Plan Dalet” was the master military plan of the Zionists and contained many sub-operations for the systematic expulsion of as many Palestinians as possible and grabbing as much Palestinian land as possible before the British Mandate was over. It gave Zionist military commanders and Zionist gangs a green light to massacre and to expel Palestinians and destroy their villages and towns. This Plan and its operations caused the ethnic cleansing of 213 Palestinian localities (40% of all Palestinian localities) and caused 413,794 Palestinians refugees (54% of the Nakba refugees) making it the main plan behind the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. It started on 01.04.1948 and ended on 15.5.1948 and consisted of 8 major military operations against Palestinian communities, the first being “Operation Nachshon”. This operation “was launched to carve out and hold a corridor from Tel Aviv on the coast to Jerusalem in the interior. This involved the occupation and destruction of Arab villages in this corridor. The massacre of Deir Yassin on April 10th was part of this operation. By April 12th, the Zionists had expelled about 15,000 Arab villagers from this corridor”[10]. Deir Yasin massacre was the first of at least another 17 massacres committed within the framework of “Plan Dalet”. Only two days after Deir Yassin, on 12.04.1948, Zionist terror units killed 12 residents of Khirbet Nasir Al-Din (Tiberias area). The next day, Irgun and Lehi Zionist terror gangs entered the village and killed 50 of its 90 residents, the remaining 40 managed to escape before the whole village was destroyed. “Plan Dalet” was carried out by the Zionist terrorists while Palestine was still under British Mandate, meaning under British protection, but the British army and government did nothing to stop the Zionist terror attacks and massacres against the Palestinians. Instead they supported the Zionist terrorists by providing them with weapons and military training. At the same time, they denied Palestinians the possession of weapons leaving most Palestinians defenceless.

During the massacre, Deir Yasin was ethnically cleansed, wiped off the Zionist map and later re-populated with Zionist colonists. While its indigenous population were made refugees who are till today scattered all over the world, Zionist colonists from Poland, Rumania and Slovakia were settled in the homes of the Palestinians. The irony is that some of the old houses of Deir Yasin became part of a Zionist mental hospital and these homes which are the site of the slaughter of their inhabitants later housed a number of Holocaust survivors suffering from mental trauma. The Zionist terror militias that committed the massacre were the Haganah, Irgun and Lehi. These terrorist gangs got most of their financing from the US, just like today, and in one case, the Lehi (Stern) terror gang contacted Albert Einstein and asked his help in raising money in the US. Einstein’s reply came one day after the massacre of Deir Yasin: he refused to help “calling the Stern Gang terrorists and misled criminals”[11]. The Haganah, as the armed unit of the Jewish Agency, was headed by the political leader of the Jewish Agency David Ben-Gurion who became the first prime minister of the Zionist entity. Irgun was headed by Menachim Begin who became the 6th prime minister of the Zionist entity. Lehi was headed by Yitzah Shamir who became the 7th prime minister of the Zionist entity. According to Menachim Begin: “The massacre was not only justified, but there would not have been a state of Israel without the victory at Deir Yassin.”[12] and after the massacre, he sent the attackers of Deir Yasin: “Accept congratulations on this splendid act of conquest. Tell the soldiers you have made history in Israel.” No one was ever punished for this and other massacres. This entity that had been headed by one war criminal after the other since its creation, and is still headed by war criminals, blatantly keeps claiming it seeks peace and is “only defending itself” when it kills unarmed civilians whether in Palestine, Lebanon or elsewhere. Deir Yasin was not an isolated incident. Hundreds of massacres followed and the Jenin massacre and the recent Gaza Genocide are only two examples of the blood-thirsty Zionist nature.

Choosing Deir Yasin as a target for this horrific massacre only shows the nature of the Zionist entity: Deir Yasin was known as a peaceful village and had prevented Palestinian fighters from using its land to fight the Zionist terrorists, in addition to the fact that it had signed a non-aggression treaty with the Zionists. One day before the massacre, the Palestinian leader Abdel-Qader Al-Husseini had been killed while resisting the Zionists in near-by Al-Qastal. He had waited in vain for support from Arab armies who had betrayed him and betrayed Palestine as they still do. Deir Yasin had refused to assist Al-Husseini and the Palestinian fighters. The village, surrounded by several Zionists colonies maybe saw in signing the non-aggression pact the only way to protect its inhabitants from the Zionist terror. Nevertheless, the Zionists chose Deir Yasin as the site for the massacre which was to be used as example for all other Palestinian villages and towns.

http://occupiedpales...e-april-9-1948/

33 KNOWN Massacres, and then!

Mannsurat al Khayt (18 Jan ‘48)

Qisarya (15 Feb ‘48)

Wadi ‘Ara (27 Feb ‘48)

Deir Yassin (9 April ‘48)

Khirbet, Nasir ad Din (12 April ‘48)

Hawsha (15 April ‘48)

Al Wa’ra al-Sawda (18 April ‘48)

Haifa (21 April ‘48)

Husayniyya (21 April ‘48)

Balad ash Sheikh (25 April ‘48)

Ayn az Zaytun (2 May ‘48)

Al Abbasiyya (4 May ‘48)

Bayt Daras (11 May ‘48)

Burayr (12 May ‘48)

Khubbayza (12 May ‘48)

Abu Shusha (14 May ‘48)

THE ARAB-ISRAELI WAR MAY 15, 1948

Al Kabri (21 May ‘48)

Al Tantoura (21 May ‘48)

Qazaza (9 July ‘48)

Lydda (10 July ‘48)

Al Tira (16 July ‘48)

Ijzim (24 July ‘48)

Beer Sheba (21 Oct ‘48)

Isdud (28 Oct ‘48)

Al Dawayima (29 Oct ‘48)

Eilaboun (29 Oct ‘48)

Jish (29 Oct ‘48)

Majd al Kurum (29 October ‘48)

Safsaf (29 Oct ‘48)

Sa’sa (30 Oct ‘48)

Saliha (30 Oct ‘48)

Arab al Samniyya (30 Oct ‘48)

Al Khisas (18 Dec ‘48),

Edited by B Jenkins
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The only solution even vaguely attainable might be land swaps and security GUARANTEES made by outside forces.

I'll have to counteroffer with 1947 borders and GUARANTEES made by international coalition forces.

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The state of Israel, in case you hadn't noticed, is sort of a fait accompli..these 65 years now? I will ask yet again... what is your solution? Save me the ridiculous tripe about right of return, reparations and such. The only solution even vaguely attainable might be land swaps and security GUARANTEES made by outside forces. Israel is never going to allow right of return. As to the unfairness of it all, BJ, life is just like that, or hadn't you noticed? The Palis caught the short end of the stick - that I admit. But the stick could have been fashioned into a garden that both peoples shared had the Palis been willing to try to accommodate even a little. They have been nursing a bitter hatred for 65 years, fought several wars and tried bloody resistance ad infinitum and they STILL have not removed the state of Israel. If they ever do then I will gladly admit being mistaken about this incarnation of Israel being the ingathering foretold. Until they are displaced in another diaspora though, I will continue to remain faithful that THIS is that ingathering.

The Israelis came from a tribal background from the North, most likely Turkey or Georgia or anywhere in that region

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The Israelis came from a tribal background from the North, most likely Turkey or Georgia or anywhere in that region

Well we all came from "somewhere" I guess. What is your point?

My point is that the state of Israel is there and isn't going anywhere so the only answers are war or negotiation or status quo.

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Well we all came from "somewhere" I guess. What is your point?

My point is that the state of Israel is there and isn't going anywhere so the only answers are war or negotiation or status quo.

Israel is going all over land that isn't the state of Israel. The answer is to extract them from their occupation zones and replace their occupation regime with a sane government that recognizes the civil liberties of all people. Because you forget every discussion and reply with the same repetition as if this hasn't all been discussed already, I will once again have to repeat how that should happen, with diplomatic force and democracy.

B Jenkins wants 1967 borders but I don't see how a state can function separated by a hostile neighbor. What precedence of success in that kind of arrangement can we refer to? If it's void of international peacekeepers, that idea would be an immediate mess and fail quickly resulting in Israel steamrolling the new state with military force, veritably overnight. 1947 borders are appropriate to the bureaucratic process we need to recognize the two states Israel and Palestine in the first place, or else the land swaps must be substantial, giving the northern half to one state and the southern half to the other. Micro-issues like right of return are superfluous and serve only to roadblock two-state progress; when Palestine has statehood Israel doesn't have a voice in who does or doesn't return.

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Be nice if they could have a big referendum asking people what country they want to belong to and then use that as a starting point of where to draw the borders. That way you don't have tens of thousands of people being forced to live in a country they don't wish to and avoid the riots, revolts, and mass mirgations that would come with that. Heck given the mess over there maybe this needs to be done for the whole region.

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Im trying to figure out whats in it for Israel to be supporting these terrorist. I dont see any benefit at all. I dont believe Assad really ever intends to go to war with Israel. Sure he talks alot of crap, but when push comes to shove he never does anything. Israel bombed what they said was a nuclear site in Syria. If there was ever a time to fight, it was then. On the other hand, if western backed alCIAda takes over there will almost certainly be a conflict not to far down the road. Maybe its Israels intent to go to war with Syria after the terrorists take over, and before they can become to organized. The terrorists also wont have the support of Iran.

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Posted (edited)

Israel is going all over land that isn't the state of Israel. The answer is to extract them from their occupation zones and replace their occupation regime with a sane government that recognizes the civil liberties of all people. Because you forget every discussion and reply with the same repetition as if this hasn't all been discussed already, I will once again have to repeat how that should happen, with diplomatic force and democracy.

B Jenkins wants 1967 borders but I don't see how a state can function separated by a hostile neighbor. What precedence of success in that kind of arrangement can we refer to? If it's void of international peacekeepers, that idea would be an immediate mess and fail quickly resulting in Israel steamrolling the new state with military force, veritably overnight. 1947 borders are appropriate to the bureaucratic process we need to recognize the two states Israel and Palestine in the first place, or else the land swaps must be substantial, giving the northern half to one state and the southern half to the other. Micro-issues like right of return are superfluous and serve only to roadblock two-state progress; when Palestine has statehood Israel doesn't have a voice in who does or doesn't return.

Im not saying this so that you will believe me, cause I know you wont. But because maybe you will believe it after you see it. There will be a day when Israel and Palistine are at complete peace. The land will be divided in a way both agree, in the name of peace and safety. On the same day sudden and complet destruction will come on Palistine, Syria, and Leb.

Edited by preacherman76
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Al-Qa'ida's high command staked its interest in the outcome of Syria's civil war as its leader, Ayman al-Zawahiri, called on jihadist fighters to build an anti-Western state after toppling President Bashar al-Assad.

In remarks that underline how al-Qa'ida now sees the Syrian conflict as its best political chance in years, Zawahiri warned rebel fighters not to do the West's work by replacing Mr Assad with a moderate, democratic government.

Instead, he called for the creation of an Islamic caliphate that would then wage all-out war with neighbouring Israel.

'BLOOD'

"America, its agents and allies want you to shed your blood and the blood of your children and women to bring down the criminal Ba'athist regime, and then set up a government loyal to them and to safeguard Israel's security," he said yesterday.

Zawahiri's comments, which raise the prospect of a three-sided war between secular moderates, Sunni extremists loyal to al-Qa'ida, and the Shia regime of Mr Assad, were made in an audio broadcast timed to mark the 65th anniversary of Israel's creation.

*snip*

Al-Qa'ida leader calls on Syrian rebels to build anti-West state

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Yet the West continues to support these jihadists against Assad and his allies.

Apparently these Sunni extremists never heard the phrase 'Don't bite the hand that feeds you'.

Or perhaps its just another part of the overall game plan leading to world wide war.

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Yet the West continues to support these jihadists against Assad and his allies.

Apparently these Sunni extremists never heard the phrase 'Don't bite the hand that feeds you'.

Or perhaps its just another part of the overall game plan leading to world wide war.

I tend toward that last idea but I'm not sure there is an actual plan. Just an inexorable shambling lurch toward entropy.

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There is no actual plan for world wide war, just destabilization in Syria.

Blaming the Sunnis as "biting the hand that feeds them" is putting blame where it does not belong.

We knew fully well that creating a test tube vacuum of war in Syria would allow Al-Qaeda elements to slip in.

That we chose to support the rebels was in the name of destabilization and that Al-Qaeda has entered is a case of competing interests.

Clearly the main priority is not a war on terror here but removing Assad and any hope of a Russian-Iranian-Syrian pipeline deal that would compete with Turkey and Israel's already established one.

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Posted (edited)

Yet the West continues to support these jihadists against Assad and his allies.

Apparently these Sunni extremists never heard the phrase 'Don't bite the hand that feeds you'.

Or perhaps its just another part of the overall game plan leading to world wide war.

Of course this is all just pure "speculation" as we know, but there is some mystically ambiguous connection going on between the CIA and Al Queda and the "pact" has been ongoing since the early days of Bin Laden. If true, the why's and how's would probably explain what's happening in Syria and (speculating even further) the Middle East in general.

Edited by Black Red Devil

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I tend toward that last idea but I'm not sure there is an actual plan. Just an inexorable shambling lurch toward entropy.

Entropy? That doesn't seem to fit your religious creationist beliefs. ;)

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Israel is going all over land that isn't the state of Israel. The answer is to extract them from their occupation zones and replace their occupation regime with a sane government that recognizes the civil liberties of all people. Because you forget every discussion and reply with the same repetition as if this hasn't all been discussed already, I will once again have to repeat how that should happen, with diplomatic force and democracy.

B Jenkins wants 1967 borders but I don't see how a state can function separated by a hostile neighbor. What precedence of success in that kind of arrangement can we refer to? If it's void of international peacekeepers, that idea would be an immediate mess and fail quickly resulting in Israel steamrolling the new state with military force, veritably overnight. 1947 borders are appropriate to the bureaucratic process we need to recognize the two states Israel and Palestine in the first place, or else the land swaps must be substantial, giving the northern half to one state and the southern half to the other. Micro-issues like right of return are superfluous and serve only to roadblock two-state progress; when Palestine has statehood Israel doesn't have a voice in who does or doesn't return.

With the 1947 borders you would basically have Tel Aviv cutoff from Jerusalem. Difficult to see that happening IMO.

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With the 1947 borders you would basically have Tel Aviv cutoff from Jerusalem. Difficult to see that happening IMO.

Biggest problem with the '47 borders is the war that began in '48.. If the Arabs felt strongly enough in '48 to go to war rather than have a Jewish state there in their midst then how is going back to that same border going to help today? They have made absolutely no secret that ANY SIZE Israeli state in their midst is unacceptable....PERIOD.

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Not every Arab opposes a two-state solution.

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Posted (edited)

Biggest problem with the '47 borders is the war that began in '48.. If the Arabs felt strongly enough in '48 to go to war rather than have a Jewish state there in their midst then how is going back to that same border going to help today? They have made absolutely no secret that ANY SIZE Israeli state in their midst is unacceptable....PERIOD.

The Arab Higher Committee was the cause of the rejection of an Israeli State but 1) it had it's own critics amongst the Arab population and 2) was dissolved in 1948. Things have moved on since then. Currently the main reason many Arab States do not recognise Israel is because of the treatment of Palestinians and because the unfairness of the UN Partition Plan.

The first map was the Jewish ethnic composition at the time in 1947 (in blue) after a large influx of Jews (83,000 in 1920 to 600,000 in 1947) which was cause of most anti-jewish sentiment at the time. Similar to the anti-muslim sentiment you find in Europe these days. Large influxes of different ethnic/cultural groups create these Xenophobic feeling.

322px-Jewish_Land_Ownership_in_Mandatory_Palestine%2C_1947.svg.png

This was the UN partition decision. The Israeli's received 56% of the territory (in white) despite having only 33% of the total areas population. Was that fair?

322px-United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine_map.svg.png

Then again, looking at the progression from the first two maps, continuing on with the 1967 borders below

322px-Palestinian_Territories%2C_1948-67.svg.png

and now

322px-Palestinian_National_Authority_within_Israel%2C_2013.svg.png

you'd have to question Israel's real intent.

Edited by Black Red Devil
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I see people are still trying to justify the theft of Palestine...tut tut

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With the 1947 borders you would basically have Tel Aviv cutoff from Jerusalem. Difficult to see that happening IMO.

It's unlikely you'll get anything at all if you only ask for the minimum that you're willing to accept because you think it's more likely.

I'm not even sure what you mean by basically. The road between these two cities will be closed? What about the roads between Gaza and the West Bank? How open will those be? If your meaning is to say that Jerusalem is a big deal, yeah it's a very big deal. But technically under 1947 borders both states are cut off from Jerusalem in a fashion because it's a cosmopolitan city belonging to neither.

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Biggest problem with the '47 borders is the war that began in '48.. If the Arabs felt strongly enough in '48 to go to war rather than have a Jewish state there in their midst then how is going back to that same border going to help today? They have made absolutely no secret that ANY SIZE Israeli state in their midst is unacceptable....PERIOD.

Because nobody is beholden to what the Arabs thought in 1948 if we're going to be accepting this Partition Plan in the first place. The entire region rejected it. It was an act of war.

If the UN says it's okay for Northern Atheists to come down to Alabama to create an Atheist Homeland in Alabama even though the entire SE United States votes against it, what are you and the rest of the Southern Christians going to do about it? Surrender your civil rights?

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Because nobody is beholden to what the Arabs thought in 1948 if we're going to be accepting this Partition Plan in the first place. The entire region rejected it. It was an act of war.

If the UN says it's okay for Northern Atheists to come down to Alabama to create an Atheist Homeland in Alabama even though the entire SE United States votes against it, what are you and the rest of the Southern Christians going to do about it? Surrender your civil rights?

Of course not...and I have acknowledged that the Palestinians got the "short end" politically with the Mandate. However this is the reality and unless they accept it and try to move forward from the stand point of the existence of a state of Jewish character in their midst, there will never be a real chance for peace. Surely you can see this? To use your analogy, southern Christians would have to see the writing on the wall (so to speak) and compromise in some way that left them free to worship as they chose but also allowed the Atheists room to do the same. This is my only point.... that total intransigence keeps this thing alive decade after bloody decade and since Israel will never just disappear, compromise and part of the pie is much better than continued war forever. And compromise will come in time. Unfortunately it only gets worse in the wake of this compromise.
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It's unlikely you'll get anything at all if you only ask for the minimum that you're willing to accept because you think it's more likely.

I'm not even sure what you mean by basically. The road between these two cities will be closed? What about the roads between Gaza and the West Bank? How open will those be? If your meaning is to say that Jerusalem is a big deal, yeah it's a very big deal. But technically under 1947 borders both states are cut off from Jerusalem in a fashion because it's a cosmopolitan city belonging to neither.

It's just my opinion mate. Nobody has the perfect answer otherwise there would have been a solution decades ago. Former Prime Minister Barak suggested years ago a large 47km elevated floating bridge be built between the west Bank and Gaza. I found the article here. It was rejected at the time due to costs.

The point is anybody of relevance, who comes forward with a peace plan (including some of the Arab States) only suggest a plan, a two state solution, that includes the 1967 borders.

Until religion is a factor in this world I don't think anyone in their wildest dreams believes Israel will renounce Jerusalem or make it a free state of some kind. Christian dominated nations in the world also appear to be OK with their holy sites being under Jewish control. Unfortunately Islamic extremists have brought this onto themselves and onto moderate Muslims, when they've shown their willingness to desecrate other religious holy symbols/sites/monuments in the name of Islam. I'm not a religious person but I would never interfere with another persons beliefs as long as it doesn't affect me or get forced onto me.

IMO the biggest victory the Palestinians can ever hope to achieve is a chunk of East Jerusalem as their capital.

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Biggest problem with the '47 borders is the war that began in '48.. If the Arabs felt strongly enough in '48 to go to war rather than have a Jewish state there in their midst then how is going back to that same border going to help today? They have made absolutely no secret that ANY SIZE Israeli state in their midst is unacceptable....PERIOD.

You are so thoroughly indoctrinated with the popular mythological history of the State of Israel.

When the Partition Plan was drawn up, the Arabs constituted two-thirds of the population. There were 1,350,000 Arabs and 650,000 Jews.

The partition solution provided the Jews who occupied less than 6% of the lands in the mandate, should receive 56% of the mandated territory. The Arabs, who occupied 94% of the land, should be alotted only 44%.

The Arabs naturally unanimously rejected what they regarded as a grostesquely skewed misallocation.

The Arabs challenged the power of the United Nations to dispose of Arab-inhabited lands without the CONSENT of the population and further contended that a two-thirds majority SHOULD decide the fate of the entire country. In addition, the Arabs rejected as unfair a scheme of distribution that involved EJECTING the Palestinians from lands long held by their families for the benefit of a numerically smaller population of Jews, most of whose members were NEWCOMERS.

In other words, what the Arabs rejected was the whole procedure of a callous manifestation of colonialist manuevering by the great powers. By manipulating the United Nations, the powers were seeking to divide the country under an impracticable formula HIGHLY PREJUDICIAL to the Palestinians. The Arabs, recognized as their right, rejected the plan and maintained that the United Nations had NO LEGAL right to recommend partition when the MAJORITY of the inhabitants of Palestine OPPOSED it.

Nonetheless, by rejecting the Partition Plan, the Palestinians did not reject their claims to an independent nation. What they rejected was a Jewish state established on Palestinian land and not to the Jews' rights as a people.

Little known fact known to the western population, is that the Zionists began to prepare for war immediately after the announcement of the Partition Plan. Jewish forces took to the field almost immediately, quickly securing areas designated Jewish and then expanding into parts of Palestine reserved for the Palestinians.

November 30 1947, a single day after the passage of Partition Plan, ALL Jews age 17 to 25 were ORDERED to register for military service. On December 5th, David Ben-Gurion ordered "immediate action". By mid-December 1947, the Zionists began organizing military action against the Arabs spelled out under a strategy called Plan Gimmel. The first major Jewish assault occured on December 18 1947, when a Palmach shock force conducted a nighttime raid on the Palestinian village of Khissas, in northern Galilee, killing 5 adults and 5 children and wounding 5 others.

On December 19, 1947, David Ben-Gurion ordered that the Jewish forces strike aggressively "In each attack, a decisive blow should be struck, resulting in the destruction of homes and the expulsion of the population."

Christopher Sykes (Crossroads To Israel), a contemporary British observer, notes that the Khissass attack represented a new phase in the struggle, that its character changing from "indiscriminate raiding and counter-raiding to more calculated attack and atrocity."

By early March 1948, the Jews began pursuing Plan Dalet, aimed at capturing areas in Galilee and between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv that had been assigned by the United Nations Partition Plan to the Palestinian state.

When the war was declared on May 15, 1948, the Jordanian war aims were not against the Jewish state or partition but were against Israel's efforts to annex parts of Palestine not granted to the Jews in the UN Partition Plan.

"All of the battles with Jordan's Arab Legion were fought in areas outside the territory of the Jewish State ... INCLUDING those fought in Jerusalem." - Abraham Sela, Israeli Historian

The Zionists of Palestine had consistantly had better and more weapons than the Palestinians and other Arabs in the neighboring states. Both Jews and Arabs were officially embargoed from buying weapons in the United States and most western countries, the Zionists clandestinely received major supplies of arms from Czechoslovakia beginning in early 1948. One contracted supply provided the Zionists with 24,500 rifles, 5,000 light machine guns, 200 medium machine guns, 54 million rounds of ammunition, and 25 Messerschmitt warplanes.

By May 15 1948, the Israelis were capable of fielding 800 armored vehicles, 787 mortars, and 4 field guns against the Arab TOTAL fielding 113 armored vehicles, 40 mortars, and 102 field guns.

On May 18 1948, the US Army Intelligence estimated the forces as 40,000 Jewish troops and 50,000 Jewish militia against 20,000 Arab troops and 13,000 Palestinian guerrillas.

At the height of the 1948 War's escalation it was 100,000 Jewish troops against 55,000-56,000 Arab TOTAL troops. Additionally, approximately, 20,000-25,000 of the Jewish troops were battle-experienced European WWII veterans.

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