The missing Sedimentary Meteorites

[aquatus1]

All your answers will be at the site. I recomend everyone to read it.

Gandalf will be off on an another adventure and not available for a while.

And now the true purpose of this thread is revealed, and to little surprise, we find that it is pretty much for the purpose of increasing the hits on his Facebook page.

[Oniomancer]

Dr Frances Westall, Lead Scientist in the Stone-6 Project (Director of Research Centre de Biophysique Moléculaire Orléans France, former senior researcher at the NASA Johnson Space Center and the Lunar and Planetary Institute Houston USA)

“The STONE-6 experiment shows that SEDIMENTARY martian meteorites could reach Earth. The fact that we haven’t found any to date could mean that we need to CHANGE the way we hunt for meteorites. Most meteorites have been found in Antarctica, where their black fusion crust shows up clearly against the white snow.

In this experiment we found that the SEDIMENTARY rocks developed a white crust or none at all. That means that we need to expand our search to white or light-coloured rocks.”

http://www.europlane...-traces-of-life

André Brack, lead scientist of the Centre de Biophysique Moleculaire in Orleans France, former president of the International Society for the Study of the Origin of Life (1996-1999) and is president of the European Exo/Astrobiology Network since 2001 and part of ESA Stone-6 project.

"The dolomite did not acquire a fusion crust. Instead, the surface exposed to the heat of re-entry burned off. This could point to one reason why we have not yet found a SEDIMENTARY martian meteorite – it lacks that tell-tale black fusion crust that meteorite hunters look for."

“It will be difficult to recognize them,” says Brack. “There is no obvious sign or feature that they are meteorites."

http://www.astrobio....=detail&id=2567

We should at least have plenty of those from earth itself. 60% of all material ejected out will fall down again eventually (after millions of years). 50-70%+- of the ejectia is of sedimentary type. From Mars and Venus about 20 % of the ejectia will end up on earth. It is proven that they have enough speed, enough toughness to handle the journey (millions of years) and the descent. If we have 50 non sedimentary martian ones, we should have at least 150+ earth origin ones? We have not a single one, of any type, not even a basaltic one.

Again, that's Mars. This is Earth. Mars has just over a 3rd Earth's gravity, therefore it has just over a third Earth's escape velocity. Higher escape velocity = less ejecta reaching orbit and those that do reaching lower orbits and therefore falling to Earth sooner. This brings us back to tektites. here we have small scale material being deposited together all at once in large strewn fields, which is inconsistent with meteorite strewn fields as the individual objects were already formed discretely in flight, which is the next point. The energy of an impact is such that the majority of the material is going to be melted or pulverized on contact. All of the tektites represent material liquified in this manner. These have been analyzed and found to be chemically consistent with altered terrestrial sedimentary rock. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tektite The same factors that govern rocket launches ought to effect rock ejection too. Nearness to the equator, direction relative to spin, blast angle, impact strength, etc.

Does this mean some rock couldn't have been ejected into space? No. Some rocks from impact sites have been found intact hundreds of miles from their source. This just doesn't amount to the scores you seem to think must have fallen or been left poised waiting to fall. Ejected material also tends to take an indirect path from one planet to another due to orbital mechanics.

Now let's consider what may have actually fallen. About 71 % percent of the earth is covered with water for starters. Another 30 percent is in the former glacier zone so they would've been either caught up as glacial till or mixed in with it. Anywhere else they fall, they're vulnerable to transport and weathering over time. Any crust therefore is liable to be worn away. The very mechanism that allows them to reach space unaltered is actually going to protect them from the worst effects of all but reentry heat. From a low trajectory, most of their fall would be at terminal velocity, with little heating.

If they have no fusion crust, how you distinguish them from the local rock on sight if they happen to be of a similar type? They mention a white crust sometimes. A lot of rocks are white. it's a natural part of weathering for some minerals, so the same question applies.

[whitegandalf]

So according too you the Moon doesent exist?

To escape earths gravity it is needed a speed of between 4-5 km pr second

Most ejectia on Earth has the speed of 10-30km per second.

you are wrong.

See link above

Gandalf is never far away. Gandalf goes whereever he is needed.

Good by for now, my friends.

PS! Thanks for the overwelming support. Over 800 members so far.

Join the hunt for the missing sedimentary meteorites!

[Oniomancer]

So according too you the Moon doesent exist?

To escape earths gravity it is needed a speed of between 4-5 km pr second

Most ejectia on Earth has the speed of 10-30km per second.

you are wrong.

See link above

Gandalf is never far away. Gandalf goes whereever he is needed.

Good by for now, my friends.

PS! Thanks for the overwelming support. Over 800 members so far.

Join the hunt for the missing sedimentary meteorites!

Do you think an ordinary sized asteroid impact could've created the moon? Do you think the moon was detached in one neat mass, in it's present spherical shape? Do you think the moon is sedimentary?

Once again, the Impact hypothesis is just that, an hypothesis, not fact, one out of several and there are problems which it can't explain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_impact_hypothesis

So stop treating it like it's a forgone conclusion. Either way, it doesn't support your assertion that Earth, with it's higher escape velocity should produce more ejecta than Mars with it's lower one.

I would also like to know where this forbidden test business comes from as well. And don't point to me to facebook. Cite me some direct case evidence.

[DingoLingo]

you know.. I thought this thread might have been a interesting read by the title..

how I was wrong..

[ronko]

i think i may have found one, a sedimentary meteorite that is,walking through a dense wood one year ago i tripped over a strange rock buried on the dense forest floor, it seems no one is interested ,it is the size of a fist,magnetic,has d density of 3.2 oxidized through sitting for some time, has a burn crust ,has flow lines, and the thing is it also contains a fossil inside as it has split open.anyone who can enlighten me on the object can e mail me on daviespice@live.fr where they can receive pictures on request.

[stereologist]

Yes

All other tests are crap tests as they cannot recognise most sedimentary meteorites

The site has many independent potensial sedimentary meteorites from all over the world, that are denied testing.

I dont want to speculate on the reasons why they have made this test forbidden from the general public for over 80 years now, and still refuse any acess..

All your answers will be at the site. I recomend everyone to read it.

Gandalf will be off on an another adventure and not available for a while.

https://www.facebook...ntaryMeteorites

Are you sure that facebook site is telling the truth? This claim of a "radioactive crystal" test sounds a bit loony to me. The name does not sound like a real test to me. Radiometric dating is a real technique. It employs analyzing crystals that are believed to be closed systems. Labs all over the world can do that testing. Why do they claim that this information is not available to the public? The site also contains a lot of irrelevant images such as images of the Eiffel Tower and a fake alien face. That suggests to me this is a site of dubious quality. A link to read more just brought me back tot he same page.

I think the site is full of baloney.

[stereologist]

Many good points and information:) Thank you

However i disagree slightly on some of them...

I agree that they would be extremely hard to find because they are so rare, and does not have the typical black melted crust, that most experts go after. Some have no crust at all, some have lost their unusual white, glassy++ crust too. I also think that most meteorite experts does not have updated and relevant knowledge (stone6 project) about this rare group of meteorites.

Why must these tests that can recognize possible sedimentary meteorites be off limit to the general public? What are they afraid of?

What about the moon, it managed to almost escape earth orbit, actually it did, its slowly moving away. Couldent there bee more large masses of sedimentary rock floating out in space and leaving debree behind, that earths orbit sometimes crosses, and some fall down?

Mercury was the first planet in our solar system with oceans of water and a working magnetic field and tectonic plates. This however did not last long. The scientist say it went on for about 500-600 million years. Some sedimentary rock there must exist, maybe not much.

http://www.meteorite...ted_MERCURY.HTM

You've got some basic problems here.

The Moon is not moving away from the Earth due to the initial impact, if that is what happened. The Moon is moving away from the Earth due to what is known as a transfer of momentum. That has nothing to do with "escape Earth orbit." The same effect causes the earth to move away from the Sun.

Why would a large object in space be "leaving debree behind"? I saw the same sort of thinking when it came to some other celestial objects. Pieces just don't break off and drift off on their own.

Your supposition that the experts are not keeping up with their field is also odd thinking. I'm sure the experts do keep current.

Please identify the particular test you believe is kept away from the public. The name "radioactive crystal" is not good enough. Please name the exact test and how it is used. Please tell us where this is done so that it is off limits to the public.

[Oniomancer]

i think i may have found one, a sedimentary meteorite that is,walking through a dense wood one year ago

Now that I would like to see.

[JesseCuster]

i think i may have found one, a sedimentary meteorite that is,walking through a dense wood one year ago i tripped over a strange rock buried on the dense forest floor, it seems no one is interested ,it is the size of a fist,magnetic,has d density of 3.2 oxidized through sitting for some time, has a burn crust ,has flow lines, and the thing is it also contains a fossil inside as it has split open.anyone who can enlighten me on the object can e mail me on daviespice@live.fr where they can receive pictures on request.

Have you offered it to the geology, astronomy or paleontology department of a local university for proper scientific analysis?

Please take several pictures of the meteorite in question from different angles (in good strong light) and post it online for us to see. I'd love to see what you've found.

Edited March 2, 2015 by JesseCuster

[Astra.]

Are you sure that facebook site is telling the truth? This claim of a "radioactive crystal" test sounds a bit loony to me. The name does not sound like a real test to me. Radiometric dating is a real technique. It employs analyzing crystals that are believed to be closed systems. Labs all over the world can do that testing. Why do they claim that this information is not available to the public? The site also contains a lot of irrelevant images such as images of the Eiffel Tower and a fake alien face. That suggests to me this is a site of dubious quality. A link to read more just brought me back tot he same page.

I think the site is full of baloney.

I hope you receive a response soon stereo. Seems he/she hasn't posted in a little while

[stereologist]

I thought I found a meteorite years ago. It was very dark and had scoops marks all over it. I found it in a volcanic ash area where everything else was light and yellow. I put this 30 pound rock in my pack and carried it out to my car. It turned out to be a large and pure piece of hematite. It was clearly of Earth origin. I guess it was worth carrying that rock out 10+ miles. You never know. I gave it to a university that broke it up and used it as material for freshman geology course.

Edited March 2, 2015 by stereologist

[whitegandalf]

i think i may have found one, a sedimentary meteorite that is,walking through a dense wood one year ago i tripped over a strange rock buried on the dense forest floor, it seems no one is interested ,it is the size of a fist,magnetic,has d density of 3.2 oxidized through sitting for some time, has a burn crust ,has flow lines, and the thing is it also contains a fossil inside as it has split open.anyone who can enlighten me on the object can e mail me on daviespice@live.fr where they can receive pictures on request.

Thank you for beliving and joining one of the most important hunts in human history. The search for extraterrestrial life (fossils). Great job with finding a promising candidate. I will contact you shortly and guide you trough the prosess of proving /disproving it. If your stone is the real deal, proving it can take a long time and cost a lot of money. Thousands of amateours are right now searching all over the globe for the most important stone in the universe. This is new good news, and i have no doubt we together will find and prove the first one soon!

Edited March 7, 2015 by whitegandalf

[whitegandalf]

You've got some basic problems here.

The Moon is not moving away from the Earth due to the initial impact, if that is what happened. The Moon is moving away from the Earth due to what is known as a transfer of momentum. That has nothing to do with "escape Earth orbit." The same effect causes the earth to move away from the Sun.

Why would a large object in space be "leaving debree behind"? I saw the same sort of thinking when it came to some other celestial objects. Pieces just don't break off and drift off on their own.

Please identify the particular test you believe is kept away from the public. The name "radioactive crystal" is not good enough. Please name the exact test and how it is used. Please tell us where this is done so that it is off limits to the public.

-The comet encke came into our inner solar system 20-30.000 years ago and has since been breaking apart. There are now at least 3 larger parts of it creating at least 2 massive large debreefields. Every year earth crosses the path of both these debreefields . Then we get a colourfull beautiful days of meteor rain, The northern and southern taurids. Why it are breaking apart i dont know 100 % for sure, but i assume it has something to do with the heat from the sun, as it goes quite close to it every 3,3 years (its orbit time) It is falling apart faster and faster. Experts say it might just have a few thousand years left.

-It is also called the uranium-lead dating method or lead-lead dating method and must be performed in a completely steril (lead++) special room. It is incedible expensive to perform. And i suspect there is only one machine in the whole world (i might be wrong). My country and Usa has to apply to the head board of nasa to get acess, and pay alot of money. Very few people have the power to file the application, only 1 person have the power to apply from my country. There are today about 15-20 different promising candidates from all over the world that are refused this test, even if they cover all expenses themself. The meteorite experts have from around 1920 refused all acess of different stone dating tests, to all finders of promising candidates to the missing sedimentary meteorites. The first one, i know of was a swede (the first 1920) who "killed him self" after dedicating 20 years of his life to get acess to the tests. Before he died he "hid" away his candidates. They are still lost to science. But pictures and drawings has made several respected scientists aprove his find as highly likely the real deal. But that was long after he died and the stone dissapeared.

Edited March 7, 2015 by whitegandalf

[whitegandalf]

The test will reveal how old a candidate stone is, when/if it left a planet/comet, how long /if the stone has travelled in space, and how long it has been on earth.

[stereologist]

-The comet encke came into our inner solar system 20-30.000 years ago and has since been breaking apart. There are now at least 3 larger parts of it creating at least 2 massive large debreefields. Every year earth crosses the path of both these debreefields . Then we get a colourfull beautiful days of meteor rain, The northern and southern taurids. Why it are breaking apart i dont know 100 % for sure, but i assume it has something to do with the heat from the sun, as it goes quite close to it every 3,3 years (its orbit time) It is falling apart faster and faster. Experts say it might just have a few thousand years left.

-It is also called the uranium-lead dating method or lead-lead dating method and must be performed in a completely steril (lead++) special room. It is incedible expensive to perform. And i suspect there is only one machine in the whole world (i might be wrong). My country and Usa has to apply to the head board of nasa to get acess, and pay alot of money. Very few people have the power to file the application, only 1 person have the power to apply from my country. There are today about 15-20 different promising candidates from all over the world that are refused this test, even if they cover all expenses themself. The meteorite experts have from around 1920 refused all acess of different stone dating tests, to all finders of promising candidates to the missing sedimentary meteorites. The first one, i know of was a swede (the first 1920) who "killed him self" after dedicating 20 years of his life to get acess to the tests. Before he died he "hid" away his candidates. They are still lost to science. But pictures and drawings has made several respected scientists aprove his find as highly likely the real deal. But that was long after he died and the stone dissapeared.

You misunderstand what I wrote. The comet is breaking apart due to internal forces. One is tidal forces when the comet passes the Sun. Another is outgassing that pushes pieces apart. The reason a comet leaves debris behind is the outgassing process. Let's take a look at the previous posts on debris being left behind.

There are many labs that can perform radiometric dating of this type. For example here is one:

http://actlabs.com/p...2&lk=no&menu=73

It was trivial to locate one online. You didn't even try or you would have been amazed at how many there are.

You seem to have fallen for a scam in that website. It simply isn't true that people are being refused. I also do not see how it s possible to do the dating that is required. It is not possible to determine the time in space by looking that U-Pb ratios. What might be possible is to examine surface nuclear changes due to radiation in space. That sort of dating is already in use on Earth in the form of beryllium dating.

A true sign of a scam is one in which there is the claim that someone did not want to perform astonishing work. Every scientist wants prestige and to be awarded something on the level of a Nobel prize. These are handed out every year to recognize new and wonderful achievements. Scam artists pretend that science does not want to change. They do that to pretend that their lies are being disregarded by others.

Couldent there bee more large masses of sedimentary rock floating out in space and leaving debree behind, that earths orbit sometimes crosses, and some fall down?

The comet is acted upon by outside forces that cause it to leave debris behind. These forces are strong enough to overcome the gravity of the comet. The pieces also travel along with the comet unless they are acted upon by forces. For instance, the tail of the comet is acted upon by forces that cause it to point away from the Sun. A rock moving through space that is not acted upon by forces does not leave debris behind.

You need to explain how a single dating method can separate time into multiple units. Not happening. A radiometric dating method produces a single date. Sedimentary rocks are difficult to date since they do NOT in general contain information that can be dated. On Earth we do have fossils. It is also possible to date rocks based on their position relative to other rocks. That cannot be done on a sedimentary rock of unknown origin.

Edited March 7, 2015 by stereologist

[whitegandalf]

The details of the test /tests are abit unclear to me personally. And i think you have some points. There might be two tests, not one, or the test i mentioned is the wrong one /not the most important one. I think its this instead.. Cosmic-ray exposure age test.. I will try to reseach the exact test that are needed and refused. I apologise for my lack of knowledge. I /we are learning all the time.

http://www.daviddarl...posure_age.html

This is no scam. We are a very poor 100% volountair non economic organisation. We want to find this "holy stone" faster than the old methods that has not worked for past 50-100 years. We want to educate both the experts and the public. Not sitting in offices, waiting, doing nothing. many "experts" and geologists are not educated and updated in the knowledge of the sedimentary meteorites. dont know what to look for. thinks they either dont exist, or look like ordinary meteorites with the black crust. we need to step it up. we need to be tens of thousands of hunters, not a dusins, we need to make the relevant temporaily (until first has been found) tests available to the amateours amd the public, both economicly and easier acess without first go trough the head geogolist of a country, and then apply to a small board at nasa. It isnt working. We need change and action, and thats what we are trying to do.More and more experts and amateurs are joining every day. and we are growing fast and making a change. We will find it, we dont care if you stereo or others disagree. Last week the largest meteorite page on internet had to refuse new members because of the pressure from all the new hunters questions and candidates. Look at our page, many of the very best scientists in the world are supporting us, billions of dollars has been spent by esa and russia in reseach on sedimentary meteorites, produsing new knowledge.

Edited March 7, 2015 by whitegandalf

[stereologist]

Many of these tests are quite expensive because as you pointed out there can be no contamination of the pieces.

You are quite wrong to suggest that people sitting in offices are uneducated and doing nothing. That's the sort of falsehoods that characterize scam groups.

You are also wrong about finding them on continental glaciers such as Antarctica. Any rock on top of the glacier is unlikely to have a terrestrial origin. It doesn't take much understanding that a rock on top of ice did not come from below the ice.

Then you change from people doing nothing to "billions of dollars has been spent by esa and russia in reseach on sedimentary meteorites, produsing new knowledge."

So which is it? Is it people doing nothing or active research being done?

[stereologist]

Im talking about the all the sedimentary meteorites, Mars ,Venus, Mercury, Earth-Origin and some watery moons..

Some must fall down from time too time.. The eject speed isnt that high, not higher than the descent. They should handle it just fine.

We have found over 50 other type of meteorites from mars that did handle the ejection and descent, why has we so far not discovered a single earth-origin meteorite of any type? (blasted out in space millions year ago) They should be larger in number than the martian ones.

Please substantiate that the eject speed as you call it is lower than the descent. I simply do not find that a credible statement.

I do not understand what you mean by "not discovered a single earth-origin meteorite of any type." Please clarify this statement.

[toast]

So this thread is about alleged fossils in meteorites and after the thread was untouched for 2 years now, all of a sudden a new

poster pops up and claims to have found a meteorite with a fossile inside.

Thats funny.

[stereologist]

If you get this article you can learn about cosmic ray dating.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0009281904700173

The abstract alone tells us that very few events have caused pieces of objects from Mars to obtain escape velocity.

Here is another article that points out that the object being dated must be moved to the surface to begin the dating process

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2003TrGeo...1..347H

Here is more information

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/lpi/meteorites/Technicalities.html

This certainly suggests that many labs in the world are capable of doing this type of dating

[Noctilucent]

Hi! If you are still there, check out this paper in a peer reviewed journal:
Anfinogenov J et al. John’s Stone: a possible fragment of the 1908 Tunguska meteorite. Icarus. 2014;243:139-147. doi: 10.1016/j.icarus.2014.09.006.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0019103514004680
I hope this helps.

[Bathtub]

For a wizard, Gandalf is remarkably bad at spelling.

[MWoo7]

A British/Irish Wizard?  eh we all have typos, if we broke the flow and well, wooould we get any ideasss downnn? If I can get the gist(which is jist by some) GOT IT! no problem, well unless its abusing the net like in some parts on purpose, that is another thing all together.

UPDATE: He's a wizard.  Some of the finest minds in the world ? you can't understand their notes, typing or signature but they're levels above me and others in science, equations, programming in multiple languages etc. Could be that, I'm just saying, hasn't anyone ran across that before?

Edited September 14, 2016 by MWoo7