My thoughts on God...

[Mnemonix]

Assuming you believe in God

Here's another one I don't get.

How do I put this...

God is omnipotent and can do anything with zero effort, such as create the whole universe and all its complexities, such as quantum mechanics or whatever. He's also all-knowing, infinite in everything, and the most merciful, whatever.

So, in religions such as Islam and Christianity, you go to Hell if you don't believe in said religion. In Islam, you apparently go to Hell, even if you're a good person but do not pray 5 times a day and follow the other teachings (according to someone I know).

God created Hell for the non-believers and the wicked people (and Jinns). In Islam, it is a place where you are tortured in the worst possible way for all eternity, where the fires are seven times hotter than the fire in this world.

So, why doesn't God just make us all believers? If someone is wicked, why not just make him good?That way that person doesn't hurt himself and others.

I know some people say, "No, that doesn't work, because you'll never learn from your mistakes, or you'll have no room to develop or find out who you really are in this world, ect, ect, ect.".

But I thought God could do anything, at least think outside the box.

Isn't God supposed to be loving and merciful? How is torturing someone for an eternity an act of love and mercy? If he only loves the believers, that is not unconditional love.These are human souls that are going to be tortured, that feel pain and sadness and were once innocent when they came into this world. Shouldn't God understand that since he created them?

Alright, let's move on to something else. Let's talk about the universe.

We all know the universe is big, it's so big, no human mind can comprehend it. Even the distance between two stars is so big our minds can't comprehend it, although we can calculate it. And there are trillions of stars in this galaxy, and there are trillions of other galaxies out there, and trillions of groups of galaxies out there. You get what I am saying, its a big universe. God created all of it.

Now, I, like every other human, am very small compared to the universe. So small it's beyond compare to the rest of the universe, I think you'll all agree. And, I, as a small human, would no even think of putting even my worst enemy through the hell god created.

But God, who created the big, big universe, would.

So how big is God's mercy compared to the rest of the universe? Did he create something bigger than his own attribute? I'm such a small human, and I have that much mercy, and it's nothing compared to God's mercy and love which is supposed to be bigger than the universe's because God can't create something bigger or grander than himself.

Also, I don't think any parent would want their children to burn in hell. So did God create a love greater than His? Or are human souls so expendable to God? What if God were to burn your children in Hell? How would you feel?

And, God cannot be harmed, I can. So why should he be angry at anything? He has it all, all the time, anything he wants he gets.

I hope I didn't miss out on anything, I hope that gives you something to think about.

It gave me something to think about.

Thank you.

So, why doesn't God just make everyone good, believers, whatever, and not go to hell?

Plain and simple, no pain, no suffering, unconditional love, thinking out of the box.

But I think I agree with some of the members here, maybe religion is just man's way of controlling people. If there's a god out there, we probably don't know anything about what he is like.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Mnemonix

[Mnemonix]

Kindly read through and stick to the topic, otherwise I won't read what you have to say.

Thank you.

For now, using the reasoning God gave me, I feel that something isn't quite right.

There is no mercy there, no matter how you look at it, unless come judgment day, God has some kind of surprise where he forgives everyone and admits them all into heaven. But, no, God never breaks his promises, and when he says people are going to burn in hell forever, they're going to burn in hell forever. Unless he goes against one of his attributes.

Religion for me is very stressful and gives me a lot of headaches.

I'm stressed out at the moment from trying to put my thoughts together to write this.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Mnemonix

[Frank Merton]

I think you should just admit that the God idea doesn't work and become an atheist. You can still have religion, just not of the Indo-European and Semitic sorts.

[Mnemonix]

I think you should just admit that the God idea doesn't work and become an atheist. You can still have religion, just not of the Indo-European and Semitic sorts.

Not giving up on God just, yet, giving the religious folks a chance.

After that, I'm becoming an agnostic.

Besides, I had to get circumcised.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Mnemonix

[Rlyeh]

God is all these things, yet a fictional story is offered for his creation of the universe.

[Mnemonix]

God is all these things, yet a fictional story is offered for his creation of the universe.

Tell that to the Creationists.

[Rlyeh]

Tell that to the Creationists.

They have a different holy book?

[freetoroam]

So, why doesn't God just make everyone good, believers, whatever, and not go to hell?

Plain and simple, no pain, no suffering, unconditional love, thinking out of the box.

===============================================================================

IMO it is proof that there is no god. People are individuals and if there was a god and he did all the above, he would basically be a communist if he wanted all to believe the same and do the same.

Edited May 21, 2013 by freetoroam

[Mikko-kun]

I'm really sceptic towards this kind of religion where you have a god who acts like that. The only thing bothering me is that at the same time, god is all-powerful but also has no mercy. Someone who's all-powerful but yet not powerful enough to extend some mercy instead of eternal condemnation doens't sound all-powerful to me. Maybe that all-powerfulness extends only to things around god, and god itself would not be so self-aware, not self-aware enough to be more merciful and give people a break. If that's so, then god is consequently not all-powerful because he doesn't have power over himself. I know there's the common explanation that Jesus died for our sins and thus we're given a big break, but I dont buy it... it's like backing up an open loan, like backing up someone else's credit card with a large debt-taking availability. I'm sure Jesus meant well and if the story is to be believed there, he might've saved a lot of souls, but I doubt he can save everyone. So it begs the question, what happens to those people when Jesus' backup on our loan on karma/burden/sin is used?

If we truly went to hell, and if the renounced son of god could make us his soldiers, then wouldn't the hell overpower heaven strategically already? I dont buy all that, not the way it's given at least...

If on the other hand god is all-powerful and more merciful, then what happened to the enternal damnation? Will he forgive his once brightest son who turned against him? Will he forgive to the worst of us and give another chance?

I doubt god is all-powerful in the sense a lot of people might think he is, for various reasons. And the reason god doesn't use all-mighty powers on us when it comes to free will questions, is because he values free will. He knows the importance of directing your own life and wants us to show him that we too can be self-aware and that we too can grow up to do that. If we're his children, he'd want that as a parent. I doubt anyone wants their children grow mass-minded idiots who follow just about anything, even though the world does seem to show me very wrong in this. If god had a well-developed mentality, he'd be between the choise of letting people know about him and consequently get the idea that "hey, there's a god and he can make all the bad things go away" even though it's not so because he wants us to think for ourselves as a first priority. He realises that there's no value in doing good things if they're only done because you have to, and thus respects people's free will even if it can bring strife. But this leads me to believe that he doesn't condemn anyone to hell, not forever at the very least, because he's put this test before us in the first place. Believing otherwise would lead one to belief that you can do anything you want those less powerful than you, and I think this is how a lot of people in christian and muslim countries act, very mercilessly. There's a major dilemma.

The most foolish thing I think done by religious people is to assume something that's physical in this world is god's word on us. Just because someone might make a miracle or have a vision doesn't mean it's god's work even if they said it was, because there's room for miracles in this world. Jesus' main ability seemed to be telekinesis and a good head for ethical thinking. Those are something very few if any of us have, according to sceptics none with kinesis, but still human abilities. And visions... we dont have the full grasp of what kind of entities things in the visions are, have we? So I'll refrain from being a believer who strongly believes in mainstream religions as they're represented by a lot of people. If you put all what Jesus did and what was written to a context with what people who have experience of astral traveling, visions (or hallucinations) and of the concept of telekinesis and it's alleged working, and ask yourself do we really know god is all-powerful, and how could we or those who said so, know.

If Jesus was no more a son of god than the rest of us, if Jesus was no more a human than the rest of us, then how could he know better? How could he wrap his head around that concept and at the same time fail to describe it in a way that'd make more sense to us? He and others. I ask because a lot of things dont seem to make sense... that doesn't mean there wouldn't be any higher entity, that's not the only possible conclusion. Another conclusion is that those who wrote about god got it wrong, made assumptions and mistakes. After all, those who wrote about god, weren't gods but us puny humans.

[Ever Learning]

To change that what has already been created would mean that God didn't hope for what has happened to happen. It's easy to say why doesn't God change, but I wouldn't wouldn't want to live in a reality where God second guesses his actions. Try to change your personality on the words of someone you disagree with and you already see that to ask God to change is ridiculous.

[Rlyeh]

To change that what has already been created would mean that God didn't hope for what has happened to happen. It's easy to say why doesn't God change, but I wouldn't wouldn't want to live in a reality where God second guesses his actions. Try to change your personality on the words of someone you disagree with and you already see that to ask God to change is ridiculous.

In Exodus 32, didn't Moses talk God out of slaughtering his people?

[Frank Merton]

And God decided to spare the Ninevites when the repented after hearing Jonah's message.

[Lilly]

Please do not degenerate into posting inflammatory remarks about others personally or their religious beliefs.

[Mnemonix]

There's a few other thoughts I have about God, but I think I forgot to list them.

Please do not degenerate into posting inflammatory remarks about others personally or their religious beliefs.

My apologies, I didn't know I was doing that. Any advice on how I can improve?

To change that what has already been created would mean that God didn't hope for what has happened to happen. It's easy to say why doesn't God change, but I wouldn't wouldn't want to live in a reality where God second guesses his actions. Try to change your personality on the words of someone you disagree with and you already see that to ask God to change is ridiculous.

Maybe, but how can I love or devote my life to a God who isn't merciful?

I'm wondering if I should try making my points and questions a little clearer.

I know my writing can be messy at times, because maybe I have difficulty putting my thoughts together.

Maybe what I am trying to get across is that I want to know how God is All-merciful and the most loving. It's not easy for me to see God that way and maybe that's why I have difficulty following and believing in him.

Besides, let's say the the Christian's God is the true god, then I'm going to Hell for not accepting Jesus as the son of god.

I think the Christian version of Hell is that the soul just dies, if I'm not mistaken.

In Islam, Hell is eternal punishment and suffering and Heaven is the opposite.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Mnemonix

[Mnemonix]

So, why doesn't God just make everyone good, believers, whatever, and not go to hell?

Plain and simple, no pain, no suffering, unconditional love, thinking out of the box.

===============================================================================

IMO it is proof that there is no god. People are individuals and if there was a god and he did all the above, he would basically be a communist if he wanted all to believe the same and do the same.

Yes you have a point there, but then again God could do something out of the box and make it so without being a "communist".

I believe God should do things "out of the box", but it seems that he is not doing it.

Just burn people in Hell that don't do what he wants.

[Mikko-kun]

Maybe, but how can I love or devote my life to a God who isn't merciful?

A good start might be to accept the possibility that those who wrote about god might've not gotten it all right. Because how could they know god is all-powerful? If god told them, do they assume gods can't lie or that they can't misinterpret things? Both wrong assumptions in my view, because god is basically a higher or another plane's entity, and as such it begs the question whether we can tie the concept of god to this plane.

I think it was S33ker here who said it about astral travelling, about encountering foreign entities there, or in NDE's, that they'd take the shape of whatever religious figure or god you'd think they were, that their shape you perceived was formed to you through your thoughts, your thoughts and views being sunglasses through which you saw them. Cayce also said things like this about these matters, if I remember right. I very much suspect that if those who wrote of god had visions, they probably didn't realise their own sunglasses and those who compiled the texts, edited them and put them together, made the text sound more definite or concrete, or encourage others to interpret it that way and the habit stuck through centuries and millennias.

So perhaps a good start might be to think that maybe there's mercifulness in god, or maybe god doesn't have the power to take us to hell forever. I think both are very possible...

[freetoroam]

Yes you have a point there, but then again God could do something out of the box and make it so without being a "communist".

I believe God should do things "out of the box", but it seems that he is not doing it.

Just burn people in Hell that don't do what he wants.

I would rather think that it is not a god who is making people burn in hell.

I believe that once a person realises that it is not gods will, but infact a sign that they need to look at what they are doing themselves in their own lives, then they can move on and start to re-evaluate their lifestyle and make the necessary chances to try and improve it.

I feel for certain people (and you may be one of them) that believing in a god and not getting any enjoyment from it, only confusion and heartache, then it would be time to let that belief go and concentrate on your own actions and take responsibility for them yourself and not blame or ask a god why things are not going your way.

Edited May 21, 2013 by freetoroam

[Mnemonix]

A good start might be to accept the possibility that those who wrote about god might've not gotten it all right. Because how could they know god is all-powerful? If god told them, do they assume gods can't lie or that they can't misinterpret things? Both wrong assumptions in my view, because god is basically a higher or another plane's entity, and as such it begs the question whether we can tie the concept of god to this plane.

I think it was S33ker here who said it about astral travelling, about encountering foreign entities there, or in NDE's, that they'd take the shape of whatever religious figure or god you'd think they were, that their shape you perceived was formed to you through your thoughts, your thoughts and views being sunglasses through which you saw them. Cayce also said things like this about these matters, if I remember right. I very much suspect that if those who wrote of god had visions, they probably didn't realise their own sunglasses and those who compiled the texts, edited them and put them together, made the text sound more definite or concrete, or encourage others to interpret it that way and the habit stuck through centuries and millennias.

So perhaps a good start might be to think that maybe there's mercifulness in god, or maybe god doesn't have the power to take us to hell forever. I think both are very possible...

I like your posts.

I think I can somehow relate to them.

Thank you, for the input, it's appreciated.

But I still want some answers from religious people.

I feel for certain people (and you may be one of them) that believing in a god and not getting any enjoyment from it, only confusion and heartache, then it would be time to let that belief go and concentrate on your own actions and take responsibility for them yourself and not blame or ask a god why things are not going your way.

Well, you have a point there, If something is causing me confusion and heartache I should just move on.But it isn't easy for me for some reasons, which I won't waste people's time with.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Mnemonix

[libstaK]

Not giving up on God just, yet, giving the religious folks a chance.

After that, I'm becoming an agnostic.

Besides, I had to get circumcised.

I don't think the path you are taking with your well thought out questions and what you are comprehending will lead to agnosticism - I do think you will forever be immune to dogma and cults, not to mention most religious teachings. I think you are doing great Mnemonix. I see you've noticed how good people are at creating God in their own image. Hellfire and damnation become pretty lame notions when we recognise how small a piece of creation each one of us truly is.

[Mnemonix]

I don't think the path you are taking with your well thought out questions and what you are comprehending will lead to agnosticism - I do think you will forever be immune to dogma and cults, not to mention most religious teachings. I think you are doing great Mnemonix. I see you've noticed how good people are at creating God in their own image. Hellfire and damnation become pretty lame notions when we recognise how small a piece of creation each one of us truly is.

Yes, I agree.

I think that we are such small pieces of such an infinitely big universe, that it is confusing to think that such a great, wise God would be angry at us and punish us with Hell.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Mnemonix

[markprice]

But I think I agree with some of the members here, maybe religion is just man's way of controlling people. If there's a god out there, we probably don't know anything about what he is like.

Religion is a bit more than just controlling people. Have a look at the Songs of Zarathustra and you will see someone with the right idea but also obsessed with law. When people are stealing your sheep and making your life a hell you tend to see the need for law. He tried to start a religion but it was not catching on until he got a ruler to back him up, then things began to change and the rest is history. Religions don't get far without law and they use law to get as far as they do. That needs to end. Separation of church and state needs to become real and understood by all people or true religion will never really occur without its wicked counter part: law. Religion + law = evil eventually; that's human nature, unfortunately.

[Frank Merton]

I think pretty much everyone on this forum is more or less "religious." That is to say even the atheists are some sort of religious atheists -- Buddhists, Taoists, Wiccans, Pantheists, Deists, etc. (not that most of those in these groups think of themselves as atheists) I don't think I've run into a firm materialist here yet -- we are told that materialism is the predominant philosophy of the west, but I see little of it left.

[Arpee]

God is omnipotent and can do anything with zero effort, such as create the whole universe and all its complexities, such as quantum mechanics or whatever. He's also all-knowing, infinite in everything, and the most merciful, whatever.

Don't forget the most importatn attribute (omni-PRESENT | all-PRESENT | Everywhere even within you and me).

So, why doesn't God just make us all believers? If someone is wicked, why not just make him good?That way that person doesn't hurt himself and others.

God is Everywhere, which means that God is within all. Some are believers and some aren't. There is no reason for everyone to think the same.

Isn't God supposed to be loving and merciful? How is torturing someone for an eternity an act of love and mercy?

"love" and "merciful" are human emotions applied to God. God is everywhere and within all. One will only be "tortured" for "eternity" if their ignorance is eternal. God is Truth.

God can't create something bigger or grander than himself.

"bigger than", "grander than" assumes that God is not omnipresent (everywhere).

And, God cannot be harmed, I can.

The physical body can be 'harmed' because pain is a way for it to protect itself. The soul just watches this pain feeling it. All physical things come and go.

So, why doesn't God just make everyone good, believers, whatever, and not go to hell?

Because that is not apart of the plan - how do I know this? Because reality shows that this is not the case.

"hell" is separation from God, but if God is "omnipresent" then there is no separation. That would mean that hell is an illusion and heaven is what happens when you break out of it. There are people in 'hell' (feeling separation of God/Love) NOW thinking thoughts of "conflict/hate", "separation/lonliness", "longing/disappointment" - without these thoughts there is an obvious unity that can be felt and seen.

But I think I agree with some of the members here, maybe religion is just man's way of controlling people. If there's a god out there, we probably don't know anything about what he is like.

Nothing can be known for certain except "I AM". How do I know this? Because "I AM" aware. Right now you are reading this words which proves that you exist. If you did not exist there would be no you to experience the reading of these words.

"I AM" is probably the only things that we can know with absolute certainty, everything else can be knowng but not with 100% certainty.

You exist, I exist, all things that you see are existing

(or you wouldn't see them - even if they were hallucinations - they still exist as something [ the hallucination])

Truth exists and Lies exist, everything is one through the fact of "existing".

Time is a concept/idea WITHIN existence which means that Time depends on existence but existence does NOT depend on time (meaning existence is eternal and this is why energy cannot be created or destroyed).

You cannot "come into" existence because in order to "come into" anywhere you must first exist.

This is the biggest illusion that people do not see!

Existence is God so that is how God is omnipresent.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Arpee

[Frank Merton]

It's kinda hard to imagine an infinite being who is not also everywhere, but the two are not necessarily connected. One can, for example, imagine an infinite amount of knowledge printed in books, making an infinitely tall stack of books -- the stack would reach into the sky and never end, and in theory could contain an infinite amount of knowledge (although not necessarily all knowledge -- it would depend).

Still, the stack would occupy an infinitesimal part of "all space" while at the same time occupying an infinite amount of space.

The same with "God." He could occupy all space or some small part of it or no space at all. He could have infinite knowledge and still not be omniscient, and so on.

[Mnemonix]

Don't forget the most importatn attribute (omni-PRESENT | all-PRESENT | Everywhere even within you and me).

I'll reflect on that, but the religion I was raised in teaches that God is not omnipresent, that he is above creation. Because if he were everywhere it could mean that he was in the toilet or in dirty things.

It's kinda hard to imagine an infinite being who is not also everywhere, but the two are not necessarily connected. One can, for example, imagine an infinite amount of knowledge printed in books, making an infinitely tall stack of books -- the stack would reach into the sky and never end, and in theory could contain an infinite amount of knowledge (although not necessarily all knowledge -- it would depend).

Still, the stack would occupy an infinitesimal part of "all space" while at the same time occupying an infinite amount of space.

The same with "God." He could occupy all space or some small part of it or no space at all. He could have infinite knowledge and still not be omniscient, and so on.

I'll think about that too.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Mnemonix