why did satan get kicked out of heaven

[GoldenWolf]

As if non-believers who are actually people who "don't believe" are going to be frightened by something they.... don't believe... that makes sense (not)

I don't think most believers understand that though, you understand.

[Jor-el]

Actually, I don't.

I wasn't talking about you... that is the normal character of a person who builds his own ego... psych 101

[Jor-el]

I don't think most believers understand that though, you understand.

They do, the problem is that unbelievers are caught in conversations not meant for them... between believers we may talk of unbelievers going to hell, but to actually use that argument with an unbeliever is unutterably stupid...

[GoldenWolf]

I wasn't talking about you... that is the normal character of a person who builds his own ego... psych 101

Ah, but your use of the word "you/your" implies direction, you should have just used a dictionary definition.

Do you think the rest of the believers think it was a general statement towards atheists, or a direct comment towards me?

Edited July 8, 2013 by HavocWing

[danielost]

I have said this several times.

If your doing good to go to heaven, your doing it for the wrong reason. You should do good because it is the right thing todo, not expect a reward for it.

[Jodie.Lynne]

Exactly. Doing good IS the right thing to do. Seeking reward, glory, or praise for the deed lessens the act itself.

[+Sherapy]

If Jesus had the ego you describe he would be taking credit for everything he did... I mean that is an easy enough thing. One doesn't change ones personality in one instance and be another in a different instance, why would this be any different from any other the other thousands of people, men and women, he helped?

In effect it isn't, he doesn't glorify himself once throughout the whole of the New testament, he always glorifies God as the author and promoter of everything he does... that to me is not building ones own ego... it is in fact the exact opposite.

You glorify yourself, your own works, your successes and it is all about you... that is building your own ego. That in itself demonstrates the falsehood of your affirmation.

Hmm, how is having a hardy/healthy ego a sinful thing, Jor el?

[+and-then]

This is one explanation from Isaiah 14. He sought to be equal with God. "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.'

This was my understanding as well. Satan grew prideful and imagined himself as being like God.

[hellig heilige]

This was my understanding as well. Satan grew prideful and imagined himself as being like God.

It has nothing to do with a Lucifer character. Read the chapter. Jorel made a point of this earlier on...................................................................

[hellig heilige]

Exactly. Doing good IS the right thing to do. Seeking reward, glory, or praise for the deed lessens the act itself.

How do you know you're doing good? Christians believe god is the only one whose good. Its like the blind leading the blind know what i mean..............................

[Jodie.Lynne]

Its OK euroninja, I'm not Christian, I believe that we all have a moral compass; some of us just refuse to follow the path it leads us on.

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

I think that all religions lead to the same purpose, like branches of the same tree, you know? all waters meet...I think that , Christ message is awesome and I love him , but I think that the church has stolen so much and has conformed society to think that there way is the only way and when i consider Christ message it was always about doing what he did within, and i see so much of the within in other cultures of religion , and in my mind and heart , it's that which is done from within that the creator knows us all...I don't even know a name of the creator just that what is done from love matters most and that is how i believe in God...It's like words and names don't even matter , it's what's within that counts most of all....and makes all the difference in the world...

Hi Reann,

Here's a fascinating video I found on Youtube that you may want to see since you're interested in cultural branches and Christian diversity:

God bless.

[markprice]

Grammatically feminine is not the same as actually female.

In Portuguese and many other languages we have the same type of grammatical structure...

A cup is masculine, a teacup is feminine, the saucer though is masculine.

Wisdom is feminine, a boat is masculine and a ship is masculine... get the idea... every single noun has a masculine or feminine attachment that is grammatically necessary. Hebrew is exactly the same way.

There is no way that you can make it stick that the Holy Spirit is a feminine attribute when the nature of the language itself attributes masculine and feminine articles to every single object and thought in the vocabulary of the language... unlike English.

You are just doing back-flips to deny the obvious. They used feminine words to describe a feminine aspect. Any child confronted by the holy spirit would sense it to have a feminine quality so the authors of the bible presented it in that way for that exact reason.

The bible is a historical recounting of the history of mankind, it supersedes philosophies that are only a few thousand years old.

If that were true I would have to agree with you but all this precedes ancient Egypt/Moses/etc. by thousands of years [see India].

[markprice]

Also, I'll type up some more FYI(you probably already know but anyway): " In their insatiable desire to extend the dominion of blind faith, the early archetects of Christian theology had been forced to conceal, as much as it was possible, the true sources of the same. To this end they are said to have burned or otherwise destroyed all the original manuscripts on the kabala, magic, and the occult sciences upon which they could lay their hands. They ignorantly supposed that the most dangerous writings of this class had perished with the last Gnostic;..." HPB

Now, why would they feel the desperate need to do that if they were not threatened by knowledge? You know, when Jesus said, "I am the truth..." and then the church made that exclusive dogma, all he was saying, literally, is, "I am not a liar..." Anyone who follows truth and speaks the truth is the truth as far as human beings are concerned (Truth is communicated in that way.). Anyone who destroys the truth is a liar, church/dogma included. You can still find truth in dogma but it requires real discernment not blind faith.

[Jor-el]

Ah, but your use of the word "you/your" implies direction, you should have just used a dictionary definition.

Do you think the rest of the believers think it was a general statement towards atheists, or a direct comment towards me?

I think most readers would understand that the "you" employed was a generic 2nd person plural as used to convey a message that is not firected to a single person, the context I used implies it...

You glorify yourself, your own works, your successes and it is all about you... that is building your own ego. That in itself demonstrates the falsehood of your affirmation.

If you look back at the post, you'll see I added this as an extended idea to what I was saying before...

I figure the last sentence is what led you to believe I was referring to you personally, that phrase was merely indicative in that the falsehood is demonstrated by the nature of Jesus character, which is in complete opposition to the idea you propose.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Jor-el

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

[/font][/color]

They used feminine words to describe a feminine aspect. Any child confronted by the holy spirit would sense it to have a feminine quality so the authors of the bible presented it in that way for that exact reason.

Hi Mark,

Presence equals company, residence, closeness, vicinity, spirit, permeation, whereness..., but it's not the visible Being, Itself.

"A point hath no dimensions, but only a whereness, and is next to nothing." Dr. Nchemlah Grew (Cosmologia Sacra)

Since God's "presence" permeates joy and love, perhaps people have mistaken His presence as feminine. We have, after all, been indoctrinated to think that anything touchy feely (or gentle in the heart and mind) is feminine. Sensing is not the same as "knowing" His genetic make-up, or actually seeing His human-like form. Jesus Christ, the visible God, is no girl. Spirit is invisible, by definition -- a whereness. Just a thought.

Here's the link on a piece of Gnosticism (but you may want to read the entire conversation about it), and it's quite different from the Holy Bible's take on God:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=248408&st=570#entry4828084

Peace.

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

[/font][/color]

If that were true I would have to agree with you but all this precedes ancient Egypt/Moses/etc. by thousands of years [see India].

It's the reason why God contacted Abraham to basically rectify His doctrine because apparently people have misinterpreted His words (and even deliberately omitted sections). With the Holy Bible in hand along with the internet's help, Christians are now able to look back and see where the diversions happened in time. Yes, I definitely understand why mystics have a hard time accepting the Holy Bible because it's really on the other end of the spectrum, except the touchy-feely stuff.

True, the Holy Bible's take is one version; however, it's the version that rings true to me, so far. There are many paths, but do they all lead to Jesus Christ? I'm a (Holy Bible) Christian today because I saw my encounter with Jesus Christ as my next "evolution," my ticket to Heaven. I find that the Bible Christianity is quite concrete, unlike my former mystical path -- a new thinking cap, so to speak.

Peace.

[danielost]

No one should be getting rich off of christianaty. Christ said I gave free, you gave it free. One of the main reasons I follow the mormon faith. No authorities get paid directly by the church. The employees are the only ones to get paid.

[GoldenWolf]

I figure the last sentence is what led you to believe I was referring to you personally, that phrase was merely indicative in that the falsehood is demonstrated by the nature of Jesus character, which is in complete opposition to the idea you propose.

It is just in opposition what you desire and project your desire to be.

[markprice]

Hi Mark,

Presence equals company, residence, closeness, vicinity, spirit, permeation, whereness..., but it's not the visible Being, Itself.

"A point hath no dimensions, but only a whereness, and is next to nothing." Dr. Nchemlah Grew (Cosmologia Sacra)

Since God's "presence" permeates joy and love, perhaps people have mistaken His presence as feminine. We have, after all, been indoctrinated to think that anything touchy feely (or gentle in the heart and mind) is feminine. Sensing is not the same as "knowing" His genetic make-up, or actually seeing His human-like form. Jesus Christ, the visible God, is no girl. Spirit is invisible, by definition -- a whereness. Just a thought.

I already mentioned visibility. Just like you saw Jesus the Holy spirit can be seen. And it's not a one time thing like the rare Jesus encounter; it's a presence that is always there and can descend at will or be channeled, and be seen as a comforter, especially by children, or it was just me, but I doubt that.

It's the reason why God contacted Abraham to basically rectify His doctrine because apparently people have misinterpreted His words (and even deliberately omitted sections). With the Holy Bible in hand along with the internet's help, Christians are now able to look back and see where the diversions happened in time. Yes, I definitely understand why mystics have a hard time accepting the Holy Bible because it's really on the other end of the spectrum, except the touchy-feely stuff.

True, the Holy Bible's take is one version; however, it's the version that rings true to me, so far. There are many paths, but do they all lead to Jesus Christ? I'm a (Holy Bible) Christian today because I saw my encounter with Jesus Christ as my next "evolution," my ticket to Heaven. I find that the Bible Christianity is quite concrete, unlike my former mystical path -- a new thinking cap, so to speak.

Peace.

With the bible and the Internet and other books you can learn many things. For instance the Catholics shamelessly ripped off the Indian wisdom which predates Abraham. I agree much was omitted and that's one of the things that makes research interesting. The reason so much was omitted is because Christianity crumbles under the weight of Truth. Did you know Paul considered Jesus to be a man filled with God, not actually God. Jesus was created just below the Angels to care for the earth. The writers of Genesis even got the first word wrong on purpose: It was not to mean in the beginning but wisdom. Creation happened after angelic formation. Why is this important? because it avoids the pitfalls of emanation which became the trinity and the greek gods based on kabalistic teachings derived from India. The first principal/God did not do the creating but the second principal--the image of God--did the work which is probably Gnostic (I'm still not concerned with Gnosticism but it may be correct). The Holy spirit is direct emanation from God IMO.

I have no interest in changing anyone's opinions; just trying to clarify my own. [more Jack Handy fuzzy thoughts or whatever]

[danielost]

Mormons teach, that all world leaders where picked before the earth was here. Christ too was chosen then. But, christ as a man when he was born. God communicated with jesus his whole laugh except for the last minute.

Further christ is the god, of the old testiment. Using the power of god he along with us designedll the planet.

But, christ is not god. He refered to his father or you father in heaven.

I don't think he would do that if he was god. How can you foresake yourself.

Sometimes, when I look at some of the creatures in the sea. Like sponges and sea cucumbers they look like experaments.

Edited July 10, 2013 by danielost

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

I already mentioned visibility. Just like you saw Jesus the Holy spirit can be seen. And it's not a one time thing like the rare Jesus encounter; it's a presence that is always there and can descend at will or be channeled, and be seen as a comforter, especially by children, or it was just me, but I doubt that.

With the bible and the Internet and other books you can learn many things. For instance the Catholics shamelessly ripped off the Indian wisdom which predates Abraham. I agree much was omitted and that's one of the things that makes research interesting. The reason so much was omitted is because Christianity crumbles under the weight of Truth. Did you know Paul considered Jesus to be a man filled with God, not actually God. Jesus was created just below the Angels to care for the earth. The writers of Genesis even got the first word wrong on purpose: It was not to mean in the beginning but wisdom. Creation happened after angelic formation. Why is this important? because it avoids the pitfalls of emanation which became the trinity and the greek gods based on kabalistic teachings derived from India. The first principal/God did not do the creating but the second principal--the image of God--did the work which is probably Gnostic (I'm still not concerned with Gnosticism but it may be correct). The Holy spirit is direct emanation from God IMO.

I have no interest in changing anyone's opinions; just trying to clarify my own. [more Jack Handy fuzzy thoughts or whatever]

The Holy Spirit showing Himself in human form is not Scriptural. Relating something to Scriptures is a must in Christianity, at least the Christianity I follow. Perhaps the children saw Jesus or an angel or a disembodied spirit...or even the devil. Holy Spirit or not, you had a vision. Seeing a "holy spirit" in humanoid form is more in line with Gnosticism. Their "holy spirit" is also feminine.

About the (Holy Bible) Holy Spirit:

"They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2:3

"...and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: 'You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.'” Luke 3:22

Well, I'm not a Catholic...

"The reason so much was omitted is because Christianity crumbles under the weight of Truth." How do you figure that? The truth in the Bible is solidly written -- I'm actually amazed and speechless. The Holy Bible is our solid foundation (until the day we die) and it's the reason why we can look back in time to compare things, and that also goes for the present. Fortunately, most people today can read, unlike ancient times. Every time I talk to my fellow Christian friends, it's like talking to a family member but on a much deeper level. At any rate, I'm the wrong person to convince that the story of Jesus Christ has little weight, but you already know that. To me, Jesus is 300% ALWAYS right as "reign." Always.

Regarding St. Paul and adoptionism, again, I'm the wrong person to convince. Besides, Paul never saw Jesus in human form; he saw a "light" and was blinded by it... Seeing and feeling Christ's "unconditional love" radiance work wonders, at least according to me. The God who took me out of that Void was no Aeon, let me tell you. I'm sure you've heard of "binitarian monotheism" by now. In short, my Lord knows His eternal, humble servant.

What do I know about Indian mysticism/"religion"/cult?? It was only my former path (22 years? not counting my years of wizardry), an ancient lineage that goes all the way to Atlantis, not just the shankaracharya of Puri and shivanism and swami Nityananda and kundalini yoga. To cut a long story short, this former kundalini yoga teacher / shakti channeler ended up a Christian -- the circle of Life. That's unheard of! That should tell you something, and I'm also selling all my pricey non-Christian antique, etc., items. Everything OUT-THE-DOOR. By the way, Swami Rudrananda was the guy who brought Swami Muktananda to America; my former lineage was no slouch. There's so much to say about mysticism...

"I have no interest in changing anyone's opinions; just trying to clarify my own." I know that, Mark. Besides, no matter what you say, you can never change my alliance with Jesus Christ. I have a first-hand premise, which is the 300% existence and super power (not just hype) of Jesus Christ. That's almost unbeatable, at least that's how my well-read, former-mystic, prodigy mind works.

You're a writer: You may want to base your religious research with a similar kind of premise in mind, especially since you've already seen the "holy spirit" in human form...and you're a diehard mystic. Again, the Holy Spirit showing Himself in human form is not Scriptural.

Peace to you, Mark.

Edited July 10, 2013 by braveone2u

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

Do we really want to go to creationism / Genesis? Here ya go, Mark, and have a fun time reading:

http://www.michaelsh...nd creation.pdf

http://michaelsheise...enome-research/

The way I see it, the other important thing is that Jesus Christ is a co-creator of this world. Plus, here's what I mean: "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea" -- Revelation 21:1.

Since I've seen Jesus, His weight among other so-called gods is the highest. As far as I'm concerned, what have the other gods done for me? Well...you may want to ask the same question. Jesus has already proven Himself to me. It's a no brainer.

Peace.

Edited July 10, 2013 by braveone2u

[markprice]

The Holy Spirit showing Himself in human form is not Scriptural. Relating something to Scriptures is a must in Christianity, at least the Christianity I follow. Perhaps the children saw Jesus or an angel or a disembodied spirit...or even the devil. Holy Spirit or not, you had a vision. Seeing a "holy spirit" in humanoid form is more in line with Gnosticism. Their "holy spirit" is also feminine.

Who said the Holy spirit had or needs human form?

Discernment is the ability to tell male from female (no form required) or evil from divine etc.

It's a natural ability often clouded by dogmatic thinking which falls away with experience.

[markprice]

"The reason so much was omitted is because Christianity crumbles under the weight of Truth." How do you figure that? The truth in the Bible is solidly written -- I'm actually amazed and speechless. The Holy Bible is our solid foundation (until the day we die) and it's the reason why we can look back in time to compare things, and that also goes for the present. Fortunately, most people today can read, unlike ancient times. Every time I talk to my fellow Christian friends, it's like talking to a family member but on a much deeper level. At any rate, I'm the wrong person to convince that the story of Jesus Christ has little weight, but you already know that. To me, Jesus is 300% ALWAYS right as "reign." Always.

Not Talking about Jesus, I was talking about Christianity. Christian thought and acts are often the exact opposite of what Jesus believed and taught.

Regarding St. Paul and adoptionism, again, I'm the wrong person to convince. Besides, Paul never saw Jesus in human form; he saw a "light" and was blinded by it... Seeing and feeling Christ's "unconditional love" radiance work wonders, at least according to me. The God who took me out of that Void was no Aeon, let me tell you. I'm sure you've heard of "binitarian monotheism" by now. In short, my Lord knows His eternal, humble servant.

I wouldn't even begin to dispute your experience. Just pointing out that the bible contradicts the basic fundamental principal of Christianity. It can't stand on a faulty platform IMO.

What do I know about Indian mysticism/"religion"/cult?? It was only my former path (22 years? not counting my years of wizardry), an ancient lineage that goes all the way to Atlantis, not just the shankaracharya of Puri and shivanism and swami Nityananda and kundalini yoga. To cut a long story short, this former kundalini yoga teacher / shakti channeler ended up a Christian -- the circle of Life. That's unheard of! That should tell you something, and I'm also selling all my pricey non-Christian antique, etc., items. Everything OUT-THE-DOOR. By the way, Swami Rudrananda was the guy who brought Swami Muktananda to America; my former lineage was no slouch. There's so much to say about mysticism...

I was accepted as a disciple when I was in high school so I know what you are talking about. Gurus are not always what they appear to be.

"I have no interest in changing anyone's opinions; just trying to clarify my own." I know that, Mark. Besides, no matter what you say, you can never change my alliance with Jesus Christ. I have a first-hand premise, which is the 300% existence and super power (not just hype) of Jesus Christ. That's almost unbeatable, at least that's how my well-read, former-mystic, prodigy mind works.

IMO keep Christ and question the dogma...

]You're a writer: You may want to base your religious research with a similar kind of premise in mind, especially since you've already seen the "holy spirit" in human form...and you're a diehard mystic. Again, the Holy Spirit showing Himself in human form is not Scriptural.

Peace to you, Mark. [/b]

No, I never saw HS in human form. HS existing is scriptural, but based on emanation from God is how I see it.

Edited July 10, 2013 by markprice