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danielost

why did satan get kicked out of heaven

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Also it says in the bible that the Devil was through down to the earth..

to cause lots of woes.

Well wouldn't it make sense to have rather casted him onto Pluto..

why send him to earth?

hell the universe is big... they could have put him anywhere...

why earth?

I still say they kicked him out for drinking all the wine in heaven...

I heard they have fine liquors up there..

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Also it says in the bible that the Devil was through down to the earth..

to cause lots of woes.

Well wouldn't it make sense to have rather casted him onto Pluto..

why send him to earth?

hell the universe is big... they could have put him anywhere...

why earth?

I still say they kicked him out for drinking all the wine in heaven...

I heard they have fine liquors up there..

I know that doesn't make any sense does it? It's like taking someone convicted of a crime and then banishing them to an elementary school where they can corrupt all the kids.

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Oh what a long thread and I been staying out of it. I don't think he was kicked out, he left in disgust.

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You know I was thinking about it, how it keeps getting said that Satan is the god or at least in control of our world now. Well it looks to me this biblical creator god is rather impotent in this world, got hoodwinked in the garden of eden by some being he supposedly created and had dominion over, does that even make any sense? Maybe this impotent god has no power other than to tell tales to gullible people to make them believe he's the true god, but he's not in control of the world at all because he's a fake god and is really powerless to do anything here, so he just pretends to be "letting" Satan have it. It reminds me sort of a short-man complex really. Oh that Satan better watch out when I really get ready to take my world and people back, oh it's gonna be bad, oh so bad, I'm gonna dress up in my Jesus skin suit and do some major carnage, but it's nothing but a bunch of talk, he couldn't if he wanted to or he would have done it.

Chloe, do think that God is powerless to stop what you described, or do you think the decision is rather to let things play themselves out?

Put yourself dispassionately in his position, would you strike out like the two year old everyone keeps saying you are (An accusation leveled every day on this board at God) or would you create and implement a plan that would irrevocably demonstrate that you are indeed in control but not the tyrant that everyone is assuming your are either?

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Chloe, do think that God is powerless to stop what you described, or do you think the decision is rather to let things play themselves out?

Put yourself dispassionately in his position, would you strike out like the two year old everyone keeps saying you are (An accusation leveled every day on this board at God) or would you create and implement a plan that would irrevocably demonstrate that you are indeed in control but not the tyrant that everyone is assuming your are either?

I would do some things that showed my positive side instead of just sitting back and say worship and this dubious historical character that no one is really sure about and saying............"I'll BE BACK!!" I mean what's up with this guessing game, why not just show who you are if you have the power, come from behind the curtain, it's all egomaniacal to me to hide and still demand love and loyalty when people have no idea what's going on with you.

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I would do some things that showed my positive side instead of just sitting back and say worship and this dubious historical character that no one is really sure about and saying............"I'll BE BACK!!" I mean what's up with this guessing game, why not just show who you are if you have the power, come from behind the curtain, it's all egomaniacal to me to hide and still demand love and loyalty when people have no idea what's going on with you.

Jeez Chloe, as far as I know he did just that... didn't help much except create Christianity which people seem to hate even more... so the question, just how loud a knock do people need to be convinced?

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Posted (edited)

Jeez Chloe, as far as I know he did just that... didn't help much except create Christianity which people seem to hate even more... so the question, just how loud a knock do people need to be convinced?

He also told us to put our light on a hill, for everyone to see. Meaning do what he did if we can. Christ did not create christianity. It was created because of him.

Edited by danielost

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Alright, I think I see the problem here: Crowley did write some outrageous FICTION. He was trying to gross out his wife who was getting carried away with erotic literature obsession. Maybe he saved his marriage or maybe it backfired, IDK. It was pretty gross though. I don't want to talk about it either except for the fact that you say you believe in personal righteous judgement...then you better have your facts straight if you want to avoid hypocrisy. Jesus allegedly respected Moses who was far worse than Crowley(genocide and mass child rape), and that is not supposed to be fiction.

Yeah , but I'm talking about his " The Book Of The law". It's in there. I don't like talking about that sort of mentality, it's just not something i care to talk about at all., it's why I detest Crowley..I don't even want to share here what I've read in it concerning sacrifice and the innocence of a male child as a perfect victim in what he was teaching regarding energy and such including which he taught doing so enhanced power, energy .

I won't complement him on anything because of that . He became the evil that he feed off of.

Oh Marc, you may have not seen where i said a lot of things pertaing to Moses and the Talmud..I think that horrible things were always happening and that it may have been easier for manipulators to manipulate others into believing that they were god like.... at least back I think that certain orders may still function, and always have in such cruel evilness. I think evil is a mental sickness ,but followers of Crowley seem to like to believe that there is no right and there is no wrong, yet they find wrong in Christianity?.I don't get why the Church is not addressed for overthrowing the old way , no they don't focus on that , more so they focus , I really want to say they hate on the "Christian Principles" of Christ Teachings . Yet they claim to not hold a belief in right and wrong? And so they accuse the church of creating sin...When it is the teachings of Christ that created the Church it self...I am not in defense of the church's actions , but I am always on the side of Christ....I choose the path of Yeshusa the path of Christ , I do not choose the path of someone like Crowley, who can not compare or shine a spark of light in comparison to Jesus...

An individual such as Crowley would do anything as he tempted his will to do so , and for what? what was his purpose or goal? There wasn't nothing that man would not have done to test the powers that be . He was more than capable of harming those that he wrote of in his book of the law...Referring to majick rituals and the use of victims ...Either you haven't read it for yourself , or , you'd like to think of it as being taken out of context , though I highly doubt it was taken out of context, it's very understandable and considering the individual was one that would actually place himself in the darkest experiences he could no matter what, and what for, what for? what was his goal , what drove him to do those things?..and I do believe that he has done so , many times...

On another note, the old way . not the path Crowley took , but the old way , was based on majick , some were manipulators and some were truly intuitive, knowing plants have spirit and all things have spirit. I believe that Yeshua was one who knew the old way and when i have read the stories contained of his teachings i can see it , I see where he referred to nature in the sense of the old way. That's the Christ I know...

Jor-el and daniel

are you two familiar that there are the 6th and 7th books of Moses?

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Why are you stuck on a need to have an entity to place on high? I mean really, people act like they need some moral eye in the sky or the world would go crazy from lack of immorality, well how's that working out for us? Because it is glaringly obvious from history that people can justify anything in the name of their god, anything. Believing they have god behind it just makes it more powerful in the minds of mankind.

Truly, it is illogical in stating that there is no creator..

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Jacob was a very strong individual emotionally, a lot more would be needed for him to break down and hallucinate something so clearly, especially if he had a limp because of it for the rest of his life.

Genesis 32:24-32

30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”

31 The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel, and he was limping because of his hip. 32 Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob’s hip was touched near the tendon.

You do know that Jacob had his name changed by God in that encounter, he was never again called Jacob, He was called Israel, “he who strives with God.” I think that says it all, on whether we are talking of an hallucination or a breakdown of some sort.

People seem to have this very strange idea about Jesus and God, that there is only love there and nothing else. There is also justice and there is also vengeance.

It is Jesus who will completely and utterly annihilate thousands of people who take the mark of the beast at his second coming...

Revelation 19:11-21

11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

king of kings and lord of lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

Be realistic in your approach to God...

One last thing, this event changed Jacob completely... because of it God could start his work in Jacobs life...

Yeah but , I see things as so ...I may be wrong but , a lot of what turns me off from the biblical concept of God moving on behalf of a certain people seems to have always felt political to me , not really like it came from a creator , but that people have manipulated others into thinking they have had the ability to control nature itself, such as crops ect.

I truly do not support Zionism and that's where all this seems to have gone. There's way to many wars and there's way too many suffering in the world and so in my own heart soul and mind , i don't really take everything literal in the bible. I see Jacob as one who may be considered as one who knew majick by a way of manipulating others, everything he did was of manipulation that i read of him....Maybe I'm wrong about that...

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Mark

Where Crowley had said :" A white male child of perfect innocence and intelligence makes the perfect victim"

Also , the two most important concepts he taught were The Law of Reversal and second Self awareness...

Though the second I have no ill feelings about it , other than it seems to me that it's concept is twisted in a sense of manipulation. I was taught or spoken to about a numerous amount of materials when just a young kid, I never forgot forgot them ever , it opened a window for me to not be trapped in a church organized set of doctrine, even though I do appreciate and admire the biblical texts as sacred, because they are , just seems to me that it's more than obvious they too were utilized in a form to control a setting , ones mind that is if one were scared into thinking and questioning things for themselves, no one should ever fear questioning their understanding of the mystery of nature and the force within and before it all came to being... though in my personal awareness , in taking the credit of that force within and before any of us ever were a concept seems to me that one than is suggesting they know all things, and we don't know all things, but we do know that there is a force within the universe that is an undeniable mystery...How could anyone excuse that ,as it isn't there? I was taught that we are all gods, but that there too is a creator a force but that this force coexisted with another force it's opposite and that neither could exist any other way...

Out of darkness comes light, some say...

There's a place in the bible , I think maybe in the book of revelations, i don't know where exactly it is but, that it says: God either wants you on fire for him ,or, cold towards him ,but that , God doesn't want you lukewarm towards him, that God would spew you from his mouth if you were just in-between...That always reminded me of gnostic teachings...

There a lot that reminds me of the old teachings in scriptures contained in biblical text.I've always questioned the church in the manner which they have taught what was from old, because i see the conformity and controlled it had taken over people, though I don't hold people like Yeshua accountable for what others have done.He too had even said that knowledge would increase . I don't think the church can hold back people like they once have , but I do not uphold the luciferian doctrine at all. That too can be traced to political manipulation as well as the church.. Though there are truths in both teachings....It's just a matter of will and balance. The key was always shared by Yeshua in how to open that within us all , as he had , it was and is always simple, so much so that he described it as a child could understand it , it was that childlike faith in having to just believe , the key was always to just believe. Crowley knew that too , though he for whatever reasons went in the other direction...

If I am going to praise anyone of the two , I will praise Yeshua for the teachings of Christ within, that's the path I choose....And even when I consider alchemy , not the green lion aspect of it ,where as manipulation of the elements are needed to attempt to base metal into gold ,but the deeper spiritual alchemical teachings , that we are of the very same atom as all life is of, and that the base metal is actually another way of seeing ourselves , and that we are to evolve and transform ourselves from within into that purest of gold...funny how the streets of heaven are paved with gold, and the kingdom of heaven is found within, right? So, I suppose i desire not a darkened forest , but that i desire to follow that golden road to that shining state of being...

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Truly, it is illogical in stating that there is no creator..

No it isn't illogical.

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No it isn't illogical.

Sure it is. It is because there is much more of a lean towards there being a force that is within the universe than there not being one at all. There is more cause to say that some force had to exist from before time existed other than nothing just becoming into something , something had to be first...

And look at Nature, the laws of it , are no mistake and just are for no reason or no cause...there is always a reason and there is always a cause ...

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Truly, it is illogical in stating that there is no creator..

Humanizing nature isn't logical.
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Jor-el thanks to jesud there is also mercy.

God didn't choose the isrealites to be his people because he liked them more. He chose them because abraham was the only one in his time who believed in him and not some idol.' He also choose them to bliss the whole world.

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Posted (edited)

Humanizing nature isn't logical.

What ? who said anything about humanizing nature? I sort of have a more so view of nature as in animism...you know, where as everything has a spirit...

Anyway , i came back real fast to add something and i don't think i can explain my thoughts of what i just had thought of too well just yet...It's fresh in my mind and I wanted to ask if anyone has had the same idea before...

I wonder a lot about a lot of things , as everyone else does too, right? we all wonder about things ..Has anyone ever thought that the polarities of opposites such as lets just call it good and bad are there for us , not that it's there because a force needs it to be so? like, that force is and always will be but that like they are tools for our growth, and to be known to the more pure form of that spirit that is within the universe? like if all things have spirit right, the one spirit of all is connected with all , but it can not be one in oneness if it is of two separate forces , it would not be able to be...like that saying a house divided can not stand ....

Anyway , i want to look into that a little more. I just don't think that a creator is both good and bad...I think that the natural laws of the universe are set in it's d.n.a of the universe , and is not bias to what we know as judgment, it just gives to what our will and desire is, but I think that is just a piece of the system of the home the universe , i think there's levels more above the laws of attraction and such...

It's like some say : what goes around comes around , but we are always doing it to ourselves , in that i see our part in creation.. Anyway ,hopefully I can construct a more in depth meaning of what i am thinking of ....

Edit : I had to fix something really funny where I made a typo..and i want to say that what I'm getting at is spiritual choices not like cause and effect , but the bad and the good or the dark and the light that we draw to as tools for knowing who we are . I don't think we are suppose to pass off bad or evil as human nature, and it's in that I can not move pass, though I do see it in the nature of some beings, just not that it's just human nature..

I always feel that there are two sorts of people in the world , good and bad...but I can never accept the bad as the way some students or followers of gnostic are willing to accept it ...I think evilness is like a sickness, and it needs to not be passed off as just human nature...I know occult practitioners let go of that thought , but I can't let go of the concept of right and wrong, because there is wrong and there is right....

Edited by Reann

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Yeah , but I'm talking about his " The Book Of The law". It's in there. I don't like talking about that sort of mentality, it's just not something i care to talk about at all., it's why I detest Crowley..I don't even want to share here what I've read in it concerning sacrifice and the innocence of a male child as a perfect victim in what he was teaching regarding energy and such including which he taught doing so enhanced power, energy .

I won't complement him on anything because of that . He became the evil that he feed off of.

Well Reann, at this point I will have to call you a liar, because there is nothing in the Book of the Law about child sacrifice. When Crowley speaks of sacrificing a male child, his diaries and other writings indicate that he thereby obfuscates the actual practice. Crowley did this by diversion of the act of sexual intercourse and other sexual actions. He considered contraception as human sacrifice. There is no indication in any of his writings that he ever performed infanticide. In fact, Crowley was even against abortion.

"It is the sacrifice of oneself spiritually. And the intelligence and innocence of that male child are the perfect understanding of the Magician, his one aim, without lust of result. And male he must be, because what he sacrifices is not the material blood, but his creative power."

Oh Marc, you may have not seen where i said a lot of things pertaing to Moses and the Talmud..I think that horrible things were always happening and that it may have been easier for manipulators to manipulate others into believing that they were god like.... at least back I think that certain orders may still function, and always have in such cruel evilness. I think evil is a mental sickness ,but followers of Crowley seem to like to believe that there is no right and there is no wrong, yet they find wrong in Christianity?
And how many followers of Thelema do you know? Probably none, though I know quite a few and none of them commit any crimes or engage in dubious affairs. This is just plain slander and lies from you.

You are entitled to your understanding of good & evil, but be it known that both are subjective and there are not 'set-in-stone' rules to which they apply.

I do not choose the path of someone like Crowley, who can not compare or shine a spark of light in comparison to Jesus...
I prefer someone who actually lived as to a myth.
An individual such as Crowley would do anything as he tempted his will to do so , and for what? what was his purpose or goal? There wasn't nothing that man would not have done to test the powers that be . He was more than capable of harming those that he wrote of in his book of the law...Referring to majick rituals and the use of victims ...Either you haven't read it for yourself , or , you'd like to think of it as being taken out of context , though I highly doubt it was taken out of context, it's very understandable and considering the individual was one that would actually place himself in the darkest experiences he could no matter what, and what for, what for? what was his goal , what drove him to do those things?..and I do believe that he has done so , many times...
Show us all where these terrible things are that Aleister Crowley allegedly did! You can't because there aren't any. If anything he was not the best father to his children and an absent husband to his wives.

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Jor-el thanks to jesud there is also mercy.

God didn't choose the isrealites to be his people because he liked them more. He chose them because abraham was the only one in his time who believed in him and not some idol.' He also choose them to bliss the whole world.

I recall that . I also recall that Abraham used to worship the moon-god until he left , moved on away from his tribe or people, right?

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Abraham was from Chaldea, from Mesopotamia, and from this most ancient land did he bring its religious myths that would become the foundation of Judeo-Christianity.

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Well Reann, at this point I will have to call you a liar, because there is nothing in the Book of the Law about child sacrifice. When Crowley speaks of sacrificing a male child, his diaries and other writings indicate that he thereby obfuscates the actual practice. Crowley did this by diversion of the act of sexual intercourse and other sexual actions. He considered contraception as human sacrifice. There is no indication in any of his writings that he ever performed infanticide. In fact, Crowley was even against abortion.

"It is the sacrifice of oneself spiritually. And the intelligence and innocence of that male child are the perfect understanding of the Magician, his one aim, without lust of result. And male he must be, because what he sacrifices is not the material blood, but his creative power."

And how many followers of Thelema do you know? Probably none, though I know quite a few and none of them commit any crimes or engage in dubious affairs. This is just plain slander and lies from you.

You are entitled to your understanding of good & evil, but be it known that both are subjective and there are not 'set-in-stone' rules to which they apply.

I prefer someone who actually lived as to a myth.

Show us all where these terrible things are that Aleister Crowley allegedly did! You can't because there aren't any. If anything he was not the best father to his children and an absent husband to his wives.

really, it's all there black and white, who's the liar? me or you? and had you read my conversation with Marc , you would maybe explain a bit more ,than just calling me names ... but maybe the issues lies in that I'm not "easily" swayed by Crowley as you may be...I don't think you can explain it any different from what it says.

It's there in a top first sentence in one of my reply's to Marc...please do explain what you think Crowley was referring to, and no need for you to wonder about who I know ....

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really, it's all there black and white, who's the liar? me or you? and had you read my conversation with Marc , you would maybe explain a bit more ,than just calling me names ... but maybe the issues lies in that I'm not "easily" swayed by Crowley as you may be...I don't think you can explain it any different from what it says.

It's there in a top first sentence in one of my reply's to Marc...please do explain what you think Crowley was referring to, and no need for you to wonder about who I know ....

I have explained it, don't you read the thread? I've explained it over & over again, as well as asked you to show us where Crowley committed any crimes . . . of which you haven't brought one iota of evidence, you just keep spattering lies and misinformation as usual.

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Posted (edited)

Yeah but , I see things as so ...I may be wrong but , a lot of what turns me off from the biblical concept of God moving on behalf of a certain people seems to have always felt political to me , not really like it came from a creator , but that people have manipulated others into thinking they have had the ability to control nature itself, such as crops ect.

I truly do not support Zionism and that's where all this seems to have gone. There's way to many wars and there's way too many suffering in the world and so in my own heart soul and mind , i don't really take everything literal in the bible. I see Jacob as one who may be considered as one who knew majick by a way of manipulating others, everything he did was of manipulation that i read of him....Maybe I'm wrong about that...

Zionism is a political ideology... that said, why should we refuse to give credit where it is due... the Jewish people are still a part of Gods plans... and will continue to be so.

Edited by Jor-el

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Mark

Where Crowley had said :" A white male child of perfect innocence and intelligence makes the perfect victim"

That could mean many things, but you have to realize Crowley was a sensationalist who fed the media whatever he felt like at the time. Interesting in the video you posted there is the quote "I have sacrificed babies!" or something like that from Bruce Dickenson's movie Crowley which is well worth checking out.

There's a place in the bible , I think maybe in the book of revelations, i don't know where exactly it is but, that it says: God either wants you on fire for him ,or, cold towards him ,but that , God doesn't want you lukewarm towards him, that God would spew you from his mouth if you were just in-between...That always reminded me of gnostic teachings...

Here you seem to be on the same page as Crowley because that's what he was all about (the movie makes that clear).

If I am going to praise anyone of the two , I will praise Yeshua for the teachings of Christ within, that's the path I choose....And even when I consider alchemy , not the green lion aspect of it ,where as manipulation of the elements are needed to attempt to base metal into gold ,but the deeper spiritual alchemical teachings , that we are of the very same atom as all life is of, and that the base metal is actually another way of seeing ourselves , and that we are to evolve and transform ourselves from within into that purest of gold...funny how the streets of heaven are paved with gold, and the kingdom of heaven is found within, right? So, I suppose i desire not a darkened forest , but that i desire to follow that golden road to that shining state of being...

Crowley had no problem with Jesus who he considered to be a gentle soul abused by religion.

The darkened forest is where the witch lives so be sure to stay on the yellow brick road, Dorothy. Alchemy is about transforming the dark matter not avoiding it.

... and considering the individual was one that would actually place himself in the darkest experiences he could no matter what, and what for, what for? what was his goal , what drove him to do those things?..and I do believe that he has done so , many times...

Alchemy. And children end up in the dark, then who made that sacrifice if the parents were clueless?: God. The only answer I can think of is a lot is learned in the dark.

I always feel that there are two sorts of people in the world , good and bad...but I can never accept the bad as the way some students or followers of gnostic are willing to accept it ...I think evilness is like a sickness, and it needs to not be passed off as just human nature...I know occult practitioners let go of that thought , but I can't let go of the concept of right and wrong, because there is wrong and there is right....

I think of evil as a force. Sickness a result. We all have to draw the line somewhere; that is the ultimate decision based on what you just cannot accept.

Anyway , i came back real fast to add something and i don't think i can explain my thoughts of what i just had thought of too well just yet...It's fresh in my mind and I wanted to ask if anyone has had the same idea before...

I wonder a lot about a lot of things , as everyone else does too, right? we all wonder about things ..Has anyone ever thought that the polarities of opposites such as lets just call it good and bad are there for us , not that it's there because a force needs it to be so? like, that force is and always will be but that like they are tools for our growth, and to be known to the more pure form of that spirit that is within the universe? like if all things have spirit right, the one spirit of all is connected with all , but it can not be one in oneness if it is of two separate forces , it would not be able to be...like that saying a house divided can not stand ....

Anyway , i want to look into that a little more. I just don't think that a creator is both good and bad...I think that the natural laws of the universe are set in it's d.n.a of the universe , and is not bias to what we know as judgment, it just gives to what our will and desire is, but I think that is just a piece of the system of the home the universe , i think there's levels more above the laws of attraction and such...

It's like some say : what goes around comes around , but we are always doing it to ourselves , in that i see our part in creation.. Anyway ,hopefully I can construct a more in depth meaning of what i am thinking of ....

You're such an occultist.

God: The ALL: "Oneness" etc. is the first principal (I'm not an occultist so correct me if I'm wrong). The first principal implies a second and so forth all taking place within 1 because that would be the source of the others. How can the opposite exist in that? It can't so a space had to be created for it. Then you have heaven and hell. Creation, Heaven and Hell = 3. How can that trinity exist in 1? [The bible explains 3 in 1 to a certain extent but only as God.] The other exists because it was created as extreme opposite, and nature mimics this reality in a harmonious way where outside of creation there is direct conflict--war in heaven, the lake of fire etc. So there is a dimensional division just like if you create another there is then a necessary division. It's easy to get stuck there so there is also a need for transcendence--back to One, unless, as you say, the other rout is taken which would ultimately lead to nothing or infinity, IMO. Why don't all people go that rout?because they have a choice; just because Crowley went that way does not mean he actually did all the bad things you imagine he did along the way even if what you consider bad he might see as natural for him. I judge him by the book of the law btw and that was no angel he was having a conversation with, but then his religion is based on conversation with each person's holy guardian angel (makes him a liar but it could be true for someone else)

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Zionism is a political ideology... that said, why should we refuse to give credit where it is due... the Jewish people are still a part of Gods plans... and will continue to be so.

This is true but they have already delivered the greatest blessing we can have. Eternal life thanks to a jew named christ, now they need to accept for themselves.

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