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danielost

why did satan get kicked out of heaven

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Also, I'll type up some more FYI(you probably already know but anyway): " In their insatiable desire to extend the dominion of blind faith, the early archetects of Christian theology had been forced to conceal, as much as it was possible, the true sources of the same. To this end they are said to have burned or otherwise destroyed all the original manuscripts on the kabala, magic, and the occult sciences upon which they could lay their hands. They ignorantly supposed that the most dangerous writings of this class had perished with the last Gnostic;..." HPB

Now, why would they feel the desperate need to do that if they were not threatened by knowledge? You know, when Jesus said, "I am the truth..." and then the church made that exclusive dogma, all he was saying, literally, is, "I am not a liar..." Anyone who follows truth and speaks the truth is the truth as far as human beings are concerned (Truth is communicated in that way.). Anyone who destroys the truth is a liar, church/dogma included. You can still find truth in dogma but it requires real discernment not blind faith.

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Posted (edited)

Ah, but your use of the word "you/your" implies direction, you should have just used a dictionary definition.

Do you think the rest of the believers think it was a general statement towards atheists, or a direct comment towards me?

I think most readers would understand that the "you" employed was a generic 2nd person plural as used to convey a message that is not firected to a single person, the context I used implies it...

You glorify yourself, your own works, your successes and it is all about you... that is building your own ego. That in itself demonstrates the falsehood of your affirmation.

If you look back at the post, you'll see I added this as an extended idea to what I was saying before...

I figure the last sentence is what led you to believe I was referring to you personally, that phrase was merely indicative in that the falsehood is demonstrated by the nature of Jesus character, which is in complete opposition to the idea you propose.

Edited by Jor-el

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[/font][/color]

They used feminine words to describe a feminine aspect. Any child confronted by the holy spirit would sense it to have a feminine quality so the authors of the bible presented it in that way for that exact reason.

Hi Mark,

Presence equals company, residence, closeness, vicinity, spirit, permeation, whereness..., but it's not the visible Being, Itself.

"A point hath no dimensions, but only a whereness, and is next to nothing." Dr. Nchemlah Grew (Cosmologia Sacra)

Since God's "presence" permeates joy and love, perhaps people have mistaken His presence as feminine. We have, after all, been indoctrinated to think that anything touchy feely (or gentle in the heart and mind) is feminine. Sensing is not the same as "knowing" His genetic make-up, or actually seeing His human-like form. Jesus Christ, the visible God, is no girl. Spirit is invisible, by definition -- a whereness. Just a thought.

Here's the link on a piece of Gnosticism (but you may want to read the entire conversation about it), and it's quite different from the Holy Bible's take on God:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=248408&st=570#entry4828084

Peace.

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If that were true I would have to agree with you but all this precedes ancient Egypt/Moses/etc. by thousands of years [see India].

It's the reason why God contacted Abraham to basically rectify His doctrine because apparently people have misinterpreted His words (and even deliberately omitted sections). With the Holy Bible in hand along with the internet's help, Christians are now able to look back and see where the diversions happened in time. Yes, I definitely understand why mystics have a hard time accepting the Holy Bible because it's really on the other end of the spectrum, except the touchy-feely stuff.

True, the Holy Bible's take is one version; however, it's the version that rings true to me, so far. There are many paths, but do they all lead to Jesus Christ? I'm a (Holy Bible) Christian today because I saw my encounter with Jesus Christ as my next "evolution," my ticket to Heaven. I find that the Bible Christianity is quite concrete, unlike my former mystical path -- a new thinking cap, so to speak.

Peace.

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No one should be getting rich off of christianaty. Christ said I gave free, you gave it free. One of the main reasons I follow the mormon faith. No authorities get paid directly by the church. The employees are the only ones to get paid.

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I figure the last sentence is what led you to believe I was referring to you personally, that phrase was merely indicative in that the falsehood is demonstrated by the nature of Jesus character, which is in complete opposition to the idea you propose.

It is just in opposition what you desire and project your desire to be.

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Hi Mark,

Presence equals company, residence, closeness, vicinity, spirit, permeation, whereness..., but it's not the visible Being, Itself.

"A point hath no dimensions, but only a whereness, and is next to nothing." Dr. Nchemlah Grew (Cosmologia Sacra)

Since God's "presence" permeates joy and love, perhaps people have mistaken His presence as feminine. We have, after all, been indoctrinated to think that anything touchy feely (or gentle in the heart and mind) is feminine. Sensing is not the same as "knowing" His genetic make-up, or actually seeing His human-like form. Jesus Christ, the visible God, is no girl. Spirit is invisible, by definition -- a whereness. Just a thought.

I already mentioned visibility. Just like you saw Jesus the Holy spirit can be seen. And it's not a one time thing like the rare Jesus encounter; it's a presence that is always there and can descend at will or be channeled, and be seen as a comforter, especially by children, or it was just me, but I doubt that.

It's the reason why God contacted Abraham to basically rectify His doctrine because apparently people have misinterpreted His words (and even deliberately omitted sections). With the Holy Bible in hand along with the internet's help, Christians are now able to look back and see where the diversions happened in time. Yes, I definitely understand why mystics have a hard time accepting the Holy Bible because it's really on the other end of the spectrum, except the touchy-feely stuff.

True, the Holy Bible's take is one version; however, it's the version that rings true to me, so far. There are many paths, but do they all lead to Jesus Christ? I'm a (Holy Bible) Christian today because I saw my encounter with Jesus Christ as my next "evolution," my ticket to Heaven. I find that the Bible Christianity is quite concrete, unlike my former mystical path -- a new thinking cap, so to speak.

Peace.

With the bible and the Internet and other books you can learn many things. For instance the Catholics shamelessly ripped off the Indian wisdom which predates Abraham. I agree much was omitted and that's one of the things that makes research interesting. The reason so much was omitted is because Christianity crumbles under the weight of Truth. Did you know Paul considered Jesus to be a man filled with God, not actually God. Jesus was created just below the Angels to care for the earth. The writers of Genesis even got the first word wrong on purpose: It was not to mean in the beginning but wisdom. Creation happened after angelic formation. Why is this important? because it avoids the pitfalls of emanation which became the trinity and the greek gods based on kabalistic teachings derived from India. The first principal/God did not do the creating but the second principal--the image of God--did the work which is probably Gnostic (I'm still not concerned with Gnosticism but it may be correct). The Holy spirit is direct emanation from God IMO.

I have no interest in changing anyone's opinions; just trying to clarify my own. [more Jack Handy fuzzy thoughts or whatever]

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Posted (edited)

Mormons teach, that all world leaders where picked before the earth was here. Christ too was chosen then. But, christ as a man when he was born. God communicated with jesus his whole laugh except for the last minute.

Further christ is the god, of the old testiment. Using the power of god he along with us designedll the planet.

But, christ is not god. He refered to his father or you father in heaven.

I don't think he would do that if he was god. How can you foresake yourself.

Sometimes, when I look at some of the creatures in the sea. Like sponges and sea cucumbers they look like experaments.

Edited by danielost

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Posted (edited)

I already mentioned visibility. Just like you saw Jesus the Holy spirit can be seen. And it's not a one time thing like the rare Jesus encounter; it's a presence that is always there and can descend at will or be channeled, and be seen as a comforter, especially by children, or it was just me, but I doubt that.

With the bible and the Internet and other books you can learn many things. For instance the Catholics shamelessly ripped off the Indian wisdom which predates Abraham. I agree much was omitted and that's one of the things that makes research interesting. The reason so much was omitted is because Christianity crumbles under the weight of Truth. Did you know Paul considered Jesus to be a man filled with God, not actually God. Jesus was created just below the Angels to care for the earth. The writers of Genesis even got the first word wrong on purpose: It was not to mean in the beginning but wisdom. Creation happened after angelic formation. Why is this important? because it avoids the pitfalls of emanation which became the trinity and the greek gods based on kabalistic teachings derived from India. The first principal/God did not do the creating but the second principal--the image of God--did the work which is probably Gnostic (I'm still not concerned with Gnosticism but it may be correct). The Holy spirit is direct emanation from God IMO.

I have no interest in changing anyone's opinions; just trying to clarify my own. [more Jack Handy fuzzy thoughts or whatever]

The Holy Spirit showing Himself in human form is not Scriptural. Relating something to Scriptures is a must in Christianity, at least the Christianity I follow. Perhaps the children saw Jesus or an angel or a disembodied spirit...or even the devil. Holy Spirit or not, you had a vision. Seeing a "holy spirit" in humanoid form is more in line with Gnosticism. Their "holy spirit" is also feminine.

About the (Holy Bible) Holy Spirit:

"They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2:3

"...and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: 'You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.'” Luke 3:22

Well, I'm not a Catholic...

"The reason so much was omitted is because Christianity crumbles under the weight of Truth." How do you figure that? The truth in the Bible is solidly written -- I'm actually amazed and speechless. The Holy Bible is our solid foundation (until the day we die) and it's the reason why we can look back in time to compare things, and that also goes for the present. Fortunately, most people today can read, unlike ancient times. Every time I talk to my fellow Christian friends, it's like talking to a family member but on a much deeper level. At any rate, I'm the wrong person to convince that the story of Jesus Christ has little weight, but you already know that. To me, Jesus is 300% ALWAYS right as "reign." Always.

Regarding St. Paul and adoptionism, again, I'm the wrong person to convince. Besides, Paul never saw Jesus in human form; he saw a "light" and was blinded by it... Seeing and feeling Christ's "unconditional love" radiance work wonders, at least according to me. The God who took me out of that Void was no Aeon, let me tell you. I'm sure you've heard of "binitarian monotheism" by now. In short, my Lord knows His eternal, humble servant.

What do I know about Indian mysticism/"religion"/cult?? It was only my former path (22 years? not counting my years of wizardry), an ancient lineage that goes all the way to Atlantis, not just the shankaracharya of Puri and shivanism and swami Nityananda and kundalini yoga. To cut a long story short, this former kundalini yoga teacher / shakti channeler ended up a Christian -- the circle of Life. That's unheard of! That should tell you something, and I'm also selling all my pricey non-Christian antique, etc., items. Everything OUT-THE-DOOR. By the way, Swami Rudrananda was the guy who brought Swami Muktananda to America; my former lineage was no slouch. There's so much to say about mysticism...

"I have no interest in changing anyone's opinions; just trying to clarify my own." I know that, Mark. Besides, no matter what you say, you can never change my alliance with Jesus Christ. I have a first-hand premise, which is the 300% existence and super power (not just hype) of Jesus Christ. That's almost unbeatable, at least that's how my well-read, former-mystic, prodigy mind works.

You're a writer: You may want to base your religious research with a similar kind of premise in mind, especially since you've already seen the "holy spirit" in human form...and you're a diehard mystic. Again, the Holy Spirit showing Himself in human form is not Scriptural.

Peace to you, Mark.

Edited by braveone2u

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Posted (edited)

Do we really want to go to creationism / Genesis? Here ya go, Mark, and have a fun time reading:

http://www.michaelsh...nd creation.pdf

http://michaelsheise...enome-research/

The way I see it, the other important thing is that Jesus Christ is a co-creator of this world. Plus, here's what I mean: "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea" -- Revelation 21:1.

Since I've seen Jesus, His weight among other so-called gods is the highest. As far as I'm concerned, what have the other gods done for me? Well...you may want to ask the same question. Jesus has already proven Himself to me. It's a no brainer.

Peace.

Edited by braveone2u

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The Holy Spirit showing Himself in human form is not Scriptural. Relating something to Scriptures is a must in Christianity, at least the Christianity I follow. Perhaps the children saw Jesus or an angel or a disembodied spirit...or even the devil. Holy Spirit or not, you had a vision. Seeing a "holy spirit" in humanoid form is more in line with Gnosticism. Their "holy spirit" is also feminine.

Who said the Holy spirit had or needs human form?

Discernment is the ability to tell male from female (no form required) or evil from divine etc.

It's a natural ability often clouded by dogmatic thinking which falls away with experience.

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Posted (edited)

"The reason so much was omitted is because Christianity crumbles under the weight of Truth." How do you figure that? The truth in the Bible is solidly written -- I'm actually amazed and speechless. The Holy Bible is our solid foundation (until the day we die) and it's the reason why we can look back in time to compare things, and that also goes for the present. Fortunately, most people today can read, unlike ancient times. Every time I talk to my fellow Christian friends, it's like talking to a family member but on a much deeper level. At any rate, I'm the wrong person to convince that the story of Jesus Christ has little weight, but you already know that. To me, Jesus is 300% ALWAYS right as "reign." Always.

Not Talking about Jesus, I was talking about Christianity. Christian thought and acts are often the exact opposite of what Jesus believed and taught.

Regarding St. Paul and adoptionism, again, I'm the wrong person to convince. Besides, Paul never saw Jesus in human form; he saw a "light" and was blinded by it... Seeing and feeling Christ's "unconditional love" radiance work wonders, at least according to me. The God who took me out of that Void was no Aeon, let me tell you. I'm sure you've heard of "binitarian monotheism" by now. In short, my Lord knows His eternal, humble servant.

I wouldn't even begin to dispute your experience. Just pointing out that the bible contradicts the basic fundamental principal of Christianity. It can't stand on a faulty platform IMO.

What do I know about Indian mysticism/"religion"/cult?? It was only my former path (22 years? not counting my years of wizardry), an ancient lineage that goes all the way to Atlantis, not just the shankaracharya of Puri and shivanism and swami Nityananda and kundalini yoga. To cut a long story short, this former kundalini yoga teacher / shakti channeler ended up a Christian -- the circle of Life. That's unheard of! That should tell you something, and I'm also selling all my pricey non-Christian antique, etc., items. Everything OUT-THE-DOOR. By the way, Swami Rudrananda was the guy who brought Swami Muktananda to America; my former lineage was no slouch. There's so much to say about mysticism...

I was accepted as a disciple when I was in high school so I know what you are talking about. Gurus are not always what they appear to be.

"I have no interest in changing anyone's opinions; just trying to clarify my own." I know that, Mark. Besides, no matter what you say, you can never change my alliance with Jesus Christ. I have a first-hand premise, which is the 300% existence and super power (not just hype) of Jesus Christ. That's almost unbeatable, at least that's how my well-read, former-mystic, prodigy mind works.

IMO keep Christ and question the dogma...

]You're a writer: You may want to base your religious research with a similar kind of premise in mind, especially since you've already seen the "holy spirit" in human form...and you're a diehard mystic. Again, the Holy Spirit showing Himself in human form is not Scriptural.

Peace to you, Mark. [/b]

No, I never saw HS in human form. HS existing is scriptural, but based on emanation from God is how I see it.

Edited by markprice
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Do we really want to go to creationism / Genesis? Here ya go, Mark, and have a fun time reading:

http://www.michaelsh...nd creation.pdf

http://michaelsheise...enome-research/

The way I see it, the other important thing is that Jesus Christ is a co-creator of this world. Plus, here's what I mean: "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea" -- Revelation 21:1.

Since I've seen Jesus, His weight among other so-called gods is the highest. As far as I'm concerned, what have the other gods done for me? Well...you may want to ask the same question. Jesus has already proven Himself to me. It's a no brainer.

Peace.

Jesus is the third principal: the word. It goes: God: first principal, image of God second and the word is third. I'm not about to read links on creationism; if you think something is true just say it concisely. There is no "In the beginning" in Genesis. The bible starts off on the wrong foot intentionally to avoid the fact that it was derived from the principals that include emanation which totally undermines the dogma of Christianity, not Jesus. Paul may have been a sexual neurotic but he did get some things right [Hebrews 2:9 non-revised]

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It is just in opposition what you desire and project your desire to be.

Ok I didn't get that, somehow I'm missing the meaning of your phrase.

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Posted (edited)

Who said the Holy spirit had or needs human form?

Discernment is the ability to tell male from female (no form required) or evil from divine etc.

It's a natural ability often clouded by dogmatic thinking which falls away with experience.

dis·cern

[dih-surn, -zurn] Show IPA

verb (used with object)

1.

to perceive by the sight or some other sense or by the intellect; see, recognize, or apprehend...

Since I've already seen Jesus Christ, everything (the way I process things, beliefs, faiths, etc.) is based on Him. Everything else is tertiary because secondary is too close for comfort -- ha ha. If Jesus/God were not the main God, the book and its teachings would be useless to me, at this stage of my life. It's bad enough that there's so much reading in Christianity. I feel like a studio reader jockeying for a better position. Time is of the essence, for I'm no spring chicken and I'm a very busy man. I use the Holy Bible because it's the closest thing that describes Him; therefore, it's the book I closely follow, and the most important narrative in the world. You, on the other hand, don't have to follow it. Like I said, your experience is more in the Gnosticism. At any rate, to focus on one thing is the key for me. Focus, focus, focus.

Not Talking about Jesus, I was talking about Christianity. Christian thought and acts are often the exact opposite of what Jesus believed and taught.

It can't stand on a faulty platform IMO.

I'm not here to judge other Christians, how they think and act. Negativity is negativity and there's a lot of that going on, but I don't have to be around it. Some even say that not all Christians are "born again." Thankfully, Jesus forgives our mistakes, and He knows what's in our hearts.

How could it not stand, especially since Jesus/God is the central hero? That's basic storytelling 101. The hero has been defined, proven good and just...and hailed as a TOTAL savior. No other god has shown himself or herself to me, especially in my hour of need. The afterlife is the most important test -- I don't have to tell you that because you already know what that's like. A God's action and personal appearance speak louder than written words. True conversion doesn't happen by words alone.

No, I never saw HS in human form.

IMO keep Christ and question the dogma...

People say that every path leads to God. Well, I'm a good example of that, people seem to forget. I started out as a hardcore pagan mystic (I mean, I was channeling energies, for goodness sake!) and ended up with Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I was NOT damned in hell, contrary to what many Christians believe about a non-Christian's fate. Even in the afterlife, there is still hope and redemption. Jesus Christ is not a petty God. To me, the Holy Bible is a reference book, a Holy manual...but then again, I'm not your normal Christian, either, because of my Christ experience. In the end, my faith in Jesus Christ is a private affair. He already knows what's in my heart.

Here's the one thing about mysticism that I've learned: Results are important; otherwise, the path is an illusion. Mind you, I'm not saying that mysticism is not real. True enough, it will dish out the material goodies -- no problem. It will even do more than that. Like I said, I was channeling "energies" as a teacher / conduit. Here's what I'm asking, however: Will it be there for you in the afterlife?

On the other hand, there are consequences when we switch sides...

Peace to you, Mark.

Edited by braveone2u

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Posted (edited)

You are just doing back-flips to deny the obvious. They used feminine words to describe a feminine aspect. Any child confronted by the holy spirit would sense it to have a feminine quality so the authors of the bible presented it in that way for that exact reason.

I have been filled with the Holy Spirit on occasion, and not once have I ever felt the feminine aspect you state is there... not even a male aspect either... I just felt the extreme presence of Holiness that left me on my back. I sensed God.

And I don't do backflips, what I do is study the Hebrew and learn from those who know it.

If that were true I would have to agree with you but all this precedes ancient Egypt/Moses/etc. by thousands of years [see India].

Does it precede ancient Mesopotamia and Sumeria?

Because that is where it originates from. As such 4000 B.C. is being conservative... India is 3500 B.C. almost 500 years later. The Vedas, which the religious texts you are indirectly referring to are of comparable age to the bible though...

The difference is that they speak of events from a human memory and as such have as much fact as myth... I don't believe it to be the case with the bible. In may ways they actually complement one another as religious works.

Edited by Jor-el

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"The bible is a historical recounting of the history of mankind, it supersedes philosophies that are only a few thousand years old."

Hardly . . . the Christian bible is not an accountable source for history, any scholar will tell you that.

The principle of the Feminine is not the opposite of Masculine as we are so used to making comparisons of, it is exactly like how modern psychology understands it, as one of two primary anthropomorphic archetypes of the unconscious mind. In the unconscious of the male, this archetype finds expression as a feminine inner personality: anima; equivalently, in the unconscious of the female it is expressed as a masculine inner personality: animus.

This "holy spirit" thing everyone is mentioning is in Luciferian philosophy, our Higher Self, but not our most perfect Self. We refer to this as our Dæmon from the Platonic/Socratic philosophies and while it is true that someone in 'conversation' with their Dæmon is being guided much like the Abrahamic 'Guardian Angel", this higher self is only brought into our consciousness through the Arts.

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Posted (edited)

I have been filled with the Holy Spirit on occasion, and not once have I ever felt the feminine aspect you state is there... not even a male aspect either... I just felt the extreme presence of Holiness that left me on my back. I sensed God.

At the end of the day that is what matters.

And I don't do backflips, what I do is study the Hebrew and learn from those who know it.

And others who know about it: the scholarly study of the Bible in its original languages:

Condemned by Catholics and Protestants alike, Michael Servetus was arrested in Geneva and burnt at the stake as a heretic by order of the Protestant Geneva governing council.

In his first two books (De trinitatis erroribus, and Dialogues on the Trinity plus the supplementary De Iustitia Regni Christi) Servetus rejected the classical conception of the Trinity, stating that it was not based on the Bible. He argued that it arose from teachings of Greek philosophers, and he advocated a return to the simplicity of the Gospels and the teachings of the early Church Fathers that he believed pre-dated the development of Nicene trinitarianism.

Does it precede ancient Mesopotamia and Sumeria?

Yeah, over 10,000 years ago is where some of the information can be traced; I don't remember where I read that though.

Because that is where it originates from. As such 4000 B.C. is being conservative... India is 3500 B.C. almost 500 years later. The Vedas, which the religious texts you are indirectly referring to are of comparable age to the bible though...

Some anthropologists hypothesize that the region was settled by multiple human migrations over tens of millennia, which makes it even harder to select certain groups as being truly aboriginal.

The difference is that they speak of events from a human memory and as such have as much fact as myth... I don't believe it to be the case with the bible. In may ways they actually complement one another as religious works.

The sources of the Indian knowledge go back to Atlantis like everything else, alledgedly, or for example they know that it took 40,000 years to map the sky(including astrological aspects). But then you are getting into the realm of secret societies with unbroken transmission beyond archaeological history.

Just to sum up: I didn't know that emanationists exist before today. Something has always struck me as false about Gnosticism so I don't go there. I don't really believe emanationism literally but I have experienced emanation yet that would not make me want to study kabala. I was able to spend some time recently in the amazing library of the Philosophical Research Society but I disagree with a certain percentage of MP Hall's teachings. I do not believe there is any system I agree with entirely. What I do agree with is the theory that each system is a part of of something greater that reveals itself as you progress. I don't know how this is done but it happens all the time and just when you think you've lost the thread knowledge continues in some form. They say if you talk about it you risk breaking the thread, but I say so what, let it break and see where that takes you...and so it continues.

Edited by markprice
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I do not believe there is any system I agree with entirely. What I do agree with is the theory that each system is a part of of something greater that reveals itself as you progress. I don't know how this is done but it happens all the time...

Exactly. Like seeing Jesus Christ (in the afterlife)... The next step...

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Because of arrogance. Satan felt to be almost as equal to God. That is the temptation that satan puts to us, the same temptation that he fell,

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Because of arrogance. Satan felt to be almost as equal to God. That is the temptation that satan puts to us, the same temptation that he fell,

Satan/lucifer wanted to sit above god. But, no one can sit above god. As for god being male or female. He is male. But he is also married. So maybe mom visits us. The holy spirit is jusdt that a spirit. He voluntered to remain a spirit to help us choose the right path. But, if you don't listen, he will stop trying. Physical beings can only be in one place at a time. A spiritual one can be. Every where at the same time. God and jesus are physical beings. The beingthat jacob wrestled with was physical. So it wasn't jesus who was spirit at the time.

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I believe atlantis was the name of the world before the flood.

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As for god being male or female. He is male. But he is also married. So maybe mom visits us.

Since when is God married?

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Since when is God married?

Since when was it said he wasn't. It is a mormon belief.

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Since when was it said he wasn't. It is a mormon belief.

That explains it.

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