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danielost

why did satan get kicked out of heaven

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Posted (edited)

At the end of the day that is what matters.

I agree... :tu:

And others who know about it: the scholarly study of the Bible in its original languages:

Condemned by Catholics and Protestants alike, Michael Servetus was arrested in Geneva and burnt at the stake as a heretic by order of the Protestant Geneva governing council.

In his first two books (De trinitatis erroribus, and Dialogues on the Trinity plus the supplementary De Iustitia Regni Christi) Servetus rejected the classical conception of the Trinity, stating that it was not based on the Bible. He argued that it arose from teachings of Greek philosophers, and he advocated a return to the simplicity of the Gospels and the teachings of the early Church Fathers that he believed pre-dated the development of Nicene trinitarianism.

I don't know his works and what they contain but I do agree with his position in that we view the trinity incorrectly, as a matter of fact we can't even honestly claim Monotheism either... What we do have is something called Binatarian monotheism, but even that is not entirely correct

Maybe the best response is Binatarian Henotheism.

Which will shock many people who may read this but is true nonetheless. Yes there is an element of the Trinity involved since we continue to have a Deity that is Father, Son and Holy Spirit... it is merely that the classical interpretation is incorrect.

Yeah, over 10,000 years ago is where some of the information can be traced; I don't remember where I read that though.

Yes, I've heard the claim as well, the problem is that we can just as easily say 20.000 or even 30.000... without evidence it is hot air... Verifiably neither are over 4000 years old but Yahweh beats the other by 500 years or so. Although they are both based on the very same God, the God of the bible.

Some anthropologists hypothesize that the region was settled by multiple human migrations over tens of millennia, which makes it even harder to select certain groups as being truly aboriginal.

True, we can only go by the verifiable evidence. And they may all be from common stock since the ancient Sumerians were not Middle Eastern peoples... Since I do believe we are in fact all descended from Noah, then it isn't a problem for me either way.

The sources of the Indian knowledge go back to Atlantis like everything else, alledgedly, or for example they know that it took 40,000 years to map the sky(including astrological aspects). But then you are getting into the realm of secret societies with unbroken transmission beyond archaeological history.

Atlantis is merely a name for the Antedilluvian world, before the flood... or as the Vedas put it, the previous world civilization before ours.

Just to sum up: I didn't know that emanationists exist before today. Something has always struck me as false about Gnosticism so I don't go there. I don't really believe emanationism literally but I have experienced emanation yet that would not make me want to study kabala. I was able to spend some time recently in the amazing library of the Philosophical Research Society but I disagree with a certain percentage of MP Hall's teachings. I do not believe there is any system I agree with entirely. What I do agree with is the theory that each system is a part of of something greater that reveals itself as you progress. I don't know how this is done but it happens all the time and just when you think you've lost the thread knowledge continues in some form. They say if you talk about it you risk breaking the thread, but I say so what, let it break and see where that takes you...and so it continues.

Hmmm, in my case the broken thread led to Christ....

Edited by Jor-el

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"At the end of the day that is what matters."

I agree... :tu:

What about luciferianism? They believe in "...worshiping the inner self and one’s ultimate potential, as opposed to bowing to the rules of a supernatural entity." This goes for other mystical paths -- apotheosis. Their "sense" of their "God"/Self is the total opposite of Christian doctrine.

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Posted (edited)

They say if you talk about it you risk breaking the thread, but I say so what, let it break and see where that takes you...and so it continues.

That saying is actually one of the rules of my former lineage. The reasoning for that is to surrender all "earthly" distractions because they are all illusions. "God" (not the Christian God) or Self is the only real truth. "Awakening" is part of this doctrine. Also, to talk about one's experiences could even hinder or divert other's spiritual journey since one hasn't achieve that "enlightenment." Christianity is different because we have the Bible and Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit to guide us. When you become a "born again," you automatically become a saint, and this means that you are guaranteed passage to New Earth/Heaven/Paradise because your name is already written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Unlike luciferianism and mysticism you can never become a god, like Jesus/God -- we could never be equal to our Jesus/God. Edited by braveone2u

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"At the end of the day that is what matters."

What about luciferianism? They believe in "...worshiping the inner self and one’s ultimate potential, as opposed to bowing to the rules of a supernatural entity." This goes for other mystical paths -- apotheosis. Their "sense" of their "God"/Self is the total opposite of Christian doctrine.

True, and I believe that is the Litmus test on whether something is from God or not... from within comes not enlightenment but self delusion.

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Jesus christ equals selflessness.

Lucifer equals selfishness.

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"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God." Matthew 5:8

As a Christian, I believe we, human beings, are NOT geared to know or judge the purity of our hearts WITHOUT the grace of Jesus/God. Therefore, without this grace, we won't be able to see Jesus/God. To think otherwise would be like...getting kicked out of Heaven since Heaven is the abode of Jesus/God, and earth is a mere construct (in the process of being replaced by something better and eternal).

"For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have conducted ourselves in the world, and more abundantly toward you." 2 Corinthians 1:12

"For by grace are you saved through faith; and that NOT of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10

Unlike Christianity, mysticism is through one's efforts or will (and sometimes, with the blessings of one's ancient lineage that one is able to spiritually evolve faster than its usual course)...and eventually become a god.

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That may be true, but this kingdom is not Your Kingdom, you will never be truly Free as long as you remain a civilian in this kingdom.

You are an author? What is the name of the book, I would like to purchase it.

I disagree, opposites are delusions, duality is the Dance of Maya, it is illusion. There are no opposites there are polar extremes of the same thing. Darkness is not the opposite of Light, Darkness is the Womb that gives birth and enables Light to exist.

I'm not the author , sorry if it sounded that way, I didn't mean for it to. It's just a paperback book that I've purchased .The title is: The Eighth Chakra .The authors name is Jude Currivan PhD...

The kingdom of Heaven reply was meant as that which is within us , not dogmatic at all. I agree with pretty much all of what you've said in this reply.It's the way i understand things too...

Darkness comes from the mind , knowledge is light . It's like the term " let there be light" ( or) "out of darkness comes light" . I recall that you mentioned you do not accept the theory of duality at all, I respect that. I get what you're saying.Also, it seems to me that what you said regarding duality (or) polar opposites, and that which is in the book I'm reading are of the same understanding, at least to me it seems so...

But like i tried to explain , it's tricky . How do we know for certain that, if someone extremely benevolent most likely will transform or become malevolent .I've heard the string theory approach to this from both sides that offer completely different theories...

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I do not like universalism, it dilutes the Word of God... if God was a universalist in the message he gave us, he would not have commanded us to preach the Gospel to the ends of the world... since each religion would be that societies truth as God revealed it to them... sorry doesn't make sense.

Jor-el, hi. I'm not sure of what you mean , what doesn't make sense for you ? that the Spirit that exist within the universe ,of what I refer to as the creator is universal ? I don't believe i need anyone to tell me that in any text, it's just that for me it's apparent , it's obvious in nature that it is universal... .

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Hi Reann,

Here's a fascinating video I found on Youtube that you may want to see since you're interested in cultural branches and Christian diversity:

God bless.

Thanks. I don't really believe that the ark of the covenant exist. I've wondered though, what did Moses exactly take from out of Egypt ?

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I've wondered though, what did Moses exactly take from out of Egypt ?

I think this is what you're asking: "And Joseph said to his brothers, I die: and God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land to the land which he swore to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob. And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and you shall carry up my bones from hence. So Joseph died, being an hundred and ten years old: and they embalmed him, and he was put in a coffin in Egypt." Gen 50:24-26

Peace.

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No , no, not at all. That's not what I questioned. I wondered what did Moses take when he left there? What did he do before he left? and i don't mean the story about the wrath of God or the plagues upon Egypt as told in - I think Exodus....

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Writing down the name of God on a piece of paper and flinging it into the Nile...?

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Posted (edited)

No , no, not at all. That's not what I questioned. I wondered what did Moses take when he left there? What did he do before he left? and i don't mean the story about the wrath of God or the plagues upon Egypt as told in - I think Exodus....

Hi Reann,

My previous post was my answer to your question, I'm not sure if you got it. Moses wrote down the name of God... At any rate, it's one of the legends about Joseph's coffin...

Peace.

Edited by braveone2u

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I'm not the author , sorry if it sounded that way, I didn't mean for it to. It's just a paperback book that I've purchased .The title is: The Eighth Chakra .The authors name is Jude Currivan PhD...

The kingdom of Heaven reply was meant as that which is within us , not dogmatic at all. I agree with pretty much all of what you've said in this reply.It's the way i understand things too...

Darkness comes from the mind , knowledge is light . It's like the term " let there be light" ( or) "out of darkness comes light" . I recall that you mentioned you do not accept the theory of duality at all, I respect that. I get what you're saying.Also, it seems to me that what you said regarding duality (or) polar opposites, and that which is in the book I'm reading are of the same understanding, at least to me it seems so...

But like i tried to explain , it's tricky . How do we know for certain that, if someone extremely benevolent most likely will transform or become malevolent .I've heard the string theory approach to this from both sides that offer completely different theories...

I will check the book out, thanks.

even though I have my beliefs about non=duality, I do realize that we all exist physically in a duality-based universe and we must all adhere to its limitations.

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Thanks. I don't really believe that the ark of the covenant exist. I've wondered though, what did Moses exactly take from out of Egypt ?

He/they took livestock food and riches.

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Jor-el, hi. I'm not sure of what you mean , what doesn't make sense for you ? that the Spirit that exist within the universe ,of what I refer to as the creator is universal ? I don't believe i need anyone to tell me that in any text, it's just that for me it's apparent , it's obvious in nature that it is universal... .

What doesn't make sense is that Jesus Christ specifically told us the believers whom we call Christians to preach the Gospel to the entire world... why did he do that if there is truth in every religion, which is what you were stating?

"I've personally come to the realization that the creator is also revealed in other cultures of religions that may seem foreign to others, but that it too is the creator they acknowledge ...I think so because , I think that all religions lead to the same purpose, like branches of the same tree, you know? all waters meet..."

I seriously disagree with the above statement of yours. The religions of the world may have and probably do have a common root, in other words they all are derived from an original belief system common to humanity at some time in the past.

They all worshipped the one true God but as they drifted away from his worship and chose to worship other things, their beliefs changed and were corrupted over time. God with the bible has brought us the chance to worship and know him yet again. That is why I stated that other religions may have truth, but do not have "TheTruth", only the bible has that.

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father but through Him.

That is what he has told us Christians to preach... it would not be necessary if the other religions were an option.

As for universalism, that has two meanings depending on the context, (1) that all religions are acceptable in the eyes of God, which is false if the words I quoted are anything to go by and (2) That God is in all religions... also false since the religions of the world do not glorify God but rather glorify the "sons of God", whom God gave humanity to in their apostasy, keeping only Israel for himself.

I would like you to explain to me please how you conceive God in your mind, Is he part of the universe? or external to the universe? is God in creation or a part of creation or is he the author of creation but apart from it?

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Let's not forget that god tolg abraham, isiac and jocab not to cross breed with the local 'population. This isn't white marring blacks. It is catholics marring muslums.

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Writing down the name of God on a piece of paper and flinging it into the Nile...?

No not that. I don't recall that part of the story . I think that it's told in the bible that Moses and the Israeli's had gathered up gold and silver from the Egyptians as they were fleeing Egypt ,as if the Egyptians gave their gold and silver willingly to them. I don't know for certain that they gave them anything willingly is what I am questioning.... I think that it's possible , that the reason why the Pharaoh went after them with his army, was because he was angry when he discovered what they had done to neighboring people . I think that it's possible that the Israeli's robbed them of their gold and silver...

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I will check the book out, thanks.

even though I have my beliefs about non=duality, I do realize that we all exist physically in a duality-based universe and we must all adhere to its limitations.

You're welcome....I think it's all very deep , duality and non duality... I think it's sort of tricky , same as the nature of quantum mechanics can be , because the rules change...

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I would like you to explain to me please how you conceive God in your mind, Is he part of the universe? or external to the universe? is God in creation or a part of creation or is he the author of creation but apart from it?

Well, of my own perception, God is the "Mind of all Nature" , and is always watching , always aware , by it's own nature ..

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No not that. I don't recall that part of the story . I think that it's told in the bible that Moses and the Israeli's had gathered up gold and silver from the Egyptians as they were fleeing Egypt ,as if the Egyptians gave their gold and silver willingly to them. I don't know for certain that they gave them anything willingly is what I am questioning.... I think that it's possible , that the reason why the Pharaoh went after them with his army, was because he was angry when he discovered what they had done to neighboring people . I think that it's possible that the Israeli's robbed them of their gold and silver...

You're talking about Exodus 12:36, but the King James doesn't use the word "plundered," but instead, the word is "spoiled." I'm sure you've heard, "To the victor go the spoils."

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What I want to know is: Why did the Flying Spaghetti Monster got kicked out of Russels Teapot?

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Well, of my own perception, God is the "Mind of all Nature" , and is always watching , always aware , by it's own nature ..

Thus in your view God is inextricably linked to nature?

To me that is not God.... if God created nature in that he created the universe and everything in it (nature being a part of it), then God would have, of neccessity created himself as well...

No, one is an artifact, the other the creator of the artifact. You can build a house but you are not that house or even a part of it... that is what an artifact means...

What I want to know is: Why did the Flying Spaghetti Monster got kicked out of Russels Teapot?

He didn't pay the bills.

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Thus in your view God is inextricably linked to nature?

To me that is not God.... if God created nature in that he created the universe and everything in it (nature being a part of it), then God would have, of neccessity created himself as well...

I gotta go with Reann here, what the principles, laws, and processes of the natural Universe is, those are what Mankind has assigned to Become God, not the other way around.
No, one is an artifact, the other the creator of the artifact. You can build a house but you are not that house or even a part of it... that is what an artifact means...

A house is simply a geometrically-coordinated, gravitationally-braced and weatherproof arrangement of certain kinds of molecules. As various individuals design, decorate, occupy, or view the house, however, it is imbued with characteristics assigned to it by them. It now exists in their several subjective universes, and it may continue to exist there even after the 'objective' house has been demolished. None of this necessitates a god in order for it to happen.

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Posted (edited)

I gotta go with Reann here, what the principles, laws, and processes of the natural Universe is, those are what Mankind has assigned to Become God, not the other way around.

Within the perspective of what we know God to be, He would by neccesity be outside of the natural universe, since to be within it, implies by our very basic understanding, a subservience to the very laws that govern it. God is not limited by the laws of nature, by the very characteristic of being God. Otherwise he would be something... but he would not be God.

To create the universe he would by logical neccesity also need to be outside its boundries... I think it is basic thought being applied here.. ie, it isn't hard to figure out.

A house is simply a geometrically-coordinated, gravitationally-braced and weatherproof arrangement of certain kinds of molecules. As various individuals design, decorate, occupy, or view the house, however, it is imbued with characteristics assigned to it by them. It now exists in their several subjective universes, and it may continue to exist there even after the 'objective' house has been demolished. None of this necessitates a god in order for it to happen.

If you build, it still isn't you. You can use, it abandon it, revamp it, do what you want with it, but it still isn't you... You cannot extend yourself to it. Your character can be displayed within it by people seeing how you decorate it, but all in all it will never be you or a part of you.

Edited by Jor-el

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