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danielost

why did satan get kicked out of heaven

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22] And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end

http://www.bookofmormononline.org/nephi2.html

I am sharing this because of another thread.

2nd nephi chapter 2

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God would be limited to the rules of this universe, if he interacts with it. Of course we don't know what all those rules are.

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Within the perspective of what we know God to be, He would by neccesity be outside of the natural universe, since to be within it, implies by our very basic understanding, a subservience to the very laws that govern it. God is not limited by the laws of nature, by the very characteristic of being God. Otherwise he would be something... but he would not be God.

Here lies THE biggest problem here, that you nor anyone else knows anything about this god, you either go by a book written by Man, or by what you 'feel' in your heart, which is probably due to reading the same book written by Man. At no time has this god laid down the "Law" for all to see and for none to ignore.
To create the universe he would by logical neccesity also need to be outside its boundries... I think it is basic thought being applied here.. ie, it isn't hard to figure out.
Agreed, this is a toughy to wrap the brain around
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Here lies THE biggest problem here, that you nor anyone else knows anything about this god, you either go by a book written by Man, or by what you 'feel' in your heart, which is probably due to reading the same book written by Man. At no time has this god laid down the "Law" for all to see and for none to ignore.

Agreed, this is a toughy to wrap the brain around

Oh he has, a number of times... the latest version is known as the bible.

You can claim it is written by man, and it was, their hand that penned it for sure, but behind that hand it was God inspiring them and directing them even dictating to them.

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Oh he has, a number of times... the latest version is known as the bible.

I believe that was part of my point
You can claim it is written by man, and it was, their hand that penned it for sure, but behind that hand it was God inspiring them and directing them even dictating to them.
Just as you can "claim" it was directed/dictated by a god.

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I believe that was part of my point

Just as you can "claim" it was directed/dictated by a god.

Of course, that is the quagmire of this debate, no-one has evidence of such things either way.. if we did it wouldn't be contested naturally.

All I can give is my position which has been amply debated. That being said, there are indeed a number of things we can state about God, if we ignore the scriptures as a whole.

One is that God created the universe and us along with it, Two, that God does seem to be leading us somewhere and that we are all playing a part in that grand scheme of his. Three that the ultimate purpose of such a plan is for our benefit even if it does not immediately seem to be apparant what that benefit is.

Many people talk of control and us being marionettes or that he wants slaves or some such parallel idea, but it seems to me that if this were indeed the case, God would not have to go to such extremes as, illusion of free will, the lack of clear evidence of his existence among other well known arguments... he could cut to the chase and make us do what he wanted... no inconvenience on his part to do so in any way.

Why the run around then if that was or is Gods intent?

The only logical answer is that such is not hius intent and that something else is in order, hence my initial position.

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Of course, that is the quagmire of this debate, no-one has evidence of such things either way.. if we did it wouldn't be contested naturally.

All I can give is my position which has been amply debated. That being said, there are indeed a number of things we can state about God, if we ignore the scriptures as a whole.

One is that God created the universe and us along with it, Two, that God does seem to be leading us somewhere and that we are all playing a part in that grand scheme of his. Three that the ultimate purpose of such a plan is for our benefit even if it does not immediately seem to be apparant what that benefit is.

Without scripture to guide you, how did you arrive at these ideas?
Many people talk of control and us being marionettes or that he wants slaves or some such parallel idea, but it seems to me that if this were indeed the case, God would not have to go to such extremes as, illusion of free will, the lack of clear evidence of his existence among other well known arguments... he could cut to the chase and make us do what he wanted... no inconvenience on his part to do so in any way.

Why the run around then if that was or is Gods intent?

The only logical answer is that such is not hius intent and that something else is in order, hence my initial position.

Ah yes, the old . . . "since I can't comprehend certain things, then these things MUST be the work of god and He works in 'mysterious ways'

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Without scripture to guide you, how did you arrive at these ideas?

Ah yes, the old . . . "since I can't comprehend certain things, then these things MUST be the work of god and He works in 'mysterious ways'

That is better than the new saying. If I can't comperhind it, it was an accident.

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Posted (edited)

Without scripture to guide you, how did you arrive at these ideas?

Ah yes, the old . . . "since I can't comprehend certain things, then these things MUST be the work of god and He works in 'mysterious ways'

Hi Etu Malku,

Here's my side of the story:

Since I've already seen Jesus Christ, I can now afford to believe that other people in the Bible saw Him, conversed with the Father, wrote about Them, etc. Therefore, I'm working backwards to better understand His life, why He's the Messiah. From seeing to learning Jesus' story, it's the reverse, compared to what most Christians go through. I'm using the Bible because it's the only ANCIENT book that actually tells the world Jesus Christ is God, "uncreated" -- no other book tells His supreme nature like it is -- and All Powerful's the way I understood Him in the afterlife. He's NO minor god.

On the other hand, Jesus never gave me a message to share to the world. There's nothing special about me (psychically speaking), no supernatural powers and so on. I'm no prophet, either. One could either ignore my story, or get inspired by it. I'm completely unattached. Not entirely, I enjoy sharing my thoughts and hearing other people's POV...

I understand why people have a hard time with Bible. Thing is, just seeing Jesus Christ is NOT a guarantee of total conversion. The story of the Exodus is a good example of that, as in the Golden Calf, and also Judas. So yes, one has to accept Him in one's heart. Catch 22? In the end, it's by grace alone; however, Revelation 3:20 tells us: "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

Perhaps I've also been broken down by life enough to appreciate the initial contact, the personal experience... The rest is history.

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound

That sav’d a wretch like me!

I once was lost, but now am found,

Was blind, but now I see.

’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,

And grace my fears reliev’d;

How precious did that grace appear,

The hour I first believ’d!

Thro’ many dangers, toils and snares,

I have already come;

’Tis grace has brought me safe thus far,

And grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promis’d good to me,

His word my hope secures;

He will my shield and portion be,

As long as life endures.

Yes, when this flesh and heart shall fail,

And mortal life shall cease;

I shall possess, within the veil,

A life of joy and peace.

The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,

The sun forbear to shine;

But God, who call’d me here below,

Will be forever mine.

Just sharing.

Edited by braveone2u

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If we were/are puppets and god the puppet master, why is there so much meseary on the planet. A puppet does not have a choice but to do what the puppet master says.

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Posted (edited)

If we were/are puppets and god the puppet master, why is there so much meseary on the planet. A puppet does not have a choice but to do what the puppet master says.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." - Isaiah 45:7

Edited by Arpee
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And. No strings attached.

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Hi Etu Malku,

Here's my side of the story:

Since I've already seen Jesus Christ,

Really? Like at the supermarket or the bar? You do realize that because of such an insane claim I'm going to find it difficult to read through the rest here with any sort of seriousness?
I can now afford to believe that other people in the Bible saw Him, conversed with the Father, wrote about Them, etc. Therefore, I'm working backwards to better understand His life, why He's the Messiah. From seeing to learning Jesus' story, it's the reverse, compared to what most Christians go through. I'm using the Bible because it's the only ANCIENT book that actually tells the world Jesus Christ is God, "uncreated" -- no other book tells His supreme nature like it is -- and All Powerful's the way I understood Him in the afterlife. He's NO minor god.
Well, there's a reason why other books don't . . . the Christian bible (not really that ancient by the way) has the copyright to this Christ/Messiah fable.
On the other hand, Jesus never gave me a message to share to the world. There's nothing special about me (psychically speaking), no supernatural powers and so on. I'm no prophet, either. One could either ignore my story, or get inspired by it. I'm completely unattached. Not entirely, I enjoy sharing my thoughts and hearing other people's POV...
Bummer, he could have at least gave you an autograph so that the rest of the world doesn't think your bonkers :P . . . he never could get with the program though
I understand why people have a hard time with Bible. Thing is, just seeing Jesus Christ is NOT a guarantee of total conversion. The story of the Exodus is a good example of that, as in the Golden Calf, and also Judas. So yes, one has to accept Him in one's heart. Catch 22? In the end, it's by grace alone; however, Revelation 3:20 tells us: "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."
I don't know about other people, but I have a problem with the Christian bible because I don't believe it is what it claims to be. By "accept Him in one's heart" do you mean convince yourself that he exists and that this entire story is true?

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound

That sav’d a wretch like me!

I once was lost, but now am found,

Was blind, but now I see.

’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,

And grace my fears reliev’d;

How precious did that grace appear,

The hour I first believ’d!

Thro’ many dangers, toils and snares,

I have already come;

’Tis grace has brought me safe thus far,

And grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promis’d good to me,

His word my hope secures;

He will my shield and portion be,

As long as life endures.

Yes, when this flesh and heart shall fail,

And mortal life shall cease;

I shall possess, within the veil,

A life of joy and peace.

The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,

The sun forbear to shine;

But God, who call’d me here below,

Will be forever mine.

Just sharing.

People -- what have you done --

Locked Him in His golden cage.

Made Him bend to your religion --

Him resurrected from the grave.

He is the god of nothing --

If that's all that you can see.

You are the god of everything --

He's inside you and me.

So lean upon Him gently

And don't call on Him to save you

From your social graces

And the sins you used to waive.

The bloody Church of England --

In chains of history --

Requests your earthly presence at

The vicarage for tea.

And the graven image you-know-who --

With His plastic crucifix --

He's got him fixed --

Confuses me as to who and where and why --

As to how he gets his kicks.

Confessing to the endless sin --

The endless whining sounds.

You'll be praying till next Thursday to

All the gods that you can count.

Just sharing too! :innocent:

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First christ is not god.

Second the book of mormon talks about christ when he came to america.

Three I am sure there are other books not in the bible that talks about christ. Just because w haven't seen them doesn't mean tgey don't exist.

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Without scripture to guide you, how did you arrive at these ideas?

I arrived at thise ideas due to my personal encounter with God, but logic also gets us there. Since by definition God would be the creator then he would also have created the universe. As such he had intent in doing so, so he must have had a plan in his creation. I don't see anything capable of ruining that plan so but extension, that plan will be fullfilled one way or another. Since I am in this created universe, than I must also be a part of that plan, (I say I but I mean humanity in general here), and that plan must include something that allows me to want to be a part of that plan.

Ah yes, the old . . . "since I can't comprehend certain things, then these things MUST be the work of god and He works in 'mysterious ways'

Of course not, we can comprehend alot of things and many that we do not comprehend don't neccessarily have to be God, but neither can we simply exclude him because of our particular preference.

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Posted (edited)

Never mind. Delete.

Edited by WoIverine

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Posted (edited)

Really? Like at the supermarket or the bar? You do realize that because of such an insane claim I'm going to find it difficult to read through the rest here with any sort of seriousness?

Insane is as insane does, never judge a book by its cover. At any rate, I've already shared my encounter with Jesus Christ. You just have to look for my past posts if you're really interested; however, you may want to review the things you wrote, regarding seriousness, before you brush people off.

Well, there's a reason why other books don't . . . the Christian bible (not really that ancient by the way) has the copyright to this Christ/Messiah fable.

Bummer, he could have at least gave you an autograph so that the rest of the world doesn't think your bonkers :P . . . he never could get with the program though

Wrong. The people behind the Holy Bible knew the "truth." It's your word against theirs, the ones who actually experienced the Lord. Like I said, since I've already seen Jesus Christ, I can now afford to believe their testimonies. On the other hand, you don't really want to know Him; otherwise, you would have the decency to refrain yourself from poking fun at Him. It's hardly the language of diplomacy and interest...or even wittiness, for that matter. "Seriousness," you say?

By "accept Him in one's heart" do you mean convince yourself that he exists and that this entire story is true?

There are those who have that disposition. I had to go through the harsh way in order for me to appreciate His story and accept Him as my Lord and Savior. You see, I was sort of like you (without the snide undertone) because I was so wrapped up in my "mystical" world. But, to each his own. In the end, it was up to Jesus to grant me the needed Grace in my heart to become a Christian, "born again." Edited by braveone2u

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"...Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" Mat 16:26

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You see, I was sort of like you (without the snide undertone) because I was so wrapped up in my "mystical" world. But, to each his own. In the end, it was up to Jesus to grant me the needed Grace in my heart to become a Christian, "born again."
Trust me you have never been like me, I am 52 and have known my Path since I was 8. You are entitled to your paradigm, we all are.

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Posted (edited)

Trust me you have never been like me,

Nor would I want to, no offense. Again, to each his own. It's the reason why I said, sort of...because I know the uniqueness of a human being, in spite of his or her eagerness (sometimes to the point of obsession) to emulate other personalities. I am, after all, a corporate marketer -- a propagandist to some. Yes, we are always entitled to follow our heart's sincere desire, regardless of the consequences, even if we are not aware of doing it.

Peace.

Edited by braveone2u

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Trust me you have never been like me, I am 52 and have known my Path since I was 8. You are entitled to your paradigm, we all are.

That seems like a rare class of human beings: those who know exactly what they want to do when they are kids then have the ability to do it. Then you have the seekers, dreamers, and more mundane types, if people can be classified like that. The problem with the dreamers is they don't necessarily have the ability, like Satan knowing he wants to surpass God and then just gets thrown out of that realm. So then Satan got kicked out of heaven because he was just a dreamer.

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Posted (edited)

No, not a dreamer. There are many who do but fail. Satan is one of these. In his case he is so mad at failing he wants to take everyone else with him. He almost succeded at that.

Edited by danielost

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No, not a dreamer. There are many who do but fail. Satan is one of these. In his case he is so mad at failing he wants to take everyone else with him. He almost succeded at that.

What do you mean not a dreamer; that's the whole point: Satan wanted something he could never be: surpassing an infinitely transcending God? Fail. You have to remember he was not evil at that point, then became something like an abyss permeated with evil. That's some scary...oh nevermind.

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That seems like a rare class of human beings: those who know exactly what they want to do when they are kids then have the ability to do it. Then you have the seekers, dreamers, and more mundane types, if people can be classified like that. The problem with the dreamers is they don't necessarily have the ability, like Satan knowing he wants to surpass God and then just gets thrown out of that realm. So then Satan got kicked out of heaven because he was just a dreamer.

No, not a dreamer. There are many who do but fail. Satan is one of these. In his case he is so mad at failing he wants to take everyone else with him. He almost succeded at that.

What do you mean not a dreamer; that's the whole point: Satan wanted something he could never be: surpassing an infinitely transcending God? Fail. You have to remember he was not evil at that point, then became something like an abyss permeated with evil. That's some scary...oh nevermind.

Gentlemen, gentlemen . . . the devil fell away from god of his own free will, in this respect it proves that evil was in the world before man and that the devil already had a 'mutilated' soul . . . but who would we hold accountable for this other than his Maker, god?

The myth of the Fall originates in The Book of Enoch, and is outside of the Canon. Yet by the time the New Testament was compiled the influence of Enoch had been absorbed, along with elements of the Persian Zoroastrian religion, Judea being under Persian rule from the 6th to 4th centuries B.C. In their cosmology there are two principles of Ahura Mazda, being creative, and Ahriman, being destructive. So evenly matched are they that the slightest flux can topple the balance, and mortal-kind are constantly being drawn to one side or the other. Originally the Devil was the shadow side of God, His dark aspect.

As the Hebrew religion evolved, so did this „shadow‟, until it broke away from God and became a separate power having its own free Will. However, with this separation came the natural dualistic attribution of God‟s other characteristics, so that the Shadow also becomes His destructive and malign aspect, whilst the Light becomes everything good.

Weak, decadent, and sick people, whose will to power has declined, will give themselves a God who is purely good, according to Nietzsche.

The "Fall" should be understood as the Spirit descended to Flesh. The vision of a cosmic struggle, forces of good contending against forces of evil, derived originally from Jewish apocalyptic sources and developed by sectarian groups like the Essenes as they struggled against the forces they saw against them. God asks all the angels in heaven to bow before Adam, the new creation. Satan refuses to bow, believing obedience to humans to be idolatry against God, and is swiftly cast out of heaven for his disobedience. This is an example of self-sacrificing love, agape, martyr. But instead of sacrificing material for spiritual fulfillment, he sacrifices spirit for spirit.

Carl Jung saw the myth of figures such as the Lucifer/Satan archetype as expressing "the shortcomings of the world as conceived by the human soul." Lucifer/Satan "stands as the prototype of human civilizing effort."

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So the devil was God's Shadow side?

Don't they say we all have a Shadow Self?

maybe we all have a little Devil in us then :)

and no the Devil didn't make you do it... it's was YOU who choose to do it!

I can't believe people blame a monster with horns for things THEY did.

thanks

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