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Avatar Samantha Ai

Pope Francis: Atheists can also go to heaven!

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I for one hope you do have kids one day, as a veteran parent what stands out about you for me is the thought you put into things. I like how you really think about everything not just from your pov but what really is best, you show such a humbleness, shadow. And IMO good parenting begins with humbleness. oy vey, I still find ways to be better and grow and learn and my youngest is soon to be 16. For what ever it is worth you would be a great father kiddo. :tu:

Aww really? Thanks, that means a lot coming from you :)

Yeah, I've heard from other parents that kid are a real learning experience. Just when you think you know everything, bam something else comes along.

Well I hope your kids know how lucky they are to have someone like you as their mother, because I'd be sure proud if you were mine :)

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Posted (edited)

In my opinion, go around the corner from the Opera House, visit the Botanic Gardens, much more beautiful. The Opera House seems to be the primary tourist spot for non-Aussies. Maybe I just take it for granted because I've seen it a million times (in High School I participated in the Winter Sleepout and camped out for a night at the foot of the Opera House), but the Botanic Gardens are simply gorgeous. They don't get anywhere near the tourist Press I think they deserve.

Theme parks - we have Luna Park. And there are plans of building a Wet-n-wild in Penrith (about an hour West of Sydney central). Other than that all the great theme parks are up in Queensland (Warner Brothers Movie World, Dream World, Sea World, another Wet-n-Wild). We used to have Australia's Wonderland but it closed down nearly 10 years ago.

If Becky's in for science museums, the best I can think of is probably the Powerhouse Museum. She'd love it there.

I checked those out earlier today PA, those look great..My kids would enjoy them and as would we lol.. Been to Sea World a few times it is magic..The WB movie land is pretty much like Islands of Adventure at Universal Studios Florida.I liked the look of the Superman roller coaster and my kids are fans of Looney Toons..... While I was checking out the pages you posted, I had a bit more time and managed to find so much more in Sydney to go and see.. I came across another great theme park - Dreamworld.. It has the Tower Of Terror, I think Disney has that also.. My daughter saw it advertised on TV she is itching to go on it..It looks too scary for me !!!.....The hotels look great too..Plenty of activities that can take up a lot of time, but time worth spending.. I would also love to go and do a lot of sight seeing in Australia too. even go on a camping trip.....It would be great to spend a month or so there...

Thanks for the links PA

Edited by Beckys_Mom

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My children will get along with everyone (yes, that's a rosy view, but it's been my experience that people who grow up in Sunday School together are friends all the way through High School and beyond).

Yeah, that is a rosy view. Just because people are put together in a situation does not mean they'll all get on. The same is true of children.

If they ask my son or daughter why they weren't at Sunday School, they'll just say "dad won't let me". And all the while the kids will then up and tell my child what they did anyway, what they learned, and whether they had fun. I wonder, if after hearing about fun and games, would my son ASK me if they could go? Would I be morally wrong to say no to them if that happened, just because they were young and impressionable?

Well that creates a situation doesn't it? Say Jimmy hears from David (giving the kid a name to make this easier) about what they did at sunday school and asks to go: but to the one David went to and David went to a different church to you, what would you say then? It just creates the same situation.

Or what if you took Jimmy to your sunday school and then he heard from David about his sunday school and it sounded better to him to the one you've forced him to go to?

And why can't I have both? Why are you making it out like I'm choosing one over the other? To quote Mother Superior from The Sound of Music - "just because you love this man doesn't mean you love God less".

I'm not saying you can't have both. What I am saying is that when you have a child, you priorities would shift towards that child because of parental instinct.

I'd probably encourage you to bring your child. I wouldn't oust you from the church, but I would not feel like you were doing what is in the best interest of the child. But as already discussed, we've been over that (I believe it's the right thing to do, you do not). And no, I wouldn't hold it against someone if they couldn't make Bible Study. I'm just saying it's a good thing to do, I didn't state it as a requirement for being Christian.

And I'd say pretty much what I've said before: I want my child to choose their religion, not for me to choose it for them and that I won't bring them unless they make the choice themselves. hat, to me, is what's in the best interest of my child.

Ahh, extreme examples. Let's be honest. Most people aren't bedridden. Most people aren't incapacitated by Alzheimer's. Most people aren't in isolated research laboratories. I'm simply saying that if a person can go, and chooses not to, and chooses not to on a regular basis, they aren't honouring the words of Hebrews 10:25. This casts doubt on their commitment to Jesus' teachings. Therefore, they may be saved, but when they might just get a shock if Jesus decides to say "begone from me evildoer, I never knew you".

Extreme examples can be very good at illustrating the point.

So I'd be evil because I decided not to go to church regularly enough for him? Wow, jesus sure is touchy. If you 'encouraged' me to bring my child by using a line like that, I'd walk out the church and never come back. Iif you'd consider me evil in jesus eyes because of my focus on my child, than I'd not want to be in an environment with you and it woud pretty much illustrate why I'd not bring my child. If jesus is going to be that petty, than I'd severely question why I'd follow him.

To be honest pa, it's lines like that just pushes e further away from christianity as a belief.

They're in Sunday School for all of 40 minutes (they are with us for the beginning of service, then when the sermon starts they go over to the other building an come back just before the end of the service). Then the rest of the day they spend with family and/or friends. That's quality time right there if you're out in the lot playing games with your child.

I dunno. The whole thing makes me incredibly uneasy pa. I just don't see how mixing children and religion is a good idea.

Honestly, I've wanted children for years, so I just hope that my future partner feels the same way, otherwise it will be a major issue. My reasons for wanting kids are admittedly selfish, my belief that God wants us to procreate doesn't really bear on my choice, it's just an added point.

Honestly, I hope you do find someone someday. The best parents are those that really want a child and, aside from the questionable amount you want religion in their lives, I'm sure you'd be a good father and I do hope you have that chance someday. And hey, you till have plenty of time to do so, so who knows? Maybe you will sooner than you think.

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Yeah, that is a rosy view. Just because people are put together in a situation does not mean they'll all get on. The same is true of children.

Still, I think they'll get along (as I said, that's been my experience of Sunday Schools in the two churches I've been regularly involved in).

Well that creates a situation doesn't it? Say Jimmy hears from David (giving the kid a name to make this easier) about what they did at sunday school and asks to go: but to the one David went to and David went to a different church to you, what would you say then? It just creates the same situation.

Or what if you took Jimmy to your sunday school and then he heard from David about his sunday school and it sounded better to him to the one you've forced him to go to?

If the Sunday School was in a different church to the one I went to, as long as they taught theologically sound doctrine I'd seriously consider letting them go to that Sunday School if it was a better fit for them.

I'm not saying you can't have both. What I am saying is that when you have a child, you priorities would shift towards that child because of parental instinct.

Ah, ok. In that case, I agree :yes:

And I'd say pretty much what I've said before: I want my child to choose their religion, not for me to choose it for them and that I won't bring them unless they make the choice themselves. hat, to me, is what's in the best interest of my child.

I know you would, it wouldn't stop me from suggesting it nonetheless. I wouldn't harp on about it, but I wouldn't ignore it, either.

Extreme examples can be very good at illustrating the point.

They also represent that which is outside the norm and does not refer to the vast majority of people who simply choose to not go to church because they couldn't be buggered.

So I'd be evil because I decided not to go to church regularly enough for him? Wow, jesus sure is touchy. If you 'encouraged' me to bring my child by using a line like that, I'd walk out the church and never come back. Iif you'd consider me evil in jesus eyes because of my focus on my child, than I'd not want to be in an environment with you and it woud pretty much illustrate why I'd not bring my child. If jesus is going to be that petty, than I'd severely question why I'd follow him.

To be honest pa, it's lines like that just pushes e further away from christianity as a belief.

Why would I encourage you to bring your child to church by calling you an evildoer if you did not? There are less inflammatory ways to get my point across. Putting it that way would simply alienate you further. I was referring to Jesus' stance at Judgement, if a person is only paying lip service to God and not truly following his commands Jesus may very well brand him a hypocrite and put him with the "evildoers". I'm not saying he will, I'm saying it's possible. A decision not to go to church regularly could be construed as a stance of apathy towards God in general, and that may be a sign of further things.

At the end of the day I am unable to judge someone (anyone) on their salvation. Only God can do that. Especially if they claim to believe, I can't automatically read their minds and see what they're thinking and believing and doing in their own world.

Honestly, I hope you do find someone someday. The best parents are those that really want a child and, aside from the questionable amount you want religion in their lives, I'm sure you'd be a good father and I do hope you have that chance someday. And hey, you till have plenty of time to do so, so who knows? Maybe you will sooner than you think.

So do I. It's hard at the moment because of a few factors (not least of which I'm currently in the middle of moving out of Sydney - I'll be in a small country town with a primarily white population, so that might be an interesting learning curve in the context of our discussion).

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Still, I think they'll get along (as I said, that's been my experience of Sunday Schools in the two churches I've been regularly involved in).

I guess that's true optimism.

If the Sunday School was in a different church to the one I went to, as long as they taught theologically sound doctrine I'd seriously consider letting them go to that Sunday School if it was a better fit for them.

And if the doctrine was more liberal?

Ah, ok. In that case, I agree :yes:

I guess I waas alittle unclear, glad you can see that now

I know you would, it wouldn't stop me from suggesting it nonetheless. I wouldn't harp on about it, but I wouldn't ignore it, either.

As long as you suggested it once and not again, fine. If you kept making it an issie, well.

They also represent that which is outside the norm and does not refer to the vast majority of people who simply choose to not go to church because they couldn't be buggered.

Well we don't always have the benefit of being part of 'the norm'.

Why would I encourage you to bring your child to church by calling you an evildoer if you did not? There are less inflammatory ways to get my point across. Putting it that way would simply alienate you further. I was referring to Jesus' stance at Judgement, if a person is only paying lip service to God and not truly following his commands Jesus may very well brand him a hypocrite and put him with the "evildoers". I'm not saying he will, I'm saying it's possible. A decision not to go to church regularly could be construed as a stance of apathy towards God in general, and that may be a sign of further things.

You're right, it would alienate me further and so would serve to be counter productive to your intention.

Would I be paying 'lip service' absolutely not. I'd be going and meaning it, but I'd also be placing a value on my child. I'd want them to accept jesus message on their own, not because I said so. After all, isn't that making the child pay lip service to god?

If god would view my lack of attendance as apathy he'd be wrong. But then since god would know my heart better than you would he'd see that wouldn't he?

At the end of the day I am unable to judge someone (anyone) on their salvation. Only God can do that. Especially if they claim to believe, I can't automatically read their minds and see what they're thinking and believing and doing in their own world.

Exactly. Like I said above, god ccould see that what I was doing was not apathy, but out of repect for my child and the right of my child.

So do I. It's hard at the moment because of a few factors (not least of which I'm currently in the middle of moving out of Sydney - I'll be in a small country town with a primarily white population, so that might be an interesting learning curve in the context of our discussion).

Well who knows, maybe you'll meet someone there that you'd never have met where you are. (And good luck with the move. Moving is a very stressful buisness and I hope it's not too stressfully for you.)

(Though in the context of our discussion I hope you do try and deal with any issue you find in a place like that and make such you keep that acceptence don't let the experience erode it.)

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I guess that's true optimism.

Indeedly-doo, I am an optimist at heart.

And if the doctrine was more liberal?

I won't teach my children that liberalism is fine for Christians, and therefore would not allow it. I would hope that my own church had a Sunday School curriculum that was fun and engaging to the point that another Sunday School that taught false teachings would not be more appealing.

Well we don't always have the benefit of being part of 'the norm'.

Indeed that is true, those exceptions to the rule need to be treated differently (after all, fairness is not treating everyone equally, but rather by giving people what they need ~ a quote from my a video I saw at university about Inclusive Education).

You're right, it would alienate me further and so would serve to be counter productive to your intention.

Would I be paying 'lip service' absolutely not. I'd be going and meaning it, but I'd also be placing a value on my child. I'd want them to accept jesus message on their own, not because I said so. After all, isn't that making the child pay lip service to god?

If god would view my lack of attendance as apathy he'd be wrong. But then since god would know my heart better than you would he'd see that wouldn't he?

If the child truly believes, then it isn't lip service, is it?

Of course, since you don't actually believe, you're attributing fake feelings to a fake situation. As I said, it's not necessarily the case that not attending church is a sign of hypocrisy, I'm just saying that it can be.

Well who knows, maybe you'll meet someone there that you'd never have met where you are. (And good luck with the move. Moving is a very stressful buisness and I hope it's not too stressfully for you.)

(Though in the context of our discussion I hope you do try and deal with any issue you find in a place like that and make such you keep that acceptence don't let the experience erode it.)

Thanks, it is quite tough at the moment, but that's neither here nor there. If I find such sentiment I'll address it (I'm not going to go out of my way to look for it, but if it comes up in discussion at whatever church I happen to find up there, or playing Poker at the club, then we'll see what we see).

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I won't teach my children that liberalism is fine for Christians, and therefore would not allow it. I would hope that my own church had a Sunday School curriculum that was fun and engaging to the point that another Sunday School that taught false teachings would not be more appealing.

What if they wanted to go to a mosque to learn about another religion with a friend who was a Muslim? I can see a child of around 10 being curious about other religions a friend may follow.

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Posted (edited)

What if they wanted to go to a mosque to learn about another religion with a friend who was a Muslim? I can see a child of around 10 being curious about other religions a friend may follow.

When they're older, yes. I mentioned in an earlier post something about the age a child is legally allowed to get a job (14 years and 9 months). If they ask me several months before, I'd consider relenting at the time, depending on how mature they were. But as a general rule, I think that's a fair age for them to find their own way. Much longer, and if I'm forcing them they're going to resent it. Until such time as this though, I'd teach my kids about what Islam teaches and how it operates, but I won't let them attend worship at a Mosque while still being that young. When they're older, I'd actually encourage them to visit a mosque, to learn about how a Muslim worships and what it means to them. Edited by Paranoid Android

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Indeedly-doo, I am an optimist at heart.

I won't teach my children that liberalism is fine for Christians, and therefore would not allow it. I would hope that my own church had a Sunday School curriculum that was fun and engaging to the point that another Sunday School that taught false teachings would not be more appealing.

I'm an optimist too, which makes me question why you're so anti-liberal considering claims of acceptance.

I don't know. Sunday school stuff that I've seen has been a little... well, not fun or engaging.

Indeed that is true, those exceptions to the rule need to be treated differently (after all, fairness is not treating everyone equally, but rather by giving people what they need ~ a quote from my a video I saw at university about Inclusive Education).

Of course. I just hope that fairness would translate to all.

If the child truly believes, then it isn't lip service, is it?

Of course, since you don't actually believe, you're attributing fake feelings to a fake situation. As I said, it's not necessarily the case that not attending church is a sign of hypocrisy, I'm just saying that it can be.

How would you define a child 'truly believing'? They couldn't accept jesus as their savior, because they'd not understand what that means. In fact many christian beliefs that a true believer would hold would be beyond them, so how could they 'truly believe'?

That is true and saying all that made me feel extremely uncomfortable. I don't know. It sounded like you were very much implying it was hypocrisy. You know, with saying I'd be an 'evildoer' for not doing it.

Thanks, it is quite tough at the moment, but that's neither here nor there. If I find such sentiment I'll address it (I'm not going to go out of my way to look for it, but if it comes up in discussion at whatever church I happen to find up there, or playing Poker at the club, then we'll see what we see).

Yeah, I can imagine. A few years back we moved into my grandparents place and, well that was a bit of a mess so I can understand how bad moving can get.

I hope you do.

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Posted (edited)

When they're older, yes. I mentioned in an earlier post something about the age a child is legally allowed to get a job (14 years and 9 months). If they ask me several months before, I'd consider relenting at the time, depending on how mature they were. But as a general rule, I think that's a fair age for them to find their own way. Much longer, and if I'm forcing them they're going to resent it. Until such time as this though, I'd teach my kids about what Islam teaches and how it operates, but I won't let them attend worship at a Mosque.

Didn't see that post, sorry :P I wouldn't mind them going a bit younger than that if they were really that curious. As long as I knew they were safe and whatnot.

What do you mean you'd teach them "what Islam teach and how it operates" though? :hmm:

Edited by Heaven Is A Halfpipe

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Until such time as this though, I'd teach my kids about what Islam teaches and how it operates, but I won't let them attend worship at a Mosque.

I have a question about this. (And this is going to show my lack of knowledge of the educational system so I apologise in advance).

At high school, we were taught RE (religious edcation) which was the basics on various religions. My question relates to that (and if there's not a similar class down there, just let me know because as I say, I have no idea). As part of the class a field trip was organised to a.... place of worship. (I honestly can't remmeber what it was now, I just know it was non christian) would you let your child attend such a trip? (It wasn't to attend a service but to look around and see the different parts of the building and what it looked like.)

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I don't know. Sunday school stuff that I've seen has been a little... well, not fun or engaging.

Like making diorama's of the Last Supper? Cardboard cutouts, little sticks and pieces of wood representing chairs and tables, tiny Maccas bags fashioned onto the table (because everyone knows Jesus ate McDonalds at the Last Supper). This being just one example from the Sunday School of my current church. The kids seemed to enjoy it.

How would you define a child 'truly believing'? They couldn't accept jesus as their savior, because they'd not understand what that means. In fact many christian beliefs that a true believer would hold would be beyond them, so how could they 'truly believe'?

That is true and saying all that made me feel extremely uncomfortable. I don't know. It sounded like you were very much implying it was hypocrisy. You know, with saying I'd be an 'evildoer' for not doing it.

It's simply what Christ will say to those who are found to be hypocrites. Maybe not those exact words, but those are the words Jesus uses in the Bible. As to truly believing, they may know at their current level of cognitive learning what their beliefs are, and as they mature and learn more they may grow out of their beliefs, but that doesn't mean they didn't truly believe.

I have a question about this. (And this is going to show my lack of knowledge of the educational system so I apologise in advance).

At high school, we were taught RE (religious edcation) which was the basics on various religions. My question relates to that (and if there's not a similar class down there, just let me know because as I say, I have no idea). As part of the class a field trip was organised to a.... place of worship. (I honestly can't remmeber what it was now, I just know it was non christian) would you let your child attend such a trip? (It wasn't to attend a service but to look around and see the different parts of the building and what it looked like.)

As a general rule, we don't have RE classes where I live. Some schools permit volunteers to come in and teach scripture. Some schools probably do have RE classes, but not the ones I've been involved with. With that said, if there was a field trip organised to a place of worship, since public schools are not allowed to endorse one religion as true and another as not, then I would have faith that the teachers aren't going to tell my children that this is "the truth" and that they must believe it.

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Didn't see that post, sorry :P I wouldn't mind them going a bit younger than that if they were really that curious. As long as I knew they were safe and whatnot.

What do you mean you'd teach them "what Islam teach and how it operates" though? :hmm:

Tell them about Islam, the religion of peace that is followed by roughly 1.1 billion human beings on our planet. I'd look at Islamic websites that teach what Islam is all about. I'd also teach them about other faiths and what they believe. I wouldn't demonise the Muslims, if that's what you're getting at. I'll teach them Islamic faith from the point of view of an Islamic follower, so that they know why people choose to believe it. I think it's very important to approach each world view from the point of view of that world view. Otherwise you get a skewed idea of what people actually believe. For example, if I approached Buddhism with the question "what does Buddhism say about sin", then the answer is going to be quite light, because Buddhism says very little about sin. If I then conclude "Buddhism must be wrong because it cannot sufficiently answer the problem of sin" then I've imposed my own Christian doctrines onto another faith and totally abused the beauty inside that belief. Taking such a view of world religions may help me feel all nice and fuzzy about Christianity, but it isn't going to teach me (or my child) what that world view actually teaches.

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Like making diorama's of the Last Supper? Cardboard cutouts, little sticks and pieces of wood representing chairs and tables, tiny Maccas bags fashioned onto the table (because everyone knows Jesus ate McDonalds at the Last Supper). This being just one example from the Sunday School of my current church. The kids seemed to enjoy it.

Well that's better than what I've heard of before, which has come acoss as rather... dry. And that's putting it kindly.

It's simply what Christ will say to those who are found to be hypocrites. Maybe not those exact words, but those are the words Jesus uses in the Bible. As to truly believing, they may know at their current level of cognitive learning what their beliefs are, and as they mature and learn more they may grow out of their beliefs, but that doesn't mean they didn't truly believe.

I'd say it's a bit much to call people that don't come to church hypocrites. After all, christianity is more than just gathering together once a week isn't it? It's more about what yu do the rest of the time.

It's very eay to 'truly believe' somethin when it's a watered down version nothing like what it actual is.

As a general rule, we don't have RE classes where I live. Some schools permit volunteers to come in and teach scripture. Some schools probably do have RE classes, but not the ones I've been involved with. With that said, if there was a field trip organised to a place of worship, since public schools are not allowed to endorse one religion as true and another as not, then I would have faith that the teachers aren't going to tell my children that this is "the truth" and that they must believe it.

Ah, like I said, I reall wasn't aware for that, so now I feel more informed.

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Well that's better than what I've heard of before, which has come acoss as rather... dry. And that's putting it kindly.

Not sure what you've been hearing is the norm.

I'd say it's a bit much to call people that don't come to church hypocrites. After all, christianity is more than just gathering together once a week isn't it? It's more about what yu do the rest of the time.

It's very eay to 'truly believe' somethin when it's a watered down version nothing like what it actual is.

It's part of it, but meeting up with believers IS a command, and if you aren't following the Bible then are you truly committed to Christ?

And yes, it's easy to believe, however, telling my child that Jesus is his friend who cares and loves him and is with him in his heart always is precisely the message of the Bible. It's a very basic form of the message, but essentially that is what it means. Why does Jesus care so much? Because he loved you so very much that he died for you. That's the next step when the cognitive ability rises. Why did he die for me, because we've done wrong in his eyes. That is the next step. What wrongs have we done? The next step. All this is age appropriate stuff, building on each other, the most basic to a more detailed understanding, until they have a proper understanding of what Christianity is.

Ah, like I said, I reall wasn't aware for that, so now I feel more informed.

No worries. I wouldn't mind a RE class that focused on world religions. It's just not something done often in the schools in my area.

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Not sure what you've been hearing is the norm.

It's hard to say really isn't it since all are different and not expected to follow any set activities.

It's part of it, but meeting up with believers IS a command, and if you aren't following the Bible then are you truly committed to Christ?

And since I WOULD be meeting with believers that command wouldn't be violated. I just looked back at the passage you used. It refers to believers meeting regularly. It does not state how regularly those meetings should be. So critising someone depite the still attending regularly sounds odd.

And yes, it's easy to believe, however, telling my child that Jesus is his friend who cares and loves him and is with him in his heart always is precisely the message of the Bible. It's a very basic form of the message, but essentially that is what it means. Why does Jesus care so much? Because he loved you so very much that he died for you. That's the next step when the cognitive ability rises. Why did he die for me, because we've done wrong in his eyes. That is the next step. What wrongs have we done? The next step. All this is age appropriate stuff, building on each other, the most basic to a more detailed understanding, until they have a proper understanding of what Christianity is.

I'd say it was an extremely basic one and that it misses a lot of the more negative aspects to make it palatable. I think when you get to 'the wrongs that we've done' and start listing them is where you'd likely start losing the hold on the child. The basic positive belief may sell them on it till then though.

No worries. I wouldn't mind a RE class that focused on world religions. It's just not something done often in the schools in my area.

I can't rememebr anything about the class i attended if i'm honest. The teacher wasn't the best and I think it just... left me as soon as it was done.

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It's hard to say really isn't it since all are different and not expected to follow any set activities.

You're the one who brought up Sunday School being "dry" (and that, put mildly).

And since I WOULD be meeting with believers that command wouldn't be violated. I just looked back at the passage you used. It refers to believers meeting regularly. It does not state how regularly those meetings should be. So critising someone depite the still attending regularly sounds odd.

I'm speaking more generally than just the hypothetical case of you and your partner alternating weeks to watch the kid at home. Remember, you brought the issue of some Christians choosing not to go to church at all, and others simply going "when they feel like it". That's what I'm talking about, not specifically you in this situation.

I'd say it was an extremely basic one and that it misses a lot of the more negative aspects to make it palatable. I think when you get to 'the wrongs that we've done' and start listing them is where you'd likely start losing the hold on the child. The basic positive belief may sell them on it till then though.

At first it has to be extremely basic, that's what "age appropriate" means. Play School talking about a girl and her "two mummies" is also extremely basic. When I was 8 or 9 (I can't remember exactly), my parents bought me a book on combat in World War II. It simply had bright pictures of tanks, planes, guns, grenades. There were short descriptions of each underneath in friendly letters for me to read. I enjoyed looking at these weapons (most boys do), it even inspired me to write a story about an alternate reality where for some reason World War II did not end in 1945 and the battle still ravaged the world in the mid 1980's. But my parents didn't give me any reading material on Auschwitz, they didn't relate the horrors of war, the disease, starvation, battlefield triage. They didn't teach me about military battle strategy, tactics, who invaded who. So I had a very basic understanding of WWII (they had particular weapons), what you'd call "age appropriate", and it inspired me as a kid to become creative and use my ability to write, even then I loved to write ("the sunlight glinted off the cannon of the *insert official tank name here* as it rolled towards the enemy hiding in the nearby trench" - that may or may not have been how my story started, I only remember writing it, not specific details, but you get the idea).

Likewise I think teaching my children age appropriate things about Jesus is acceptable. As they develop they can learn deeper levels of my belief, and by the time they're 12 or 13 they probably have everything they need to know - Jesus' sacrifice, love, eternity, sin, judgement, repentance, Grace, and of course several well-known stories like David and Goliath and the like (though of course, as they develop further cognitive abilities, and move into High School, I'll start introducing them to more age appropriate stuff like the battle campaigns of the Israelites, including the death and destruction given out against other nations (just like learning about Auschwitz, there's an age appropriate time for this sort of thing).

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You're the one who brought up Sunday School being "dry" (and that, put mildly).

The ones I've seen didn't have uch activities, but was focussed on bible readings and such which... well. Expecting a kid to understand many of the bible stories is a bit ,uch

I'm speaking more generally than just the hypothetical case of you and your partner alternating weeks to watch the kid at home. Remember, you brought the issue of some Christians choosing not to go to church at all, and others simply going "when they feel like it". That's what I'm talking about, not specifically you in this situation.

Ah. Well, like I say, it's all down to a person's choice. You may not like that a christian doesn't go to church regularly, but you can't actually do anything about it can you? Anymore than you could admonish people in liberal churches and force them to attend your own.

Ultimately we're all human and it's their choice to go or not and it's not your place to judge them for it is it?

At first it has to be extremely basic, that's what "age appropriate" means. Play School talking about a girl and her "two mummies" is also extremely basic. When I was 8 or 9 (I can't remember exactly), my parents bought me a book on combat in World War II. It simply had bright pictures of tanks, planes, guns, grenades. There were short descriptions of each underneath in friendly letters for me to read. I enjoyed looking at these weapons (most boys do), it even inspired me to write a story about an alternate reality where for some reason World War II did not end in 1945 and the battle still ravaged the world in the mid 1980's. But my parents didn't give me any reading material on Auschwitz, they didn't relate the horrors of war, the disease, starvation, battlefield triage. They didn't teach me about military battle strategy, tactics, who invaded who. So I had a very basic understanding of WWII (they had particular weapons), what you'd call "age appropriate", and it inspired me as a kid to become creative and use my ability to write, even then I loved to write ("the sunlight glinted off the cannon of the *insert official tank name here* as it rolled towards the enemy hiding in the nearby trench" - that may or may not have been how my story started, I only remember writing it, not specific details, but you get the idea).

My mother's a preschool teacher. Due to the age of the children she can only teach them very basic things. The alphabet, numbers 1-10, identifying farm animals. So I know that to teach you have to start ith the basics. And yeah, when you get to certain subjects (like World War II) kids are bought into them gently, only learning of the whole story when they get to the right age to be able to grasp the full concepts.

However, when it comes to religion, it's alot more tricky. Mum teaches basic religion to those kids too (not much just stuff like what the holidays are and when) but that's all you can do, the basics. And when teaching to kids you have to be objective in a way you don't have to be for other subjects. Like WWII, we know that happened. Believing it did or didn't won't change the fact that it did, sadly, happen. Whereas with religion, it's much more of a gray area. you have to be objective if you're teaching a child such things and I don't see that objectivity in you.

(I remember I wrote something too, a poem based on a completely diferent book about pond life.)

Likewise I think teaching my children age appropriate things about Jesus is acceptable. As they develop they can learn deeper levels of my belief, and by the time they're 12 or 13 they probably have everything they need to know - Jesus' sacrifice, love, eternity, sin, judgement, repentance, Grace, and of course several well-known stories like David and Goliath and the like (though of course, as they develop further cognitive abilities, and move into High School, I'll start introducing them to more age appropriate stuff like the battle campaigns of the Israelites, including the death and destruction given out against other nations (just like learning about Auschwitz, there's an age appropriate time for this sort of thing).

Personally I think the whole thing comes over as a bad idea. You're starting off with the basic teaching that 'jesus is your friend'. At the same time, you'd be teaching them how to make friends and act around people. When they get to the age appropriate stuff, especially the more extreme stuff they may turn to you and go 'dad, you said jesus was my friend,so why does he act in a way that you have always taught me is not the way to act with my friends?' And then you're stuck with the tricky problem of trying to justify that. I only say this because I'm known people bought up in christian homes in the way you say and there always comes to a point like that here it falls apart because jesus acting in a way a friend is not supposed to does not compute as being correct and it all starts to unravel.

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Posted (edited)

The ones I've seen didn't have uch activities, but was focussed on bible readings and such which... well. Expecting a kid to understand many of the bible stories is a bit ,uch

Oh, they don't ignore the Bible here. I've never sat in a Sunday School class before to see what they go through before they come back to the congregation carrying arts and crafts to show their parents, but I know that we are a Bible based church and therefore we would teach the Bible to the kids. That would mean children's Bibles (I've seen some "comic Bibles" that leave out all the heavy stuff, make it like a comic book and have the characters with speech bubbles. So they would have learnt about what the Last Supper was (Jesus' last night on earth before he died and later came back to life), and then they did some fun activities to strengthen their understanding of that.

Ah. Well, like I say, it's all down to a person's choice. You may not like that a christian doesn't go to church regularly, but you can't actually do anything about it can you? Anymore than you could admonish people in liberal churches and force them to attend your own.

Ultimately we're all human and it's their choice to go or not and it's not your place to judge them for it is it?

You're right, it is entirely their choice. And their choices will have an impact on the afterlife, and while I cannot speak for them personally (I don't know what their thought processes are) God does, and it's him who will judge. As I said I can't imagine a Christian shunning the Bible's words to meet regularly without severely compromising their actual commitment to that belief.

My mother's a preschool teacher. Due to the age of the children she can only teach them very basic things. The alphabet, numbers 1-10, identifying farm animals. So I know that to teach you have to start ith the basics. And yeah, when you get to certain subjects (like World War II) kids are bought into them gently, only learning of the whole story when they get to the right age to be able to grasp the full concepts.

However, when it comes to religion, it's alot more tricky. Mum teaches basic religion to those kids too (not much just stuff like what the holidays are and when) but that's all you can do, the basics. And when teaching to kids you have to be objective in a way you don't have to be for other subjects. Like WWII, we know that happened. Believing it did or didn't won't change the fact that it did, sadly, happen. Whereas with religion, it's much more of a gray area. you have to be objective if you're teaching a child such things and I don't see that objectivity in you.

(I remember I wrote something too, a poem based on a completely diferent book about pond life.)

So you understand my reasoning here, if not my agreement with the content.

Personally I think the whole thing comes over as a bad idea. You're starting off with the basic teaching that 'jesus is your friend'. At the same time, you'd be teaching them how to make friends and act around people. When they get to the age appropriate stuff, especially the more extreme stuff they may turn to you and go 'dad, you said jesus was my friend,so why does he act in a way that you have always taught me is not the way to act with my friends?' And then you're stuck with the tricky problem of trying to justify that. I only say this because I'm known people bought up in christian homes in the way you say and there always comes to a point like that here it falls apart because jesus acting in a way a friend is not supposed to does not compute as being correct and it all starts to unravel.

What does Jesus do that friends don't normally do? Edited by Paranoid Android

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Oh, they don't ignore the Bible here. I've never sat in a Sunday School class before to see what they go through before they come back to the congregation carrying arts and crafts to show their parents, but I know that we are a Bible based church and therefore we would teach the Bible to the kids. That would mean children's Bibles (I've seen some "comic Bibles" that leave out all the heavy stuff, make it like a comic book and have the characters with speech bubbles. So they would have learnt about what the Last Supper was (Jesus' last night on earth before he died and later came back to life), and then they did some fun activities to strengthen their understanding of that.

To be honest, it all sounds very strange.

You're right, it is entirely their choice. And their choices will have an impact on the afterlife, and while I cannot speak for them personally (I don't know what their thought processes are) God does, and it's him who will judge. As I said I can't imagine a Christian shunning the Bible's words to meet regularly without severely compromising their actual commitment to that belief.

The problem is, you're working on the assumption that you know their thoughts and actions. Not only that but you're assuming what god would do to them, ssolely based on one thing. All of that sounds extremely... well.

So you understand my reasoning here, if not my agreement with the content.

I suppose. But I also don't see why a person shuld be made to believe something before they're emotionally mature enough to do so independantly.

What does Jesus do that friends don't normally do?

Well if you dismiss him he grants them eternal death. I'm sure you'd not teach your child that it'd be acceptable to kill someone who stopped being their friend or ignored them.

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Posted (edited)

To be honest, it all sounds very strange.

Why?

The problem is, you're working on the assumption that you know their thoughts and actions. Not only that but you're assuming what god would do to them, ssolely based on one thing. All of that sounds extremely... well.

And yet I also admit that I am not able to Judge. I will not judge. Only God can judge. I can point out possibilities, but they would not be made as direct accusations.

I suppose. But I also don't see why a person shuld be made to believe something before they're emotionally mature enough to do so independantly.

Which is the crux of our disagreement, so I guess we leave this discussion where it is.

Well if you dismiss him he grants them eternal death. I'm sure you'd not teach your child that it'd be acceptable to kill someone who stopped being their friend or ignored them.

Of course I would not teach such. But of course they would know that Jesus is "special". He is not like Jason or Trung or Mohammed who is just their friend on earth. Again this is part of age appropriate learning. To know that friendship with Jesus is actually different from from friendship with others. But as a start, at age appropriate points, I don't think bringing it up is actually that wrong. But again, we agree on this, and that puts us right back where we were in the last post. Edited by Paranoid Android

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