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Yamato

Australia takes Japan to court over whaling

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From June 26 to July 6 2013 one of the most intriguing environmental court cases in years will be heard by the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in The Hague. Australia has taken Japan to court over whaling in the Southern Ocean.

In May 2010 Australia filed an application at the International Court of Justice to commence proceedings against Japan in relation to Japan’s program of “scientific whaling”, JARPA II.

Australia wants the court to declare that Japan is in breach of its international obligations under the International Convention for the Regulation of Whaling (ICRW).

Specifically, in its deposition to the court, Australia contends that Japan “has breached and is continuing to breach” its obligations under the international convention. The obligations are “to observe in good faith the zero catch limit allocated to the killing of whales for commercial purposes; and its obligation to act in good faith to refrain from participating in commercial whaling of humpback and fin whales in the Southern Ocean Sanctuary”.

Australia has further asserted that Japan has refused to accept recommendations of the International Whaling Commission (IWC, established under the convention) to protect whale stock for future generations and recommendations to not proceed with JARPA II. Australia also argues that these matters are not able to be resolved in the International Whaling Commission.

http://theconversation.com/australia-takes-japan-to-court-on-whaling-where-to-now-13481

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So after more than a decade of throwing stinky butter at the Japanese, we are almost back where we were in 1986? With the help of the Greenpeace surveillance operation that uncovered whale meat in restaurants, they might even have a chance of getting somewhere. Thank's GREENPEACE.

This is what I have been saying all along. Pirates wont stop the Whaling, a table will.

Embarrassing that yet again, New Zealand is showing us Aussies up. I'd move there if the pay was better.

New Zealand’s intervention centres, among other things, on the argument that a Special Permit to kill whales can only be given if killing is for scientific research, the killing is necessary and proportionate to the outcomes of the research, and it will have no negative effect on whale stocks. In addition, Japan has discharged its duty of cooperation with the Scientific Committee and the whaling commission.

New Zealand argues that issuing a Special Permit for JARPA II doesn’t meet these requirements and therefore that permits should be prohibited.

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Not sure how a restaurant table is going to stop whaling when Japan consumes thousands of tons of whale meat every year. Who is denying that and what difference would documenting it make? Japan isn't even denying it, so what's the point?

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Posted (edited)

Not sure how a restaurant table is going to stop whaling when Japan consumes thousands of tons of whale meat every year. Who is denying that and what difference would documenting it make? Japan isn't even denying it, so what's the point?

Bloody hell, you do not know what is going on at all do you? You really ought to give up on Whale Wars and try reading. Yes Japan is denying it, that is how they maintain the loophole!

Japan is not allowed to kill Whales for Commercial consumption, That is the loophole they are exploiting. The meat GREENPEACE found in restaurants can only have come from the hunt. That PROVES the hunt is not dedicated to scientific purposes, effectively turning the loophole into a hangman's noose. BAM goodbye excuse, goodbye whaling, hello International lawsuit.

Edited by psyche101
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Posted (edited)

Hey Yam, remember me offering you this?

From Wikipedia:

When the commercial whaling moratorium was introduced by the IWC in 1982, Japan lodged an official objection. However, in response to US threats to cut Japan's fishing quota in US territorial waters under the terms of the Packwood-Magnuson Amendment, Japan withdrew its objection in 1987. According to the BBC, America went back on this promise, effectively destroying the deal.[20] Since Japan could not resume commercial whaling, it began whaling on a scientific-research basis. Australia, Greenpeace, the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society and other groups dispute the Japanese claim of research "as a disguise for commercial whaling, which is banned."

Now do you understand why the efforts of GREENPEACE are crucial?

Edited by psyche101

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Hey Yam, remember me offering you this?

From Wikipedia:

When the commercial whaling moratorium was introduced by the IWC in 1982, Japan lodged an official objection. However, in response to US threats to cut Japan's fishing quota in US territorial waters under the terms of the Packwood-Magnuson Amendment, Japan withdrew its objection in 1987. According to the BBC, America went back on this promise, effectively destroying the deal.[20] Since Japan could not resume commercial whaling, it began whaling on a scientific-research basis. Australia, Greenpeace, the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society and other groups dispute the Japanese claim of research "as a disguise for commercial whaling, which is banned."

Now do you understand why the efforts of GREENPEACE are crucial?

US threats to cut Japan's fishing quotas in US territorial waters is what "cheesed them off"? That would be par for their course of not respecting territories and sanctuaries that they're still having to be dealt with legally for violating. But appeasement is tantamount to impotence. There's a word for one who's afraid of confrontation because they might anger who they disagree with: Victim.

Even if I did have disagreements about the efforts of Greenpeace (like?) that would be no excuse to launch into abusive tirades against you or any other poster on this message board.

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Bloody hell, you do not know what is going on at all do you? You really ought to give up on Whale Wars and try reading. Yes Japan is denying it, that is how they maintain the loophole!

Japan is not allowed to kill Whales for Commercial consumption, That is the loophole they are exploiting. The meat GREENPEACE found in restaurants can only have come from the hunt. That PROVES the hunt is not dedicated to scientific purposes, effectively turning the loophole into a hangman's noose. BAM goodbye excuse, goodbye whaling, hello International lawsuit.

You're sprinkling baseless claims with factoids and trying to convince me of what I already know plus your opinion.

Show me the evidence that Japan is denying it consumes whale meat. I'd love to see the Japanese BS posted from you of all people. Let's explore their denials right here on this thread. Good luck.

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I just wanna add that the Japanese are not stoping, they have an obsession with whale meat, I don´t know why... its supposed they´re and advanced and modern society in its own terms, but I doubt they will ever stop, if whaling is forbidden that would just increase the price, can´t they live happy with just chicken and fish?

in my country fishermen have understood in large proportions about stopping killing dolphins, smal whales and even some species of octopus and shrimp, but that´s because we were never a society so obsessed in eating them, the Japanese are a whole different breed in those matters

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I just wanna add that the Japanese are not stoping, they have an obsession with whale meat, I don´t know why... its supposed they´re and advanced and modern society in its own terms, but I doubt they will ever stop, if whaling is forbidden that would just increase the price, can´t they live happy with just chicken and fish?

in my country fishermen have understood in large proportions about stopping killing dolphins, smal whales and even some species of octopus and shrimp, but that´s because we were never a society so obsessed in eating them, the Japanese are a whole different breed in those matters

If the court rules against Japan this July and they continue to break the law anyway, what's the next step? Some have suggested that an escort out of the Sanctuary via naval frigate would be an "act of war" which means that Russia and the US are at war and we don't even know it.

Our dying oceans are about more than just whales and dolphins, they also include fish stocks being rapidly extinguished by modern technology that's pulling out mass quantities of fish many times faster than the oceans can replenish them. Tens of millions of sharks are being slaughtered every year, often for nothing more than their fins and they're thrown back into the oceans without their fins to die slow deaths before they drown. The Bluefin Tuna is the fastest fish in the sea and it's going extinct. Mitsubishi is warehousing Bluefin in gigantic freezers investing in the economics of extinction, essentially investing in these creatures as commodities with exponential increases in value due to their growing scarcity. It was hard to believe that a single tuna would be worth a million dollars as Paul Watson claimed several years ago, and then I saw an article a few years ago about a tuna in Japan pulling in close to a half a million dollars. Investing in extinction is so profitable nothing else even comes close.

I just did some homework and just realized that the million dollar mark for a single tuna fish has already been trounced:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-20919306

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Posted (edited)

US threats to cut Japan's fishing quotas in US territorial waters is what "cheesed them off"? That would be par for their course of not respecting territories and sanctuaries that they're still having to be dealt with legally for violating.

Par for the course? Even though the US did it to Japan first huh? And you are OK with that are you?

I have given you this link before, I doubt very much that you read it, I urge you to do so this time and make yourself more aware of the situation between the US and Japan and the tentions that arose at the time of the moratorium initiation.

LINK - Did Greens help kill the whale?

Do you understand why the efforts of GREEPEACE are moe crucial now than ever? Do you now realise this careful planned non violent data gather might be the best shot at ending whaling? Japan signed an International treaty, it's on paper mate. Scientific Purposes. Much more effective than 1,000 cakes of stinky butter.

But appeasement is tantamount to impotence. There's a word for one who's afraid of confrontation because they might anger who they disagree with: Victim.

If you are so happy with the Sea Shepherd tactics, then you ought to be very proud of Japan. The Sea Shepherd band of pirates come terrorists are saying "you canot take whales from a sanctuary" well the US said to Japan We are taking away your right to fish in northern waters. The Japanese stood up to the bullying the US did to them just like the Sea Shepherd is supposedly standing up to the Japanse.

Why is nobody protesting to reinstate the original agrement, name and shame the US, and asking Japan to go back to their agreement of no whaling??????? Why throw stinky butter at them instead???

How is that not a fair proposal?

Even if I did have disagreements about the efforts of Greenpeace (like?) that would be no excuse to launch into abusive tirades against you or any other poster on this message board.

Like? You say they are useless rainbow chasing hippies that do nothing. Want some quotes?

If you consider the above abusive, you have more problems than just me mate. Your behaviour was unwarranted in the other thread, and it is my opinion that you created any animosity existing in these discussions.

Edited by psyche101

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Posted (edited)

I just wanna add that the Japanese are not stoping, they have an obsession with whale meat, I don´t know why... its supposed they´re and advanced and modern society in its own terms, but I doubt they will ever stop, if whaling is forbidden that would just increase the price, can´t they live happy with just chicken and fish?

in my country fishermen have understood in large proportions about stopping killing dolphins, smal whales and even some species of octopus and shrimp, but that´s because we were never a society so obsessed in eating them, the Japanese are a whole different breed in those matters

That is a very ignorant statement and stereotyping an entire nation. Most Japanese people do not support commercial whaling. Much of what they know just comes from their own papers, just like Western society. It's a political debate more than anything, and the link in the above post explains how tis situation actually came about.

Are the Japanese Diehards for Whaling?

To put things in perspective, Japanese people today do not actually consume all that much whale meat. According to a 2006 Gallup poll conducted by the Nippon Research Center and commissioned by Greenpeace, 95 percent of the population reportedly had not eaten whale meat in a long time, ate whale meat very rarely, or ate it not at all. It seems, however, many Japanese are rather concerned about their traditional right to eat whale meat, regardless of whether they plan on dining on it themselves. It was an important food staple during and after World War II, and remains a sentimental favorite among people who lived through that era. There are also occasional accusations that the West is indulging in culinary snobbery and should butt out when it comes to the cuisine served up in Japanese kitchens.

It does appear that many Japanese people are largely unconcerned by the idea of whaling, in part because whaling and other fisheries are said to form a long-standing tradition for the island nation. Since these practices go back several hundred or even several thousand years, many claim they're culturally justified. One small study collected in a work edited by Steven Tötösy de Zepetnek and Jennifer W. Jay verified this position. Respondents were adamant that whaling was a custom and a right, and should continue as long as whale populations remain stable — although an earlier similar study apparently found less enthusiasm.

However, it is possible that positive feelings toward whaling have more basis in the present than in the past. For many Japanese, exposure to the practice comes mainly in the form of newspaper articles and other forms of mass media that are critical of anti-whaling efforts, something that could fuel the defensive attitude.

LINK

Edited by psyche101

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Par for the course? Even though the US did it to Japan first huh? And you are OK with that are you?

I have given you this link before, I doubt very much that you read it, I urge you to do so this time and make yourself more aware of the situation between the US and Japan and the tentions that arose at the time of the moratorium initiation.

LINK - Did Greens help kill the whale?

Do you understand why the efforts of GREEPEACE are moe crucial now than ever? Do you now realise this careful planned non violent data gather might be the best shot at ending whaling? Japan signed an International treaty, it's on paper mate. Scientific Purposes. Much more effective than 1,000 cakes of stinky butter.

If you are so happy with the Sea Shepherd tactics, then you ought to be very proud of Japan. The Sea Shepherd band of pirates come terrorists are saying "you canot take whales from a sanctuary" well the US said to Japan We are taking away your right to fish in northern waters. The Japanese stood up to the bullying the US did to them just like the Sea Shepherd is supposedly standing up to the Japanse.

Why is nobody protesting to reinstate the original agrement, name and shame the US, and asking Japan to go back to their agreement of no whaling??????? Why throw stinky butter at them instead???

How is that not a fair proposal?

Like? You say they are useless rainbow chasing hippies that do nothing. Want some quotes?

If you consider the above abusive, you have more problems than just me mate. Your behaviour was unwarranted in the other thread, and it is my opinion that you created any animosity existing in these discussions.

Why is nobody protesting to reinstate the original agreement? Is Sea Shepherd the only one that can do that, too? They're busy enough already on the meager budget they have.

Listen pal, you support the tactics that you think are effective and I'll support the tactics that I think are effective, and we can leave all this type-A banter and personal assault out in the street where it belongs. Alright? It's a PITA for moderators to have to come here and clean up after the messes of immature people who either can't (or for whatever reason, won't) get along. If you can act civil then I'll be more than happy to discuss anything related to Australia taking Japan to court in this thread.

So they were offended by the Moratorium and their emotional sense of being offended was why they started whaling again? That's a nice theory, but where's the evidence? You're citing an op-ed blaming "the Greens" which in this case isn't the party but all environmentalists of the day who weighed in on this issue and played a part in putting diplomatic pressure to instate the moratorium. And at the same time you keep touting Greenpeace. That is not a position that's square with itself. It isn't Sea Shepherd's fault that the moratorium was enacted any more than it's Greenpeace's, so that's not a reason to flame Sea Shepherd to the exclusion of other organizations involved in this issue in the 1960s-1980s.

An op-ed vaguely referring to some "theory" without any citations or references doesn't nullify anything I've said yet, and I don't see any evidence for this "theory" either. I don't see the bureaucrats from the Japanese government, past or present, who make the decisions about this issue citing their "hurt feelings" as the reason they're going to spend hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars to go thousands of miles away from Japan into a whale sanctuary and the most dangerous ocean on the planet to find some whales to kill. Their reasons for doing this every year since the moratorium began are economic reasons, not emotional ones. They had from 1986-2003 to stop whaling unilaterally after their feelings were repaired, the whole time Sea Shepherd was nowhere in sight. So I'm not going to agree with this "theory" when the facts and the history of Japanese whaling disprove it.

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I can state my opinions about Greenpeace even if they're negative opinions. That's not a TOS violation. What I can't do is berate and assault and abuse other posters who might happen to disagree with me about Greenpeace. And I'm not going to cut and paste examples of this from other threads and pollute this one with more of the same, because we can't remember what we said from a day ago.

Let's let Saru use his time to do more important work than having to babysit us. Alright? I'm better than that, and I think you are too psyche101.

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Posted (edited)

Why is nobody protesting to reinstate the original agreement? Is Sea Shepherd the only one that can do that, too? They're busy enough already on the meager budget they have.

I'd rather the Sea Shepherd just go away. We do not want their help. As it was put earlier they suck at it. The millions they get are not well spent.

You are not getting it , that was a general question. I would never expect Watson to be that clever or intuitive. I realise that is simply too much of an ask.

Listen pal, you support the tactics that you think are effective and I'll support the tactics that I think are effective, and we can leave all this type-A banter and personal assault out in the street where it belongs. Alright? It's a PITA for moderators to have to come here and clean up after the messes of immature people who either can't (or for whatever reason, won't) get along. If you can act civil then I'll be more than happy to discuss anything related to Australia taking Japan to court in this thread.

That is not why we are here, this is a discussion forum, not a p***ing contest about who one should support. Facts are Watsons band of pirates do not help, we Aussies do not want them here and they hinder efforts to stop whaling altogether. They aggravate the situation which ensures a more agressive approach by Japan. That much is fact. The International Whaling Commission do not want them here, we do not want them here, nobody wants them here. Take the hint and move on Sea Shepherd. There are many marine crisis happening, dont feel obligated to feel responsible for Southern Ocean Whaling. Go find another crusade. Surely there is something in Canada that lot could be tackling.

What mods have cleaned up anything? Your making stuff up again Yam.

So they were offended by the Moratorium and their emotional sense of being offended was why they started whaling again? That's a nice theory, but where's the evidence? You're citing an op-ed blaming "the Greens" which in this case isn't the party but all environmentalists of the day who weighed in on this issue and played a part in putting diplomatic pressure to instate the moratorium. And at the same time you keep touting Greenpeace. That is not a position that's square with itself. It isn't Sea Shepherd's fault that the moratorium was enacted any more than it's Greenpeace's, so that's not a reason to flame Sea Shepherd to the exclusion of other organizations involved in this issue in the 1960s-1980s.

Their main food source was put under Quota by the US. How does the US have the right to do that? Look at Japan, hardly a wide farming expanse is it? You are messing with the culture of a nation that outlives America altogether. The evidence was in the link, did you not read it yet again? I have given it to you what 4 or 5 times now?

Yes it is stating all the Greens made the situation as bad as it is, and now the Sea Shepherd open that would gain every year! That is the point, we have already made such dumb mistakes, but Watson just keep rammin his head into the wall time and again. And he is duping people onto thinking he is doing something worthwhile so he can promote his TV show. It's not the Sea Shepherd's Fault that Japan is whaling, it's their fault they continue to whale aggressively. They are not heling. Arrogance and bullying the Japanese started this mess, and that is what Watson continues to do each and every year.

An op-ed vaguely referring to some "theory" without any citations or references doesn't nullify anything I've said yet, and I don't see any evidence for this "theory" either. I don't see the bureaucrats from the Japanese government, past or present, who make the decisions about this issue citing their "hurt feelings" as the reason they're going to spend hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars to go thousands of miles away from Japan into a whale sanctuary and the most dangerous ocean on the planet to find some whales to kill. Their reasons for doing this every year since the moratorium began are economic reasons, not emotional ones. They had from 1986-2003 to stop whaling unilaterally after their feelings were repaired, the whole time Sea Shepherd was nowhere in sight. So I'm not going to agree with this "theory" when the facts and the history of Japanese whaling disprove it.

Then you did not read the link did you? You missed this part:

start_quote_rb.gif Why did America have to cheat us like that? end_quote_rb.gif

Shigeko Misaki

Economic reasons? Like how they had such an excess of whale meat that they had to give it away as school lunches? Or the never ending cost of repairs to damage by Pirates like Watson? Or the Extensive representation in International Courts? Or the money expended to become part of the IWC?

Mate, you have got to be kidding me! One Sony factory probably injects more into the Japanese economy!! If it is economy, why were the US so mad at Japan that they openly smashed electronic Japanese goods like toasters? - go back and read the link to find out.

Their feelings were never repaired. How do you come to that conclusion? You just want to demonise the Japanese.

I can state my opinions about Greenpeace even if they're negative opinions. That's not a TOS violation. What I can't do is berate and assault and abuse other posters who might happen to disagree with me about Greenpeace. And I'm not going to cut and paste examples of this from other threads and pollute this one with more of the same, because we can't remember what we said from a day ago.

Let's let Saru use his time to do more important work than having to babysit us. Alright? I'm better than that, and I think you are too psyche101.

Cannot say I have seen, nor bothered Saru. Don't see the need.

You get what you give Yam. Have a look in the mirror and get back to me on that one.

Ohh yeah, and don't Listen Pal me. OK.

Edited by psyche101

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I'd rather the Sea Shepherd just go away. We do not want their help. As it was put earlier they suck at it. The millions they get are not well spent.

You are not getting it , that was a general question. I would never expect Watson to be that clever or intuitive. I realise that is simply too much of an ask.

That is not why we are here, this is a discussion forum, not a p***ing contest about who one should support. Facts are Watsons band of pirates do not help, we Aussies do not want them here and they hinder efforts to stop whaling altogether. They aggravate the situation which ensures a more agressive approach by Japan. That much is fact. The International Whaling Commission do not want them here, we do not want them here, nobody wants them here. Take the hint and move on Sea Shepherd. There are many marine crisis happening, dont feel obligated to feel responsible for Southern Ocean Whaling. Go find another crusade. Surely there is something in Canada that lot could be tackling.

What mods have cleaned up anything? Your making stuff up again Yam.

Their main food source was put under Quota by the US. How does the US have the right to do that? Look at Japan, hardly a wide farming expanse is it? You are messing with the culture of a nation that outlives America altogether. The evidence was in the link, did you not read it yet again? I have given it to you what 4 or 5 times now?

Yes it is stating all the Greens made the situation as bad as it is, and now the Sea Shepherd open that would gain every year! That is the point, we have already made such dumb mistakes, but Watson just keep rammin his head into the wall time and again. And he is duping people onto thinking he is doing something worthwhile so he can promote his TV show. It's not the Sea Shepherd's Fault that Japan is whaling, it's their fault they continue to whale aggressively. They are not heling. Arrogance and bullying the Japanese started this mess, and that is what Watson continues to do each and every year.

Then you did not read the link did you? You missed this part:

start_quote_rb.gif Why did America have to cheat us like that? end_quote_rb.gif

Shigeko Misaki

Economic reasons? Like how they had such an excess of whale meat that they had to give it away as school lunches? Or the never ending cost of repairs to damage by Pirates like Watson? Or the Extensive representation in International Courts? Or the money expended to become part of the IWC?

Mate, you have got to be kidding me! One Sony factory probably injects more into the Japanese economy!! If it is economy, why were the US so mad at Japan that they openly smashed electronic Japanese goods like toasters? - go back and read the link to find out.

Their feelings were never repaired. How do you come to that conclusion? You just want to demonise the Japanese.

Cannot say I have seen, nor bothered Saru. Don't see the need.

You get what you give Yam. Have a look in the mirror and get back to me on that one.

Ohh yeah, and don't Listen Pal me. OK.

Yes, economic reasons. They sell that poisonous meat before their people put it into their mouths. But expecting any act of government bureaucracy to be efficient, sensible, solvent, logical, much less profitable is a fallacious premise on its face. Japanese whalers of all people are the last people to make an exception out of.

You had no need to bother Saru but inadvertently did already anyway. I had to ask you about five or six times prior to cease the personal attacks and that thread probably wouldn't be sitting idle right now otherwise. Let's keep it on the level. It's not that difficult.

I assign no blame to the US for "cheating" anyone "like that". If we don't want you fishing in our waters, you best pack it up and ship it out.

I've already addressed coolguy when I said not to blame the Japanese people for any of this. They are absolved, even the whale meat eaters, as I've already explained. Repeating the same things over and over again here is not forwarding the discussion.

There was no evidence in that link that Japan was going to stop whaling, whatever that means. That's almost 20 years before Sea Shepherd even engaged with a Japanese ship in the Southern Ocean so it's completely irrelevant to your lack of respect for the most successful marine conservationists of all time.

As for the rest of your response, it can be summarized by:

"They suck"

"Not clever or intuitive..."

"Do not help"

"Aussies don't want them there." (source, please).

"They aggravate the situation."

"The whaling bureau doesn't want them there." (like that's going to change my mind)

"Nobody wants them there." (obviously false).

"Take a hint." (I don't take hints, I just mind the facts, like the Japanese failure to make anywhere near even half of their own quota).

That's not going to change my mind. If you want to be seen as credible on this issue at all, you need to provide alternatives. And the only alternative you've provided is appeasement. They had their appeasement from 1986-2003 and they couldn't dry their tears and pack their government fleet up and head home on their own. They ran out of time and, too bad so sad, and Sea Shepherd arrived to start taking this bankrupt corrupt charade of an organization down.

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Yes, economic reasons. They sell that poisonous meat before their people put it into their mouths. But expecting any act of government bureaucracy to be efficient, sensible, solvent, logical, much less profitable is a fallacious premise on its face. Japanese whalers of all people are the last people to make an exception out of.

You have got to be kidding me. If you think that Japan is dependant on Whaling for their economy, then you are as deluded as Watson. You do realise Japan makes Cars and electronics?

What about the US Government? Why do you wish to absolve those who instigated the problem? I do not think you cafre what the reason is, you just want to demonise the Japanese for some reason.

You had no need to bother Saru but inadvertently did already anyway. I had to ask you about five or six times prior to cease the personal attacks and that thread probably wouldn't be sitting idle right now otherwise. Let's keep it on the level. It's not that difficult.

No, I did not, if you are that much of a wuss that you cannot get through a debate and answer to the animosity you have created, then it's your problem alone. Sitting idle? What are you on about? Do you think mods stop people from entering a thread for determined periods of time or something?

Making more stuff up Yam? It would help if you avoid that too.

I assign no blame to the US for "cheating" anyone "like that". If we don't want you fishing in our waters, you best pack it up and ship it out.

Can you read?

One theory, explored in the BBC World Service's One Planet programme, is that the environmental movement pushed too hard; that its strident calls helped to alienate Japan at the very point where it was prepared to abandon whaling, and to remove a key bargaining tool from the US armoury.

Did the environmental movement harpoon its own ambitions?

This came on top of Japanese resentment that they were being blamed for bringing some whales close to extinction by nations such as the UK and US which had historically caught far greater numbers.

Along with Norway, Peru and the USSR, Japan lodged an objection to the whaling moratorium, which any IWC member was entitled to do, exempting themselves from the decision. It is on that basis that Norwegian whaling continues today.

The diplomatic pressure on Japan was about to increase.

Reports from the period document the strong vein of anti-Japanese sentiment running through some strands of US society at the time.

The nation which US bombers had razed less than 30 years previously, which had entered the war through the attack on Pearl Harbour, was now out-competing the US industrially.

Japanese electronic goods were ceremonially smashed in Congress, and Tokyo voluntarily withheld car exports to avoid US protectionism

Is this where you come into the picture Yam? Anti Japanese? You do not seem to have an argument, and seem to think the US own the entire North Sea.

Turning American citizens and American politicians against Japanese whaling, with lobbying, publicity and boycotts, was perhaps rather easy for NGOs.

The US had two pieces of legislation which it could use to put pressure not only on Japan in general, but on its huge fisheries interests directly.

The Packwood-Magnuson Amendment allowed Washington to cut the fishing quotas in US waters of any country which it felt was undermining an international conservation agreement; under the Pelly Amendment, it could impose trade sanctions on any offending nation.

Fishing quotas were hugely important to Japan. Its boats were catching more than a million tonnes of fish per year in US waters, mainly off the Alaskan coast. The New York Times of 1983 priced the catch at $425m annually, well beyond the value of Japan's whaling.

At the end of 1984, a coalition of environmental groups initiated a lawsuit aimed at forcing Ronald Reagan's administration to invoke Packwood-Magnuson and Pelly against Japan.

Can you explain how this is a fair judgment? This is outrageous. What it seems to be is that you know your own country is responsible for the current situation with Whaling, but refuse to take any blame at all. Very poor effort there Yam. The very least you could do is acknowledge this stuf up was a major turning pint that started this entire mess, but you wont do that will you?

Pride continues this mess, and from what I can see from both sides. As long as the US refuse to go back to Japan and allow decent fishing and stop bullying others, then they are as responsible for every whale killed as is Japan.

I've already addressed coolguy when I said not to blame the Japanese people for any of this. They are absolved, even the whale meat eaters, as I've already explained. Repeating the same things over and over again here is not forwarding the discussion.

Am I coolguy? No I am not, coolguy is very credulous. He believe whatever is controversial, have a look around the forum, ghosts aliens, you name it, none of it is too far fetched for coolguy, but that is what you lot need isn't it. The blind following Watson, and lets just forget all about the moratorium and do what we can to remove focus from the fact that the US helped the current situation to be what it is today.

And you want Aussie to clean your mess up. Good God man, you sure have a cheek.

The discussion will never move forward, you make up your own laws, your own boundaries, you do not read links and you refuse to accept hard evidence that shows why things are how they are today.

There was no evidence in that link that Japan was going to stop whaling, whatever that means. That's almost 20 years before Sea Shepherd even engaged with a Japanese ship in the Southern Ocean so it's completely irrelevant to your lack of respect for the most successful marine conservationists of all time.

I already cut and pasted for you once, how many time do you need?

But in bilateral discussions, the two governments reached an agreement. Japan would cease whaling in 1988, two years beyond the moratorium date, and withdraw its objection; in return, Ronald Reagan's administration agreed not to take action under Packwood-Magnuson or Pelly.

But hey what happened? Ronald Reagans administration DID take action when they agreed NOT to do so.

As for the rest of your response, it can be summarized by:

"They suck"

"Not clever or intuitive..."

"Do not help"

"Aussies don't want them there." (source, please).

"They aggravate the situation."

"The whaling bureau doesn't want them there." (like that's going to change my mind)

"Nobody wants them there." (obviously false).

"Take a hint." (I don't take hints, I just mind the facts, like the Japanese failure to make anywhere near even half of their own quota).

The whaling bureau? You do not even know who is the authority do you? You only know what that stupid TV how tells you. The International Whaling Commission does not want them there. Neither do Governments, neither do the people you know who does want them there?

You bloody TV Junkies on Pay TV who need your dumb Whale Wars show. That is "wants" Watson around. I mentioned Watsons band of Pirates to the WWF reps yesterday who think the same as I do, that he is a pirate and only makes things much worse.

I am an Aussie Yam, born and bred. I am a source, I am saying I do not want Watson and his idiot followers here, where are you from Yam? Have you ever even visited here? I stand by it all up there, they do aggravate the situation, they are a bunch of grubs. What you did not list up there was all the supporting sources I gave to support my situation, unlike yourself who has only offered opinion.

That's not going to change my mind. If you want to be seen as credible on this issue at all, you need to provide alternatives. And the only alternative you've provided is appeasement. They had their appeasement from 1986-2003 and they couldn't dry their tears and pack their government fleet up and head home on their own. They ran out of time and, too bad so sad, and Sea Shepherd arrived to start taking this bankrupt corrupt charade of an organization down.

Appeasement? How about a fair shake? There was no reason to reduce fishing waters to Japan, now they fish much wider waters, and kill bigger things, gee, that worked well. That was the sort of bully tactic Watson loses. I never wanted to convince you Yam, you gave that pack or pirates money, you are not going to back down now, you have your own personal PRIDE to keep protected now don't you! Cannot turn to your family and friends and go "Gee, that might have been a mistake" because the almighty Yam is perfect right? All I wanted to do was show you the other side of the story, and then YOU got awully rude with me in the first thread. YOU created the animosity Yam, and YOU can end it, but only if you want to. As long as you remain acidic in your replies, so shall I.

They did not have appeasement, what on earth are you on about? Did the US come back and say "Sorry, that was rude of us to tell you where to fish, we withdraw our demands". ??

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Can you read?

One theory, explored in the BBC World Service's One Planet programme, is that the environmental movement pushed too hard; that its strident calls helped to alienate Japan at the very point where it was prepared to abandon whaling, and to remove a key bargaining tool from the US armoury.

Did the environmental movement harpoon its own ambitions?

I've already read and commented on that. I referred to the theory multiple times. Go back and reread prior comments I don't feel like fishing it out for you. About half of this discussion is redundant because we're not remembering even what's recently been discussed.

Reports from the period document the strong vein of anti-Japanese sentiment running through some strands of US society at the time.

The nation which US bombers had razed less than 30 years previously, which had entered the war through the attack on Pearl Harbour, was now out-competing the US industrially.

Japanese electronic goods were ceremonially smashed in Congress, and Tokyo voluntarily withheld car exports to avoid US protectionism

So I have to do penance for the sins of other people who lived before I was even born now? Is that what all this argument is about? Japanese nationalism? So because we defeat them in war, then we hurt their feelings by not letting them fish out our waters, now I'm supposed to give Japan special treatment in the world?

At the end of 1984, a coalition of environmental groups initiated a lawsuit aimed at forcing Ronald Reagan's administration to invoke Packwood-Magnuson and Pelly against Japan.

Excuse me, but the US taxpayers have bent over backwards propping Japan up. We turned an island the size of Florida into the 2nd most powerful economy in the world. A coalition of environmental groups needs to initiate another lawsuit against the government I'm sure. Keyword "coalition" meaning there's enough voices to make a difference. There's no apologizing for that. Japan should show some appreciation for what we've done. We had advanced Quality Assurance and Quality Control on the ground in Japan before we even had it here. The debt of sorrow we should feel for winning the war (really?) has been paid, to put it mildly.

Can you explain how this is a fair judgment? This is outrageous. What it seems to be is that you know your own country is responsible for the current situation with Whaling, but refuse to take any blame at all. Very poor effort there Yam. The very least you could do is acknowledge this stuf up was a major turning pint that started this entire mess, but you wont do that will you?

I blame my country for propping foreign powers up with foreign aid, yeah. Including Japan! Japan has been a willing trading partner and has limited its military power to self-defense forces. But being against foreign aid is a principle. If we weren't handing the bank over to Japan for all those years, we could have done a lot of good in the world that we didn't. The opportunity cost we incurred elsewhere is immense.

Pride continues this mess, and from what I can see from both sides. As long as the US refuse to go back to Japan and allow decent fishing and stop bullying others, then they are as responsible for every whale killed as is Japan.

If pride is the problem, kowtowing to it isn't the solution. The problem with this kind of thinking is that the oceans are fished out. We've depleted 90% of the world's oceans large fish in the past 50 years. The oceans cannot withstand this kind of assault and survive. The oceans are dying before our eyes. I think it's time to wake up and get our priorities right on this issue.

Am I coolguy? No I am not, coolguy is very credulous. He believe whatever is controversial, have a look around the forum, ghosts aliens, you name it, none of it is too far fetched for coolguy, but that is what you lot need isn't it. The blind following Watson, and lets just forget all about the moratorium and do what we can to remove focus from the fact that the US helped the current situation to be what it is today.

Don't start berating coolguy here. Chill out before you get in trouble. The US government has helped a line of problematic situations a thousand miles long, bro. Take a number. That's the problem with governments. Their long term track records are so bad, they're non-existent.

And you want Aussie to clean your mess up. Good God man, you sure have a cheek.

The US has been propping up half the world for as long as my grandma can remember. When the Japanese Army was marching on Port Moresby for example, it was the US who came with the big guns you didn't have to rescue you from a Japanese culture yourself. You acknowledge us firebombing Japanese cities, you don't seem to remember us saving Asia and the Pacific from the war criminals of the Japanese Empire.

The discussion will never move forward, you make up your own laws, your own boundaries, you do not read links and you refuse to accept hard evidence that shows why things are how they are today. [/quote

I didn't make the Australian EEZ, the Australian Antarctic Territory, or the Southern Ocean Whale Sanctuary, but I'm flattered.

But in bilateral discussions, the two governments reached an agreement. Japan would cease whaling in 1988, two years beyond the moratorium date, and withdraw its objection; in return, Ronald Reagan's administration agreed not to take action under Packwood-Magnuson or Pelly.

Not taking action under Packwood-Magnuson and Pelly would have been ridiculous. Sacrificing the fish for the whales is no solution at all. Your criticism might not understand the breadth of what marine conservationism is. This is about saving the oceans, not kowtowing to subsidized allies over whales.

But hey what happened? Ronald Reagans administration DID take action when they agreed NOT to do so.

Good for Reagan.

The whaling bureau? You do not even know who is the authority do you? You only know what that stupid TV how tells you. The International Whaling Commission does not want them there. Neither do Governments, neither do the people you know who does want them there?

The "whaling bureau" is greater than the IWC because we've got government bureaucrats from places like Japan playing by their own rules and catching their own quotas. And more recently thanks to Sea Shepherd, not catching its own quota. You should do homework and find out who wants them there. We're going to court, buddy. We're going to find out who wants the Japanese there in a few short months from now.

You bloody TV Junkies on Pay TV who need your dumb Whale Wars show. That is "wants" Watson around. I mentioned Watsons band of Pirates to the WWF reps yesterday who think the same as I do, that he is a pirate and only makes things much worse.

I rarely talk about 'Whale Wars'. You bring it up constantly. I'd rather talk about taking Japan to court, surprise surprise. And Paul Watson doesn't care if you call him a pirate and that's pretty obvious when his response to the accusation is to fly a Jolly Roger.

I am an Aussie Yam, born and bred. I am a source, I am saying I do not want Watson and his idiot followers here, where are you from Yam? Have you ever even visited here? I stand by it all up there, they do aggravate the situation, they are a bunch of grubs. What you did not list up there was all the supporting sources I gave to support my situation, unlike yourself who has only offered opinion.

As we already discussed in the past, I donate 10% of Ebay sales to Sea Shepherd Conservation Society. I'm not like Bob Barker and buying them $5 million ships, but I try to help slap some paint on the hull. Sea Shepherd are unpaid volunteers willing to risk their lives on their contracts to save the life of a whale. I'm impressed to say the least. Sea Shepherd is special and the more people know about them, the better off they do. Their budget is increasing tremendously in the past few years and I don't anticipate that's going to change. As an Aussie, you should be glad that there are private individuals who are using donations from people from my country who is so responsible for this mess, and trying to resolve it without the need for Australian taxpayer financing. That's a huge benefit for you. You should love what Sea Shepherd is doing. This is special. This is so rare in the world where civil society can challenge the world's governments and enforce the rules and regulations without war, without violence, without anyone getting killed and without your money being forced from your pocket to pay for it.

Appeasement? How about a fair shake? There was no reason to reduce fishing waters to Japan, now they fish much wider waters, and kill bigger things, gee, that worked well. That was the sort of bully tactic Watson loses. I never wanted to convince you Yam, you gave that pack or pirates money, you are not going to back down now, you have your own personal PRIDE to keep protected now don't you! Cannot turn to your family and friends and go "Gee, that might have been a mistake" because the almighty Yam is perfect right? All I wanted to do was show you the other side of the story, and then YOU got awully rude with me in the first thread. YOU created the animosity Yam, and YOU can end it, but only if you want to. As long as you remain acidic in your replies, so shall I.

Except you haven't established that there was no reason to reduce fishing waters to Japan. The world's oceans are dying, buddy. The fish are disappearing. There is more reason than you can possibly imagine. The Japanese had almost 20 years to dry their tears and stop whaling unilaterally. The Japanese government can end its bankrupt charade overnight. The only thing stopping Sea Shepherd from total victory is a lack of political will. Future Japanese bureaucrats are going to be less likely to subsidize illegal whaling operations when their bills come due. Japan's fiscal responsibility right now is one of the worst in the world. The Japanese Yen has been devastated in just the past six months and this impacts every Japanese man, woman and child. Siding with a country's government malfeasance, whether economic or legal, is not the way to support a country, it's a way to destroy a country.

http://chart.finance...en-US&region=US

They did not have appeasement, what on earth are you on about? Did the US come back and say "Sorry, that was rude of us to tell you where to fish, we withdraw our demands". ??

That's exactly what you're asking for! You are correct, that is appeasement. And it's not going to happen. It's the worst idea for diplomacy I've ever heard of.

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Posted (edited)

You have got to be kidding me. If you think that Japan is dependant on Whaling for their economy, then you are as deluded as Watson. You do realise Japan makes Cars and electronics?

Japan's economy doesn't need it. It wants it. That's what the government does best: Puts the money down the right holes. And this particular hole goes all the way down from taxpayer subsidies to government whale poachers to whale eating customers. Nothing government does is profitable. It's as big as Godzilla and it's made out of debt, but that won't stop the special interest groups from getting what they want.

Why do you wish to absolve those who instigated the problem? I do not think you cafre what the reason is, you just want to demonise the Japanese for some reason. What about the US Government?

I'm probably the most fiery critic of the US government on this website, bro. I don't believe in the conspiracy theories against it, but most of what it puts out front and center for all to see is just contemptible

I do not think you cafre what the reason is, you just want to demonise the Japanese for some reason.

When I say "Japanese" that is brevity for the Japanese government. I own three Japanese cars. I have a Japanese username. I explained that the Japanese people are absolved; why can't you accept that? I don't blame people for eating government meat. I blame the government for obtaining it illegally. I don't think that my being anti-Japanese is the problem here but thanks for the accusation.

No, I did not, if you are that much of a wuss that you cannot get through a debate and answer to the animosity you have created, then it's your problem alone. Sitting idle? What are you on about? Do you think mods stop people from entering a thread for determined periods of time or something?

That's not cool bro. You can't talk to people like that here. You have enough posts, I'd think you know that by now.

I think that this board is actively moderated. Warnings are given, as Saru just issued. Please respect that! I can't discuss with you here in a civil manner if you're going to be like this; it's impossible. I'd love to discuss this issue with anyone and everyone on this forum but the name-calling needs to stop buddy.

Making more stuff up Yam? It would help if you avoid that too.

Maybe you're not aware of Saru's warning? Maybe you don't realize how many names you call me over time. Let's be civil here. It's easy if you try.

Edited by Yamato

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That is a very ignorant statement and stereotyping an entire nation. Most Japanese people do not support commercial whaling. Much of what they know just comes from their own papers, just like Western society. It's a political debate more than anything, and the link in the above post explains how tis situation actually came about.

Are the Japanese Diehards for Whaling?

To put things in perspective, Japanese people today do not actually consume all that much whale meat. According to a 2006 Gallup poll conducted by the Nippon Research Center and commissioned by Greenpeace, 95 percent of the population reportedly had not eaten whale meat in a long time, ate whale meat very rarely, or ate it not at all. It seems, however, many Japanese are rather concerned about their traditional right to eat whale meat, regardless of whether they plan on dining on it themselves. It was an important food staple during and after World War II, and remains a sentimental favorite among people who lived through that era. There are also occasional accusations that the West is indulging in culinary snobbery and should butt out when it comes to the cuisine served up in Japanese kitchens.

It does appear that many Japanese people are largely unconcerned by the idea of whaling, in part because whaling and other fisheries are said to form a long-standing tradition for the island nation. Since these practices go back several hundred or even several thousand years, many claim they're culturally justified. One small study collected in a work edited by Steven Tötösy de Zepetnek and Jennifer W. Jay verified this position. Respondents were adamant that whaling was a custom and a right, and should continue as long as whale populations remain stable — although an earlier similar study apparently found less enthusiasm.

However, it is possible that positive feelings toward whaling have more basis in the present than in the past. For many Japanese, exposure to the practice comes mainly in the form of newspaper articles and other forms of mass media that are critical of anti-whaling efforts, something that could fuel the defensive attitude.

LINK

yeah, I´m so ignorant that everytime a ship is fishing or whaling ILLEGALLY in my country´s seas it happens to be of japanese flag, so I ask you, smart boy, why they come here so far away to do it if barely no one (in Japan) eats or uses whale products?

plus that link proves nothing, everyone´s got an agenda, if they are whaling that much it´s because someone´s paying for it

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