The Paranormal is it Fake?

[Frank Merton]

"Proof please." or at least "show me credible evidence, not just testimony," is the only appropriate and healthy response when someone makes extraordinary claims. It does not matter that you believe it -- no matter who you are.

There is a difference between skepticism (not believing things just on someone's word" and cynicisms (refusal to believe no matter what."

[Mikko-kun]

"Proof please." or at least "show me credible evidence, not just testimony," is the only appropriate and healthy response when someone makes extraordinary claims. It does not matter that you believe it -- no matter who you are.

There is a difference between skepticism (not believing things just on someone's word" and cynicisms (refusal to believe no matter what."

That's an opinion, Frank. We're all entitled to those. My opinion, what you make of the proof matters too. Like Scowl said. Not just any proof, it's a question what kind of proof, and you'd be expected to be able to give a solid reason why you want the proof you do, what makes you believe the proof you seek would be the kind of proof you need. Not your motives, but why you think the proof you want will actually prove and will actually be there in those conditions you require. An explanation why you think those conditions would be valid for proving the thing. In cryptozoology and murder mystery cases it's pretty often pretty evident, but there too you would do yourself a favor if you put more thought to this, if you really want to find out about those things.

And it's been handled over and over in this topic too probably, but the proof ain't always there in all conditions, and even those who might be able to produce proof might not fully be aware of what kind of conditions they can truly reproduce it. Instead of just calling it their fault, if you're truly interested in finding out about things, why not encourage them for a better path instead of discouraging them or wasting their time? Because they were many of the audacious enough to waste yours? And how would you know if the phenomena was real and they just had some little thing wrong and that why the evidence came out invalid? Would you know what caused the evidence to turn out faulty even if the phenomena was real, or know someone who knows why? I know there's more or less evident cases of charlatans or some who really come across as such, but that explanation isn't a default, not something you should assume of everything that goes against your beliefs.

...

I guess it all boils down to whether you treat this forum (or any other) a debate arena, a place to just discuss, or a place from where you might advance your research and worldviews. I like to mix them up always but the latter is my priority, exploration of all kind. And while I most certainly cannot blame people having different motives than my own for coming here, can you blame me for not serving your motives? If you're here for the same motive as me as your first priority, you dont need proof, because you're driven enough to get it if you know where to look, if someone gives you a map or a clue. We usually research things because they're interesting or important. If you dont feel that way about what you ask proof for, why should I be any more interested than you in addition to all this?

That said, go on demanding your proof in debates. But dont expect it like it'd be written down in a law. Because I dont care if forum rules or real life rules or universe's god-given rules or your personal rules demanded it, it ain't gonna force me to be a servant to someone who doesn't have the heart for what they ask. You know it's a poor form of discussion, unless you want to end the discussion, because there's conclusive proof of nothing. Nothing. There can always be something that'll change our views so profoundly that even the most trusted things we thought were solid, turn upside down. People just lean more towards the explanation they're used to, rather than the new explanation, if the new one feels uncomfortable for them. It doesn't fully govern us, but it influences enough to not accept the slightly more likely new explanation over the old and safe one. How much, is up to individuals themselves. And the new explanation is of course the one which you dont feel comfortable about because it fundamentally changes your view(s), the one new and breaking to your views in particular. We are still going throught the process of accepting something new to our world of how things should go, always will be. It'll always be a challenge, but not tackling up to it isn't gonna make it any easier, just harder the more you try to hold on to your old truth because someone, somewhere in the world is eventually bound to surpass you if you're wrong. And you're bound to be stuck to your place if you're wrong. That why I keep myself open to explanations that might shake up my worldviews completely, even if those who gave it had no proof whatsoever. I'm a big man now, I can get it myself, and I know to rather persuade them or subterfuge them to give me proof than go demand it without making any appealing argument for it, nor even making the effort to truly understand what it's all about, if I want someone to give it to me. Because it works better that way for the both of us, wastes less time and leaves both parties walking away happier.

Why waste your time even asking for proof if you aint that interested and know you ain't gonna get it?

Just thoughts I wanted to toss at you about this. Not saying you're in the wrong in all this, but your power doesn't extend to assume people would cater for your views of how things should work.

And if you were a more paranoid or suspecting person (sceptical) than me, you'd probably think this forum was full of debate-bots hired to mislead people and waste their time and energy if you shared my view on this, but I doubt it. Maybe here's some people hired to do that, but I believe just as many just dont think things this way and dont realise people can see things the way I do on this. And that you can't turn my head on this, unless you bring something with sincerity and without a backstabbing intent.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Mikko-kun

[Big Bad Voodoo]

World is magic. With a supreme effort of will you can pushed the unwanted pain. Once you notice something, you can never return to the time when you did not notice it. Then you ask yourself „How didnt I see this before?“ You was just not awared. Power of will is amazing. If you believe you can change something you realy can. But if you dont have power of will its all decided. Curiosity have own reason of existing. Otherwise it would not exist at all. If you tell someone to not open a box one will peak into box. Its human nature. And what is normal? To do only what the masses do? Or to follow your dream and heart. Why people feel anxiety? Because they not doing what heart told them. Dont listen inner being. Ofcourse we are not immune to all. Everything is interconnected. Everything is fated and the inevitable. World is not random. Things dont happen by randomness. There are no coincidences. Everything is interconnected. Even if you are lonely someone cares. Thats why we feel love and sorrow. And both we carry with us all the way. When you loose loving person you will always feel sorrow when remember that he/she isnt with us. There’s no such thing as an one sided connection. Everything is fated. There is reason why we two met on Internet. Science art religion are brenches of same tree. And its hard to understand all brenches. But if you understand seed, it easier to understand whole tree. When we learn we become specalize into one field as we learn-we learn one tiny part of it. That way we can never see whole picture. People forget about good things in life. Laugh, family, walk, sleep, love, friend, learning, kids, truth, loyality, respect for elders, forgivness, redemption, generousity, delicious food and finally hope. And guess what? They are all free. Humanity forget whats comfortable. We live in pain constantly not even noticing it. But if you become self awared of it, your life will be improved. You need to know yourself first. Remember -who looks outside dreams, who looks inside awakes. Worst thing in your life you can do its ignoring yourself. There are people who knows all about specific science yet they do not never meet themselves. And to even try to explain to person what he/she needs to do is hard because its hard to explain something what you can feel and he/she dont. Life is compesation. Everything you do and want, you have to pay the equal price. You want to be athlete looking you must spent hours in gym. If you kill someone you will pay for that life taking the burden which is hard and in the end which will burried you. Words have powers. Names have power. Insults can hurt you more then Katana. Sometimes you will need years to recover yourself from insults. We all have inner scars. We all have scars on bodies from childhood. And we all forget that our childhood friend who push us when we were playing ball. But body didnt forget. We have scars. And our souls have scars. Of words and evil deeds. We humans forget whats comfortable. We built unhumanic world. You must ask yourself how can bird built un-bird nest? Like we stop being humans. World is rotting. And world is rot because of us. We need to change that.

Big Bad Voodoo

Edited August 27, 2013 by Big Bad Voodoo

[Frank Merton]

I'll stick with "show me" and avoid the kool-aid.

[Mr Walker]

I'll stick with "show me" and avoid the kool-aid.

How do you know if it is kool aid or poison ?

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Hiw this coincidences be the product of randomness?

Bible code is set of hidden messages in Torah. Michael Drosnin book The Bible Code spoke about prophecies in Torah.

Big Bad Voodoo

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Scientists argued how 6th sense is prooven or how to built time machine...yet sceptics here are omniscience.

Big Bad Voodoo

[Einsteinium]

Hiw this coincidences be the product of randomness?

Bible code is set of hidden messages in Torah. Michael Drosnin book The Bible Code spoke about prophecies in Torah.

Big Bad Voodoo

Sorry to bust your bubble but the 'bible code' has been debunked many times. It IS randomness and can be proven to be such using statistics. In fact they applied the same thing to the novel Moby Dick and were able to find 'hidden codes' predicting the assassination of Ghandi and MLK jr. Furthermore these 'codes' never pedict anything, they are always found after the event and then said to have 'predicting' the event. Lost of so called 'prophesy' has been the result of this- finding something after the fact of an event and then altering history to make it appear that the 'prophecy' came before the event, when in fact the 'prophecy' came after the event, and then inserted into history to make it appear as though it came before the event, and thus were the priests and prophets of old able to keep their sway and credibility in front of the illiterate masses. Over time the deception became the written history, and the order of events was lost forever. This is of course my personal opinion regarding prophecy, but I have yet to hear of a prophecy that is literal, not cryptic and open to interpretation, that has come exactly true as it was originally stated in modern times.

[fullywired]

.

I have even won a few bets on the melbourne cup from tips given by " trees". IMO this is not the tree speaking to me, but a response form the cosmic consciousness, who/which responds using the tree as an avatar.

I must really acquire a "cosmic consciousness" does it work for the lottery?

fullywired

[Einsteinium]

How do you know if it is kool aid or poison ?

How do you know it is the 'cosmic consciousness' that is speaking to you, and not just a part of your own mind? Intuition can manifest itself in various different ways after all.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Sorry to bust your bubble but the 'bible code' has been debunked many times. It IS randomness and can be proven to be such using statistics. In fact they applied the same thing to the novel Moby Dick and were able to find 'hidden codes' predicting the assassination of Ghandi and MLK jr. Furthermore these 'codes' never pedict anything, they are always found after the event and then said to have 'predicting' the event. Lost of so called 'prophesy' has been the result of this- finding something after the fact of an event and then altering history to make it appear that the 'prophecy' came before the event, when in fact the 'prophecy' came after the event, and then inserted into history to make it appear as though it came before the event, and thus were the priests and prophets of old able to keep their sway and credibility in front of the illiterate masses. Over time the deception became the written history, and the order of events was lost forever. This is of course my personal opinion regarding prophecy, but I have yet to hear of a prophecy that is literal, not cryptic and open to interpretation, that has come exactly true as it was originally stated in modern times.

Thanks I see this now. Anyway you just bust one of my balloons. Im flying with dozens of them.

Big Bad Voodoo

[Mr Walker]

I must really acquire a "cosmic consciousness" does it work for the lottery?

fullywired

Absolutely. I make a small living from the lottery, and a bigger one from the pokies. For example following the advice of the cosmic consciousness. i invested a dollar change on the pokies last night and won $840 in one spin. In the last month I have made about $100 from the lottery, winning on average $25 per week ..

[Mr Walker]

How do you know it is the 'cosmic consciousness' that is speaking to you, and not just a part of your own mind? Intuition can manifest itself in various different ways after all.

Because an outside consciousness can provide abilities and evidences, knowledge etc. which cannot come from within a singular isolated mind no matter how clever and well educated. And one can use access to the cosmic consciousness to travel to places, to "meld" with other consciousnesses, and to learn many things. Evidences and proofs are essential to KNOW something, as opposed to believing it.

One of the greatest fallacies and restrictios facing humanity is the belief that we are individual/discrete beings with individual separate consciousnesses. This is demonstrably untrue as a hard and fast rule. Mind and body (from my experience)we are ALL a part of a much bigger entity and consiousness. (the other alernative is tha ti am unique or special and I have NEVER believed that. Human atributes can vary a lot (for expample i am slightly colour blind and tone deaf) but they are also held in common across humanity as part of our genetic and evolutionary makeup..

Edited September 6, 2013 by Mr Walker

[Frank Merton]

Absolutely. I make a small living from the lottery, and a bigger one from the pokies. For example following the advice of the cosmic consciousness. i invested a dollar change on the pokies last night and won $840 in one spin. In the last month I have made about $100 from the lottery, winning on average $25 per week ..

If what you say is true (and of course I suspect either pious fraud or self-delusion), you are cheating.

[Frank Merton]

Because an outside consciousness can provide abilities and evidences, knowledge etc. which cannot come from within a singular isolated mind no matter how clever and well educated. And one can use access to the cosmic consciousness to travel to places, to "meld" with other consciousnesses, and to learn many things. Evidences and proofs are essential to KNOW something, as opposed to believing it.

One of the greatest fallacies and restrictios facing humanity is the belief that we are individual/discrete beings with individual separate consciousnesses. This is demonstrably untrue as a hard and fast rule. Mind and body (from my experience)we are ALL a part of a much bigger entity and consiousness. (the other alernative is tha ti am unique or special and I have NEVER believed that. Human atributes can vary a lot (for expample i am slightly colour blind and tone deaf) but they are also held in common across humanity as part of our genetic and evolutionary makeup..

I don't think it's really possible to "know" anything if you are intellectually honest. The most you can say is that in your opinion something is extremely likely.

[Mr Walker]

I don't think it's really possible to "know" anything if you are intellectually honest. The most you can say is that in your opinion something is extremely likely.

I am not a fan of descartes. I think humans KNOW everything they experience The rest is a choice of belief. I KNOW my wife is alive. I know we are officially married And less reliably i KNOW her birth date. I know who her father and mother were, and what their house was like room by room. How could I NOT KNOW such things.

[Frank Merton]

I think you are just too dense to understand, because your responses seem utterly

I am not a fan of descartes. I think humans KNOW everything they experience The rest is a choice of belief. I KNOW my wife is alive. I know we are officially married And less reliably i KNOW her birth date. I know who her father and mother were, and what their house was like room by room. How could I NOT KNOW such things.

That just amazes me at how dense you are. I don't think you even try to understand what others are saying to you.

[Archangel Oger]

It doesn't work that way. That would be like me saying "show me proof that Unicorns don't breed with Wookies".

Nice "Image" BlueBomber"....lol

[Einsteinium]

Because an outside consciousness can provide abilities and evidences, knowledge etc. which cannot come from within a singular isolated mind no matter how clever and well educated. And one can use access to the cosmic consciousness to travel to places, to "meld" with other consciousnesses, and to learn many things. Evidences and proofs are essential to KNOW something, as opposed to believing it.

One of the greatest fallacies and restrictios facing humanity is the belief that we are individual/discrete beings with individual separate consciousnesses. This is demonstrably untrue as a hard and fast rule. Mind and body (from my experience)we are ALL a part of a much bigger entity and consiousness. (the other alernative is tha ti am unique or special and I have NEVER believed that. Human atributes can vary a lot (for expample i am slightly colour blind and tone deaf) but they are also held in common across humanity as part of our genetic and evolutionary makeup..

Are you sure you just have not been watching too much Star Trek? (Mind "meld", borg like interconnected super-consciousness)

You give yourself away when you say "from my experience" what you seem to not understand is that other people's experience directly and completely contradicts your own experience. And so therefore by your own logic that we can "know" things from our experience for certain, both your experiences, and their experiences, are therefore both correct. Which means that there exists simultaneously an outside consciousness that we are all a part of, and also that we are all separate discrete beings with separate and unique consciousness. That is what YOUR logic MUST conclude.

Unless you admit that some people are unable to KNOW things for certain, but then if you admit that, you also admit that there is no possible way for you to know if you are one of these people. This would therefore be your belief, that you are one who KNOWS, and that the others are ones who DO NOT KNOW. Because you see, other people have just as much 'evidence' from experience that they are separate discreet beings, as you have of being part of something bigger. Therefore either you are wrong, they are wrong, or in my opinion, you both are wrong. In which case, humans do not really KNOW all that much, and the very act of thinking you KNOW something for certain, is one of the greatest fallacies and restrictions facing humanity. To the extreme, Hitler thought he KNEW that the so called "Aryan race" was the supreme race and therefore should rule the world.

Keep an open mind. That is my philosophy

Edited September 6, 2013 by Einsteinium

[fullywired]

Absolutely. I make a small living from the lottery, and a bigger one from the pokies. For example following the advice of the cosmic consciousness. i invested a dollar change on the pokies last night and won $840 in one spin. In the last month I have made about $100 from the lottery, winning on average $25 per week ..

Please send me your Mojo

fullywired

[Mr Walker]

If what you say is true (and of course I suspect either pious fraud or self-delusion), you are cheating.

Why bother lying?

And "cheating" on the pokies or state lotto? I only wish. There are other posiblities, called pure dumb luck or coincidence, but that doesn't explain the concious external instructions i get on what numbers or machines to play, in order to win. I made a profit of $1300 on the weekend, starting with a one dollar bet, and used it to pay our water and electricity bills.

[Mr Walker]

Please send me your Mojo

fullywired

In my opinion (and it is only that) based on my own experiences, any human can do this. In the east it is known as extending ones chi or awareness. For me it is opening up my mind to the universe around me (especially but not inclusively the local environment) and then consciously applying, what I learn at a subconscious level. A rationalist might suggest possiblities, such as i subconsciously note the number of "cups" left alongside a pokie machine and realise that it has been played a lot, hence it MIGHT have a higher chance of paying out.

[Mr Walker]

Are you sure you just have not been watching too much Star Trek? (Mind "meld", borg like interconnected super-consciousness)

You give yourself away when you say "from my experience" what you seem to not understand is that other people's experience directly and completely contradicts your own experience. And so therefore by your own logic that we can "know" things from our experience for certain, both your experiences, and their experiences, are therefore both correct. Which means that there exists simultaneously an outside consciousness that we are all a part of, and also that we are all separate discrete beings with separate and unique consciousness. That is what YOUR logic MUST conclude.

Unless you admit that some people are unable to KNOW things for certain, but then if you admit that, you also admit that there is no possible way for you to know if you are one of these people. This would therefore be your belief, that you are one who KNOWS, and that the others are ones who DO NOT KNOW. Because you see, other people have just as much 'evidence' from experience that they are separate discreet beings, as you have of being part of something bigger. Therefore either you are wrong, they are wrong, or in my opinion, you both are wrong. In which case, humans do not really KNOW all that much, and the very act of thinking you KNOW something for certain, is one of the greatest fallacies and restrictions facing humanity. To the extreme, Hitler thought he KNEW that the so called "Aryan race" was the supreme race and therefore should rule the world.

Keep an open mind. That is my philosophy

One can only make logical extrapolations based on ones own evidences and experiences. Those of others can be used for comparison and evaluation but do not apply to an individual.

I use the term "mind meld" becaus e most people would recognise this term. It is a form of hive consciousness also where an individual mind cn both access the uiversal mind but also use the universal mind to link to any other conscious being in the universe. But i first met the cosmic consciousness as a young lad in the late 1950s, long befre star trek was written or thought of. My point is that,because i am totally a normal human being in mind and body, then anything i am capable of doing, so can most other humans (there may be some exceptions. For example while "normal" i cant see some colours very well or distinguish tones accurately while others can)

You are correc,t in that we have an individual mind and body BUT also are part of a greater mind and body, just as individual neurons are part of a larger human brain.

Ps where do you think writers GET ideas like the borg super consciousness or mind melding, from?

[Frank Merton]

Why bother lying?

And "cheating" on the pokies or state lotto? I only wish. There are other posiblities, called pure dumb luck or coincidence, but that doesn't explain the concious external instructions i get on what numbers or machines to play, in order to win. I made a profit of $1300 on the weekend, starting with a one dollar bet, and used it to pay our water and electricity bills.

It called pious fraud and we see a lot of it around. You make questionable personal claims to support an unbelievable assertion. It is not a very credible thing to do, and tends to get you ignored.

[Mr Walker]

I think you are just too dense to understand, because your responses seem utterly

That just amazes me at how dense you are. I don't think you even try to understand what others are saying to you.

Descartes claimed we could only KNOW that we existed and that all else was belief.

I do not accept that as a scientific reality or probability . When you say we cannot KNOW anything, you are factually incorrect. We can know almost anything of which we have personal experience.The rest we have to chose to accepet or reject via belief or trust; in science, books, experts, parents etc. If i don t understand what you are saying perhaps we are on differnt wavelenghts. i dont understand how you can claim that i cannot KNOW my wife exists. Take her age however I have her virth certificate but i have to trust its veracity to believe how old she is But i KNOW how old I am and how old my neices nephesws etc are becaus ei was born before them .