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Why do people get so mad when questioned ?


Sakari

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Because the human who can see is able to drive a car.

And I am able to find lost objects for people. So what?

How does the blind person know WHAT the person driving the car is, or is not doing?

Edited by Mr Walker
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Have you tried walking on water?? I seem to recall reading somewhere about a guy doing this

fullywired

Your memory is fading. I've explained before that I used to do this all the time. I even raced, danced, and performed other activities on a water surface . It just happened to be frozen at the time. :innocent:

Sking barefoot is the closest thing to really walking on water that i have exprienced, along with sail boarding and the modern sport of upright boarding, where you stand up on a board and paddle it around . I really loved surfing on a long board but the modern boards just weren't the same.

My dad made a set of what you might call "box skis" when we were young They were like mini plywood canoes about the size of water skis and totally enclosed which went on each foot. You could support yourself upright on calm water and paddle yourself around, but it took a lot of strenght in your leg and calf muscles to keep them together and propell them forward. Came in useful later, learning to snow ski. They were basically just submerged and to a person on the land it LOOKED like you were walking across the water

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Hey frank. I enjoy writing. I love words and communicating with people. If you use less words there is a danger people don't really understand you, or get where you are coming from.

I teach kids who never read or write a word unless someone makes them.

I feel sorry for all they are missing out on.

I read every post in a forum i am contributing to. But i am lucky that I read and type very quickly (with a few typing errors as a consequence)

If you get bored dont read my posts. I dont care (honestly) I do not enjoy boring people, but hopefully some people enjoy or get something from my posts.

If it makes you feel better, i am the same speaking to people. Maybe thats why I am a teacher. I can talk with people for hours and hours, and get well paid for it.

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And I am able to find lost objects for people. So what?

Occasionally you are able to find lost objects for people; see my quote above concerning the issues with anecdotal evidence, put together by someone else who has put a lot of study and hard work into knowing what he knows. I'm able to guess winning lottery numbers, occasionally. I'm able to sometimes know what song is going to next come on my radio, occasionally. I sometimes think of a person and they just happen to call me on the phone. But based on that, I don't take a gigantic leap into, "I have psychic powers", because it's not justified.

As I've said before, get your abilities tested, prove them to someone who is objective, there should be multiple scientists or grad students eager to be a part of demonstrating these abilities to the world. If we arranged for you to meet 100 people who have lost things, what is your expectiation of how many of those lost things you can find for people just using your mind? If you failed every single one, I doubt it would make any difference to you, the powers just weren't working that day; this is the same line fed by supposed psychics, telepaths, and speakers with the dead for a long time now as an excuse why their powers don't work when tested.

How does the blind person know WHAT the person driving the car is, or is not doing?

The blind person could feel and turn the steering wheel and experiment with the pedals of the car to determine that they have an effect on his motion, he's probably noticed that we have these huge slabs of pavement for some purpose, but anyway what difference does it really make what the driver is doing? The blind person starts at his house, sits down in something that then starts moving, rolls down the window and feels the air being blown past, and in an hour is at the beach. I'd say that's pretty good evidence for the blind person that vision exists, what other explanation is there? Why does the blind person think people have two eyes on their head that have no actual purpose if no one has sight?

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I am sorry, but what ARE "scientific conditions? I 've done this in a science lab with scientists present. Does that count? I've done it using scientific control mechanisms. Does that count?

Where was this done? What are the names of the scientists who carried out the experiments? Where is their report published?

In the 70's a couple of material scientists unfamiliar with human behavior attempted to perform experiments on ESP subjects. The experiments were so uncontrolled that the subjects found no problem fooling them into believing actual ESP was happening. They would have concluded that magic tricks were done by ESP.

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Fraudsters have little choice but to get verbose and personal. It is funny to watch. One wonders if it is believed or just done for attention; either way it can be disreagarded if there are no genuine scientific tests involved.

Most of the time peope who become convinced they have ESP abilities ("powers") simply are fooling themselves and don't understand the notion of coincidence. This is also why the reports of the phenomenon are so hard to reproduce in a controlled setting.

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I have little experience with you sakari but in that little experience I have seen people talk about something that happened to them and you claim what happened to be false because they cant proove it to you. This could be upsetting to that person because it seems to them you are invalidating what theyve said, a thing that is very important to them.. That has nothing to do with belief but rather experience. I have had people follow me to other topics too who continue to criticize me for experiences I had or beliefs I have on a whole other thread so I understand you irritations. Humans seem to have some part of their biologic make up that wants to impose what they think on other people. From what j have seen from you you dont seem to be exempt from that.. but maybe your changing or maybe I just got that impression from you in the past...

I dont know but just leave the petty people alone. I think in the end they feel stupid anyway especially when they're left talking to themselves.

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People can claim anything, and so I think it is perfectly valid to claim that something someone has claimed is false. Frankly I don't do that much, or at least nearly as much as I think it.

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I dislike being questioned by people that are just doing it because they think your POV must be wrong, and apparently they are going to show you the error of your ways. They are absolutely not interested in learning anything (which is given away by their smug smiles) and that think their questions is the best concealed argument ever. Oh, and they get offended if you say you have already explained it many times. They're obviously entitled to your own time, of course!

Other than that, I'm pretty open to discussion.

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People get offended all the time; I usually look for some way to read what they post in a way that doesn't sound like that. It's no skin off my nose if they are offended or not, but if it is my objetive to reach them I need to work around it.

Why do they get offended? Ego I suppose, but it doesn't matter.

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Your memory is fading. I've explained before that I used to do this all the time. I even raced, danced, and performed other activities on a water surface . It just happened to be frozen at the time. :innocent:

Sking barefoot is the closest thing to really walking on water that i have exprienced, along with sail boarding and the modern sport of upright boarding, where you stand up on a board and paddle it around . I really loved surfing on a long board but the modern boards just weren't the same.

My dad made a set of what you might call "box skis" when we were young They were like mini plywood canoes about the size of water skis and totally enclosed which went on each foot. You could support yourself upright on calm water and paddle yourself around, but it took a lot of strenght in your leg and calf muscles to keep them together and propell them forward. Came in useful later, learning to snow ski. They were basically just submerged and to a person on the land it LOOKED like you were walking across the water

If there is a God then he is grossly unfair ,he has bestowed all these talents on you ,whilst my own achievements pale into insignificance,,so insignificant that I scarcely dare mention them, except to mention that I am an authority on wirebags and second favourites

If there are any spelling mistakes or grammatical mistakes , I must apologise but it is Saturday night in my part of the world and I have had a few beverages

fullywired :st

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I suspect God is fair; just other things sometimes get exaggerated.

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Maybe people get angry when questioned because it FEELS like they themselves are being called into question, instead of their beliefs or opinions, and are unable to separate the two or unable to tell the difference between the two. Some of us identify very strongly with our belief systems, others know that beliefs, opinions, and experiences continue to grow, so those beliefs don't become so embedded as a means of self-identification. About every time I think I KNOW what's going on, something happens to make me look like a total a##. In some ways I admire people's certainties, but at the same time those people make me really nervous because they're so fixed on what they know to be true they are unable to recognize or identify an action, occurrence, behavior, that's outside their belief system, which makes them potentially dangerous. Basically, I think the anger stems from insecurity.

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I have little experience with you sakari but in that little experience I have seen people talk about something that happened to them and you claim what happened to be false because they cant proove it to you. This could be upsetting to that person because it seems to them you are invalidating what theyve said, a thing that is very important to them.. That has nothing to do with belief but rather experience. I have had people follow me to other topics too who continue to criticize me for experiences I had or beliefs I have on a whole other thread so I understand you irritations. Humans seem to have some part of their biologic make up that wants to impose what they think on other people. From what j have seen from you you dont seem to be exempt from that.. but maybe your changing or maybe I just got that impression from you in the past...

I dont know but just leave the petty people alone. I think in the end they feel stupid anyway especially when they're left talking to themselves.

Spiritwriter....

I do not say that to every claim. If someone says " I believe I saw a Ghost " I do not say I do not believe them. It is the ones that claim they talk to them, summon them, see them all the time, etc...

I do not rip on people because they believe in something. It is when people claim things that can be proven, but all ways have an excuse.

I have experienced things I can not explain.

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I tend to be confrontational at the slightest hint of sarcasm or hate posted sometimes not even in reply to me.....Im a veteran of the Myspace forums and they scarred me for life...but this place isn't as bad once settled in and understand a little of the temperaments of regular members...I think therefore that newbies maybe have hang ups from other forums

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Spiritwriter....

I do not say that to every claim. If someone says " I believe I saw a Ghost " I do not say I do not believe them. It is the ones that claim they talk to them, summon them, see them all the time, etc...

I do not rip on people because they believe in something. It is when people claim things that can be proven, but all ways have an excuse.

I have experienced things I can not explain.

Ok Sakari..

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It's not just religion that people believe or disbelieve in. There are people out there that don't think the Apollo moon landings

or even the Holocaust ever happened. Even if these events are more recent then the bible. It comes down to what a person

chooses to believe in based on what they hear or read about from a source.

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Occasionally you are able to find lost objects for people; see my quote above concerning the issues with anecdotal evidence, put together by someone else who has put a lot of study and hard work into knowing what he knows. I'm able to guess winning lottery numbers, occasionally. I'm able to sometimes know what song is going to next come on my radio, occasionally. I sometimes think of a person and they just happen to call me on the phone. But based on that, I don't take a gigantic leap into, "I have psychic powers", because it's not justified.

As I've said before, get your abilities tested, prove them to someone who is objective, there should be multiple scientists or grad students eager to be a part of demonstrating these abilities to the world. If we arranged for you to meet 100 people who have lost things, what is your expectiation of how many of those lost things you can find for people just using your mind? If you failed every single one, I doubt it would make any difference to you, the powers just weren't working that day; this is the same line fed by supposed psychics, telepaths, and speakers with the dead for a long time now as an excuse why their powers don't work when tested.

The blind person could feel and turn the steering wheel and experiment with the pedals of the car to determine that they have an effect on his motion, he's probably noticed that we have these huge slabs of pavement for some purpose, but anyway what difference does it really make what the driver is doing? The blind person starts at his house, sits down in something that then starts moving, rolls down the window and feels the air being blown past, and in an hour is at the beach. I'd say that's pretty good evidence for the blind person that vision exists, what other explanation is there? Why does the blind person think people have two eyes on their head that have no actual purpose if no one has sight?

Now compare your answers to the two bits of this post.

A person without paranormal abilities knows what I am doing in the same way that the blind person knows what the car driver is doing. While a blind person cannot drive, they can understand and appreciate being driven. And my point is, that if telepathy is not possible between humans, then I should NEVER ever (not once) be able to directly connect to what is in anothers persons mind and know it as clealry as they know it themsleves.

Not once let alone dozens of times. The fact that I have, on dozens of occasions, very accurately and clearly, with multiple witnesses, and in way which is otherwise inexplicable, demonstrates the case for telepathy. (Now we just have to understand its mechanisms better, and perhaps use scientific understanding and technology to make it consistently workable.

In two generations (50 years) given current scientific progress, we will have humans talking mind to mind every day. The argument tha telepathy is a normal ttribute of humnaity is not measurable by how many times it does not work, but if it works at all.

To take comparable examples You only need one savant in music, numeracy, or reading/memory to demonstrate that each of these abilities is within the potential range of natural human ability. From there, science can work to make every human capable of eidetic memory, playing a song/tune perfectly from memory, remembering all the names addresses and phone numbers in a phone book or multiplying 3 7 digit numbers in their head, in a second or two. And in the not too distant future, a combination of biotechnology and artificial memory enhancement will make all humans, so capable.

The staistical chance of winning something on lotterys is not that low. I won every entry i put in over the last two months making a profit over about 150 dollars. Guessing a song about to come up on the radio is a little more statisticaly difficult, but stil quite possible and you would often be wrong if you guessed regularly I imagine

But KNOWING that a person's phone is in a red bag, on top of some lockers, in a room you have not been into, and therefore did not know that there were either lockers or a red bag within it, when it could have been anywhere? I do not comprehend how i could know that as clearly as i knew what shoes i was wearing that day.

And if it was a guess in a billion, then how could i continue to know such things, regulalry over 50 years? to the point where peole come to me to find stolen and lost objects.

I sometimes do not know where something is and i just tell people who seek my help, that.

Often neither their mind nor anyone else's has any idea where the object is. But, if a nearby mind knows subconsciously where a lost or stolen object is located. then more often than not, i will also know exactly where it is.

Ps this is only one type of telepathy but it is among the most easily measurable and confimable, because the object is located where i knew it was. To use past history. If you gave me 100 people who had lost something id locate it about 70 to 80 percent of the timeThe rst of the peole would not be able to help me because they really had mo idea in their mind where they had put it Locating stolen objects is harder You need the thief present not the victim, because the thief knows where the object is But givent he resence of the thief the succes percentage goes up to nearly 100 percent because the thef is very comsciously awre of where he/she placed the object. (as withe mobile phone) That was one of the clearest and definite "bits of knowledge" ever to come to me and it came instantly because the guilty part was right there when the question was asked.

I often find things for students which other students have "stolen" and hidden. Sometimes it is a joke sometimes serious and often it is a game we play to see if can know where the object is located. They also hide themselves in a bulding at lunch time and i have to walk in and locate where they are by their thoughts. I always do

It works for me too, I once got back to my car after a 5 k walk on the beach to find that my kpeys had dropped out of a hole in my pocket. I just "visualised" my own mind /knowledge and knew right where they were, but i had to run because the tide was coming in they were right up the end of the beach and they were jus tgetting covered up by incoming sand and water.

I've never "lost" anything in the last 50 years of my life, because I always know subconsciously where it went to, and just look into my subconscious to locate it. This includes a time i had 500 dollars sitting on the back seat of our 4 wd. I drove 50 ks home to find out that 200 dollars had blown out the window which had been open about 6 inches to give our dog some air. I "knew " where the notes were and although i had to drive back 40 of the fifty ks and it was dark by then, I located 3 of the four notes in small bushes along a stretch of road about 50 metres in length, but one escaped me. It had blown into a neighbouring paddock behind a barbed wire fence. It wasnt lost I just couldnt get to it, and wrote it off to experience.

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Where was this done? What are the names of the scientists who carried out the experiments? Where is their report published?

In the 70's a couple of material scientists unfamiliar with human behavior attempted to perform experiments on ESP subjects. The experiments were so uncontrolled that the subjects found no problem fooling them into believing actual ESP was happening. They would have concluded that magic tricks were done by ESP.

While completelytruthful, I was being facetious for exactly the reasons you outline. Exactly how does science prove something is possible given the conditions it imposes on the experiments undertaken. It only works for science when the experiments work. And science has its own exceptionally high standards of proof, and rightly so, because it is dangerous to get it wrong in science

I am not trying to trick anyone and i dont care what people think. I do not need scence to confirm the reality of my abilities because they work so well that they define my life.

I never needed science to confirm that i had got it right when i put together a workable explosive or rocket propellant and igniter , because the "bombs" exploded and blew thngs up, and the rockets took off into the air and travelled a kilometer or so (all done from inside my head, and reading and experimentation, while i was about 14 (and by the way that was back in the early 1960s when this sort of creativity was expected and indeed encouraged of a boy child, but on the other hand was much more of a challenge than in the days of the internet.) My lab was on the side verandah of our house and all the chemicals etc were stored in an ancient kitchen cabinet. We lived in town but on a very large block of land.

NO ONE should need science to confirm or verify what they know from experience. Otherwise, first they can't operate in the real world, and second there is something wrong with a person with so little faith in their abilty to discern reality and operate effectively within it. No one needs science to understand and operate within the effects of gravity, or the presence of oxygen, for example. We learn to do this from birth, or we die

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Fraudsters have little choice but to get verbose and personal. It is funny to watch. One wonders if it is believed or just done for attention; either way it can be disreagarded if there are no genuine scientific tests involved.

Most of the time peope who become convinced they have ESP abilities ("powers") simply are fooling themselves and don't understand the notion of coincidence. This is also why the reports of the phenomenon are so hard to reproduce in a controlled setting.

Non fraudsters need to give detailed, lengthy explanations, narratives and supporting evidences, to have any hope of getting people to believethem And no. Disregard anecdotal and experintial knowledge at your peril you will miss some very real amd powerful elamts of human abilities And it is the way early science evolved and scientists operated. Observation recording experimentation, hypotheses, analysis, extrapolation more experimentaion etc.

Use the basics of scientific method and you can achieve almost anything. And you do NOT need "A scientist" to confirm what you have found to be true, unless you do not trust your own skills data and methodology. You should not need to doubt your abilities if your results bear up to logical examination.

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People get offended all the time; I usually look for some way to read what they post in a way that doesn't sound like that. It's no skin off my nose if they are offended or not, but if it is my objetive to reach them I need to work around it.

Why do they get offended? Ego I suppose, but it doesn't matter.

yes, ego I think. But sometimes genuine concern for others . WE all have the choice in how we respond, emotionally or intellectually. No one can make me angry or hurt or offended unless i chose to be. Sometimes i MIGHT chose to be, because there are very good reasons to do so, but it is ALWAYS my choice.

Heck, one of the first sayings drummed into me as a toddler was "words can never hurt you" and they never have. They just give an inkling of the character of the person speaking them, which can sometimes be quite advantageous in real life.

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It's not just religion that people believe or disbelieve in. There are people out there that don't think the Apollo moon landings

or even the Holocaust ever happened. Even if these events are more recent then the bible. It comes down to what a person

chooses to believe in based on what they hear or read about from a source.

Often because in chosing that belief they are confirming other sptrongly held beliefs or prejudices. eg the people who believe 9/11 was a govt plot to gain greatercontrol over american citizens would already be predisposed to see their govt in that light.

Thank god for Jack Reacher.

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While completelytruthful, I was being facetious for exactly the reasons you outline.

If you were being "completely truthful" then answer my questions. If you can't answer them then admit that you were lying about having your telepathic powers verified under scientific conditions.

This is why I rarely read anything you write. You make bold statements and hope no one challenges you on them. When someone does, you retreat leaving a long trail of defensive verbiage, the whole time claiming you don't care what anybody thinks.

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Now compare your answers to the two bits of this post.

A person without paranormal abilities knows what I am doing in the same way that the blind person knows what the car driver is doing. While a blind person cannot drive, they can understand and appreciate being driven. And my point is, that if telepathy is not possible between humans, then I should NEVER ever (not once) be able to directly connect to what is in anothers persons mind and know it as clealry as they know it themsleves.

As I've said multiple times, the issue is that you are just assuming what I am disputing, that you have telepathy. It is entirely unsurprising that you and many others claim that they can directly connect to another's mind and 'know it as clearly as they know it themselves', however you are measuring that. It is unsurprising that people believe that they are able to directly connect to another's mind. It's like you and I exist in two different worlds sometimes, like you don't live in a world where many people make certain claims of special or unusual powers or experiences that when put to a proper test, do not pan out. Ever.

The argument tha telepathy is a normal ttribute of humnaity is not measurable by how many times it does not work, but if it works at all.

Your kind of telepathy, without physical interaction, has never been shown to work to date nor has it ever been convincingly demonstrated.

I often find things for students which other students have "stolen" and hidden. Sometimes it is a joke sometimes serious and often it is a game we play to see if can know where the object is located. They also hide themselves in a bulding at lunch time and i have to walk in and locate where they are by their thoughts. I always do

Great! You now have a testable claim, there is no excuse for you not to get it tested, the demonstration of the existence of these abilities will be a boon for several areas of scientific research and should be able to assist mental health providers with the care they give. Do you have science teachers at your school? I recommend they contact a university to have a proper blind test conducted of your abilities, one where you personally are not involved in evaluating how accurate your abilities are. Let me know how that goes, although I'll probably see it as it should be the top news story if you can actually do what you claim.

I've never "lost" anything in the last 50 years of my life, because I always know subconsciously where it went to, and just look into my subconscious to locate it. This includes a time i had 500 dollars sitting on the back seat of our 4 wd. I drove 50 ks home to find out that 200 dollars had blown out the window which had been open about 6 inches to give our dog some air. I "knew " where the notes were and although i had to drive back 40 of the fifty ks and it was dark by then, I located 3 of the four notes in small bushes along a stretch of road about 50 metres in length, but one escaped me. It had blown into a neighbouring paddock behind a barbed wire fence. It wasnt lost I just couldnt get to it, and wrote it off to experience.

I find it difficult to swallow this story as I can think of no valid rational reason why someone would be so careless to just leave 500 dollars in cash just sitting on the backseat of their car, with their dog no less, who then forgets about that when they open up the window. What, you don't have pockets? But thanks for laying to rest your earlier statements about what a highly-trained mind you possess, it appears that it is not very reliable after all and is susceptible to doing the stupid and forgetful things that we all do from time to time.

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As I've said multiple times, the issue is that you are just assuming what I am disputing, that you have telepathy. It is entirely unsurprising that you and many others claim that they can directly connect to another's mind and 'know it as clearly as they know it themselves', however you are measuring that. It is unsurprising that people believe that they are able to directly connect to another's mind. It's like you and I exist in two different worlds sometimes, like you don't live in a world where many people make certain claims of special or unusual powers or experiences that when put to a proper test, do not pan out. Ever.

Your kind of telepathy, without physical interaction, has never been shown to work to date nor has it ever been convincingly demonstrated.

Great! You now have a testable claim, there is no excuse for you not to get it tested, the demonstration of the existence of these abilities will be a boon for several areas of scientific research and should be able to assist mental health providers with the care they give. Do you have science teachers at your school? I recommend they contact a university to have a proper blind test conducted of your abilities, one where you personally are not involved in evaluating how accurate your abilities are. Let me know how that goes, although I'll probably see it as it should be the top news story if you can actually do what you claim.

I find it difficult to swallow this story as I can think of no valid rational reason why someone would be so careless to just leave 500 dollars in cash just sitting on the backseat of their car, with their dog no less, who then forgets about that when they open up the window. What, you don't have pockets? But thanks for laying to rest your earlier statements about what a highly-trained mind you possess, it appears that it is not very reliable after all and is susceptible to doing the stupid and forgetful things that we all do from time to time.

**** happens. I had $900 in my hand to give to an employee because I was out of checks. I was thinking and thumbing the seal where the window goes down into the door. I was lost in thought then I noticed the $900 was gone. I got out looked for it, in the ground, the car, for the life of me I couldn't figure out where it went. I can't tell you how frustrated I was. Latter that night after classes I sat down to meditate about it. I could see the money in a dark place surrounded by mechanical looking parts. I zoomed out and it was inside my car door. Which made sense because while thinking I was thumbing the rubber seams with my window open. The next morning I took the door apart and sure enough the money was scattered around deep inside the door.

How's that for an anecdote. I may be the only person on earth that has lost $900 down a car door, I think MWs anecdote is more than plausible.

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