NSA Requests ALL Phone Records From Verizon

[Frank Merton]

The man revealed "Top Secret" documents, not just ordinary "classified" material. He may be brave but not admirably so but arrogantly and foolishly so.

[Tata Rompe Pecho]

Scoffing still.

Not many think this is the ultimate scandal or conspiracy theory either. Our security and intelligence apparatus is not proof of tyranny. Enjoy life or not is still everyone's choice. Being paanoid or not is still everyone's choice. Guess what some of us are choosing?

It is not paranoia or theory when they have openly admitted to doing it. We are not the ones making decisions to feel miserable, we are being made to feel miserable by our government conspiring against our rights. These rights are not just words on a paper, they are a literary guarantee that we will be able to maintain a specific way of life, signed in the blood of our fallen loved ones. You can say it is our choice to be paranoid, but you seem to not grasp that these actions are the very essence of our government voiding the very way of life we empowered them to protect.

Edited June 10, 2013 by xFelix

[Clarakore]

Grasping and dismissing such notions.

It becomes conspiracy theory when what is openly admitted is augmented with claims of tyranny. Only the paranoid are claiming tyranny, that is not openly admitted because it is not happening (realistic view), but we have those claiming it is not openly admitted because it is part of a secret plan to take us over (conspiracy theory view).

All that is openly admitted is that intelligence operations are happening. Some of us approve. Expect the masses to sleep on this one, quite comfortably knowing someone is out there stopping the bad guys.

[Orcseeker]

Scoffing still.

Not many think this is the ultimate scandal or conspiracy theory either. Our security and intelligence apparatus is not proof of tyranny. Enjoy life or not is still everyone's choice. Being paanoid or not is still everyone's choice. Guess what some of us are choosing?

Are you kidding me?

Have you not seen the laws and such passed through the government. The lack of integrity of the leaders? The atrocities and lower quality of life over the general populace resulting from the agendas of those in power.

You are telling me right there to live in ignorance in order to be happy. That is not even possible when these laws and ripples from the effects of such dealings within that government directly affect myself and everyone else. I'd have to choose to be delusional to "enjoy life". Because I can't stand by and watch all this happening without trying to do something about it. Now or later.

You must live in a bubble. Do you even know what the distribution of wealth is like in the US? Wake up to yourself.

[Clarakore]

Life is better for me than it was for my parents. Better for them than it was for their parents. So enjoying it, fully!!! As much as possible.

Life is much better now for me personally that I have abandoned conspiracy theories. Oh, that they would round us up, FEMA camps, believed them all. What a horrible time it was then and so unrealistic. What a waste of life energy dwelling on those.

That was before it was a mass industry and entertainment product as they are now. Some are profiting on the misery of CTers. Back then only Christian fundamentalists and white nationalists believed in conspiracy theories. I belonged to the first group. Really these things are old, that international bankers are trying to destroy the county is as old as 500 years, that CT was invented in Spain because after the Reconquista they gave the Jews three choices: convert, leave or die. Those who stayed and converted were only allowed certain jobs. One was money handling, seen beneath the regular Spanish citizenry. Who knew international banking would be so influential. As Spanish fortunes waned and English ones rose they blamed the Jewish converts (New Conversos).

Once I learned the history of conspiracy theory, it was time, count me out of the paranoid party guys. Life is too awesome. It will continue. And in a 100 years historians will look back and wonder why some believed in them. This also helped me: http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200909/field-guide-the-conspiracy-theorist-dark-minds

Once I ranked myself as a person susceptible to conspiracy theories (ranked high on the test when I first took it) I knew it was time to abandon them in favor of life. Guess what, I was afraid to have kids, to bring them into this world, what a shame. At least I will be a more responsible and mature parent. My children are growing up to trust in academia and government. Conspiracy theories not required.

[Orcseeker]

Life is better for me than it was for my parents. Better for them than it was for their parents. So enjoying it, fully!!! As much as possible.

Life is much better now for me personally that I have abandoned conspiracy theories. Oh, that they would round us up, FEMA camps, believed them all. What a horrible time it was then and so unrealistic. What a waste of life energy dwelling on those.

That was before it was a mass industry and entertainment product as they are now. Some are profiting on the misery of CTers. Back then only Christian fundamentalists and white nationalists believed in conspiracy theories. I belonged to the first group. Really these things are old, that international bankers are trying to destroy the county is as old as 500 years, that CT was invented in Spain because after the Reconquista they gave the Jews three choices: convert, leave or die. Those who stayed and converted were only allowed certain jobs. One was money handling, seen beneath the regular Spanish citizenry. Who knew international banking would be so influential. As Spanish fortunes waned and English ones rose they blamed the Jewish converts (New Conversos).

Once I learned the history of conspiracy theory, it was time, count me out of the paranoid party guys. Life is too awesome. It will continue. And in a 100 years historians will look back and wonder why some believed in them. This also helped me: http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200909/field-guide-the-conspiracy-theorist-dark-minds

Once I ranked myself as a person susceptible to conspiracy theories (ranked high on the test when I first took it) I knew it was time to abandon them in favor of life. Guess what, I was afraid to have kids, to bring them into this world, what a shame. At least I will be a more responsible and mature parent. My children are growing up to trust in academia and government. Conspiracy theories not required.

... And?

An unjust government exists. Problem acquired. Regardless of conspiracy theories present. Solution required.

You stand by a government that falls back on its word. Flip flops like no tomorrow. Displays levels of corruption that negatively affect many innocent civilians?

We need to change that structure.

I'm simply looking at the facts that are readily available to anyone and on those alone. I don't think that facts are implemented for the best interests of the populace.

The distribution of wealth is terribly and unhealthy skewed against the bulk of the populace in the US.

Are you OK with all this?

[Clarakore]

Not trusting in the solutions of conspiracy theorists but elucidate, what is your solution?

Flip flopping is the view of one who does not understand the intricacies of democracy, how even one administration can change course, because of competing factions all having to cooperate at the same time.

Change for me comes via progressive politics not paranoid delusions of rebellion.

Others are looking at the same facts but translating them with different conclusions.

Again progressive measures are needed to balance the disparity, this is just one solution of many, the one preferred by myself. If you have another share, don't expect any one solution to dominate. The difference between those on the top and those on the bottom never remain static anyway. This is not the first time in history and it won't remain like this forever.

I am OK with the world, our government, and life in general because we have sensible mechanisms of change.

Life is better now than it was 1000 years ago and will be better in 1000 years. Progress is slow, it is not about speed but direction.

We will have to agree to disagree but even if others cannot here, I can, and so can many others in other quarters.

Edited June 10, 2013 by The world needs you

[Frank Merton]

I think you hit about the right note. The paranoia and irrational conclusions about government behavior serve no end and strike me as dangerous if actually acted on.

[Clarakore]

More dangerous to the individual as they waste their own potential.

When it comes to the dangers they pose toward society, I also trust enough in our government to handle that threat.

The most damage comes to the individual, their own life, and the lives of those immediately around them. Paranoia and complaint does not make for happy campers.

[Orcseeker]

Not trusting in the solutions of conspiracy theorists but elucidate, what is your solution?

Flip flopping is the view of one who does not understand the intricacies of democracy, how even one administration can change course, because of competing factions all having to cooperate at the same time.

Change for me comes via progressive politics not paranoid delusions of rebellion.

Others are looking at the same facts but translating them with different conclusions.

Again progressive measures are needed to balance the disparity, this is just one solution of many, the one preferred by myself. If you have another share, don't expect any one solution to dominate. The difference between those on the top and those on the bottom never remain static anyway. This is not the first time in history and it won't remain like this forever.

I am OK with the world, our government, and life in general because we have sensible mechanisms of change.

Life is better now than it was 1000 years ago and will be better in 1000 years. Progress is slow, it is not about speed but direction.

We will have to agree to disagree but even if others cannot here, I can, and so can many others in other quarters.

I only see conspiracy theories as an extension to what possible corruption has led that in power to possibly perform.

I understand very well. Though from recent news. To have the leader representative claim the patriot act is invasive and such to extend from that against after recent surveys reveal not what the populace wants. That is not the flip flopping one initially was elected into party for. And seemingly not in the best interests of the populace.

And did I ever offer the resolve of rebellion? A COMPLETE reform is required. Officials stand by while those who asks for help in Benghazi are KILLED because of the refusal to provide aid which would have been adequate and resulted in lives saved. Hilary has not been stood down despite being partly responsible for the deaths of people.

Do we need Hilary to publically slash some innocent civilians throat for any action to be taken against her?

Those who walked away from the GFC will millions under their arms after running their companies to the ground have returned to their jobs. The privatisation of partitions that should NOT be privatised such as jails and even the control of a nations flow of wealth that has only caused huge problems.

I could continue but we need to change the way things operate. Not yelling conspiracies or rebellion. But the old system in favour of extreme capitalism fails us time and time again. Why support it?

You're probably not aware of the types of people we have in control of these things. The CEO of Nestlé voiced his opinion about the privatisation of water sources. You can see and hear the elitist stance he is taking when he say the masses believe it is their "public right", which it should be, to water sources.

The others are not that much different. But by all means, polish their shoes after they kick dirt in your face.

You'll probably notice the influence corporations have over the law already. Loopholes to avoid taxes being paid. People being charged more than the offence of actually killing someone due to "inflicting" upon profits. It's really all in front of you. Read it, see it and hear it.

You argue that our lives were better than our parents. Does this justify this level of injustice? Especially when we have the means and ability to do so. Why not discourage such regressive behaviour and actions in the eyes of a better society?

[Clarakore]

Great then because we can agree in certain key areas including how conspiracy theories and rebel yells will not ultimately help or change in the areas where both is required.

Consider me on board as being concerned over the erosion of rights including the public right.

This of course is an old age query because while we all can applaud the principles in the Magna Carta , the Great Charter, how many of us remember the Charter of the Forests? The latter has been assailed and continues to be as noted by your analogy of the attitude of Nestlé's CEO.

Blackstone’s edition actually includes two charters. It was entitled The Great Charter and the Charter of the Forest. The first, the Charter of Liberties, is widely recognized to be the foundation of the fundamental rights of the English-speaking peoples -- or as Winston Churchill put it more expansively, “the charter of every self-respecting man at any time in any land.” Churchill was referring specifically to the reaffirmation of the Charter by Parliament in the Petition of Right, imploring King Charles to recognize that the law is sovereign, not the King. Charles agreed briefly, but soon violated his pledge, setting the stage for the murderous Civil War.

After a bitter conflict between King and Parliament, the power of royalty in the person of Charles II was restored. In defeat, Magna Carta was not forgotten. One of the leaders of Parliament, Henry Vane, was beheaded. On the scaffold, he tried to read a speech denouncing the sentence as a violation of Magna Carta, but was drowned out by trumpets to ensure that such scandalous words would not be heard by the cheering crowds. His major crime had been to draft a petition calling the people “the original of all just power” in civil society -- not the King, not even God. That was the position that had been strongly advocated by Roger Williams, the founder of the first free society in what is now the state of Rhode Island. His heretical views influenced Milton and Locke, though Williams went much farther, founding the modern doctrine of separation of church and state, still much contested even in the liberal democracies.

*snip*

The Second Charter and the Commons

The significance of the companion charter, the Charter of the Forest, is no less profound and perhaps even more pertinent today -- as explored in depth by Peter Linebaugh in his richly documented and stimulating history of Magna Carta and its later trajectory. The Charter of the Forest demanded protection of the commons from external power. The commons were the source of sustenance for the general population: their fuel, their food, their construction materials, whatever was essential for life. The forest was no primitive wilderness. It had been carefully developed over generations, maintained in common, its riches available to all, and preserved for future generations -- practices found today primarily in traditional societies that are under threat throughout the world.

The Charter of the Forest imposed limits to privatization. The Robin Hood myths capture the essence of its concerns (and it is not too surprising that the popular TV series of the 1950s, “The Adventures of Robin Hood,” was written anonymously by Hollywood screenwriters blacklisted for leftist convictions). By the seventeenth century, however, this Charter had fallen victim to the rise of the commodity economy and capitalist practice and morality.

With the commons no longer protected for cooperative nurturing and use, the rights of the common people were restricted to what could not be privatized, a category that continues to shrink to virtual invisibility. In Bolivia, the attempt to privatize water was, in the end, beaten back by an uprising that brought the indigenous majority to power for the first time in history...

*snip*

Destroying the Commons: How the Magna Carta Became a Minor Carta by Noam Chomsky

As can be seen in the final paragraph in the quote above the privatizing of water was beaten back in Bolivia (and through the mechanisms of democracy). This is why I am not up in arms but instead am interested in gradual change, redress, and balance.

As seen in red bold above, especially the underlined portion, we can be well aware "the commons" has largely been eroded since the 1600s. History reveals this is not something sudden and that we can also change it (as in Bolivia).

So any threats to the principles in the Magna Carta and the longtime erosion to the Charter of the Forest can be countered, in due time, but not through rabble rousing or conspiracy theory generation.

What most concerns me are privatization to schools (recent) and healthcare (which has been with us for a while). Privatization of our police (coming unless we stop it) and prisons (recent) are also greatly concerning. Still, no need for conspiracy theory here, just a study of history and a calm approach.

Edited June 10, 2013 by The world needs you

[Babe Ruth]

Scoffing still.

Not many think this is the ultimate scandal or conspiracy theory either. Our security and intelligence apparatus is not proof of tyranny. Enjoy life or not is still everyone's choice. Being paanoid or not is still everyone's choice. Guess what some of us are choosing?

It is proof of tyranny, or at least illegal government actions, ONLY if one accepts the US Constitution as binding.

If one is not really into the rule of law, and a government that governs in accordance with its founding document, then sure, tyranny and government crimes cannot exist. The government is beneficent, and the more of it we have, the better off we are. Strange delusions, but oh so popular these days.

[Kowalski]

It is proof of tyranny, or at least illegal government actions, ONLY if one accepts the US Constitution as binding.

If one is not really into the rule of law, and a government that governs in accordance with its founding document, then sure, tyranny and government crimes cannot exist. The government is beneficent, and the more of it we have, the better off we are. Strange delusions, but oh so popular these days.

Only popular among the minority of sheeple....

[Dark_Grey]

I don't understand how the word "conspiracy" is still being thrown aroundthis story

They ARE logging everything you do online

They ARE monitoring your phone calls

The people who aren't bothered by what the government does, are always the people who just haven't felt effected by it. As long as you have whatever little scraps are kicked down to you, you smile and think how lucky you are to live in a "free country". Meanwhile, the banks collaborate on hiking your mortgage rates, the energy companies tighten their grip to squeeze a little more out of you, you pay for your gas with credit because your bills are keeping your broke.

You look down on conspiracy theorists like it's some kind of mental disorder. On the contrary: not being critical of the world around you is the real mental disorder.

But hey, you got the iPhone 5 so life is good!

(Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain)

[Kowalski]

I don't understand how the word "conspiracy" is still being thrown aroundthis story

They ARE logging everything you do online

They ARE monitoring your phone calls

The people who aren't bothered by what the government does, are always the people who just haven't felt effected by it. As long as you have whatever little scraps are kicked down to you, you smile and think how lucky you are to live in a "free country". Meanwhile, the banks collaborate on hiking your mortgage rates, the energy companies tighten their grip to squeeze a little more out of you, you pay for your gas with credit because your bills are keeping your broke.

You look down on conspiracy theorists like it's some kind of mental disorder. On the contrary: not being critical of the world around you is the real mental disorder.

But hey, you got the iPhone 5 so life is good!

(Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain)

And that new iPhone 5 is being monitered.....

[Kowalski]

Ron Paul warns about computer surveillance in 1984:

[Orcseeker]

Great then because we can agree in certain key areas including how conspiracy theories and rebel yells will not ultimately help or change in the areas where both is required.

Consider me on board as being concerned over the erosion of rights including the public right.

This of course is an old age query because while we all can applaud the principles in the Magna Carta , the Great Charter, how many of us remember the Charter of the Forests? The latter has been assailed and continues to be as noted by your analogy of the attitude of Nestlé's CEO.

Destroying the Commons: How the Magna Carta Became a Minor Carta by Noam Chomsky

As can be seen in the final paragraph in the quote above the privatizing of water was beaten back in Bolivia (and through the mechanisms of democracy). This is why I am not up in arms but instead am interested in gradual change, redress, and balance.

As seen in red bold above, especially the underlined portion, we can be well aware "the commons" has largely been eroded since the 1600s. History reveals this is not something sudden and that we can also change it (as in Bolivia).

So any threats to the principles in the Magna Carta and the longtime erosion to the Charter of the Forest can be countered, in due time, but not through rabble rousing or conspiracy theory generation.

What most concerns me are privatization to schools (recent) and healthcare (which has been with us for a while). Privatization of our police (coming unless we stop it) and prisons (recent) are also greatly concerning. Still, no need for conspiracy theory here, just a study of history and a calm approach.

And I have been absolutely pushing and suggesting change and solutions on this board and not primarily relying on conspiracy theories. I do believe all should be considered however. Which is why I do consider and discuss conspiracy theories. What I have outlined in my previous posts in our discussion are factual and not of the conspiracy nature.

Noam Chomsky is a smart man and right on the money. And yes I aim for those three things as well.

Conspiracy theories bring to light that the government may not be completely honest. Which is a good thing is it not? From what I've been seeing they should be under constant scrutiny.

Here we have private schools (Australia). Essentially what happens with that is that you end up paying for the final grade. People who received a high final score in a private school would have generally received a lower score in a public school. Simply because the private schools spoon feed the students. I could go into further detail at least in to how my state processes scores and how skewed it is to upperclass areas but you get most of the idea. I will explain further if you like.

Healthcare results in the dollar put above even in some cases, patients lives. I'm not sure if you've seen the documentary, Sicko, but one case, a womans child died simply because the nearest hospital they got to would not accept their medical insurance I believe was the problem.

So these corporations policies were above the life of a human being. Yes, there are some people out there who have little to no regard for human life. It's a big world out there and expect those same people to be corrupt as well. Put them at a head of a corporation and you've got trouble.

Privatise things that should be government owned, and that's where the real problems begin.

And no, no conspiracies as I have outlined this information is all quite readily available to the public.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Orcseeker

[Clarakore]

Watch The One Senator Who Voted Against The Patriot Act Warn What Would Happen (VIDEO)

But this sort of data collection -- along with what the NSA is doing through its PRISM program-- is exactly what then-Sen. Russ Feingold (D-Wis.) warned about when he was the only senator to vote against the Patriot Act in 2001.

From his speech:

One provision that troubles me a great deal is a provision that permits the government under FISA to compel the production of records from any business regarding any person, if that information is sought in connection with an investigation of terrorism or espionage.

Now we're not talking here about travel records pertaining to a terrorist suspect, which we all can see can be highly relevant to an investigation of a terrorist plot. FISA already gives the FBI the power to get airline, train, hotel, car rental and other records of a suspect.

But under this bill, the government can compel the disclosure of the personal records of anyone -- perhaps someone who worked with, or lived next door to, or went to school with, or sat on an airplane with, or has been seen in the company of, or whose phone number was called by --the target of the investigation.

And under this new provisions all business records can be compelled, including those containing sensitive personal information like medical records from hospitals or doctors, or educational records, or records of what books someone has taken out of the library. This is anenormous expansion of authority, under a law that provides only minimal judicial supervision.

(Watch the video above.)

http://www.huffpost.com/us/entry/3402878

Feingold is a hero. What he has to say now about this should prove interesting. Doubtful it will be conspiracy theory or screams of tyranny.

[Kowalski]

Watch The One Senator Who Voted Against The Patriot Act Warn What Would Happen (VIDEO)

Feingold is a hero. What he has to say now about this should prove interesting. Doubtful it will be conspiracy theory or screams of tyranny.

Ron Paul was only one of three Republican Senators who voted against the Patriot Act, so the Huffington-Post is wrong.

And no, Paul isn't screaming about tyranny or "conspiracy theories" about the whole NSA thing now, just "I told you so"....

[Sweetpumper]

[Babe Ruth]

Ron Paul was not a Senator. Feingold was the only Senator to vote against the act.

Ron Paul is in the house. He was one of only 3 republicans in the HOuse to vote against. The democrats showed just as poorly.

Barbara Lee was the only person in the House to vote against AUMF. That principled woman is now trying to have it repealed, which would certainly be the proper remedy.

[Kowalski]

Ron Paul was not a Senator. Feingold was the only Senator to vote against the act.

Ron Paul is in the house. He was one of only 3 republicans in the HOuse to vote against. The democrats showed just as poorly.

Barbara Lee was the only person in the House to vote against AUMF. That principled woman is now trying to have it repealed, which would certainly be the proper remedy.

Okay, my bad. But, he did vote against it, and warned us about the UN-Patriot Act.....

[NiteMarcher]

It strikes me, constitutional issues aside, that the American government is doing exactly what it should do to protect its citizens after what has happened and the potential disasters that could happen. The posts above strike me as contrary to national safety and ultimately contrary to the freedom Americans seem to worship so much, and verging on irrational and contain absurd assertions. Be rational people and recognize you live in a dangerous world.

Me don't think so...

http://youtu.be/PAjO1Ar9hkM

[Frank Merton]

That's kinda funny if it weren't so pathetic. People here saying things are against the Constitution when only one Senator voted against it. One wonders who has there up and down mixed up.

Myself I don't mind being searched when I get on an airplane, and I didn't even really mind having my toenail clippers taken away (I should have known better). People can and do hijack and airplanes and kill people on them, and I appreciate efforts to prevent it.

The same applies to general efforts worldwide by terrorists. It is a trade off between that and some silly notions.

[psyche101]

what bollocking right does an American agency have to my private phone calls in Australia?

I am guessing a Wikileaks type thing perhaps?