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The Pyramid and the Yard


RayGday

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The point probably is not worth pursuing in one respect because the Egyptians did not divide an hour into briefer specific intervals. There was no concept of "seconds," in other words. I seem to recall explaining this very recently in this or perhaps another current discussion, but to the Egyptians the only specific measurement of time briefer than one hour was the at, or "moment,"—which was not a specific measurement of time, actually.

In my much younger days I was a combat medic and then a paramedic. I can tell you from personal experience that a person with a pulse rate of 60 is, well, not in the norm. It is usually higher.

You are quite correct there, the minute was introduced as a concept in 1577 by the clockmaker, mathematician and astronomer Jost Burgi. And he based the division of the hour on the division of a circle (360 degrees). The concept was not practical with balance clocks as used at the time and it did not become a feature in clocks until 1665 with the invention of the pendulum. The second did not become a relevant measure until John Harrison in 1762. The names we give these units derive from Latin: minute for small second for smaller.

And that brain maxturbation about the heartbeat: anywhere between 60 and 100 beats per minute is normal, where 60 beats apply more to a sleeping person than somebody busy counting. Hardly a measure precise enough to measure anything by, except your degree of boredom.

As far as the funny numbering system: powers of 12 and fractions thereof (i.e. segesimal system) are an invention of the Babylonians and Assyrians, who based all their math on it. Not the Egyptians. They used the decimal system as evident in the Moscow mathematical papyrus, the Reisner papyrus and a few others we have found along the way. That gives us a strong indication that the concept of the clock, and therefore the division of the day, did not grow on Egyptian sand but was copied from others.

Besides that, the Babylonians were also the founders of scientific Geometry, which is why we still use 360 to divide a circle (again, the segesimal system).

And therefore: throw this whole thread into the trash can: it does not look that, besides some cryptic mumblings and the well known farting Osirises, we will learn anything from it.

Edited by questionmark
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You are quite correct there, the minute was introduced as a concept in 1577 by the clockmaker, mathematician and astronomer Jost Burgi. And he based the division of the hour on the division of a circle (360 degrees). The concept was not practical with balance clocks as used at the time and it did not become a feature in clocks until 1665 with the invention of the pendulum. The second did not become a relevant measure until John Harrison in 1762. The names we give these units derive from Latin: minute for small second for smaller.

And that brain maxturbation about the heartbeat: anywhere between 60 and 100 beats per minute is normal, where 60 beats apply more to a sleeping person than somebody busy counting. Hardly a measure precise enough to measure anything by, except your degree of boredom.

As far as the funny numbering system: powers of 12 and fractions thereof (i.e. segesimal system) are an invention of the Babylonians and Assyrians, who based all their math on it. Not the Egyptians. They used the decimal system as evident in the Moscow mathematical papyrus, the Reisner papyrus and a few others we have found along the way. That gives us a strong indication that the concept of the clock, and therefore the division of the day, did not grow on Egyptian sand but was copied from others.

Besides that, the Babylonians were also the founders of scientific Geometry, which is why we still use 360 to divide a circle (again, the segesimal system).

And therefore: throw this whole thread into the trash can: it does not look that, besides some cryptic mumblings and the well known farting Osirises, we will learn anything from it.

Burgi invented a clock and subdivided the hour with a minute hand, he did

not invent the minute or time.

You agree that the Babylonians were fond of dividing things by 60 but insist

the minute nor hour couldn't have been one of them!

It has never been my contention that the Egyptians were the be all end all of

civilization even over the many centuries they led the world. The question here

isn't so much did everything today including the concept of a yard come from

the ancient Egyptians. It didn't. The question here is whether or not the "yard"

is defined by the Great Pyramid and the fact is there's no evidence it wasn't as

well as some argument it might have been.

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Burgi invented a clock and subdivided the hour with a minute hand, he did

not invent the minute or time.

You agree that the Babylonians were fond of dividing things by 60 but insist

the minute nor hour couldn't have been one of them!

It has never been my contention that the Egyptians were the be all end all of

civilization even over the many centuries they led the world. The question here

isn't so much did everything today including the concept of a yard come from

the ancient Egyptians. It didn't. The question here is whether or not the "yard"

is defined by the Great Pyramid and the fact is there's no evidence it wasn't as

well as some argument it might have been.

Right, because the whole science, religion besides the other 400 forms of wisdom are contained in the Pyramid Texts, I forgot. Now, have you taken your pills today?

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I do believe that if you can get into the head of one ancient person that you're

in the heads of most all of them because they were all on the same page. As a

rule modern philosophy is distinct from ancient ideas, I believe. They had to em-

ploy basic everyday communication even back to caveman days and this means

they had to have means of measuring everything from long distances to brief time

periods. This seems to be beyond self evident to me and bordering on the very def-

intion of "human". Human communication requires human measurements. Perhaps

we've merely lost sight of such basic concepts.

How would the ancients have to defined the rate at which Turn Around Norman moves?

How would they define the interval between a lightning strike two miles away and its thun-

der?

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I do believe that if you can get into the head of one ancient person that you're

in the heads of most all of them because they were all on the same page. As a

rule modern philosophy is distinct from ancient ideas, I believe. They had to em-

ploy basic everyday communication even back to caveman days and this means

they had to have means of measuring everything from long distances to brief time

periods. This seems to be beyond self evident to me and bordering on the very def-

intion of "human". Human communication requires human measurements. Perhaps

we've merely lost sight of such basic concepts.

How would the ancients have to defined the rate at which Turn Around Norman moves?

How would they define the interval between a lightning strike two miles away and its thun-

der?

The usual whining: Yes the ancient knew a lot more than you give them credit for, especially those who were not Egyptian. No matter if it is the division of the day, organized religion or the war chariot: those were adopted from other civilizations and that they used exact copies (i.e. 12 hour day, fixed axle) shows that they adopted it by copying, not by giving it much thought.

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Yes the ancient knew a lot more than you give them credit for, especially those who were not Egyptian.

No... ...they knew a great deal more than you give them credit for.

...And the Egyptians were just as smart and just as capable as anyone else before 2000 BC.

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No... ...they knew a great deal more than you give them credit for.

...And the Egyptians were just as smart and just as capable as anyone else before 2000 BC.

Which does not mean they invented the wheel (the Babylonians) nor the hour (the Babylonians) nor Geometry (the Babylonians).

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...

I can't show anything in the PT that implies a shorter unit of time than an hour but this hardly

proves that there were no shorter units of time. It mentions short units but these are appar-

ently of indeterminant duration as has been suggested previously. But common sense dic-

tates they had to be able to express shorter units of time. How was the foreman to tell their

workers to get a stone to a specific place unless he could say something more precise than

"be there by the time it takes a butterfly to emerge from a cocoon". This is sufficient accuract

for their needs but not each individual would have ever observed a butterfly's "birth". There

would be differences from species to species.

...

The Pyramid Texts would not be a source for acquiring or understanding such information. You're laboring under the mistaken notion that the Pyramid Texts contain all information necessary for obtaining an understanding of the ancient Egyptians and their culture. The Texts certainly cannot do this. In other words, in your line of approach you're ignoring about 99.9% of all other extant pharaonic textual and literary material.

You're also still holding to the assumption that modern understandings and practices somehow relate to an extinct culture from the Bronze Age. Anachronisms are a stumbling block. Rather than just assuming what you're saying must be correct because you believe it to be correct, why not conduct some real research and learn the facts?

The sense of time was handled very similarly in cultures around the ancient Mediterranean. Precision was not the concern that it is today among modern cultures, especially in the West—where time management has become an obsession. The course of a day was divided into hours, beginning with the rising of the sun. A foreman at the Great Pyramid, for example, might tell his crew to arrive for work at the second hour of the day. The same was true in ancient Athens, where all residents understood such-and-such a business or facility opened every day at such-and-such hour of the day (beginning after dawn) and closed at a certain number of hours after that.

It's really no more complicated than that.

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The ancient Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Indian and Chinese divided the day into 12 units.

Why 12?

You have to look at the sky to determine time - the daily rotation and yearly orbit.

Originally, their year was timed by the 12 full moons and called lunisolar calendars.

For better accuracy the yearly orbit was divided into 12 units of 30 degrees called Months, and visualised by the constellations in the sun's ecliptic.

Basically, the 360° sky has always been divided into 12 equal sections.

The exact same 12 divisions was used to measure the daily rotation. i.e. 12 hours per day not 24.

The resulting Hour and Second was twice as long as ours.

43 200 seconds in the ancient day.

Again, the same 12 divisions are used to measure Precession of the Equinoxes - the Great Year.

We are currently precessing into the Age of Aquarius, from Pisces.

earth_clock.jpg

Here is the link to the complete theory of the Pyramid and the Yard, from Introduction to Conclusion, complete with details, diagrams, animations and images. Sorry no elephants.

http://www.xrayb.com...nd_the_yard.php

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This is also meaningless since at 40,075 kilometers/25,046 miles in circumference, dividing that by the 24 hour period of a day, one gets 1043 miles/5507040 feet per hour which makes that 1529.7 feet per second.

cormac

A closer look at the math.

The Great Pyramid's base is 2 secs of rotation using modern time or 1 sec of rotation using the ancient second.

Modern

The circumference of the Earth is 40 075 000 metres

divided by 86 400 seconds in a day.

Equals 463.8 metres/sec or 507.2 British yards/sec

2 secs of rotation equals 1014.4 British yards.

The Pyramid's base is 1007.7 British yards.

99.3%

Ancient

43 200 secs in a day and 1 sec of rotation gives the same result.

99.3 %

Converting Briish yards to the original Yard also gives the same result. It's just a ratio.

99.3%

If Newton was correct then 99.3% is an excellent result.

The Great Pyramid’s perimeter is 1000 Yards, exactly one second of rotation.

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Lets look at the hieroglyph theory.

If there is no hieroglyph for an idea or object then it didn't exist!

In Petries book, The Pyramids and Temples of Egypt, Chap. XIX, Mechanical Methods Of The Pyramid Builders, there is detailed descriptions of evidence of drilling and sawing granite by mechanical means.

"On the granite core, broken from a drill-hole (No. 7), other features appear, which also can only be explained by the use of fixed jewel points. Firstly, the grooves which run around it form a regular spiral, with no more interruption or wavlness than is necessarily produced by the variations in the component crystals ; this spiral is truly symmetrical with the axis of the core. In one part a groove can be traced, with scarcely an interruption, for a length of four turns."

granite-core.png

"The forms of the tools were straight saws, circular saws, tubular drills, and lathes."

"These tubular drills vary from 1/4 inch to 5 inches diameter, and from 1/30 to 1/5 inch thick. The smallest hole yet found in granite is 2 inches diameter..."

"The amount of pressure, shown by the rapidity with which the drills and saws pierced through the hard stones, is very surprising; probably a load of at least a ton or two was placed on the 4-inch drills cutting in granite. On the granite core, No. 7, the spiral of the cut sinks 1 inch in the circumference of 6 inches, or 1 in 60, a rate of ploughing out of the quartz and felspar which is astonishing."

"Hence these rapid spiral grooves cannot be ascribed to anything but the descent of the drill into the granite under enormous pressure"

Where are the hieroglyphs for these cutting tools?

Is this evidence that the ancient Egyptians didn't have a clue how the pyramids were built?

Here's a link to many photographs and information about cutting granite at Giza.

http://www.theglobal...s/stonetech.php

The people who built the Great Pyramid were very, very advanced. They knew what a second was.

The Mesopotamians divided the hour into 3600 seconds.

The Vedic texts show units for microseconds. Yes, millionths of a second.

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It must be noted i feel that belief has effected history RayGday,

But i can't say that this existed through the ages without corruption, so i'm for you on some aspects, not on others, i would say that we can't show that this originated with Egyptians, i would put forward this is Pseudoscience through the ages instead, so i would be with Kmt_sesh that this is corruption of Egyptian Idea's on philosophy, but all beliefs effect history after!!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetism,_Hermeticism_and_other_thought_systems

We follow the Gregorian Calendar, midnight in Rome on 5th October 1582 doesn't exist, so please note i show 11:59pm on 4th October 1582 in Rome below:-

Sirius Rising at 23:59pm on 4th October 1582 in Rome on date below, SIRIUS RISING:-

http://2012forum.com/forum/download/file.php?id=3495&mode=view

I leave you to find what the Gregorian Calendar issue date was in Rome....you will find it was midnight on 5th October 1582!

There is a lot of Pseudoscience that has been applied throughout history with beliefs!

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Please note i agree with Questionmark, the minute hand was invented by Jost Burgi in 1577, this made midnight more accurate to astronomers, the Gregorian Calendar issue was 5th October 1582 in Rome, but this doesn't exist as ten days were taken out, the Gregorian Calendar is aligned to midnight, find out for yourselves!

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~SNIP~

The resulting Hour and Second was twice as long as ours.

We are currently precessing into the Age of Aquarius, from Pisces.

~SNIP~

Making up your own "facts" does not make them true. That the Egyptians determined a day by the amount of daylight and the longest day of the year (June 21) has 14 hours, 4 minutes and 57 seconds of daylight negates your claim that the hour was "twice as long as ours". Particularly since 1/12th of an equal period of daylight would give an hour of 70.41 minutes. The shortest day of the year, December 21, would give an equal period of daylight (10 hours,m 12 minutes 40 seconds) divided into a further equal period of 12 hours of 51.05 minutes. Nowhere near dooubled as you'd like others to believe. And the shortest period of time, the at (moment) as mentioned by kmt_sesh, bears no specific designation of length of time in AE society and therefore does not open it up to interpreting it any way you wish.

The zodiac as determined by the Greeks is irrelevant to the period of the builders of the Great Pyramid as Egypt had not such zodiac. Which makes the Greek zodiac meaningless in this discussion.

cormac

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Hi Kmt_sesh,

I thought link below would help debate to how the hour was divided and applied to different latitudes in Roman Empire, it explains how the length of the hour changed in Summer and Winter, different to how it is applied today:-

http://en.wikipedia....man_timekeeping

Thanks for this. I do believe it's going to help.

...later.

Hi Kmt_sesh,

I thought link below would help debate to how the hour was divided and applied to different latitudes in Roman Empire, it explains how the length of the hour changed in Summer and Winter, different to how it is applied today:-

http://en.wikipedia....man_timekeeping

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The ancient Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Indian and Chinese divided the day into 12 units.

Why 12?

You have to look at the sky to determine time - the daily rotation and yearly orbit.

Originally, their year was timed by the 12 full moons and called lunisolar calendars.

For better accuracy the yearly orbit was divided into 12 units of 30 degrees called Months, and visualised by the constellations in the sun's ecliptic.

Basically, the 360° sky has always been divided into 12 equal sections.

The exact same 12 divisions was used to measure the daily rotation. i.e. 12 hours per day not 24.

The resulting Hour and Second was twice as long as ours.

43 200 seconds in the ancient day.

Again, the same 12 divisions are used to measure Precession of the Equinoxes - the Great Year.

We are currently precessing into the Age of Aquarius, from Pisces.

earth_clock.jpg

Here is the link to the complete theory of the Pyramid and the Yard, from Introduction to Conclusion, complete with details, diagrams, animations and images. Sorry no elephants.

http://www.xrayb.com...nd_the_yard.php

365/28 still gives 13... sorry but no candy.

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..."The amount of pressure, shown by the rapidity with which the drills and saws pierced through the hard stones, is very surprising; probably a load of at least a ton or two was placed on the 4-inch drills cutting in granite. On the granite core, No. 7, the spiral of the cut sinks 1 inch in the circumference of 6 inches, or 1 in 60, a rate of ploughing out of the quartz and felspar which is astonishing."...

Why is it always assumed that the grooves present in a drilled hole represent the downward movement of the drill? Wouldn't the drill make grooves on the way out of the hole? And wouldn't these grooves be closer together, since the drill would be removed much faster than it went in? Am I missing something here?

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Why is it always assumed that the grooves present in a drilled hole represent the downward movement of the drill? Wouldn't the drill make grooves on the way out of the hole? And wouldn't these grooves be closer together, since the drill would be removed much faster than it went in? Am I missing something here?

you are not... those who never seen a drill working are...

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Lets look at the hieroglyph theory.

If there is no hieroglyph for an idea or object then it didn't exist!

<<Snip>>

That is not correct. There are many words and terms denoting various concepts and abstract thoughts for which no single, representative hieroglyph exists. Your assumption is true for quite a lot of other words and terms for which a glyph can stand as a rebus, such as the symbol for ankh ("life"), but for the most part Egyptian hieroglyphs were employed as phonetic symbols representing the sound components of words and terms.

Where are the hieroglyphs for these cutting tools?

Is this evidence that the ancient Egyptians didn't have a clue how the pyramids were built?

There are only a set number of hieroglyphs for tools and implements. See this page (Gardiner's "U" category for "Agriculture, Crafts, and Professions"). To a large extent specific tools were spelled out phonetically using monoliterals, biliterals, and triliterals, and would often terminate with a semantic determinative to denote the class of tool to which the item belonged.

But in your case there happens to be a specific hieroglyph for the drill. It is designated U35 (with U34 as a variant):

hiero_U25.png

This same symbol is frequently used at the ends of titles denoting crafstmen, as a semantic determinative.

The people who built the Great Pyramid were very, very advanced. They knew what a second was.

Yes, the Egyptians were indeed advanced—in the realistic perspective of a Bronze Age civilization. Note that I exclude woo-woo crap of the sort peddled by Chris Dunn, most of whose fringe ideas are divorced from reality. Dunn makes the same critical mistake made by many fringe proponents: while being familiar with modern tools, materials, and industries, they possess no observable understanding of Bronze Age engineering.

And, no, there is no evidence the Egyptians used the measurement of time we call the "second." You're making the same error our friend cladking frequently does, in assuming that because you're familiar with something that is so common to us folks today, the ancient Egyptians must've, too. This is an anachronism, and it will lead you astray every time.

But I don't pretend to be all-knowing. Far from it. If you believe I am mistaken, please quote and cite a vetted, peer-reviewed paper by a respected historian in which it is demonstrated that the Egyptians measured time down to the second. Your personal assumptions are not sufficient.

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Lets look at the hieroglyph theory.

If there is no hieroglyph for an idea or object then it didn't exist!

You yourself can learn hieroglyphics in about 2 mins, no kidding

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You yourself can learn hieroglyphics in about 2 mins, no kidding

[media=]

[/media]

Well, damn, that's much easier than the route I took! :w00t:

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But I don't pretend to be all-knowing. Far from it. If you believe I am mistaken, please quote and cite a vetted, peer-reviewed paper by a respected historian in which it is demonstrated that the Egyptians measured time down to the second. Your personal assumptions are not sufficient.

This is impossible because there is no real evidence of how they measured and used

time far less is there any evidence of exactly how it was invented. The simple fact is

where evidence doesbn't exist professional opinion is as irrelevant as anyone else's.

What the Egyptians actually left (in words) regarding their undertsanding of time is mere

gobblety gook. The pyramid is obviously related to their understandingof time but pro-

fesssionals see only a tomb.

1382f. [when this hour of the morrow comes--this hour of the third day (comes)],

1383a. where [father Osiris N.] will be born, [at the place] where the gods are born;

1383b. when this hour of the morrow comes,--this hour of the third day,

There is no referent here. There is no specific hour named.

345a. when this hour of the morrow comes--the hour of the fifth -day,

345b. the hour of the sixth day, the hour of the seventh day, the hour of the eighth day.

346a. N. will be summoned by Rē‘, he will be given something (to eat) by Nḥb-kȝ.w,

346b. like Horus, like him of the horizon,

346c. when this hour of the morrow comes, the hour of the third day, the hour of the fourth day.

Again we have the exact same thing. This appears to mention a specific time

but does not. Imagine a bus schedule with such wording and guess how many

people would be able to catch the bus.

1524b. His year is calculated for him; his hour knows him.

1524c. N. is known by his year which is with him;

1524d. his hour which is with him knows him.

This is far worse since now hour knows him by the year that is with him. Trydesign-

oing a clock by these definitions and see how far you get.

883a. Thou, N., ascendest on the eastern side of the sky,

883b. renewed in thy time, rejuvenated in thine hour.

1946 + 1 (Nt. 773). O N., this hour of the morning, of this third day, is come,

Their word "hour" has no meaning in English as determined by context. It's no better

wirth their other time units. Indeed, it gats far worse;

1453c. N. has escaped the half-months of death,

1453d. even as Set escaped his half-months of death;

1453e. N. has escaped his months of death,

1453f. even as Set escaped his months of death;

14539. N. has escaped the year of death,

1453h. even as Set escaped his year of death,

1711b. Thou dawnest on the (first of the) month; thou purifiest thyself on the day of the new-moon.

This last one seems to even imply a lunar month yet we know their month was 30

days rather than ~28.

2069b. N. is intact; the ’itr.t-palace is standing; the month (i.e. the moon) is born; the nome lives,

This implication is stronger yet.

1067c. The eye of Horus will come to thee at the beginning of the decade, because thou art eager for it.

This is the one time reference that isn't gobblety gook. A decade is ten days.

120c. that Rē‘ may commend him to the chiefs of the provisions of this year,

I could go on and on but consider one more;

1284b. to divide in three these your four days and your eight nights.

This is gobblety gook smack dab in the middle of unrelated gobblety gook.

As is this;

746b. Horus has exterminated the evil which was in N. in his four day (term);

746c. Set has annulled that which he did against N. in his eight day (term).

The first looks more like a work schedule then a time reference. The second looks

comprehensible except there is nothing to grab onto to understand.

People might wonder what difdference this all makes but the fact is this is what we actually

know. We know that " divide in three these your four days and your eight nights." mustta

made some sort of sense to them and we know it makes no sense to us. Why would the

opinion of a peer reviewed Egyptologist be anymore relevant than anyone else's?

The concept that all lenghts of time were expressed in "hours" is ludicrous. You simply can't

express things that occur briefly in "hours". To claim they had no shorter unit of time is near-

ly akin to saying they lacked language altogether and expressed themselves in grunts like the

movie Caveman (worth the time by the by).

The existence of the pyramid and its bifurcation shows almost beyond doubt that they measured

time at least to its accuracy in reflecting the summer solstice (it's fast about 1m and 15s). This

is probably mere error rather than their shortest time unit.

Until an Egyptologist can actually point to evidence that actually says they had no short time unit

then common sense and some evidence says they did.

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You're also still holding to the assumption that modern understandings and practices somehow relate to an extinct culture from the Bronze Age. Anachronisms are a stumbling block. Rather than just assuming what you're saying must be correct because you believe it to be correct, why not conduct some real research and learn the facts

Frankly, I believe this is the problem for orthodoxy. They assume that the ancient people

thought and spoke like we do. I've seen little evidence to support this.

But far worse is that they assume that Egyptian culture was an unbroken chain from the

earliest time. I don't believe there is any evidence to support this either. If it were an un-

broken chain then where are all the ancient books? Yes, there are numerous words that

survived over the course of the centuries but if the early ones are all gobblety gook then we

don't know the meaning was the same. We assume words carried the same meaning de-

spite our lack of understanding.

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