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Paranoid Android

How old is "old enough"?

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Posted (edited)

To use two popular examples before I start, just to put some perspective on this:

1- Rupert Murdoch (82 years old), one of Australia's richest men, divorces third wife (44 years old).

2- Mary, mother of Jesus (13 years), married Joseph, possibly/probably as second wife (30 years).

So most of us understand that paedophilia is the line that should not be crossed. And though some ancient society's had different rules and did indeed see nothing wrong with paedophilia, my question is not about them but about us. When we come to age and sexuality, what do you think is acceptable? What religion are you, and what do you base your opinion on? In ancient society, marrying a 13-year old was normal. Today we prosecute adults who have sex with 13-year olds. And we have social taboos about age differences - though the rich don't seem to abide by them (see Rupert Murdoch as one example).

To put this into a personal focus, a friend of mine was 28 (I was 26 at the time). He was dating an 18-year old. Two years later they split up, and shortly after, as a 30-year old he was dating an 18-year old again. Two years later they split.... you get the idea (yes, I think he had a late-teen fetish, but that's not really the point).

I'm 33 years old. Yesterday I was propositioned by a 19-year old (yes, I look young for my age)....

And just to add another personal focus, my mother was 28 when she met my 38-year old father. I was born when mum was 30 and dad was 40. Obviously, a 12-year old meeting a 22-year old has some social issues to work with, but 28-year old meeting a 38-year old, not so much, so where is the "cut off" if there is one?

So what is your religion, and how does it affect your views on sexuality with people of various ages and age differences (is 13 years old, old enough for sex, and what about the age difference between the couple - where does marriage fit in? Is a 13-year old of marriageable age? Is it morally acceptable for a 45-year old to marry a 19-year old?).

You get the idea. Discuss :yes:

~ Regards, PA

Edited by Paranoid Android

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Well technically your friend dating an 18 year old is legal, but I don't even know how people can find 13 year olds attractive. I don't have a specific religion

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I have no religion.

Firstly, there is a proven correlation between contracting cervical cancer and having sexual intercourse from a young age.

Regarding old rich men having young wives ...... you don't have to be a genius to work out that she's hoping to be a rich widow sooner rather than later, with affairs with young rich men that she meets through her husband to keep her amused until then.

Big age gaps tend not to work simply because of the disparity in experience and expectations from life, but there's nothing inherently wrong with them. When I was 26 I became engaged to someone who was 17. I was with him for 18mths, which is the longest I have stayed with anyone.

Age is not really the point, the important thing is: do the two people want to be together? If either person has been coerced into the relationship or feels unable to leave, then that is wrong.

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Situations that took place in ancient times really have to be looked at from a time/culture specific perspective. In 2013 I really don't think it's appropriate for adult men to be having anything to do with 13 year olds. I personally think that when people have much more than 10 years between their ages it becomes problematic...but this is just my personal feeling (based on what I've seen during my lifetime). The bottom line is that one has to function within the laws of their own society and realize that life experience does indeed *count* when looking for someone to have a relationship with.

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To use two popular examples before I start, just to put some perspective on this:

1- Rupert Murdoch (82 years old), one of Australia's richest men, divorces third wife (44 years old).

2- Mary, mother of Jesus (13 years), married Joseph, possibly/probably as second wife (30 years).

So most of us understand that paedophilia is the line that should not be crossed. And though some ancient society's had different rules and did indeed see nothing wrong with paedophilia, my question is not about them but about us. When we come to age and sexuality, what do you think is acceptable? What religion are you, and what do you base your opinion on? In ancient society, marrying a 13-year old was normal. Today we prosecute adults who have sex with 13-year olds. And we have social taboos about age differences - though the rich don't seem to abide by them (see Rupert Murdoch as one example).

To put this into a personal focus, a friend of mine was 28 (I was 26 at the time). He was dating an 18-year old. Two years later they split up, and shortly after, as a 30-year old he was dating an 18-year old again. Two years later they split.... you get the idea (yes, I think he had a late-teen fetish, but that's not really the point).

I'm 33 years old. Yesterday I was propositioned by a 19-year old (yes, I look young for my age)....

And just to add another personal focus, my mother was 28 when she met my 38-year old father. I was born when mum was 30 and dad was 40. Obviously, a 12-year old meeting a 22-year old has some social issues to work with, but 28-year old meeting a 38-year old, not so much, so where is the "cut off" if there is one?

So what is your religion, and how does it affect your views on sexuality with people of various ages and age differences (is 13 years old, old enough for sex, and what about the age difference between the couple - where does marriage fit in? Is a 13-year old of marriageable age? Is it morally acceptable for a 45-year old to marry a 19-year old?).

You get the idea. Discuss :yes:

~ Regards, PA

In my understanding, and according to Psychology the rule of thumb is no more then 10 years between people. I would not be for any adult and a person under the age of legal consent. At nineteen one cannot see around the corner yet, they are barely out of the house. The span between 19 and 33 is too much in my opinion. There is so much they do not know yet, haven't experienced/lived yet. My middle son is 20 he is in the middle of figuring out who he is, he would not even consider getting involved at this point, he needs to have the opportunity to experience who he is for awhile to get a sense of who he is before he is ready to be an 'us'. There are extraordinarily mature people who are chronologically young but it is the exception not the rule. IMO

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I guess it would be okay for a 45 year old to marry a 19 year old, they are of legal age. Might get to looking creepy in a few years being that much age difference. At 45 in a few short years they are going to really start to show their age. Sorry when I see someone young with someone twice their age it looks creepy to me but its their business.

Yes Murdock had a much younger wife that's what those billions will buy you. The money won't buy their love or make you physically attractive to them.

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Posted (edited)

From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Pedophilia

"As a medical diagnosis, pedophilia or paedophilia is a psychiatric disorder in persons 16 years of age or older typically characterized by a primary or exclusive sexual interest toward prepubescent children (generally age 11 years or younger, though specific diagnosis criteria for the disorder extends the cut-off point for prepubescence to age 13).[1][2][3][4] An adolescent who is 16 years of age or older must be at least five years older than the prepubescent child before the attraction can be diagnosed as pedophilia.[1][2]

The term has a range of definitions, as found in psychiatry, psychology, the vernacular, and law enforcement. The International Classification of Diseases (ICD) defines pedophilia as a "disorder of adult personality and behaviour" in which there is a sexual preference for children of prepubertal or early pubertal age.[5] According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), it is aparaphilia in which adults or adolescents 16 years of age or older have intense and recurrent sexual urges towards and fantasies about prepubescent children that they have either acted on or which cause them distress or interpersonal difficulty.[1]

In popular usage, pedophilia means any sexual interest in children or the act of child sexual abuse, often termed "pedophilic behavior".[3][6][7][8] For example, The American Heritage Stedman's Medical Dictionary states, "Pedophilia is the act or fantasy on the part of an adult of engaging in sexual activity with a child or children."[9] This common use application also extends to the sexual interest in and sexual contact with pubescent or post-pubescent minors.[10][11] Researchers recommend that these imprecise uses be avoided because although people who commit child sexual abuse commonly exhibit the disorder,[6][12][13] some offenders do not meet the clinical diagnosis standards for pedophilia and these standards pertain to prepubescents.[10][14][15] Additionally, not all pedophiles actually commit such abuse.[15][16]

At present, the exact causes of pedophilia have not been conclusively established.[26] Research suggests that pedophilia may be correlated with several different neurological abnormalities, and often co-exists with other personality disorders and psychological pathologies. In the contexts of forensic psychology and law enforcement, a variety of typologies have been suggested to categorize pedophiles according to behavior and motivations.[11"

Seems clear to me that a 19-year-old dating a 45-year-old isn't pedophilia. A 22-year-old having sex with a prepubescent and usually more than one is. I wouldn't call Mr. Heffner a pedophile, maybe a few other choice names, but not a pedophile.

A teacher having sex with his 10-year-old student is sick, I don't care what religion you are.

What prepubescent child even wants sex to consent freely? What 7-year-old female is physically ready?

Ever heard of the desire for prepubescent "looking" girly mag/Internet models? It's a way to avoid child porn charges but...

Edited by QuiteContrary

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Young people under the age of 18 of either sex are not mature enough to take on the responsibilities of marriage or parenthood, which go hand in hand. There are religions that teach marriage between older men and young girls, but I don't think it's appropriate. As to the age difference, there have been a lot of examples where someone married to someone else half their age have ended badly. When a 42 year old woman has a relationship with a much younger man, even if he is of legal age, she shouldn't be surprised if straying occurs. Young men look for surrogate mothers or someone to support them. Young women will look for father figures or money, as mentioned before. I feel 10 years can be ok if both parties are mature enough, but ideally, I think 5 years would be a better choice. More on an even level both emotionally and physically.

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Posted (edited)

Young people under the age of 18 of either sex are not mature enough to take on the responsibilities of marriage or parenthood, which go hand in hand. There are religions that teach marriage between older men and young girls, but I don't think it's appropriate. As to the age difference, there have been a lot of examples where someone married to someone else half their age have ended badly. When a 42 year old woman has a relationship with a much younger man, even if he is of legal age, she shouldn't be surprised if straying occurs. Young men look for surrogate mothers or someone to support them. Young women will look for father figures or money, as mentioned before. I feel 10 years can be ok if both parties are mature enough, but ideally, I think 5 years would be a better choice. More on an even level both emotionally and physically.

I am 8 years older then my husband of 17 years, he was one of those that was mature for his age, so it worked for us. I agree with you it is not the rule it is more the exception.

Edited by Sherapy
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I don't think 8 years difference in age is that much. It's when it gets to be 15 or 20 years or more that I think its too much. When there's that much difference in age the older one has to have insecurity problems. I bet the younger one is more likely to cheat than they would be with someone their own age especially when the older one really starts to show their age.

Most of the time when your talking about 20 years or more there is money involved and probably hoping the older one has one foot in the grave or something wrong there.

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I'm not of any religion, but I guess I don't have an 'issue' with most age differences. I think you need, from a pragmatic standpoint, to have some age that is considered a cut-off for being 'too young',but even then I think there should be allowances from a legal standpoint for 'too young' people having sex with people of their own age; I think it ridiculous that you can prosecute a 16-year old for rape (in some parts of the US) for having sex with his 15-year old girlfriend. But I don't like to make judgments about the appropriateness or whether it's taboo for adults to have relationships with drastic age differences, because I find those kind of judgments to be somewhat insulting and predicated on some bad assumptions, namely, "I know better than they do". Taking the Murdoch example, who exactly am I, or anybody, to be telling a 40 year old who she can have a relationship with? It doesn't even have to be 40 years, I think the same holds for 30 and even younger, it still presumes that just because everyone is going to mature and change that the way I matured and changed with age has some universal quality to it, it doesn't; although there are indeed commonalities, in many ways my maturing and aging has just, at best, solidified who I am, and there's no shortage of examples of people my age who have also equally become more 'who they are', but who are still significantly different. 'Who they are' at my age is not at all right for me, and I'm sure vice-versa.

What if Murdoch and his wife knew full well that their relationship may be temporary, does that change anything? How would you phrase what the core of the 'disapproval' of these kinds of age differences is? Even if Murdoch was dating a 21 year old, I still have trouble with my disapproval, it still presumes the notion that I know the 21 year old better than she knows herself. I mean, what am I going to say, "you do realize that relationships with significant age differences don't usually last forever"? I wouldn't because she can defeat that, and make me look utterly foolish and presumptious, with a simple, 'yes, I know that', and I'm left basing my disapproval on no reasoning, just my subjective opinions about what is right for other people, which is not really a good basis. I know I take my position partly because I try to avoid basing my opinions on anything that even has a whiff of sanctimony which I detest, but regardless it's difficult enough to find love and companionship in this world, I'm not going to make it more of a hassle by judging based on what I think is best for other people. I'm certainly not going to begrudge them just because their relationship may ultimately not last, few things do. Perfect being the enemy of the good and all that.

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As far as Mary at 13, yea that seems awful young, but I don't think the life expectancy was that high at that time. Also, I doubt that getting married and reproducing was the first time in her life that she was having to engage in and take responsibilites that we nowadays reserve for adults, I think most 13 year olds at that time were 'old' 13 years olds compared to today's, I think the harshness of life at that time required and resulted in kids maturing relatively quickly.

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Yeah I think for me atleast they would have to be at about the same intellectual level as myself, because sex is good but then what happens after. If I cant connect with her intellectually then Im out.

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Posted (edited)

I have to agree with most posters here, in that 13yo's are too young to be having sex, even 16yo's are a bit immature to be honest (from a mental standpoint, not physically), having been 16 once & looking back and realising how immature I was! (isn't hindsight wonderful.)

but for age differences, that's for the individual to decide I guess. if THEY see nothing wrong, why should we? personally, unless they were exceptional, I wouldn't commit to a relationship with anyone more than 10yrs younger than me (sex is different), as it wouldn't be fair on them in later life, and not to mention commonality of interest (me hating R&B, her hating fell walking kinda thing), but again, it all depends on the individual. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a relationship purely on age grounds, that would be a bit shallow in my view, but it would certainly be something i'd consider when looking for a partner.

but hey, if it it makes you both happy, then i'd say go for it! (knock yourself out PA!)

:-)

Edited by shrooma
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It's legally impossible to have a consensual relationship with someone who's not "of age" - someone who's unable to realise the consequence of their actions.

Presumably, 19 is legally "of age" out in Aus. - but that number is an arbitrary minimum line in the sand drawn by the society you live in, in order to make sure that the vast majority of children are protected until they're old enough to be able to make sensible choices.

In terms of physiology, the decision making centre of the brain doesn't fully reach maturity until the early twenties.

Individuals, however, mature at different rates.

So - once you get past the minimum socially acceptable age hurdle - what it really comes down to is whether or not you think that she really knows what she's getting into.

Only you know the answer to that.

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Well as someone in their late 40's who just happens to look in their 30's and handsome with it, (if I may be so bold), I too have met plenty of younger women. But say from mid 20's upwards to be honest. At work Ive had younger females be flirty and stuff but have never followed up on it, as for example, Im no longer much of a clubber, and younger girls may want that from a fella and be bored with me, so for me then, its someone 'mature' in thought, but hopefully not as old as me that Id prefer!!

If anyone reads the following links, it seems in our history, consent was OK if - in this example a female- had reached sexual maturity/puberty etc. Of course this is only physical and doesn't consider the mental maturity

Anyway on age of consent... back in the olden days of the UK, 12 years old was old enough!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe#England_and_Wales'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe#England_and_Wales

and In Spain, apparently currently the age is 13

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe

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Mary, mother of Jesus (13 years), married Joseph, possibly/probably as second wife (30 years).

I have never heard/seen Mary's age given before ........ where did that number come from?

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Posted (edited)

This is a socioeconomic problem not a spiritual one. In western societies a girl has opportunity at an education, and independent life, and contributions to society either economically or intellectually. It's hard for her to Persue these things when being impressionable and manipulated by older men or haveing babies. Also there is the possibility that that man will evenchually leave her and if she did not learn to fend for herself she is stuck.

In other societies the protection and economic stability of an older man can be an amazing blessing. In many countries women do not have the opertunities they have in the west and a 16 year old marrying an established 35 year old can improve her quality of life ten fold.

Like everything else it is relative. Here in the west it should be a crime for an adult to have sex with a teen. Teens are easily manipulated and should enjoy the protection of the law until they have enough experience to make those kinds of decisions for themselves.

For me personally, young women simply have nothing to offer, and I have nothing to offer them. ( if I were not maried). I have had sex at that age with Somone my own age at that time and I can remember enough that it would be completely horrible sex with what I know now. I like women. My stage of liking girls left me in my early 20s.

Now they are just kids. I can recognize that they are attractive, but I find nothing sexy about Somone who has not a clue what to do with that sexuality. Further more I tend to care tremendously about the young people I'm around. A much older man, probably with kids, is a complete dead end for a younger woman. Those men are not looking for companions, they are looking for playthings. I cannot respect them.

I am not opposed to mutual decision makeing. A 23 year old with a sugar daddy is non of my business. They have an arrangement and it is between them. But when we start talking about teens, I become very concerned. They have not found themselves yet, nor do they really understand how to evaluate a potential mate and what that person can add to their lives. With the exception of a very few They are in lala land half the time.

My attitude changes a bit in parts of the world where an older man can and is willing to provide protection and a descent life potentially even education for girl with absolutely no other prospects and at risk to fall into exploitation. Or the obvious hunter gatherer societies where a successful male offers food protection and social placement for his wife or wives.

Edited by Seeker79

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Well as someone in their late 40's who just happens to look in their 30's and handsome with it,

.

you & me both brother!!

:-)

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It is only pediaphlia in the usa, western europe. My, grandmother married her first husband when she was thirteen, don't know how old the gent was. He isn't my grandfather. So you see marring at thirteen was ok here in the usa one hundred years ago. Then when mydad wanted to marry my mom at eighteen, he had to get written permission from his and her parents. Now that age is sixteen.

As for child labor, those countries that do it, do so to help feed their families. China regulates how much their workers get, since the chinese government owns a ll of the businesses in the country or at least part of it. This is why chinese parents want their one child to be boys.

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Seeker, that is why the population in europe is falling. Not enough girls are having babies. The only reason the usa's population is growing is due to immagration.

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Seeker, that is why the population in europe is falling. Not enough girls are having babies. The only reason the usa's population is growing is due to immagration.

An educated woman can have babies. My wife has a BA, works for a very large corporation, and we have three.

I'm not sure population decline is a bad thing. Worldwide at least, I can see how it generations to come it might play a little havock with economis, but I believe we should all be self suficent anyway.

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its all about love and maturity! in the past .. ppl are matured faster then now (mentally)! thats why you see people marry between the age 12 /16 years, and are very happy!

and now most call it 'modern society ' people live longer healthier , and maturing at an older age around 25 years !

10 years ago is was normal to marry at the age of 21, and having kids .

nowadays you first need to have alot of dates (''experiences;) till the age between 30 /35 years before you take that huge step to (date)marry someone, with the thought! is it the one? ! and if it doesnt work out .. you can just (date) marry someone else ! that i think is so wrong !

i think us humans today are trying to hard to find happiness , i mean you cant find happiness by building up experiences and trying out everything before you marry ! you only marry someone because you are happy and want to stay happy! so i would say you are never to young to love, to be happy !

but i would kill someone that is 18 + and trying have sex with someone that is 13 and younger just for the experience and sex ! damn those pedo's

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Posted (edited)

In 2013 I really don't think it's appropriate for adult men to be having anything to do with 13 year olds.

I'm with Lilly on this one too.....To add - There is no way in hell I would approve of my daughter ( once turned 13 ) to date a guy let alone marry, not a mission... I want my kids to enjoy their childhood as much as possible and continue being well educated.. There is so much to do for young kids in their teens... Live a little and get a chance to explore more in their lives before settling down ...I think if a young teenager settles down so soon, they could miss out in so much in their lives...

My dad would have strung me up if I had of came home and told him I had a boy friend at 15 let alone 13.. Many fathers over in my own homeland are very much protective of their young daughters...You wont find too many men approving of their young daughters getting hitched so early in life...Some hate letting go of their daughters.. it's the society in which we grew up in... I see no sense in saying - Well they used to do this back in ancient times OR they do this normally in such and such country..That does not mean in my own society we should think - Yea ok why not?

This girl you mention is 19 years old and you 33...Hmmm that isn't as bad as a 13 year old.. The only thing that could go wrong is, her claiming she is so very mature, but later you find you just can't keep up with her... Over here the guys would say - "Oh yea go for it", then nick name you - Cradle snatcher lol

I was not really one for diving too deep into younger guys.. What I mean is, I only liked guys who were either 2-3 possibly 4 years at most ( and that's stretching it ) Reason being is because, in my last work place, a lot of university students used to come and work weekends and I was lumbered with a few...I was asked out by 4 different young guys in their early 20's, and I was 29 going on 30 at the time..... The younger guys thought I was just 21 or 22 at most... When I told them I don't go for much younger guys, they didn't take it too well.. Some got mad at me...But they soon calmed down and no hard feelings...I used to feel bad..But see, I was going out with Gary at the time and couldn't do that to him. I thought, if I were single, I don't think I would say yes to any of them..I feared what people might think of me..

Thing is PA... It is different for guys your age to date younger women, you wont get frowned upon as much as a woman would if she did the same..... Guys would likely cheer you on and call you a lucky git.. .If a woman at 33 went out with a 19 year old guy, she wouldn't get called LUCKY, she most likely would face a bit more abuse... Well, that's what it is like over here.. ...At 19 is not bad, at least she is an adult and old enough to vote...lol it's all up to you, in the end it's your life..

EDIT - You asked for us to state our religion...I think you already know what my answer to that would be :D

Edited by Beckys_Mom

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Posted (edited)

Biologically, an adult is a human being or other organism that is of reproductive age (sexual maturity).

But the things we need to look at, in a human context, are biological adulthood and legal adulthood.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adult :

'Biologically, an adult is a human being or other organism that is of reproductive age (sexual maturity).'

'Legally, adulthood means that one can engage in a contract.'

Now with humans, we are capable of sexual reproduction quite early. The major landmark of puberty for females is menarche, the onset of menstruation, which occurs on average between ages 12–13; for males, it is the first ejaculation, which occurs on average at age 13.

So we are sexually mature around that age, however psychologically adult development takes longer.

Yes some people mature more quickly, but we need blanket ages to protect those who are not psychologically developed enough.

Once above the age 'hurdle' - it's pretty much perfectly OK for anyone to be in a relationship - no matter the age gap (and in my opinion - no matter the sexual preference). If they are both legally an adult then they are good to go.

Edit: Bottom line: We can reproduce from a young age, but in modern society we are generally not psychologically developed enough to do so.

->Also I'm not religious at all :rofl:

Edited by Timonthy

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